Robert Posted January 6, 2013 Posted January 6, 2013 Romans 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the works of the law. You see "works of the law" are works done in order to secure your salvation. Such works are a denial that you have salvation by Christ's doing & dying. They are works of unbelief. Further more these works are always polluted with self-interests. Go to Matt 23:5 "all their works they do to be seen by men." In other words such do the works for a reward. When it's done with God in mind it's always so they can earn heaven. When done for men it's for gain...to be noticed...for money...etc. These are works of the law.
Robert Posted January 6, 2013 Posted January 6, 2013 What if you are doing it simply because you know they need the help? Because you feel for them and want to make their later years easier? Nothing in it for you? Nothing at all? How about the praise of others as part of your motive? You see agape love does nothing so it comes back to self. There's no self in agape.
Robert Posted January 6, 2013 Posted January 6, 2013 Romans 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the works of the law. You see "works of the law" are works done in order to secure your salvation. Such works are a denial that you have salvation by Christ's doing & dying. They are works of unbelief. Further more these works are always polluted with self-interests. Go to Matt 23:5 "all their works they do to be seen by men." In other words such do the works for a reward. When it's done with God in mind it's always so they can earn heaven. When done for men it's for gain...to be noticed...for money...etc. These are works of the law. Now James gives two examples of works of faith: james 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works (works of faith, not works of law) when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”[g] And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. 25 Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way? You see Abraham did not really believe God when He promised him a child through his wife Sarah. That's where Ishmael came from. Many years later Abraham learned to take God at His promise. So now Abraham's faith had matured to where he was willing to kill his son (Issac) because he believed God would have to raise Issac up. Why? Because God promised Abraham that through Issac the coming Messiah would come. If he killed Issac God would have to raise him from the dead. Now he took God at His word. So the work was he was willing to kill Issac. This proved his faith was mature. His motive was right, even though technically he was breaking the commandment "you shall not kill"!
Gibs Posted January 6, 2013 Posted January 6, 2013 It is the works of Love that pleases God. Love, full true love is the answer, obedience then is the norm of happily being of and for Him and our fellow man as ourselves. 1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. A Freeman In Jesus Christ
Robert Posted January 6, 2013 Posted January 6, 2013 It is the works of Love that pleases God. Sure, and works of the law do not....This is not to say that God doesn't love Pharisees, He does, but that they place themselves outside His justification because they are denying Christ's righteousness.
M. T. Cross Posted January 6, 2013 Posted January 6, 2013 Originally Posted By: EmptyCross What if you are doing it simply because you know they need the help? Because you feel for them and want to make their later years easier? Nothing in it for you? Nothing at all? How about the praise of others as part of your motive? You see agape loves does nothing so it comes back to self. There's no self in agape. What if you do good deeds that no-one will ever know you did? You did them cause you saw a need, no-one was aware you did them so there is no praise, no reward at all.
Robert Posted January 6, 2013 Posted January 6, 2013 What if you do good deeds that no-one will ever know you did? Like send a check to someone in need without my address or any knowledge that is was me?
M. T. Cross Posted January 6, 2013 Posted January 6, 2013 Originally Posted By: EmptyCross What if you do good deeds that no-one will ever know you did? Like send a check to someone in need without my address or any knowledge that is was me? Well sending cash would do the job better cause with a cheque there are ways to find out who it came from. But fine - thats a decent example.
bonnie Posted January 6, 2013 Posted January 6, 2013 Well sending cash would do the job better cause with a cheque there are ways to find out who it came from. But fine - thats a decent example. The problem for some is they cannot conceive of others helping just because there is a need.There has to be some motive behind it,maybe because that is an excuse they use for not helping. I don't have to and besides..... It is not always possible to help someone anonymously but that seems to be what is required. You understand the concept of helping someone just because you see a need.You don't want a pat on the back,recognition,or praise.One thing you have to be careful of tho is not to feel a since of happiness at being able to help another.That means it is the motive for doing so in the first place. For those that believe the bible it says,"God loves a cheerful giver' For some that means you are "self seeking" Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman
M. T. Cross Posted January 6, 2013 Posted January 6, 2013 Yup, you are right Bonnie. Some would twist that happy feeling you get after doing good as being self seeking. It does not matter that it is a by product as opposed to the original motivation...... Of course I have never gotten an answer on how one should feel about themselves...
bonnie Posted January 6, 2013 Posted January 6, 2013 Yup, you are right Bonnie. Some would twist that happy feeling you get after doing good as being self seeking. It does not matter that it is a by product as opposed to the original motivation...... Of course I have never gotten an answer on how one should feel about themselves... I don't recall how long you have been part of the forum,but that answer has been given more than once. You are a rotten,wretched,filthy,self seeking wretch."Compared to Christ" That is of course true,at least from my perspective and we should never lose sight of that. But I don't believe Christ is standing over us saying,"So you think that is the right thing to do,you rotten,wretched,filthy,self seeking wretch.Nothing you do will ever be good enough. The last part is true,nothing you do will ever be good enough,but imagine saying that to you spouse every morning as she makes your breakfast or does any of the hundreds of small acts she does for you.Of course you remind her as a faithful husband to remember "You don't have to be faithful if you choose not to? Can you imagine the damage done to a child? God does not place impossible you can't "win if you do and can't win if you don't" Of course there are those that believe they win by not doing. Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman
Robert Posted January 6, 2013 Posted January 6, 2013 The problem for some is they cannot conceive of others helping just because there is a need. Without Christ you can do nothing good, period! Your motive will contain self-interests.
bonnie Posted January 6, 2013 Posted January 6, 2013 I have an elderly neighbor that I have somehow "inherited responsibility for" I am happy(oops that word) to do it except for the fact she is very difficult to deal with.She is a private person and can resent intrusion. I can't help her anonymously obviously. She has run into physical difficulties at times without readily available help because no one knew. I have to invent ways to check on her.I am sure she understands what I am doing but it makes her feel not so dependent this way. I do feel better when I know she is safe,at least for the present. That is of course a sin. She knows it is me so I must be doing it for recognition. A sin. Of course the other option is to say "To bad,I am not under the law and I don't have to" possibly letting her lay on the floor after a fall Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman
Robert Posted January 6, 2013 Posted January 6, 2013 Of course I have never gotten an answer on how one should feel about themselves... Just the fact you have that need (how to feel) means you are bent to yourself. Agape doesn't have self-concerns in it....Get it?
bonnie Posted January 6, 2013 Posted January 6, 2013 Without Christ you can do nothing good, period! Your motive will contain self-interests. The problem with that statement is it has to be as you claim to believe PERIOD! Robert is not the first and last word of understanding on scripture,no matter how much you think you are. Keep looking for reasons "You don't have to" I confess,I have to.A claim to be a christian, if a true conviction compels you to do that,regardless of your perceived motives of others. Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman
Robert Posted January 6, 2013 Posted January 6, 2013 I do feel better when I know she is safe, at least for the present. That is of course a sin. "You will have that love which seeks not her own, but another's wealth." [DA 439] Knowing she's safe isn't the same as living for her wealth. You have prospered because you lived for you. That's self-seeking. So enough with the self-righteous comments. You need Christ's righteousness.
Robert Posted January 6, 2013 Posted January 6, 2013 The problem with that statement is it has to be as you claim to believe PERIOD! No, we can twist it to mean I can do good things without Christ. Let's see what Jesus said, not Bonnie. Jesus has the last word: John 15:5 (NKJV) I (Christ) am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. Combine this with: Matthew 19:17 :No one is good but One, that is, God" Or how about Romans 3:12 "There is none who does good, no, not one" So your version of good and God's are two different things.
Robert Posted January 6, 2013 Posted January 6, 2013 So your version of good and God's are two different things. Paul says that “as touching the law”—as far as outward acts were concerned—he was “blameless”, but when the spiritual character of the law was discerned he saw himself a sinner. Judged by a human standard, he had abstained from sin, but when he looked into the depths of God’s law, and saw himself as God saw him, he bowed in humiliation, and confessed his guilt" [EGW] What you seem to be doing is getting your version of what is "good" from "a human standard". That doesn't make it. There's only one way to be saved: See your need of Christ's righteousness and accept that. You are not measuring up and under God's law (not man's standard) and outside Christ you must die. Do you understand that?
bonnie Posted January 6, 2013 Posted January 6, 2013 "You will have that love which seeks not her own, but another's wealth." [DA 439] As I don't have a clue as to her wealth and she lives a very low key life,I probably will not benefit to much.She does have two daughters and a son so doubt I am in the running for any wealth,nor has it even been a thought as to what "she may give me".I don't want anything from her.I suspect those are motives you have when you help someone. I haven't prospered in any way,other than being relieved when I know she is alright.I know that is a sin in your world.I am truly thankful a world I don't inhabit. Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman
Robert Posted January 6, 2013 Posted January 6, 2013 As I don't have a clue as to her wealth and she lives a very low key life, I probably will not benefit to much. No, Bonnie. If you are filled with agape (as you seem to be claiming) without Christ then Ellen White says "You will have that love which seeks not her own, but another's wealth." In other words your motive will be exclusively for her welfare (wealth) and not your own wealth. That's what "seeks not her own" means.
bonnie Posted January 6, 2013 Posted January 6, 2013 What you seem to be doing is getting your version of what is "good" from "a human standard". That doesn't make it. There's only one way to be saved: See your need of Christ's righteousness and accept that. You are not measuring up and under God's law (not man's standard) and outside Christ you must die. Do you understand that? See your need of Christ's righteousness and accept that. No one denies this You are not measuring up and under God's law (not man's standard) and outside Christ you must die. Do you understand that? Absolutely nothing or anything can help you measure up.You are the one that sees everyone and anything they do as claiming or trying to measure up. Using that as an excuse that "I don't have to" If you believe as you claim you do,"You will have to"you will not be able to prevent it.Of course for you,what you accuse others of is an excuse for "I don't have to" Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman
bonnie Posted January 6, 2013 Posted January 6, 2013 Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman
M. T. Cross Posted January 6, 2013 Posted January 6, 2013 Originally Posted By: EmptyCross Of course I have never gotten an answer on how one should feel about themselves... Just the fact you have that need (how to feel) means you are bent to yourself. Agape doesn't have self-concerns in it....Get it? Still not a straight answer Rob. If I have this agape love: Can I feel happy? Can I feel sad? Can I feel anything?
Robert Posted January 6, 2013 Posted January 6, 2013 Using that as an excuse that "I don't have to" What, be good? I can't be good. I can only rest in Christ finished work. Now He can do some good through me, but that doesn't contribute to my standing in Him.
M. T. Cross Posted January 6, 2013 Posted January 6, 2013 Originally Posted By: EmptyCross Yup, you are right Bonnie. Some would twist that happy feeling you get after doing good as being self seeking. It does not matter that it is a by product as opposed to the original motivation...... Of course I have never gotten an answer on how one should feel about themselves... I don't recall how long you have been part of the forum,but that answer has been given more than once. You are a rotten,wretched,filthy,self seeking wretch."Compared to Christ" That is of course true,at least from my perspective and we should never lose sight of that. But I don't believe Christ is standing over us saying,"So you think that is the right thing to do,you rotten,wretched,filthy,self seeking wretch.Nothing you do will ever be good enough. The last part is true,nothing you do will ever be good enough,but imagine saying that to you spouse every morning as she makes your breakfast or does any of the hundreds of small acts she does for you.Of course you remind her as a faithful husband to remember "You don't have to be faithful if you choose not to? Can you imagine the damage done to a child? God does not place impossible you can't "win if you do and can't win if you don't" Of course there are those that believe they win by not doing. Oh I was raised with that Bonnie - I know exactly what it does to a child
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