Robert Posted January 5, 2013 Posted January 5, 2013 So if all that is true, why would I ever convert to Christianity? I can keep going as I am, and your God is still going to save me - right? You need to accept Christ's righteousness to move from under law to under grace.
M. T. Cross Posted January 5, 2013 Posted January 5, 2013 But if I am not a Christian, I am not under that law to begin with.
skyblue888 Posted January 5, 2013 Posted January 5, 2013 It is a peculiar people that know they can in Christ and His Merits become overcomers! "There is nothing so offensive to God as sin. Instead of making void the law of God by continuing in sin, every truly converted soul will be walking in the path of humble obedience to all of God's commandments. They will search the Scriptures that they might know the truth. Who hath bewitched the impenitent, the transgressor, that sin is chosen rather than obedience? It is the power of Satan that came to Adam and Eve in Eden, the deceiving, bewitching power of the fallen angel. . . . {UL 209.5} How few talk about this great sacrifice of the life of Jesus to save the guilty sinner! If we appreciated this love manifested by God for our souls we would be elevated by taking hold of the merits of Jesus Christ, for without the righteousness of Christ man could not give to God perfect obedience. . . . {UL 209.6} He condescended to this great sacrifice, not that sin in man should become a virtue, not that sin might be made righteousness. He took the steps that man is required to take in conversion. He went forward in baptism, and when He came up out of the water He kneeled down and offered up such a prayer to His Father as Heaven had never heard before. --Manuscript 25, July 14, 1887, "A Peculiar People." {UL 209.7} 1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. This is making melody to God! sky :) "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.
Robert Posted January 6, 2013 Posted January 6, 2013 But if I am not a Christian, I am not under that law to begin with. Who told you that? All men are under law and therefore the curse until they accept Christ.
M. T. Cross Posted January 6, 2013 Posted January 6, 2013 Originally Posted By: EmptyCross But if I am not a Christian, I am not under that law to begin with. Who told you that? All men are under law and therefore the curse until they accept Christ. Thats only true if your God is the one and only true God. So far no-one has even come close to convincing me of that.
M. T. Cross Posted January 6, 2013 Posted January 6, 2013 Originally Posted By: EmptyCross But if I am not a Christian, I am not under that law to begin with. ... you hope! "The Law is for the transgressors" and you're one of the transgressors. Be that as it may, it is written, ""For as many as have sinned WITHOUT law shall also PERISH WITHOUT law." Sorry for you ... Sanctimonious much?
Moderators Gerr Posted January 6, 2013 Moderators Posted January 6, 2013 Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo Is this not living for the flesh? It's the flesh in control, but not condoned. A Christian, even if he is struggling with sin must never say sin is okay. Sin is a killer...it's a deceiver. God hates sin, but loves the sinner (as you know). Oh, so I can keep doing what the flesh dictates as long as I don't condone it?
Moderators Gerr Posted January 6, 2013 Moderators Posted January 6, 2013 Originally Posted By: Robert That's why legalists HATE Jack Sequeira! If those who are law oriented want to throw stones they need to dig up Paul's bones and stone him. Why? Jack got it from Paul and Paul was hand picked by Christ Himself! The fact is, Mr. Traditional SDA, we believers are NOT under law. The law can't touch us. We are righteous "in Christ" alone. Does that mean I can have sex outside marriage; drink beer; kill; murder, etc and the law can't touch me? Yes! That's what it means. Now the law of the land may touch me, but God's law won't touch me. Why? As far as it is concerned I died when Christ died. Now, the law can't condemn me, but as a lifestyle I won't be able to conscientiously condone these sins. Why? My mind (heart) is no longer in harmony with my sinful nature. The two are opposed to each other because of the new birth. But right now I don't want to write about "works of faith" because that's not my point here. My point is that Christ has legally delivered the human race from under law. Those who have accepted Christ have moved from death to life and the law can no longer demand of them obedience in return for life. So if all that is true, why would I ever convert to Christianity? I can keep going as I am, and your God is still going to save me - right? Isn't that a sick theology, EC? You're toast if as a non-believer you fornicate, steal, murder, cheat, etc., etc. But accept Christ as your Savior, and you can do the very same things without penalty?
M. T. Cross Posted January 6, 2013 Posted January 6, 2013 Isn't that a sick theology, EC? You're toast if as a non-believer you fornicate, steal, murder, cheat, etc., etc. But accept Christ as your Savior, and you can do the very same things without penalty? Yeah, I don't get that one. I understand that you and the guy beside you in church might not agree whether something is a sin. If he feels it is and you feel it isn't - you do not share the same conviction and I don't think it is a sin for you then. But the theology Robert is throwing out is - accept Jesus and carry on like you always did. No worries, no cares. But if you have not accepted Jesus - well welcome to the fire pit for the very same things. More over this is what I personally am getting from this thread and from the other one regarding Mr. Sequiera. My personal belief system has some pretty strong moral and ethical standards. These standards would keep me from doing pretty much everything listed in Roberts statement. ( I have a drink every now and then so the beer one is the exception ) I respect the teachings of Jesus, I think at the least he was a very wise teacher and at the most a deity. But because I also acknowledge other deity I am lost, dead, roast beef. No matter how I carried and conducted my life, no matter if I did so because I simply think its the right way to live life. But....... stand up and claim Jesus as your personal saviour, you are free to be a dirt bag cause Jesus died for you and you accept his death. Honestly I think if Jesus see's that kind of approach, he must feel used and despair at how badly some of his so called followers missed the point. If Roberts theory is true.......... he is welcome to his god cause I sure would want NOTHING to do with him.
Robert Posted January 6, 2013 Posted January 6, 2013 So far no-one has even come close to convincing me of that. It doesn't matter, you are under the curse awaiting judgment day. Here's Paul: Romans 2:12 "All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be condemned by the law." You see there are two groups of people. 1] Those do not know the law and 2] those who claim heaven through it. Both groups are under the curse and need the righteousness of Christ.
Robert Posted January 6, 2013 Posted January 6, 2013 ....HIS 'obedience' WITHOUT "our cooperation" by which we are justified and that saved us. Yes, He obeyed in our corporate humanity, but His justification of you needs your cooperation - it's called faith. Hence justification by faith.
Robert Posted January 6, 2013 Posted January 6, 2013 Oh, so I can keep doing what the flesh dictates as long as I don't condone it? The question is wrong. You are doing what the flesh dictates! Are you living Christ's life? No? Then the flesh is getting it's way. Do you want to be under law, Gerry?
Robert Posted January 6, 2013 Posted January 6, 2013 I understand that you and the guy beside you in church might not agree whether something is a sin. Let me make it easy for you: Anything OUTSIDE "agape" is sin, period! You can say "baloney", but that's the summation of the spirit of God's law. Anything that you do that benefits you is not agape love. You can do the right thing outwardly, but the act will always involve a selfish motive. Without Christ you can do nothing truly good. The act will always be polluted with self.
Robert Posted January 6, 2013 Posted January 6, 2013 But Christ did not die like men from sin.... Christ, as God, took our humanity into Himself. That humanity died because it was tainted by sin. Now, it's true that Christ never allowed that humanity to get its way, but nevertheless that humanity stood condemned because it was indwelt by iniquity. Therefore His assumed humanity had to die. His humanity was our humanity. Since He died, all died in Him.
Robert Posted January 6, 2013 Posted January 6, 2013 Now here's what Roman teaches: A man is saved partially by Christ's righteousness and partially by his own righteousness. In other words I do my best and Christ makes up for the rest. Well, that's bull dung! No where do I find that the law gives out credit for partial obedience. The law demands perfect, unblemished compliance. The law demand pure agape love, nothing that smacks of self. If I get partial credit, well, that smacks of self. Then I can glory, not in the cross of Christ, but my own performance. This is the essence of Babylon. And yes Babylon is well and alive in the Seventh-day Adventist Church. The difference is the SDA church is not Babylon. The shaking, caused by the message of JBF, will shake out the Babylonians. These apostates will join Babylon, who has not yet fallen from grace.
Robert Posted January 6, 2013 Posted January 6, 2013 And yes Babylon is well and alive in the Seventh-day Adventist Church. The difference is the SDA church is not Babylon. The shaking, caused by the message of JBF, will shake out the Babylonians. These apostates will join Babylon, who has not yet fallen from grace. Did you get this? 1] Many within the SDA denomination are in agreement with Roman on salvation (faith/works). 2] But that doesn't mean that the SDA church is Babylon. 3] The reason the SDA church is not Babylon is that it is currently Laodicea. 4] It will be the SDA church that preaches the pure gospel to all the world. 5] When Babylon rejects the gospel then it will be said, "Babylon is fallen". 6] Those who remain in Babylon will fall from grace and come back under the curse of the law, which is God abandonment. 7] Babylon then attacks the new formed remnant. 8] This group (God's remnant), under persecution, will reflect the agape love of God. Hence "here are they that keep the commandments of God". Not by remotely keeping rules outwardly, but because they are resting in Christ's finished work and now the Spirit of God works through them to perfectly reflect God's self-emptying agape love to a dying world. It is Christ's bride fully mature.
Moderators Gerr Posted January 6, 2013 Moderators Posted January 6, 2013 Quote: Did I use the word "toast"? In case you didn't notice, there were no quotation marks on 'toast'.
Robert Posted January 6, 2013 Posted January 6, 2013 Quote: Did I use the word "toast"? In case you didn't notice, there were no quotation marks on 'toast'. Okay...my mistake.
Moderators Gerr Posted January 6, 2013 Moderators Posted January 6, 2013 Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo Does that mean I can have sex outside marriage; drink beer; kill; murder, etc and the law can't touch me? Yes! That's what it means. Quote all of me, not just selected parts.... If you go back to my original post, I quoted you more extensively than what you are attributing me here.
Robert Posted January 6, 2013 Posted January 6, 2013 Okay, I'll give you credit. Lucky I'm not the law.
Moderators Gerr Posted January 6, 2013 Moderators Posted January 6, 2013 Now here's what Roman teaches: A man is saved partially by Christ's righteousness and partially by his own righteousness. In other words I do my best and Christ makes up for the rest. Well, that's bull dung! I agree that we are saved by Christ's righteousness ALONE. Quote: No where do I find that the law gives out credit for partial obedience. The law demands perfect, unblemished compliance. The law demand pure agape love, nothing that smacks of self. If I get partial credit, well, that smacks of self. Then I can glory, not in the cross of Christ, but my own performance. YES! According to Romans, grace gives FULL credit to agape obedience even though it falls short of God's ultimate mark. But this credit is NOT for salvation as you seem to intimate. ESV | ‎Ro 13:10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law. Loving obedience is the FRUIT of salvation and NOT the basis for it. The Bible is clear - we are saved by grace and judged by works.
Robert Posted January 6, 2013 Posted January 6, 2013 The Bible is clear - we are saved by grace and judged by works. We are judged because there is an accuser. Otherwise God knows those who are His. Here's the issue with works: Because man by nature is “shapen in iniquity,” all the righteousness produced by him through his own efforts is like filthy rags before God, because it is polluted with self-love. According to Zech. 3:3, 4, “filthy garments” are equated with iniquity. In contrast to these filthy garments of ours (self-righteousness), the white raiment of Christ (His righteousness) is offered to the Laodicean church so that they may be truly clothed, and “the shame of [their] nakedness do not appear” before the judgment seat of God [Revelation 3:18; 10:3-4]. Self-righteous acts camouflaged or disguised in the name of Christ are exposed in the judgment and clearly identified as works of iniquity (i.e., works motivated by self-love). All Christians must consider this text seriously. Do our works originate from Christ and therefore motivated by agape, or are they the “fair shew in the flesh” [Galatians 6:12]? Are our works the result of a genuine relationship with Christ (i.e, works of faith) or are we working in His name but we really don’t know Him? [see also Luke 13:25-28.] [JS]
Robert Posted January 6, 2013 Posted January 6, 2013 Gerry, Everyone produces good works. The question behind those good works is what's the motive? God is not judging you on your law performance, to see how good you are! No, He wants to use your works to show your faith, not your righteousness. Let's say you consistently helped the elderly. And you did it free of charge. This work will come up in the judgment. In the judgment your mindset...your character...you motive will be revealed. Let's say you did all this so the older folks would remember you in their wills. The act was good, outwardly, but inwardly your motive was selfish. It wasn't actuated from agape. So Christ wasn't present. He never knew you. Hence your faith was a sham and He cannot defend you against the accusations of Satan! Do you see the issues?
M. T. Cross Posted January 6, 2013 Posted January 6, 2013 I agree Robert, using your example of helping old people. If you are doing it simply hoping that they will leave you in their wills, you are kind of a dirtbag. What if you are doing it simply because you know they need the help? Because you feel for them and want to make their later years easier?
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