Will the real Jack Sequiera please stand up

[Gibs]

Originally Posted By: Gibs

Twilight II,

On that question, what he did inherit was his mothers FALLEN nature and His Fathers DIVINE Nature. He did not have sinful flesh and no sin was ever found in Him.

Now EGW made this statement a few times and this the latest one I came upon.

"Clad in the vestments of humanity, the Son of God came down to the level of those he wished to save. In him was no guile or sinfulness; he was ever pure and undefiled; yet he took upon him our sinful nature. Clothing his divinity with humanity, that he might associate with fallen humanity, he sought to redeem for man that which by disobedience Adam had lost, for himself and for the world. In his own character Jesus manifested to the world the character of God; he pleased not himself, but went about doing good. His whole history, for more than thirty years, was of pure, disinterested benevolence. {RH, August 22, 1907 par. 1}

So for sure He knows how to succour us. The following verses I think help us to grasp what she meant.

Heb 2:16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

Heb 2:17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

Heb 2:18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

I am just trying to clarify your position brother. :-)

Was there any sinful tendency in Christ's flesh that Satan could appeal to?

Paul answers the question here and we must know Christ did not have sinful flesh although it is clear He did take upon Him our sinful nature.

Christ showed us how we must do it, we must live by the Spirit, "Christ in you" and not by the flesh but by the Spirit as He did, He lived in obedience to the Father's Spirit in Him and we are to do likewise if we are to live victorious over Satan and his.

Carefully read and catch Paul here.

Ro 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Ro 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Ro 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

Ro 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

Ro 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Ro 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Ro 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Twilight II]

I think you need to clarify what you mean by "sinful flesh" and "sinful nature" Gibs.

I am not understanding your distinctions. :-)

[joeb]

Back to Twilight

You must read again this quote,

Christ Placed Feet in Adam's Steps.

--"What love! What amazing condescension! The King of glory proposed to humble Himself to fallen humanity! He would place His feet in Adam's steps. He would take man's fallen nature, and engage to cope with the strong foe who triumphed over Adam. He would overcome Satan, and in thus doing He would open the way for the redemption from the disgrace of Adam's failure and fall, of all those who would believe on Him (Redemption; or the Temptation of Christ", p. 15). {1BC 1085.3}

No Jesus did not take the unfallen nature of Adam, but stepped in his shoes in his fallen state to vanquish Satan with the same power we can have.

Christ in you is the same power as He had with the Father in Him.

"Though He had no taint of sin upon His character, yet He condescended to connect our fallen human nature with His divinity. By thus taking humanity, He honored humanity. Having taken our fallen nature, He showed what it might become, by accepting the ample provision He has made for it, and by becoming partaker of the divine nature.--Special Instruction Relating to the Review and Herald Office, and the Work in Battle Creek, May 26, 1896, p. 13. {7ABC 453.6}

This great mystery Paul explains well, well known among the True Jews,

Col 1:26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:

Col 1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

Col 1:28 Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Gibs]

Joeb, Twilight 11, If you have a problem with what EGW stated and Paul as I posted, then I don't see how I could make it clearer. The answers are there!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[joeb]

Joeb, Twilight 11, If you have a problem with what EGW stated and Paul as I posted, then I don't see how I could make it clearer. The answers are there!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Robert]

You guys are making this too difficult.

[Twilight II]

Originally Posted By: Gibs

Joeb, Twilight 11, If you have a problem with what EGW stated and Paul as I posted, then I don't see how I could make it clearer. The answers are there!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

Hey Gibs,

I don't have a problem with what Ellen White or Paul has to say on the subject. She makes things very plain in what I quoted from Manuscript Releases 13.

Maybe it's my perception of what you're trying to say as I don't see a reconciliation of everything Ellen White has to say on this subject in your position.

I believed the same thing I percieve you to be saying until I did a lot of research and reconciled all the information I could find in both the Bible and the SOP. I thought anyone who said Christ didn't have our fallen spiritual nature was preaching heresy before that.

Could you please show me how you reconcile your position with the sentences I've bolded in the quotes below, and my statement following the quotes?

Quote:

Christ conquered as the sinless, unfallen, perfect Man. As the Messiah He has won the victory over the temptations of the enemy, making it possible for us to overcome as He overcame. We are to overcome in every encounter with the enemy. We are to be victors by becoming partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. Each victory that He gained in His humanity makes it possible for us, through receiving and believing in Him, to gain the victory. “As many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God” (John 1:12). Each victory that He gained in humanity secures for us its genuine fruits. Each assault of Satan overcome marks the occasion of a victory for humanity.... {The Upward Look 17.3}

Quote:

Be careful, exceedingly careful as to how you dwell upon the human nature of Christ. Do not set Him before the people as a man with the propensities of sin. He is the second Adam. The first Adam was created a pure, sinless being, without a taint of sin upon him; he was in the image of God. He could fall, and he did fall through transgressing. Because of sin, his posterity was born with inherent propensities of disobedience. But Jesus Christ was the only begotten Son of God. He took upon Himself human nature, and was tempted in all points as human nature is tempted. He could have sinned; He could have fallen, but not for one moment was there in Him an evil propensity. He was assailed with temptations in the wilderness, as Adam was assailed with temptations in Eden. {13MR 18.1}

Note that Christ was assailed with temptation in the same spiritual state as Adam had when he was tempted in Eden. Adam fell to the temptations. Christ didn't.

Sounds like we made a similar journey on this subject. :-)

[Gibs]

It was absolutely essential that Christ be as one of us from where we are, if he wasn't then he couldn't have been tempted in all points as we.

Heb 2:17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

Heb 2:18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

He is able to succour us because He knows our frailties, yes He did take upon Him our sinful nature, like Paul says "in the likeness of sinful flesh". How could He be our example if He had an advantage we can't have? But the fact is, He gives to each and every one of us His power to overcome and be victorious also.

Col 1:26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:

Col 1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

Col 1:28 Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

Ro 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Ro 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Ro 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

Ro 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

Ro 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Ro 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Ro 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so

be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Sister White,

"Clad in the vestments of humanity, the Son of God came down to the level of those he wished to save. In him was no guile or sinfulness; he was ever pure and undefiled; yet he took upon him our sinful nature. Clothing his divinity with humanity, that he might associate with fallen humanity, he sought to regain for man that which, by disobedience, Adam had lost for himself and for the world. In his own character he displayed to the world the character of God. He pleased not himself, but went about doing good. His whole history, for more than thirty years, was one of pure, disinterested benevolence. By his words, his influence, and his example, he made men feel that it was possible for them to return to their loyalty and be reinstated in God's favor. He led them to see that if they repented, if their characters were transformed after the divine similitude, they would win immortality". {RH, December 15, 1896 par. 7}

Christ took no advantage to overcome Satan but what is ours when He dwells within us.

"It should be to us a cause of continual gratitude and rejoicing that Jesus knows our weakness and is acquainted with our temptations. We are too much in the habit of thinking that the Son of God was a being so entirely exalted above us that it is an impossibility for him to enter into our trials and temptations, and that he can have no sympathy with us in our weakness and frailties. This is because we do not take in the fact of his oneness with humanity. He took upon him the likeness of sinful flesh, and was made in all points like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God. He has engaged himself to save every son and daughter of Adam who will consent to be saved in God's appointed way. {ST, May 16, 1895 par.7}

All need to know the liability of Christ falling was great. Do we not realize Satan knew it well too. One thing Satan didn't come to reckon with is that if and when the The Divine Nature, Spirit dwells within and one will only walk after the Spirit He will not fall to Satan. Yes Satan found that out in Christ and many more since. It is a fully dedicated walk that only the few will do.

"One wrong trait of character, one sinful desire cherished, will eventually neutralize all the power of the gospel.... The pains of duty and the pleasures of sin are the cords with which Satan binds men in his snares. Those who would rather die than perform a wrong act are the only ones who will be found faithful". {Mar 82.4}

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Robert]

You guys are making this too difficult.

Romans 6:6 "For we (i.e., we Christians) know that our old self [our life from Adam) was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with....

You see the law demands the death of the sinner. So at the incarnation God mysteriously combined Christ's Deity with OUR fallen humanity.

That's all you need to know.

[BobRyan]

The points may be summarized as follows.

The case is made that -

1. Satan argues that man cannot keep God's Law - and God is unjust to demand obedience from Mankind.

2. Christ came in the "likeness of sinful flesh" to condemn sin in the flesh.

3. If Christ failed to reach humanity where we are - he would fail to prove the point - and could not be our example.

4. Christ's purpose included showing mankind how to perfectly obey God.

(not sure if there is more along that line).

The sinless nature of Christ argument responds this way (with exact quotes for each from what Ellen White wrote and from the Bible).

1. In all that - Christ did not have our passions.

2. In all that - Christ was not altogether depraved such as we are.

3. In all that - Christ came in the sinless nature from which Adam fell

4. In all that - Christ was not by nature - in league with Satan - as we are by nature.

5. In all that - Christ's nature did not include our inclination to disobedience.

6. In all that - Christ's did not have our proclivity to rebel against God.

7. Christ had no "Savior" to offer him the Gospel - He could not appeal to someone else to free him of a supposed sinful nature.

8. Christ did not come to prove that apart from a Savior and the Gospel - man can be perfect.

--. As soon as you argue that Christ must have all of mankind's moral corruption and depravity to be our Savior and show how to overcome it - then the crack-baby scenario demonstrates that there is no one for whom Christ could actually be an example.

So he took on our weakness and fallen nature - but not the corruption and depravity and inclinations and passions of our sinful nature that is in harmony with Satan and opposed to God.

[Gustave]

Everyone here has totally missed the point in that it would have been impossible for Christ to fail....

...Simply because God ( Father, Son & Holy Spirit ) said He wouldn't fail.

...If God knows the end from the beginning and told us explicitly what the end was going to be.

...Then what room is there for a hypothetical speculation that God actually might not have known the end from the beginning?

God became man without ceasing to be God, this is the basic definition of God the Son after Incarnation...

...How this was possible is beyond our ability to understand.

...It is the mystery of our Faith.

Any teaching which suggests God's own purpose which was executed by "God alone" could have failed...

...Has extended worship to something other than the God of the Bible.

...It's the adoption of an Arian creature christ which was / is God only in a conditional sense.

Christ had "every" weakness of our frail bodies, He was subject to injury, pain, sickness, thirst, hunger, and death....

...This is where the similiarity terminated, He was made "like us" ( took on our Nature ).

...He was not "US".

[Gibs]

Well to you all, I find it is all spelled out so simply and easy to understand and most are making a mountain out of it and it is not even a mole hill.

He took our place as one of us to vanquish Satan and He did it. Yes it was a great liability and if you don't understand that you will never see the truth of it.

Paul laid the truth of it, EGW laid the truth of it in perfect agreeance and I've posted both.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[joeb]

Hey Gibs,

I appreciate the tone of your reply, but it has one major flaw. You didn't answer my question. Please answer the question I asked you.

[joeb]

BobRyan,

You and I are very close on this. I think the only thing I would differ with you on is how you state that Christ took our "fallen nature". I would state that as "fallen physical nature". All the moral issues you raised I agree with. Christ could not have had those attributes for then He would have been in conflict with His Father's nature and at odds with Him. He had no internal impulse to sin just as Adam had none before he fell. He is the second Adam and thus He had to pass over the same ground Adam did to redeem us.

Adam is the father of our fallen race. It was his mistake that sentenced us to a fallen moral nature and death, and it is his mistake Christ had to correct. He is our kinsman with an unfallen spiritual nature just as surely as Adam was our kinsman both before, and after, he fell into sin.

I think having good understanding the concept of gaal(kinsman redeemer) is at the root of a correct understanding of this subject.

[joeb]

Originally Posted By: joeb

Note that Christ was assailed with temptation in the same spiritual state as Adam had when he was tempted in Eden. Adam fell to the temptations. Christ didn't.

When Adam was "assailed with temptation" he was in the "spiritual state" of free-will disobedience; When Christ was assailed by the tempter, He was is the spiritual state of surrendered to God's will obedience!

In other words, you believe God created Adam as a sinful being. At least that's what I see you as saying.

[Robert]

As fully man Christ the Man Jesus the Son of Man died, as fully GOD the Man Jesus the Son of Man the Son of God died.

No, what died was our humanity that Christ as God assumed. Deity cannot die...it's impossible.

[Robert]

So he took on our weakness and fallen nature - but not the corruption and depravity and inclinations and passions of our sinful nature that is in harmony with Satan and opposed to God.

Christ assumed YOUR humanity because it stood condemned under the law. He assumed YOU and in Him YOU died the 2nd death.

See Romans 6:6;7:4

[Robert]

Jack:

One of the great challenges that faces the Christian Church today is how can God justify the ungodly [Romans 4:5] and still maintain His integrity to His holy law which condemns sinners [Galatians 3:10]? Because no law will allow an innocent person to die for the crime of a guilty one many sincere people, especially Islamic scholars, accuse Christianity of being an unethical religion. Their main argument is that the doctrine of substitution, as taught by Christianity, is based on a faulty Roman law which allowed an innocent man, Christ, to die in place of the guilty human race. Hence they accuse the Christians religion of “legal fiction.”

It is true that even the law of God clearly prohibits an innocent man dying for the guilty — “the soul that sins, it must die” [Deuteronomy 24:16; Ezekiel 18:1-20 emphasis supplied]. What than is the Biblical solution to the problem of “legal fiction.” The answer is the in Christ motif or idea, the central theme of the apostle Paul’s theology.

There is a key phrase that runs through Paul’s epistles. If you were to take this phrase out, there would be very little left of Paul’s exposition of the gospel. This recurring phrase is the expression in Christ or in Christ Jesus. This phrase is sometimes expressed by other similar phrases, such as, in Him, by Him, through Him, in the Beloved, together with Him, etc. These are all synonymous terms implying the in Christ motif.

The truth behind this phrase was first introduced by Christ Himself, when He told His disciples to “abide in me.” These are the under girding words of the gospel. And if we don’t understand what the New Testament means by this expression in Christ, we will never be able to fully understand the incredible good news of the gospel.

There is nothing we have as Christians except we have it in Christ. Everything we enjoy and hope for, as believers, i.e., the peace through justification by faith, the Holy Spirit power to live holy lives through the experience of sanctification, and the blessed hope of glorification, is ours always in Christ. Outside of Him we have nothing but sin, condemnation, and death.

The expression in Christ, however, is a rather difficult phrase to understand. Just as “you must be born again” was mind-boggling to Nicodemus; so likewise, the concept of in Christ is a very difficult idea for us to understand. This is especially true of the western mind. How can I, as an individual, be in someone else? Worse still, how could I, born in the twentieth century, have been in Christ who lived almost 2000 years ago? This makes absolutely no sense to our western way of thinking. As a result we miss the full blessing that God has prepared for us in Christ.

What does Scripture mean when it tells us that we were together with Christ in His death, burial, and resurrection, and now, are sitting with Him in heavenly places [Ephesians 2:5,6]? Because we cannot fathom these facts we tend to ignore or skim over them. Yet the whole understanding of the gospel hinges on our understanding the significance of these two vital words in Christ.

The in Christ motif or idea is based on the biblical idea of solidarity or corporate oneness. Therefore, if we are to come to grips with this phrase we must first understand what the Bible has to say about solidarity. Two New Testament texts help us understand Biblical solidarity. The first is Romans 9:12, a quotation taken from Genesis 25:23 — the twins, Esau and Jacob, represent two nations, not individuals. The second is Hebrews 7:7-l — Levi paid tithe to Melchizedek in Abraham, since he was “in the loins” of his great grandfather Abraham when he paid tithe to Melchizedek.

Because the Bible teaches that the human race is the multiplication of Adam’s life the fundamental truth of Scripture is:

God created all men in one man — i.e., in Adam [Acts 17:26].

Satan ruined all men in one man — i.e., in Adam [Romans 5:12, 18a].

God redeemed all men in one man — i.e., in Christ [Titus 2:11; 1 John 2:2].

In order to save fallen humanity, God had to first qualify Christ to be our substitute so that He could live and die in our place. God did this by uniting Christ’s divinity to our corporate humanity, that needed redeeming, in the incarnation. This is the in Christ motif [see 1 Corinthians 1:30]. Through this union Christ became the second or last Adam (the word adam in Hebrew has a collective significance and means mankind).

As our substitute and representative Christ had to meet the full demands of the law in order to save fallen humanity. By His perfect obedience Christ met the positive demands of the law, and by His death He met the justice of the law. Thus, in this doing and dying He legally justified all men and became humanity’s Savior [Romans 5:18; Ephesians 2:5, 6]. Just as in Adam all die, likewise Scripture declares that in Christ all shall live [1 Corinthians 15:21, 22].

Because God created man with a free will, Christ’s identity with us has to be reciprocal to make the legal justification He obtained for all men effective individually. This is what justification by faith is all about. Faith is the channel or instrument by which the believer accepts his or her united with Christ and Him crucified (Galatians 2:19, 20). This two-sided union — You in Christ and Christ in you — is what constitutes true Christianity and man’s only hope of salvation: standing legally just before God’s holy law [Romans 10:4].

[Gibs]

Remember all here who find Christ did not take on Him our fallen nature, you need to remember, God cannot be tempted.

So I have one here for you from Sister White and she lays the scripture with it if you can't reconcile with her, I ask you was the seed of Abraham before the fall? No of course not!

"For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham. Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren. Hebrews 2:16, 17. {LHU 76.1}

Was the human nature of the Son of Mary changed into the divine nature of the Son of God? No; the two natures were mysteriously blended in one person--the man Christ Jesus. In Him dwelt all the fullness of the Godhead bodily. When Christ was crucified, it was His human nature that died. Deity did not sink and die; that would have been impossible. Christ, the sinless One, will save every son and daughter of Adam who accepts the salvation proffered them, consenting to become the children of God. The Saviour has purchased the fallen race with His own blood. {LHU 76.2}

Our likeness after the fall for sure, or one has to also make of none effect the Word of God also.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: Gibs

I never had opportunity to hear Jack Sequiera speak on much but I do agree with him on one point you bring up Bob.

He was God's Son, very true, but He was also Mary's son born of a woman 4,000 aprox. yrs. after the fall and so she had our fallen nature and so would her son, he inherited it from her.

Yes He also had the Divine Nature Also as His Father was God. So in Him was the two natures mysteriously blended.

Sister White,

"Though He had no taint of sin upon His character, yet He condescended to connect our fallen human nature with His divinity. By thus taking humanity, He honored humanity. Having taken our fallen nature, he showed what it might become, by accepting the ample provision He has made for it, and by becoming partaker of the divine nature.--Letter 81, 1896. {3SM 134.2}

Yes this was the great plan, that we too could have His Divine nature imparted into us and then we too could overcome as He did.

Php 4:13 I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

John was quite clear on this point:

1Jo 3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.

This statement

"Though He had no taint of sin upon His character, yet He condescended to connect our fallen human nature with His divinity. By thus taking humanity, He honored humanity. Having taken our fallen nature, he showed what it might become, by accepting the ample provision He has made for it, and by becoming partaker of the divine nature.--Letter 81, 1896. {3SM 134.2}

cannot be controverted.

Similar ones can be found in Early Writings, 150,152.

sky

[skyblue888]

Put simply, "Jesus lived a sinless life in sinful flesh." This is how it was stated in Bible Readings for the Home before the change.

Sinful flesh means that in His human nature Jesus felt the drawings of the flesh just as we do but He never yielded. That's the difference.

Therefore I agree with Gibs

sky

[Gibs]

Another thing to remember is the first Adam perfect in all ways inherited the Garden of Eden, the wonderful paradise,

The Second Adam, Jesus Christ came as a babe in a lowly manger to dwell in "booths" as I believe it was on or near the first day of the feast of tabernacles. This earth was His and yet He had no place to claim as His own, He dwelled in "booths" the whole time here with us as one of us, - - Heb 2:16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

Yes He came in our likeness after the fall, for "he took on Him the seed of Abraham!"

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[skyblue888]

and that means that "The enticements which Christ resisted were those that we find it so difficult to withstand. They were urged upon Him in a much greater degree as His character is superior to ours." D.A.116.

sky

[Robert]

And who so by the buy, said, God, or, “Deity cannot die...it's impossible”? Where have you found it, WRITTEN? Not in GOD’S, Word.

Ellen White, but...it's clear from the Bible. Death is a byproduct of sin. God is immortal! Mortality is linked to sin as immortality is linked to righteousness. If God dies He is sinful.

[Robert]

...Christ was made sin for us means ...He was treated like the Law treats transgressions of itself....

Conversations you'll never here because no law can ethically condemn the innocent with the crimes of the guilty:

A police officer pulls me over. I say, "what's the problem, officer?" He says, "I'm giving you a ticket!" I ask, "for what?" He says, "for that guy that passed you going 90 mph in a 35 mph zone!" And I reply, "but I didn't break the posted speed limit - how can you charge me with his crime?" "Hmmm?", says the officer - "you have a point".