Will the real Jack Sequiera please stand up

[bonnie]

Again, you didn't answer the question. How many commands in "love your neighbor as yourself"? I mean surely you can count to at least three?

All the Law and the Prophets hang on these TWO commandments.”

Again,I will go with what the bible states.

You want to parse Love your neighbor as yourself" go for it.

[Robert]

Mark 12:31 The second is this: "Love your neighbor as yourself"

How many commands are there, Bonnie?

[Robert]

All the Law and the Prophets hang on these TWO commandments.”

1] Love God

&

2] love your neighbor

That's two, but just looking at the command to love your neighbor, how many commands?

Here it is: "Love your neighbor as yourself"

[Robert]

I'll tell you what it doesn't say:

Love your neighbor and love yourself.

That's two commands.

[bonnie]

Mark 12:31 The second is this: "Love your neighbor as yourself"

How many commands are there, Bonnie?

I think you should keep asking and then answer yourself as you typically do.

I do find it rather humorous that the non answer champion keeps demanding answers that have already been given.

I know that you think those that do not agree with you have never read the particular bible texts you hang all your convictions on. That's okay,arrogance usually covers a host of deficits.

For me,my convictions do not and will not hang on cherry picked verses. I take it as a whole. I can't pick and choose by feeling a sense of relief when I can convince myself "I don't have to" Especially when growing up I never looked at my faith as a "have to or don't have to" That I believe is used by those looking for a way to make themselves feel better about their own lifestyle

[Robert]

I'll tell you what it doesn't say:

Love your neighbor and love yourself.

That's two commands.

"love your neighbor as yourself"

There's only one command there! You already, by birth, love yourself. That's why you have the things you have. You've spent a lifetime acquiring things. Why? You love yourself.

So take that self-love and redirect it from yourself to others. Then instead of you getting the goodies, your neighbors will.

If you don't believe me we can look at Matt chapter 19

[bonnie]

I'll tell you what it doesn't say:

Love your neighbor and love yourself.

That's two commands.

Thank you Robert,I knew you would come thru.Make an implication

or phrase a point of view in a dishonest way and then claim it false.Glad to see you are consistent if nothing else

[Robert]

I think you should keep asking and then answer yourself as you typically do.I do find it rather humorous that the non answer champion keeps demanding answers that have already been given.I know that you think those that do not agree with you have never read the particular bible texts you hang all your convictions on. That's okay,arrogance usually covers a host of deficits. For me,my convictions do not and will not hang on cherry picked verses. I take it as a whole. I can't pick and choose by feeling a sense of relief when I can convince myself "I don't have to" Especially when growing up I never looked at my faith as a "have to or don't have to" That I believe is used by those looking for a way to make themselves feel better about their own lifestyle

Not the answer to my question....

[bonnie]

"love your neighbor as yourself"

There's only one command there! You already, by birth, love yourself. That's why you have the things you have. You've spent a lifetime acquiring things. Why? You love yourself.

So take that self-love and redirect it from yourself to others. Then instead of you getting the goodies, your neighbors will.

If you don't believe me we can look at Matt chapter 19

Tel me Robert,How are you doing with that? What kind of vehicle are you driving now. What kind of goodies have you amassed for yourself? How are your neighbors fairing with all the goodies you have amassed for them?

Read Matt 19 and tell me how you are doing and how you have enriched your neighbors

[Robert]

Thank you Robert

Glad I could help you count.

[bonnie]

Not the answer to my question....

You still asking? You have a ways to go yet. Years people have asked you and you have deflected the question.

[Robert]

Tel me Robert,How are you doing with that?

No, I'm a sinner....I've been delivered from under the law. Are you still under law?

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

Not the answer to my question....

You still asking? You have a ways to go yet. Years people have asked you and you have deflected the question.

Not an answer. Come on, 1,2,3,4??? Maybe pi?

[bonnie]

Glad I could help you count.

You have actually helped me in ways that I am sure you never intended.

It makes me more grateful than ever that my parents did not have a twisted,convoluted viewpoint on helping others.

They never worried about the "I have to" I don't have to"

If they saw someone in need they did what they could.Not as a means of eternal life thru works or Hey God,Look at me, I did but remember I didn't have to"

They didn't expect payback,recognition or anything else and tried to raise us the same. I do really feel sorry for those so petty that they have to dismiss,condemn and judge others that are more giving and generous themselves.

But obviously we do have those that elevate them,selves in that manner.Pity

[bonnie]

Not an answer. Come on, 1,2,3,4??? Maybe pi?

Get over yourself Robert. Personally I think it interesting to see you continue to demand answers,while always refusing to give in return

But that type of reasoning has been typical

[bonnie]

No, I'm a sinner....I've been delivered from under the law. Are you still under law?

I am trying very hard to not answer you in the manner I think is justified.

[Robert]

Read Matt 19 and tell me how you are doing and how you have enriched your neighbors

Look how Jesus defines "love your neighbor as yourself"

Jesus to someone who claimed to keep the law:

Matt 19:28 “‘You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, 19 honor your father and mother,’ and ‘love your neighbor as yourself.’"

Braggingly the man says:

20 “All these I have kept,” the young man said. “What do I lack?”

21 Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor"

This defines what it means to love your neighbor as yourself.

BTW, this guy kept his wealth. Why? He loved himself!

[M. T. Cross]

Originally Posted By: bonnie

Tel me Robert,How are you doing with that?

No, I'm a sinner....I've been delivered from under the law. Are you still under law?

I suppose among other things that allows one to do, it excuses them from basic politeness? It allows one to be rude, condescending, evasive and judgmental?

How does that show any of that precious "agape" you keep talking about?

I would direct those that are free from the law to at least try to have some virtue.

Here are 9 of them! Glad to help.

Courage

Truth

Honour

Fidelity

Discipline

Hospitality

Self Reliance

Industriousness

Perseverance

[Robert]

I am trying very hard to not answer you in the manner I think is justified.

But that still doesn't answer another question: Are you under law?

[Robert]

I suppose among other things that allows one to do, it excuses them from basic politeness? It allows one to be rude, condescending, evasive and judgmental?

No, the law condemns all sin, but especially self-love, self-interest and self-seeking. Hence, by the works of the no one will be justified before God. You, sir, need Christ's righteousness or do you wish to remain under the curse?

[Robert]

Courage

Truth

Honour

Fidelity

Discipline

Hospitality

Self Reliance

Industriousness

Perseverance

Matt 23:4 They tie up heavy burdens and lay them on men’s shoulders, but they themselves are unwilling to move them with so much as a finger. 5 But they do all their deeds to be noticed by men....

In other words for self-interest.

Without Christ everything you do is based on your love of self. That's all you can produce.....

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: bonnie

I am trying very hard to not answer you in the manner I think is justified.

But that still doesn't answer another question: Are you under law?

Gal 3:22 But the Scripture declares that the whole world is a prisoner of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe.

23 Before this faith (Jesus) came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until the faith (Jesus) should be revealed. 24 So the law was put in charge to lead (point) us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. 25 Now that the faith (Jesus) has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law.

Why did Christ come to deliver us from under the law (you shall love your neighbor as yourself)?

Answer:

Romans 3:9 What shall we conclude then? Are we (Jews) any better? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin (our bent to self). 10 As it is written:

“There is no one righteous, not even one"

So "yes" Bonnie, you better not be under the law.

[M. T. Cross]

Originally Posted By: EmptyCross

I suppose among other things that allows one to do, it excuses them from basic politeness? It allows one to be rude, condescending, evasive and judgmental?

No, the law condemns all sin, but especially self-love, self-interest and self-seeking. Hence, by the works of the no one will be justified before God. You, sir, need Christ's righteousness or do you wish to remain under the curse?

Oh right,this curse. The one that allows for me to generally do all the things I find to be wrong, but I will be forgiven if I just repent and say I am sorry. Each. Time. I. Do. Them.

How bout, I just skip that part and live in a manner of good conduct, with kindness and generosity, with honour, simply because that is the way that I know is the right way to live. If I live that way, and it turns out that your God is the only God and he does not want me.............. oh well.

[M. T. Cross]

Originally Posted By: EmptyCross

Courage

Truth

Honour

Fidelity

Discipline

Hospitality

Self Reliance

Industriousness

Perseverance

Matt 23:4 They tie up heavy burdens and lay them on men’s shoulders, but they themselves are unwilling to move them with so much as a finger. 5 But they do all their deeds to be noticed by men....

In other words for self-interest.

Without Christ everything you do is based on your love of self. That's all you can produce.....

I would try to give a well thought out response Robert - but no matter how many times I read your post in relation to what you quoted from me - I can make to connection to what you are trying to say.

The two just don't gel.

[bonnie]

But that still doesn't answer another question: Are you under law?

You want an answer,I will give you the courtesy you refuse others.

You come across as very similar to the rich young ruler in your own way.In your own way you are as legalistic as those you so self righteously condemn.

Frankly if any of my four sons exhibited the behavior and mindset you do I would be very disappointed. In them and in my husband and myself for raising such biblical opportunists and self centered men.We made our share of mistakes no doubt and they certainly aren't perfect,but they are christian men and they understand what that word means. I don't think you do except as you can use it as a hammer on others.

When you flashed a picture of your very expensive vehicle in a similar discussion and declared "I don't have to,I am not under the law" you explained all that was needed about your claim to being a christian.

I can't tell you the heartache I would have felt knowing that one of my sons was such a self centered man. While they would not qualify as christian by your standards they could never have excused their lack of helping others with such a self serving statement.You are right in one sense.They do feel they need to help,they are compelled by their religious convictions.Not as a means of gaining eternal life but because they are not liars and the claim to being christian is real. A christian by the very act of proclaiming that will help those around them.It goes with the territory. My parents always said,"If you are a christian,you never will have to say a word,it will show,a christian cannot help but show it.He does not show it by saying "I don't have to"

We are all sinners,but not all revel in that fact as you seem to. To you any act any word is not good enough to measure up.Your right in that we can never measure up to the goodness of Christ. In your world you delight in the image of God declaring all filthy,worthless wretches so why bother.I will claim to love the Lord and I am home free.

I don't picture a God like that but it serves your purpose well and relieves you of any other action. As you have said you could be committing adultery and many other blatant deliberate sins and be saved as long as you love the Lord.

I don't understand why anyone uses your "You have to or I don't have to" concerning their religious beliefs.Either way it is warped and twisted.One is as wrong as the other.

As I do not cherry pick bible texts and do my best to read what I can that pertains to a certain topic,my understanding is far different than yours. The God you exhibit and describe is one I do not recognize. I do believe the ten commandments applies to our lives today. They were not made void and God in his infinite wisdom knew that none could be perfect as he is perfect and provided a means to salvation. Not a free pass in "I love the Lord" I don't have to" I can commit adultery and be saved.To me you make a mockery out of who God is and the sacrifice of His Son.

I am very grateful and admit to being somewhat mystified in the christian men our sons grew into. I am very grateful that their time is not spent in condemning others while absolving their own self centered and self righteous behavior.They know they are responsible only for their own means,what they do with it and how they treat others.

They know they are sinners but do not revel in that fact. They know they are not perfect or good as compared to God, but they know they have the ultimate value to God and are not worthless filthy scum.