Will the real Jack Sequiera please stand up

[BobRyan]

Jack Sequiera presents "some" of his controversial views - http://www.jacksequeira.org/personalbeliefs.htm

1. In that link - Jack states that he believes Christ took upon himself - (accepted) our sinful nature. I do not agree with him on that point.

2. Jack states that the scapegoat in the investigative judgment is about "assigning the guilt" for the origin of all sin, and that God has been assuming that guilt - in the sanctuary, until it is placed on the devil. I differ with him somewhat on this topic.

I view the Day of Atonement (I.J) process as objectively figuring out who is lost and who is saved for anyone who has even the most flimsy pretended claim to the blood of Christ. It then returns all the guilt of those who fail that test back out to the scapegoat. It also places "added guilt" on the devil for his part in tempting those who have been determined to be NOT of his own kingdom - to sin.

There is no "question" in the universe that Satan is the originator - cause for all sin for Angels and mankind. Yet each person must bear their own guilt for their own free will choices.

3. Jack likes to focus on the fact that Christ's incarnation, life, death, resurrection etc is the basis for salvation for the believer - yet consistently omits the fact that this is also true for all the world, all the wicked IF you are ignoring the choice of the person. (Which he is when he does this focus on the "objective" facts of the Gospel).

He does this to make it look like he is solving a problem for the saints who fear the I.J. (Which indeed he may be doing if someone does not admit that at Justification we are saved and accepted by God yet can be lost again as soon as we refuse to take up our cross as saved saints and follow Christ.).

4. Jack quotes from 1John 4 while ignoring 1John 2, and 1John 5 statements about what it means to be saved - whenever he is trying to create the view of "assurance". Yet at later points he will talk about the changed life by which he claims we are "BEING saved".

5. He also admits that the saints must actually cease to sin before the close of probation. I agree with him on that point.

What else is on his list?

In his own statements about his views of Ellen White, the significance of the "judgment of the living" he appears to believe it does not matter - and yet he claims that we must stop sinning entirely by the close of probation.

in Christ,

Bob

[Gibs]

I never had opportunity to hear Jack Sequiera speak on much but I do agree with him on one point you bring up Bob.

He was God's Son, very true, but He was also Mary's son born of a woman 4,000 aprox. yrs. after the fall and so she had our fallen nature and so would her son, he inherited it from her.

Yes He also had the Divine Nature Also as His Father was God. So in Him was the two natures mysteriously blended.

Sister White,

"Though He had no taint of sin upon His character, yet He condescended to connect our fallen human nature with His divinity. By thus taking humanity, He honored humanity. Having taken our fallen nature, he showed what it might become, by accepting the ample provision He has made for it, and by becoming partaker of the divine nature.--Letter 81, 1896. {3SM 134.2}

Yes this was the great plan, that we too could have His Divine nature imparted into us and then we too could overcome as He did.

Php 4:13 I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Twilight II]

I never had opportunity to hear Jack Sequiera speak on much but I do agree with him on one point you bring up Bob.

He was God's Son, very true, but He was also Mary's son born of a woman 4,000 aprox. yrs. after the fall and so she had our fallen nature and so would her son, he inherited it from her.

Yes He also had the Divine Nature Also as His Father was God. So in Him was the two natures mysteriously blended.

Sister White,

"Though He had no taint of sin upon His character, yet He condescended to connect our fallen human nature with His divinity. By thus taking humanity, He honored humanity. Having taken our fallen nature, he showed what it might become, by accepting the ample provision He has made for it, and by becoming partaker of the divine nature.--Letter 81, 1896. {3SM 134.2}

Yes this was the great plan, that we too could have His Divine nature imparted into us and then we too could overcome as He did.

Php 4:13 I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

John was quite clear on this point:

1Jo 3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.

[BobRyan]

Gibbs I agree that Christ took our fallen human nature (physically fallen) but not our sinful spiritual nature that is at war with the law of God and in harmony with Satan.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

For those who in years past have found themselves in agreement with Sequeira (so classical agreement with him -- in other words, after much exposure to his work) I have a question.

Look at this (though it may take some time).

[Guest]

Quote:

I agree that Christ took our fallen human nature (physically fallen) but not our sinful spiritual nature that is at war with the law of God and in harmony with Satan.

This is for you Bob, but others too of course.

[Gibs]

Yes Christ never fell to sin one time as Satan was hard on His case and if He had of, all would have been lost. But for sure He did stand in Adam's shoes and the liability was great we should know. Satan at least knew this was his only chance and he must not fail at bringing Him down if at all possible!

Christ Placed Feet in Adam's Steps.

--"What love! What amazing condescension! The King of glory proposed to humble Himself to fallen humanity! He would place His feet in Adam's steps. He would take man's fallen nature, and engage to cope with the strong foe who triumphed over Adam. He would overcome Satan, and in thus doing He would open the way for the redemption from the disgrace of Adam's failure and fall, of all those who would believe on Him (Redemption; or the Temptation of Christ", p. 15). {1BC 1085.3}

"Many claim that it was impossible for Christ to be overcome by temptation. Then He could not have been placed in Adam's position; He could not have gained the victory that Adam failed to gain. If we have in any sense a more trying conflict than had Christ, then He would not be able to succor us. But our Saviour took humanity, with all its liabilities. He took the nature of man, with the possibility of yielding to temptation. We have nothing to bear which He has not endured. . . . In man's behalf, Christ conquered by enduring the severest test. For our sake He exercised a self-control stronger than hunger or death".--The Desire of Ages, p. 117. {7ABC 451.3}

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Twilight II]

Yes Christ never fell to sin one time as Satan was hard on His case and if He had of, all would have been lost. But for sure He did stand in Adam's shoes and the liability was great we should know. Satan at least knew this was his only chance and he must not fail at bringing Him down if at all possible!

Christ Placed Feet in Adam's Steps.

--"What love! What amazing condescension! The King of glory proposed to humble Himself to fallen humanity! He would place His feet in Adam's steps. He would take man's fallen nature, and engage to cope with the strong foe who triumphed over Adam. He would overcome Satan, and in thus doing He would open the way for the redemption from the disgrace of Adam's failure and fall, of all those who would believe on Him (Redemption; or the Temptation of Christ", p. 15). {1BC 1085.3}

"Many claim that it was impossible for Christ to be overcome by temptation. Then He could not have been placed in Adam's position; He could not have gained the victory that Adam failed to gain. If we have in any sense a more trying conflict than had Christ, then He would not be able to succor us. But our Saviour took humanity, with all its liabilities. He took the nature of man, with the possibility of yielding to temptation. We have nothing to bear which He has not endured. . . . In man's behalf, Christ conquered by enduring the severest test. For our sake He exercised a self-control stronger than hunger or death".--The Desire of Ages, p. 117. {7ABC 451.3}

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

Notice, He was placed in Adams position.

Adam did not have a sinful nature (indwelling sin) when he fell.

Jesus had Adams moral nature, but also had a Fallen Body that suffered hunger, thirst etc, which placed Him at a disadvantage to Adam.

Jesus had to pass the test Adam passed.

That did not require Jesus to inherit indwelling sin from Adam.

[Twilight II]

The reason that people struggle with this, is because they pre-suppose that they have to find victory in their fallen nature.

This is incorrect.

We have to find victory by receiving our Born-again nature and by faith having our fallen nature crucified.

It is change of nature, not a improvement of nature that God wants to give us.

[Gerr]

[BobRyan]

[BobRyan]

Quote:

I agree that Christ took our fallen human nature (physically fallen) but not our sinful spiritual nature that is at war with the law of God and in harmony with Satan.

This is for you Bob, but others too of course.

[Gibs]

Back to Twilight

You must read again this quote,

Christ Placed Feet in Adam's Steps.

--"What love! What amazing condescension! The King of glory proposed to humble Himself to fallen humanity! He would place His feet in Adam's steps. He would take man's fallen nature, and engage to cope with the strong foe who triumphed over Adam. He would overcome Satan, and in thus doing He would open the way for the redemption from the disgrace of Adam's failure and fall, of all those who would believe on Him (Redemption; or the Temptation of Christ", p. 15). {1BC 1085.3}

No Jesus did not take the unfallen nature of Adam, but stepped in his shoes in his fallen state to vanquish Satan with the same power we can have.

Christ in you is the same power as He had with the Father in Him.

"Though He had no taint of sin upon His character, yet He condescended to connect our fallen human nature with His divinity. By thus taking humanity, He honored humanity. Having taken our fallen nature, He showed what it might become, by accepting the ample provision He has made for it, and by becoming partaker of the divine nature.--Special Instruction Relating to the Review and Herald Office, and the Work in Battle Creek, May 26, 1896, p. 13. {7ABC 453.6}

This great mystery Paul explains well, well known among the True Jews,

Col 1:26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:

Col 1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

Col 1:28 Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Twilight II]

Back to Twilight

You must read again this quote,

Christ Placed Feet in Adam's Steps.

--"What love! What amazing condescension! The King of glory proposed to humble Himself to fallen humanity! He would place His feet in Adam's steps. He would take man's fallen nature, and engage to cope with the strong foe who triumphed over Adam. He would overcome Satan, and in thus doing He would open the way for the redemption from the disgrace of Adam's failure and fall, of all those who would believe on Him (Redemption; or the Temptation of Christ", p. 15). {1BC 1085.3}

No Jesus did not take the unfallen nature of Adam, but stepped in his shoes in his fallen state to vanquish Satan with the same power we can have.

Christ in you is the same power as He had with the Father in Him.

"Though He had no taint of sin upon His character, yet He condescended to connect our fallen human nature with His divinity. By thus taking humanity, He honored humanity. Having taken our fallen nature, He showed what it might become, by accepting the ample provision He has made for it, and by becoming partaker of the divine nature.--Special Instruction Relating to the Review and Herald Office, and the Work in Battle Creek, May 26, 1896, p. 13. {7ABC 453.6}

This great mystery Paul explains well, well known among the True Jews,

Col 1:26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:

Col 1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

Col 1:28 Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

Your assumption is that when Ellen White states "Fallen Nature" or even her early use of "sinful nature" that she is referring to the idea that Jesus had indwelling sin in Him.

She is not referring to His moral nature, but His physical nature in these quotes. :-)

[Gibs]

No Twilight you are not seeing what I am getting at. He became one of us that He also could and was tempted in all points as we are, and we know that Satan made sure of that and yes no doubt more severely than any other man on earth. No He never did a sin, we can be sure, if He had've Satan would have won over Him.

We need to understand the fact that when we are TRULY converted we have died of the old sinful self and raised a new creature in Jesus Christ. Now with His Divine Nature in us we too can walk victorious over Satan.

He did overcome from where we must, the only difference being, He never committed a sin so He didn't need to be converted. But it is stated that He too learned Obedience.

Heb 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;

He is the "PERFECT" Lamb of God. It had to be one without any sin. No Angel even could suffice, it had to be one equal to the law it's self. But it was also needed that He would step in the shoes of the fallen Adam not the first. He must overcome from where we must once fully converted. Certainly we still have the fallen nature to deal with but His Divine Nature now imparted we now are as He as long as we don't resurrect self or the old man of sin.

God the Father was in Him, and He then in us is the equal of that. We may even have an advantage over what Christ did in that now Satan and his can see Christ dwelling within one and know they are defeated foes as long as Christ is not cast out. Yes they then in reality would have to overcome the One in you.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Twilight II]

No Twilight you are not seeing what I am getting at. He became one of us that He also could and was tempted in all points as we are, and we know that Satan made sure of that and yes no doubt more severely than any other man on earth. No He never did a sin, we can be sure, if He had've Satan would have won over Him.

We need to understand the fact that when we are TRULY converted we have died of the old sinful self and raised a new creature in Jesus Christ. Now with His Divine Nature in us we too can walk victorious over Satan.

He did overcome from where we must, the only difference being, He never committed a sin so He didn't need to be converted. But it is stated that He too learned Obedience.

Heb 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;

He is the "PERFECT" Lamb of God. It had to be one without any sin. No Angel even could suffice, it had to be one equal to the law it's self. But it was also needed that He would step in the shoes of the fallen Adam not the first. He must overcome from where we must once fully converted. Certainly we still have the fallen nature to deal with but His Divine Nature now imparted we now are as He as long as we don't resurrect self or the old man of sin.

God the Father was in Him, and He then in us is the equal of that. We may even have an advantage over what Christ did in that now Satan and his can see Christ dwelling within one and know they are defeated foes as long as Christ is not cast out. Yes they then in reality would have to overcome the One in you.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

Gibs, in your understanding, did Jesus have an inherent sinful nature?

[Gibs]

Twilight II,

On that question, what he did inherit was his mothers FALLEN nature and His Fathers DIVINE Nature. He did not have sinful flesh and no sin was ever found in Him.

Now EGW made this statement a few times and this the latest one I came upon.

"Clad in the vestments of humanity, the Son of God came down to the level of those he wished to save. In him was no guile or sinfulness; he was ever pure and undefiled; yet he took upon him our sinful nature. Clothing his divinity with humanity, that he might associate with fallen humanity, he sought to redeem for man that which by disobedience Adam had lost, for himself and for the world. In his own character Jesus manifested to the world the character of God; he pleased not himself, but went about doing good. His whole history, for more than thirty years, was of pure, disinterested benevolence. {RH, August 22, 1907 par. 1}

So for sure He knows how to succour us. The following verses I think help us to grasp what she meant.

Heb 2:16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

Heb 2:17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

Heb 2:18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[BobRyan]

Your assumption is that when Ellen White states "Fallen Nature" or even her early use of "sinful nature" that she is referring to the idea that Jesus had indwelling sin in Him.

She is not referring to His moral nature, but His physical nature in these quotes. :-)

[BobRyan]

The person that is born as a crack-baby - hooked on crack because his/her mother was addicted while pregnant - cannot argue "if Christ was not born as a crack-baby then he is not my example. He was not like me".

The person who after living as a drunk, living on the streets, addicted to alcohol and then turns to Christ for salvation cannot then argue "yes but Christ never had to overcome alcoholism - he is not my example".

Take any habit - any addiction, any form of depraved dependency that people form today and then imagine for a moment that all of them can now argue that Christ is not their example - since He did not have to overcome their specific form of depravity.

It simply does not work to claim that unless Christ had your depravity He cannot be your example - if that were the rule - then He would be no one's example.

in Christ,

Bob

[Robert]

made under the law

[Twilight II]

Twilight II,

On that question, what he did inherit was his mothers FALLEN nature and His Fathers DIVINE Nature. He did not have sinful flesh and no sin was ever found in Him.

Now EGW made this statement a few times and this the latest one I came upon.

"Clad in the vestments of humanity, the Son of God came down to the level of those he wished to save. In him was no guile or sinfulness; he was ever pure and undefiled; yet he took upon him our sinful nature. Clothing his divinity with humanity, that he might associate with fallen humanity, he sought to redeem for man that which by disobedience Adam had lost, for himself and for the world. In his own character Jesus manifested to the world the character of God; he pleased not himself, but went about doing good. His whole history, for more than thirty years, was of pure, disinterested benevolence. {RH, August 22, 1907 par. 1}

So for sure He knows how to succour us. The following verses I think help us to grasp what she meant.

Heb 2:16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

Heb 2:17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

Heb 2:18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

I am just trying to clarify your position brother. :-)

Was there any sinful tendency in Christ's flesh that Satan could appeal to?

[Twilight II]

The person that is born as a crack-baby - hooked on crack because his/her mother was addicted while pregnant - cannot argue "if Christ was not born as a crack-baby then he is not my example. He was not like me".

The person who after living as a drunk, living on the streets, addicted to alcohol and then turns to Christ for salvation cannot then argue "yes but Christ never had to overcome alcoholism - he is not my example".

Take any habit - any addiction, any form of depraved dependency that people form today and then imagine for a moment that all of them can now argue that Christ is not their example - since He did not have to overcome their specific form of depravity.

It simply does not work to claim that unless Christ had your depravity He cannot be your example - if that were the rule - then He would be no one's example.

in Christ,

Bob

Indeed, if you follow that argument to its logical conclusion, it does arrive at quite a logically absurd position. :-)

[Gerr]

Quote:

So then when we read -

In Him was no guile or sinfulness; He was ever pure and undefiled; yet He took upon Him our sinful nature” (RH Dec. 15, 1896).

Ellen White never said of Christ "by nature His heart was evil".

If by "sinful nature" in the above statement a fallen moral nature, with every DNA in His body being imprinted with sin, then the above two statements are contradictory.

Mt & Lk are very clear. Jesus was conceived of the HS. God, the Word made flesh per John. The "Word made flesh" could not possibly have a nature that already had a craving for sin, otherwise He too would have needed a savior. That is why He is the second Adam.

Jesus had to have the moral nature of Adam BEFORE the fall, but the body of the fallen children of Adam, i.e. He did not have the stature, the strength, endurance, smarts, etc., of Adam.

[Gerr]

On that question, what he did inherit was his mothers FALLEN nature and His Fathers DIVINE Nature. He did not have sinful flesh and no sin was ever found in Him.

I sure would like to hear your explanation how He inherited "His mother's FALLEN nature" and yet not have a sinful flesh.

The Bible has this to say about the human sinful nature.

ESV | ‎Je 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it?

ESV | ‎Ps 51:5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me.

ESV | ‎Is 1:5 The whole head is sick, and the whole heart faint. ‎6 From the sole of the foot even to the head, there is no soundness in it, but bruises and sores and raw wounds; they are not pressed out or bound up or softened with oil.

[Twilight II]

Jesus had to have the moral nature of Adam BEFORE the fall, but the body of the fallen children of Adam, i.e. He did not have the stature, the strength, endurance, smarts, etc., of Adam.

Agreed.

Or it could be expressed that He had the spiritual and moral nature of Adam before the fall...

Possibly.