A Question of Balance

[JoeMo]

I have been a member here on CA for about 1.25 years now. Many (if not most) threads here in the Theological Townhall eventually evolve (or devolve) into some form of debate on "saved by works" or "saved by grace" (example "saved from our sin" or "saved in our sin"). I confess that I have been guilty of exclusively professing the "saved by grace" message.

Others with whom I have the most "lively" discussions almost exclusively take the opposite side of that position.

While responding to a post on another thread last night, it struck me that most of those discussions lack an important element - BALANCE.

Several years ago, Ty Gibson told me that grace and works work like two oars in a rowboat. If you concentrate on one oar and ignore the other one, you end up rowing in circles; and you make no progress towards your destination. We must take advantage of both oars to progress to our destination (The Kingdom of Heaven). Upon remembering this (or did the Holy Spirit put it in my head?) last night, I am persuaded to take a more balanced view of the Gospel; and not be so quick to dismiss views which are more conservative than my own.

What do you think?

[debbym]

the words "lean not unto thine own understanding come to mind.

we are what we are, human beings whose minds have been operating all of our lives to understand the world, ourselves, others, and God.

but we still cannot by searching find out God. no one has it right without being taught of God.

we still cannot rely on our own understanding to have God and His mercy, his grace, and His ways figured out. There is always more to it than what we bring to it.

healthy humility serves to gain balance.

when Jesus spoke to the paralytic who had laid there 30 years, the man didn't just lay there and say i am so glad Jesus spoke to me and loves me. He made an effort to do what Christ commanded, and when he stood up took up his bed and leaped away... i am sure he knows it is not something he could have done without Jesus empowering. And he glorified God.

"we are more the conquerors through Him who loved us." We are eyewitnesses of his glory. Jesus loves his Father and desires to see his Father glorified, may we so live that the Father is glorified by how we live.

There i believe will be balance.

[Ted Oplinger]

I have been a member here on CA for about 1.25 years now. Many (if not most) threads here in the Theological Townhall eventually evolve (or devolve) into some form of debate on "saved by works" or "saved by grace" (example "saved from our sin" or "saved in our sin"). I confess that I have been guilty of exclusively professing the "saved by grace" message.

Others with whom I have the most "lively" discussions almost exclusively take the opposite side of that position.

While responding to a post on another thread last night, it struck me that most of those discussions lack an important element - BALANCE.

Several years ago, Ty Gibson told me that grace and works work like two oars in a rowboat. If you concentrate on one oar and ignore the other one, you end up rowing in circles; and you make no progress towards your destination. We must take advantage of both oars to progress to our destination (The Kingdom of Heaven). Upon remembering this (or did the Holy Spirit put it in my head?) last night, I am persuaded to take a more balanced view of the Gospel; and not be so quick to dismiss views which are more conservative than my own.

What do you think?

I am also familiar with that illustration. It takes both, but so often, people think speaking of one side means the speaker is automatically opposing the other. I get that kind of "advice" whenever I do a sermon on one of several issues. That last time I spoke on the grace/faith aspect, I had people lining up afterwards wondering why I said nothing about works. A month later, in highlighting the importance of works, people lined up to wonder why I was so opposed to faith/grace. Funny thing is, one of those was the same gentleman both times.

The same happens when the subjects are free will/assurance of salvation and "God provides for our sinless walking/God provides for our human weakness". Emphasizing one side brings out the opposition from the other.

The absolute worst I have seen here is on the latter subject - there is no attempt to even consider one side of that subject plausible by some posters here, even though it is quite Biblically declared.

Blessings,

[debbym]

i have recently experienced this in a conversation here. and others.

you cannot discuss one side of most anything without eliciting incredible argument and kind of a controlling response.

This debate like response seems to be purposed to make sure people are getting it straight. also the antagonist seems to be justifying their views and making judgements on people based on them.

it is like a pounce on 'em, bag 'em, and string 'em up response. all the while they are so correct, and others have it so wrong.

as much as we think we know, we just do not have all the bigger picture.

Jesus rocked the crowds over and over showing them the power of bias and prejudice to misrepresent God.

i just don't think anyone has it right, only Jesus, and when we learn of it, it is still challenging to us because of our fallen nature. None doeth good, no not one.

[JoeMo]

Deb and Ted,

Thanks so much for your meaningful input. We all need spiritual balance; and we've experienced the imbalance. How do we solve the conumdrum? Or is it unsolveable; and those of us who recognize the need for balance just give "grace" to the ones who don't recognize the need for balance?

I think a start would be to never engage the antagonists?

[Ted Oplinger]

Deb and Ted,

Thanks so much for your meaningful input. We all need spiritual balance; and we've experienced the imbalance. How do we solve the conumdrum? Or is it unsolveable; and those of us who recognize the need for balance just give "grace" to the ones who don't recognize the need for balance?

I think a start would be to never engage the antagonists?

Dunno.

Antagonist? Protagonist? Who is who? There are times every one of us has been in the role of the antagonist here...whether we want to admit it or not. Most of us view ourselves more as the "protagonist" rather than the "antagonist" - again, whether we like to admit that or not.

In all, though, I don't think the issue is unsolvable, and there is certainly the need for grace toward those wrapped up in their own position.

I guess my question would be, how to filter the antagonist from the genuine desire to discuss rationally a single facet from a particular multi-faceted issue? And how do we back off once we find WE are the antagonist? I have found it is all too easy to stake a claim in a subject as well - and defend it quite vigorously...falling into the same trap as the one I perceive to be "the antagonist".

For my part, I've begun to resurrect a practice now of plainly stating what the topic is, then offering to discuss the antagonist's perspective in a dedicated thread - particularly if it is a brand new poster. Sometimes it works, sometimes...not so much.

Sometimes, it helps me to step back out of a thread, and see if the tenor of my response is fostering - or hindering - the calm, rationale discussion. I've needed to do that a couple of times on the current "Trinity" thread (which is devolving down to the "no one has refuted X, Y, and Z" boasts and demands for explanations that have been posted multiple times) - and have currently backed out for the time being there.

Blessings,

[joeb]

I have been a member here on CA for about 1.25 years now. Many (if not most) threads here in the Theological Townhall eventually evolve (or devolve) into some form of debate on "saved by works" or "saved by grace" (example "saved from our sin" or "saved in our sin"). I confess that I have been guilty of exclusively professing the "saved by grace" message.

Others with whom I have the most "lively" discussions almost exclusively take the opposite side of that position.

While responding to a post on another thread last night, it struck me that most of those discussions lack an important element - BALANCE.

Several years ago, Ty Gibson told me that grace and works work like two oars in a rowboat. If you concentrate on one oar and ignore the other one, you end up rowing in circles; and you make no progress towards your destination. We must take advantage of both oars to progress to our destination (The Kingdom of Heaven). Upon remembering this (or did the Holy Spirit put it in my head?) last night, I am persuaded to take a more balanced view of the Gospel; and not be so quick to dismiss views which are more conservative than my own.

What do you think?

JoeMo,

I can't tell you how happy I am to read this post. It's an answer to prayer. My cup runneth over with joy.

[Woody]

Excellent Post JoeMo. I am most pleased to read it.

As for me --- I have chosen to emphasize the grace part because I see so much damage

being done by the conservative end of things. And our church has a history of abuse

from that end of the perspective. I feel we have much work to do in order to undo

that damage. And I don't see a further emphasis on works to be helpful.

I believe that when one focuses on Grace that the works will automatically come.

The more you fully bathe in Grace --- the more works will come.

And you are right - we DO need both.

As for me - I will remain a vocal liberal living a conservative life.

[ClubV12]

I have chosen to emphasize the spirit of prophecy because I see so much damage being done by those who mistake false sympathy and sentalmentalism for the counterfits they call "patience and brotherly love".

The Father has given us the gift of prophecy to guide, instruct, counsel and reprove His Church. It is a primary method used by the Holy Spirit to teach those truths and principles the Church needs at this time. By making it of little or no affect, which is common in our day, it is impossible to find or even recognize balance.

[JoeMo]

Thanks Woody and joeb. I am blessed by your feedback.

Club, you exemplify my concerns. If you can't even recognize what balance is, it is because you are closing your mind to it. No one on this thread has even mentioned a "problem" with EGW or the SoP. True, we may have differing opinions on the level of infallibility that the White Estate and the church has given the SoP; but I think every one of us recognizes EGW's gift of prophecy. I confess that I have debated the subject with you before; yet I just taught a Sabbath School classed based mostly on her fantastic insight contained in "Prophets and Kings". Please keep this post on the subject of balance; and don't try to turn it into a debate on the SoP.

Ted, you raise very legitimate concerns. Who is the protagonist; and who is the antagonist? I too have played both roles (I may have played it in my feedback above to Club).

I pray, Father, that you would protect this thread from the "devil"-ution that ruins so many threads here! Thank you!

[ClubV12]

JoeMo, you exemplify my concerns. If I say I love the law, as I've said, I am immediately ridiculed as a legalist. If I even MENTION my love for the Spirit of Prophecy the immediate response is I'm "unbalanced". Stay on topic. Lets not argue.

Pot, kettle, black. I simply expressed my appreciation for the gift of prophecy because I believe it is THEE path to balance.

And your having a fit and calling ME unbalanced!!! I rest my case, the point has been proven!

Very few actually deny the gift, instead they do as you have suggested JoeMo.

“The very last deception of Satan will be to make of none effect the testimony of the Spirit of God.” Selected Messages, volume 1, page 48.

In doing so, it is IMPOSSIBLE to find balance!

[JoeMo]

One of the challenges in obtaining balance is thinking in the right direction. I once heard a child say, while watching a windmill spin, "Daddy , look how much wind the windmill makes! "How funny!" I thought. "The child doesn't realize the wind makes the windmill turn, not the other way around. How many of us are tempted to think "I must do good things in order for the Lord to show me grace and mercy"; when actually we do good things because the Lord shows us grace and mercy. We are a little more complicated than a windmill - the windmill has no choice but to turn when the wind blows on it. We have a choice to "turn" (repent, to good works) when the wind of the Holy Spirit blows on us. Thinking rightly, we will respond to the Holy Spirit wind" and do the works God has prepared for us.

Many times we begin a task; and ask God to bless what we are doing. Could this also be thinking backwards in this situation? Maybe we should look for what God is blessing, and do that. It worked for Jesus.

"Very truly I tell you, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does." (John 5:19)

[phkrause]

[JoeMo]

joeb,

What I posted is how what God has placed on my heart for a while now. It just took me a while to put it into words.

Another place we need balance is in our view of the end times. So often, end-time presentations leave us full of fear. God didn't give us these prophecies to scare us - He gave them to us to provide information; so that when we see these things happen, we may know that He is God; and He is in control.

Many of the "stories" in the OT are models for the end times. Look at some of the "stories" in Daniel.

King Nebbie has a dream, under threat of death, Daniel comes forth and correctly interprets the dream. He is rewarded by being appointed a chief in Babylon. Government takes faithful captive, threatens them with death, God shows His power threatens them with death, God shows His power through the through the faithful, faithfule find favor and rule.

Same with the story of the 3 worthies. King Nebbie builds an idol, forces people to worship it. 3 faithful refuse; and are thrown into the fire. Fire does not even singe them. King Nebbie calls them out of the fire and promotes them to positions of leadership; while proclaiming the omnipotence of their God. Same story - Government takes faithful captive, faithful, faithful find favor and rule.

Models for end time? One world government takes faithful captive and threatens them with death. faithful remain faithful to the end. God shows His power through them; and they find favor with the true King, and reign with Him forever!

Will some faithful die? Yes! The story of Jesus tells us that. Faithful man is taken captive by "government" (this time the establishment church), is killed for His faith, is resurrected in power and glory,resulting in establishment of Christianity. Jesus won the victory through death! Some of us will share that type of victory; and will be resurrected to reign with Him forever!

Folks, with the right balance in the message, this is good news; not bad news!

[debbym]

I have been targeted by you as possibly being sentimental in loving.

i think this may be a communication style difference club.

i will not try to manipulate or control others. This does not result in growth from my perspective. this does not mean i am not holding my boundaries and holding a high standard.

i have no reputation in my life for being people pleasing and failing to hold standards high.

but when i talk about the need for tact and the character of Christ in being patient and respectful and kind... this seems to leave you feeling the need to get right in there and do it right, to say it right, and push things right through to there correct standing. you seem to feel you have to hold the standard high because everyone is letting it trail in the dust.

but if i was in prison ministries, and i am dealing with individuals who have lost their sense of boundaries, and have lost all structure in their lives. structure building is high priority. For them reinforcing structure is desirable. And hammering out the standard is welcome, and appreciated, and wanted.

but if i am relating to a group of ladies who feel violated if someone does not return their warm good morning in a gracious way, because they are so sensitive to boundaries and relationships, i am going to deal with them very differently.

so in different lives at different times, and under different circumstances, different approaches are needed and called for.

If i have a drunk trying to take over song service, i will use a different approach than if i have a senior with alzheimer's confused and trying to take the mic during song service, and different if i have a fanatical extremist trying to take over the sermon from the pew. And that is ok. does not mean my theology is bad.

[Gail]

Quote:

I have been targeted by you as possibly being sentimental in loving.

Guilty- join the club!

Quote:

If i have a drunk trying to take over song service, i will use a different approach than if i have a senior with alzheimer's confused and trying to take the mic during song service, and different if i have a fanatical extremist trying to take over the sermon from the pew. And that is ok. does not mean my theology is bad.

There are times of need, and we all have to consider what is needed, what is expedient for the situation. How that is interpreted will likely vary from person to person.

I am thankful for the wisdom of many body parts to the whole!

[joeb]

I have been targeted by you as possibly being sentimental in loving.

Wow. What an "accusation". I would take that as a compliment if I were you because if there is no sentiment in our love, well, there is no love as sentiment is an integral part of love.

I'd say anyone who "accuses" you of that simply doesn't have any real clue as to what Christ's love for us is, for if there was no sentiment for us in His heart He would have simply walked away from us in the Garden of Gethsemane.

I say, thank God for people with a love that has sentiment in it for others.

[Woody]

Excellent comments JoeMo and Debb

[joeb]

joeb,

What I posted is how what God has placed on my heart for a while now. It just took me a while to put it into words.

Another place we need balance is in our view of the end times. So often, end-time presentations leave us full of fear. God didn't give us these prophecies to scare us - He gave them to us to provide information; so that when we see these things happen, we may know that He is God; and He is in control.

Many of the "stories" in the OT are models for the end times. Look at some of the "stories" in Daniel.

King Nebbie has a dream, under threat of death, Daniel comes forth and correctly interprets the dream. He is rewarded by being appointed a chief in Babylon. Government takes faithful captive, threatens them with death, God shows His power threatens them with death, God shows His power through the through the faithful, faithfule find favor and rule.

Same with the story of the 3 worthies. King Nebbie builds an idol, forces people to worship it. 3 faithful refuse; and are thrown into the fire. Fire does not even singe them. King Nebbie calls them out of the fire and promotes them to positions of leadership; while proclaiming the omnipotence of their God. Same story - Government takes faithful captive, faithful, faithful find favor and rule.

Models for end time? One world government takes faithful captive and threatens them with death. faithful remain faithful to the end. God shows His power through them; and they find favor with the true King, and reign with Him forever!

Will some faithful die? Yes! The story of Jesus tells us that. Faithful man is taken captive by "government" (this time the establishment church), is killed for His faith, is resurrected in power and glory,resulting in establishment of Christianity. Jesus won the victory through death! Some of us will share that type of victory; and will be resurrected to reign with Him forever!

Folks, with the right balance in the message, this is good news; not bad news!

I pretty much agree with everything you say. My only small quibble is--imagine that, I have a quibble--that it is much harder to live for Christ than it is to die for Him. To live for Him means to face ridicule, sarcasm, taunts, cruelty, to surrender self every day, etc... every day. To die happens only once, to live means the world's response to Christ will happen to us daily.

[joeb]

A question of balance.... Hmmmm.... Sounds like the name of an album I used to listen to on almost a daily basis. The moody blues. Once again it almost sounds like what goes on around here.

Seriously? I think the only answer to the the issue raised in this thread is prayer and reliance upon God. Pray for wisdom before posting. Pray for a loving spirit before posting. Pray for understanding before posting. These are all things God has promised to provide us through His spirit, so when we ask Him for these things we can be sure He will answer our prayer.

If we rely upon ourselves for the wisdom, understanding and correct spirit we need in our posts we are relying upon just what the Bible tells us not to rely on.

[JoeMo]

Hi Joe,

Quote:

To die happens only once, to live means the world's response to Christ will happen to us daily.

I agree to a certain extent. I'm not afraid to die for my faith, as long as it's quick (like a large caliber bullet to the brain) I do worry sometimes about having the strength to die slowly and in agony, or having to witness watching my family be tortured/executed before I finally die. Again, that's living out of fear rather than love and grace; so I try not to think of it.

Quote:

A question of balance.... Hmmmm.... Sounds like the name of an album I used to listen to on almost a daily basis. The moody blues.

Great minds think alike! I was listening to that album when the title of this thread came to me!

[joeb]

Hi Joe,

I agree to a certain extent. I'm not afraid to die for my faith, as long as it's quick (like a large caliber bullet to the brain) I do worry sometimes about having the strength to die slowly and in agony, or having to witness watching my family be tortured/executed before I finally die. Again, that's living out of fear rather than love and grace; so I try not to think of it.

JoeMo,

If you won't take this the wrong way..... This comes from a lack of trust--trust me, I know, and I think you know why I do--in God. He provides us what we need, when we need it, and not before. We are promised grace that our needs for today require. And when tomorrow becomes today, well, we will be provided the grace needed for that today.

[JoeMo]

Quote:

that's living out of fear rather than love and grace; so I try not to think of it.

I know, and I think you know why I do--[i trust] in God. He provides us what we need, when we need it, and not before.

There is nothing to take the wrong way, Joe - I agree with you 100% God has given me the strength I need to deal with past traumas (you know what I'm talking about); I totally trust Him to do it again.

Blessings to you,

JoeMo

[ClubV12]

This thread is seriously unbalanced!

DebbyM, for one, but I could make a list of others, you haven't implied, you have told me straight up, you think my method of dealing with people is to show them the door. Versus your way which is patience and brotherly love.

Quite a contrast, don't you think?

Woodys first post just has to "go there" with the not so subtle condemnation of anybody (thats pretty much everybody) that even looks like they might be conservative as having caused great harm in the Church and being unbalanced.

I gave my opinion on Ellen White and JoeMo "goes off" on the EGWhite Estate and the Church being unbalanced on Ellen White. Then tells ME not to argue and not discuss the gift of prophecy. If you can't handle the law, JoeMo, rename the thread "Grace Only", no conservatives aloud.

And you people talk about BALANCE????

ANYONE making ANY comment about holding PROFESSED Adventists to a higher standard, loving the law, quoting Ellen White is immediately brow beaten, ridiculed and condemded as "showing people the door".

Brief comments about what you would do for inmates and drunks is NOT BALANCED. The elephant in the room is neither drunk or an inmate, nor it is fanatical. The elephant is PROFESSED Adventists beating up other Adventists if they don't see things just the way you think they should.

And you talk about BALANCE???? Puhlease....

[Woody]

Dear JoeMo,

I for one would like to express my appreciation to you for this thread and for the balanced thoughts you bring to the forum. Keep up the good work brother Joe.