A Question of Balance

[joeb]

Originally Posted By: OzarkWoman

That is why I made the statement that Club is the kind of person that runs people off before they have even had a chance to honestly check the church out. I can honestly say that if I would have met him and the attitude he has when I was searching, I would have left and never step foot in another SDA church.

hopefully that sort of "run club off" remark does not run someone off here in real life.

in Christ,

Bob

Just where did you get the "run club off" crack from in the post you quoted? Nothing even close to that was even said.

[ClubV12]

A reasonable question JoeMo. Here we see the early Church in session, at a General Conference, attended by representatives from around the world. This is the highest authority on earth.

And what were these men considering? Questions on doctrine! They recognized two things. One that the Jews had a lot of man made laws they needed to be down away with. A new order of things was in the birth process, the early Church. What then should be required of the members of this new Church. Some requirements are not mentioned because they were obvious. Worship on the seventh day. Jesus is the Messiah and the only path to salvation. Those two pillars were the very foundation of the Church and were not even open to discussion!

The considered what other laws, rules, regulations WOULD be required of the members. Once this was decided, letters were sent out to every Church instructing them on the requirements of the Church, the doctrinal points.

When Corinth started preaching "another gospel" a split in the Church was at risk. Paul addressed them sternly, telling them to stop their false doctrine and come into harmony with the body of believers who comprised, at that time, Gods chosen people. His Church on earth. Corinth and the Galatians, had to comply with those rules and requirements or be dismissed from Gods Church.

In Peters time, in the early Church, THAT was the ONLY means of finding salvation for the believers. Salvation was of the new early Church. Jews, individually, could find salvation. But they would have to learn of the living water through the new Church.

[ClubV12]

I can see James at this Conference making a passionate plea for the LAW!!! We HAVE to have the LAW!!

I can see Paul making a passionate claim for GRACE, it's only by faith we can be saved!

,,,and thus the great righteousness by faith debate was born.

[JoeMo]

Quote:

I can see James at this Conference making a passionate plea for the LAW!!! We HAVE to have the LAW!!

I can see Paul making a passionate claim for GRACE, it's only by faith we can be saved!

,,,and thus the great righteousness by faith debate was born.

Great observation! I've frequently considered that myself!

[Ted Oplinger]

Sigh...one issue resolved...another to go.

Back in a while...Blessings, in the meantime.

[joeb]

JoeMo,

Just an observation for you on Acts 15:10-21.

Notice that it says "the law of Moses". This is different than "the law of God". God wrote His law with His own finger. He dictated the rest to Moses, and Moses wrote them with his own hand.

Moses made a distinction between the two. The law of God was, at the instruction of God, placed inside the ark of the covenant beneath the mercy seat. Moses' law was placed outside the ark of the covenant in a pocket built onto the side of the ark. Deuteronomy 31:16. Notice also that Moses says that this law is to be a "witness against thee". Moses says this several times in both this chapter, the preceeding chapter, and the following chapter, about this specific set of laws that he wrote out.

Paul often speaks of a law, a handwriting of ordinances, that was against the Jews(us), and when he does he is referring to these ceremonial laws using Moses' own words that these laws were to be a witness against them.... He's basically quoting OT scripture in referring to this set of laws without giving attribution, as he often does.

I give you a friendly challenge: find a place in the Bible where God's own handwritten law is unmistakably called a "witness against" us/Jews/thee/etc....

[Gail]

Yes! It is the part of the Bible written by God Himself.

[JoeMo]

Hi Joe,

I can't find a passage where God's own handwritten law (I'm thinking you are talking about the 10 Commandments) is called "a witness against us. But I did find the following passage:

Quote:

Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, transitory though it was, will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? If the ministry that brought condemnation was glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness! For what was glorious has no glory now in comparison with the surpassing glory. And if what was transitory came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which lasts! Therefore, since we have such a hope, we are very bold. We are not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face to prevent the Israelites from seeing the end of what was passing away. But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away. (2 Cor. 3:7-14)

Now; I am assuming that the "ministry which was engraved in letters on stone" is the 10 Commandments. And "what was transitory came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which lasts!", then I infer that we are not saved by the 10 Commandments in the NT, we are saved by the Spirit.

I am not saying that the 10 Commandment are null and void. They reflect God's character and his standard; and if we are His ambassadors, then we should be representing His character. This inference goes right along with Ephesians 2:8-10 which says:

Quote:

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Isn't that awesome?! We are not only saved by grace, but we are empowered by grace to do good works (including obeying His law)! God is so good! just writing this overwhelms with with love for Him and thanksgiving for His grace and mercy!

[ClubV12]

The ten commandments are indeed the standard by which all men will be judged. The law of Moses describes in detail what those ten mean. They apply today as much as they did then.

In the books of heaven every good or bad deed worthy of praise or worthy of condemnation for every man and woman who ever lived is recorded. On October 22, 1844 the investigation of these books began. The investigation began with the dead, one could assume Adam was the first to be reviewed. So, the Judgment was set and the books were opened (first angels message).

Satan points to the record of Adam's sin(s) and demands that Adam pay the price, eternal death. If the law does not apply to Adam, it does not apply to him or to anyone. The law MUST stand, it must apply equally to all, as much to Adam as to Satan as to the angels. Satan makes a strong case, Adam HAS sinned, the record shows it, the law demands death.

But the lovely Jesus steps forward, He pleads with the Father, "My blood, my righteousness." The Father carefully reviews the record and notes that EVERY recorded sin is checked as "forgiven". He accepts the sacrafice of His Son on behalf of Adam and orders that the record of Adams sins be blotted out forever. The only record that remains for Adam is a record of his good deeds.

If even ONE sin, unconfessed, unforgiven, is found on Adams record, then ALL his sins remain. Jesus cannot cover sin that has not been given to Him by confession and repentance. Only then can forgiveness be written in the record.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Jesus cannot cover sin that has not been given to Him by confession and repentance. Only then can forgiveness be written in the record.

It's a very good thing that it is the Holy Spirit who will bring to mind what needs to be brought to Christ for forgiveness...there is no need for us to constantly wring our hands, wondering if there is any unremembered sin for which we need forgiveness...for otherwise, that would be a very stiff, self-flagellating life indeed.

[ClubV12]

The closer I draw to Jesus the more I realize how much I need His righteousness as I have nothing to offer. Confession and repentance for past and present sin is the work of a lifetime, a process of sanctification. Every once in awhile, some sin from my past life, or my present life, is brought to my attention, and I thank God for doing so. My sense of His righteousness, my only hope. My part, to ask forgivenss and repentance. It is true that even this is a gift, I acknowledg that and my love for Him deepens. Not the wringing of hands, as you note, but an ever increasing realization of your need of His righteousness and His great love.

In the Spirit of Prophecy, the details of what the Saints are going through just before Jesus comes is brought to light. The last great time of trouble, their agony of spirit as they seek to recall any and every sin. Has it been confessed? Has it been forgiven? Has Jesus covered them with His righteousness? It is a picture of profound searching of the soul. After they are sealed, and not even Satan knows when the Saints are sealed, they strive in vain to recall even the smallest sin to mind. But they cannot.

They are keenly aware that they stand on the brink of the next world. Are they worthy to associate with pure heavenly beings? Are they ready to meet their life record? They are about to meet the Son and the Father, and no man can stand to look upon the Father in a sinful state without ceasing to exist. Their deep sense of unworthiness is mixed with their joy and hope of Jesus covering their filthy rags.

It is a solemn thing, a work of fear and trembling as the bible puts it. Jesus was solemn, and yet, He laughed, He enjoyed the company of man, found comfort in Marys home. Longed for companionship in the Garden. The gift of prophecy notes He would break out in joy when He recognized a friend in a crowd. Solemn does not mean hand wringing and depression. He was solemn because He understood the demands of the law, what was as stake and He felt the weight of sharing that with others. His single thought was how to reach and save mankind.

This too is a balancing act:

Solemnity over the demands of the law and yet joy over the plan of salvation to escape it's demands.

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted By: BobRyan

hopefully that sort of "run club off" remark does not run someone off here in real life.

in Christ,

Bob

Originally Posted By: joeb

Just where did you get the "run club off" crack from in the post you quoted? Nothing even close to that was even said. [/quote']

I take it from your post that you would have been perfectly joyful had those kind words of sweetness and light posted above to Club - been directed at you and you hope all new comers would have welcomed them just as you apparently would.

I am just pointing out that not everyone would have taken it as the warm fuzzy note of encouragement and welcome that you apparently would - and so I am hoping they do not "run off".

I think we can all see that point.

in Christ,

Bob

[debbym]

Quote:

It's a very good thing that it is the Holy Spirit who will bring to mind what needs to be brought to Christ for forgiveness...there is no need for us to constantly wring our hands, wondering if there is any unremembered sin for which we need forgiveness...for otherwise, that would be a very stiff, self-flagellating life indeed.

absolutely agree.

God is not willing for anyone to perish, he will leave no sin unturned in our hearts. He is able to save to the uttermost all that come unto him in Jesus name.

we can trust God to bring every sin to mind to be forgiven and stand clear before God.

If it were my job to figure out every sin i ever sinned, it would never happen.

[ClubV12]

Concerning confession: Hand wringing vs solemnity vs fear and trembling vs fruits of the spirit (peace, love, joy).

ALL of the above have their part to play. It was FEAR that drove me to God, knowing I was a sinner and having no peace over the matter, I trembled. Hand wringing may well be "soul searching" of convictions the Spirit whispers you may only be slightly aware of. Solemnity is something Jesus carried with Him at ALL times, even when in a state of joy.

Steps to Christ:

"True confession is always of a specific character, and acknowledges particular sins. They may be of such a nature as to be brought before God only; they may be wrongs that should be confessed to individuals who have suffered injury through them; or they may be of a public character, and should then be as publicly confessed. But all confession should be definite and to the point, acknowledging the very sins of which you are guilty."

Steps to Christ 38

Being a Christian, the walk, does not mean everything is going to be peaceful and light. Hard battles with self will have to be fought. What if you had to make a public confession for your sins? That will take some serious humility, courage, fear and trembling will certainly be present. But peace and joy will be gained!

[debbym]

Quote:

Concerning confession: Hand wringing vs solemnity vs fear and trembling vs fruits of the spirit (peace, love, joy).

ALL of the above have their part to play. It was FEAR that drove me to God, knowing I was a sinner and having no peace over the matter, I trembled. Hand wringing may well be "soul searching" of convictions the Spirit whispers you may only be slightly aware of. Solemnity is something Jesus carried with Him at ALL times, even when in a state of joy.

God understands there are all kinds of people.

This scripture was important to me,

God is not mocked whatsoever you sow that shall you also reap.

it is a warning message.

and God will warn everyone. and he warns us today.

but not to torment and distress, but to bless, and guide and protect.

[ClubV12]

DebbyM says,

"...not to torment and distress, but to bless, and guide and protect."

Well said Debby, I believe that with all my heart. The counsel of the spirit of prophecy, for instance, can seem very difficult and confusing. But it was given to be a blessing and I have found that is a blessing! Though not always immediately put into my life, no always perfectly balanced, I KNOW (by faith) it is good and I will be blest.

God does not torture, but He does allow sin to take it's natural course and sin ALWAYS results in torture and distress and worse. Sometimes God uses sin to punish sin! If you like sin, here, have a second helping of it, take all you want, freewill, get a belly full. When your ready, come back and try it His way.

[JoeMo]

Quote:

Sometimes God uses sin to punish sin!

Gosh, Club, That is a hard saying. For me at least, that makes me fear God more than trust Him. I'd like to think that God stays out of the way of our sin; allowing satan access to our minds and hearts. When we finally get sick of satan's torment and cry out to God for help, He then intervenes, blocking (or at least discouraging) satan's access to us.

We assume we can handle sin on our own; and, out of respect for our free will, God allows us the opportunity (kind of like the father of the prodigal son let him go and live on his own).

When we realize how weak we are against satan and the world and finally come to our senses and "come home", the Father is there with the cloak of Christ's righteousness to forgive and protect us; and welcome us back to the family.

At least, that's how I see it...

[joeb]

Hi Joe,

I can't find a passage where God's own handwritten law (I'm thinking you are talking about the 10 Commandments) is called "a witness against us. But I did find the following passage:

Quote:

Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, transitory though it was, will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? If the ministry that brought condemnation was glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness! For what was glorious has no glory now in comparison with the surpassing glory. And if what was transitory came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which lasts! Therefore, since we have such a hope, we are very bold. We are not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face to prevent the Israelites from seeing the end of what was passing away. But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away. (2 Cor. 3:7-14)

Now; I am assuming that the "ministry which was engraved in letters on stone" is the 10 Commandments. And "what was transitory came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which lasts!", then I infer that we are not saved by the 10 Commandments in the NT, we are saved by the Spirit.

I am not saying that the 10 Commandment are null and void. They reflect God's character and his standard; and if we are His ambassadors, then we should be representing His character.

I'll answer this first. I'll answer with a question first. Where do you get the idea that people in the OT were saved by the 10 commandments, and not in the Messiah that was to come, which they looked forward to by faith? They were saved just as much by faith as we are. The entire sacrificial system was created by God to keep the vision of a coming Savior in front of them.

Instead they turned it into a legalistic rite and lost sight of what they were to learn from it. In the thousands of laws that Jews came up with to hedge themselves about with laws so they would not leave God after their return from Babylon there was no mention of the Savior to come. They ended up making a mockery out of God's truth and tried by their own works to save themselves.

As to the answer to the seeming conundrum in IICorinthians 3:7-14, it is found in verse 3. The 10 commandments are now written upon the fleshy tables of our hearts rather than on tables of stone or with ink. There is no question of them going away or of being of lesser importance.

[ClubV12]

JoeMo, one day you might come to understand that there is little that I post that is MY opinion. I tend to echo the words of the prophet.

It was she who said "God punishes sin with sin." We see that principle play out in the bible a lot. David comes to mind, because of the fathers sin, he did not discipline his children. They in turn became sinful as a result and were eventually killed. Sin, punishing sin. This is the very nature of a "curse".

EVERY TIME we sin and don't confess and repent we become "the devils lawful prey". That is a law, and the Father honors that law EVEN FOR Satan, who has dominion over us. The Father's protection is limited to a greater or lesser degree. We suffer the consequences we brought upon our self, that is in harmony with Gods natural laws as well. His law is fair, even to Satan! To a large degree we only see our need of a Saviour because we have suffered the effects of sin. Often, from our own choosing we thus suffer.

You are correct the OT people were saved the same way we are, by faith. But they were often cursed, suffered and died because they chose to ignore the LAW! Time and time again we see this, ignore the law, pay the price, they go hand in hand. Keep the law, get blessed. Salvation is STILL by faith, but discount the law at the risk of your soul.

"His restraining power will be in a measure removed from the agencies of evil, so that a train of circumstances will arise which will punish sin with sin."

Patriarchs and Prophets pg 728

This talking about David, but no context is really required here, it's a simple statement.

[joeb]

I think we can all see that point.

in Christ,

Bob

Actually, I don't.

[joeb]

Hi Joe,

I can't find a passage where God's own handwritten law (I'm thinking you are talking about the 10 Commandments) is called "a witness against us. But I did find the following passage:

Quote:

Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, transitory though it was, will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? If the ministry that brought condemnation was glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness! For what was glorious has no glory now in comparison with the surpassing glory. And if what was transitory came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which lasts! Therefore, since we have such a hope, we are very bold. We are not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face to prevent the Israelites from seeing the end of what was passing away. But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away. (2 Cor. 3:7-14)

Now; I am assuming that the "ministry which was engraved in letters on stone" is the 10 Commandments. And "what was transitory came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which lasts!", then I infer that we are not saved by the 10 Commandments in the NT, we are saved by the Spirit.

I am not saying that the 10 Commandment are null and void. They reflect God's character and his standard; and if we are His ambassadors, then we should be representing His character. This inference goes right along with Ephesians 2:8-10 which says:

Quote:

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Isn't that awesome?! We are not only saved by grace, but we are empowered by grace to do good works (including obeying His law)! God is so good! just writing this overwhelms with with love for Him and thanksgiving for His grace and mercy!

I have a few more questions for you, if you don't mind. I didn't have enough time to address everything in the post on Friday so here's the rest of my comments/questions.

How is the 10 Commandments a "ministry of death" as you're implying it is, when it is now written in the heart rather than on tables of stone? Is it possible you're misreading/misinterpreting Paul's reference to the "ministry of death"?

I'll stop there because I don't want to create a situation where it takes a huge post to answer me, but I do have more to say, more to ask. Hopefully you'll come back and continue this discussion.

[JoeMo]

Quote:

Actually, I don't.

Me neither!

[JoeMo]

Hi Joe - Good to see you back on line!

Quote:

How is the 10 Commandments a "ministry of death" as you're implying it is, when it is now written in the heart rather than on tables of stone?

I was implying nothing; I was quoting Paul. My own read is that the Law is a ministry of death in the sense that it simply defines sin. Both scripture and SoP say that breaking the law - even once in our lives - makes us worthy of death. If it wasn't for the sacrifice of Christ and His Spirit working in our lives, even confession couldn't save us. Even in the OT, when people brought a lamb as a sin offering, the priests didn't examine the sinner to see of He was worthy of forgiveness for breaking the law, he examined the sacrifice to see if it was worhty.

Quote:

Hopefully you'll come back and continue this discussion.

I'll be back Joe. That doesn't mean that I will have satisying answers for you; it just means that I like discussing things with you.

[phkrause]

I think we can all see that point.

Not sure about all, but I got it.

[joeb]

Hi Joe - Good to see you back on line!

Quote:

How is the 10 Commandments a "ministry of death" as you're implying it is, when it is now written in the heart rather than on tables of stone?

I was implying nothing; I was quoting Paul. My own read is that the Law is a ministry of death in the sense that it simply defines sin. Both scripture and SoP say that breaking the law - even once in our lives - makes us worthy of death. If it wasn't for the sacrifice of Christ and His Spirit working in our lives, even confession couldn't save us. Even in the OT, when people brought a lamb as a sin offering, the priests didn't examine the sinner to see of He was worthy of forgiveness for breaking the law, he examined the sacrifice to see if it was worhty.

Quote:

Hopefully you'll come back and continue this discussion.

I'll be back Joe. That doesn't mean that I will have satisying answers for you; it just means that I like discussing things with you.

JoeMo,

You may have been quoting Paul, but to me it's clear that you're misreading him. If the 10 Commandments is a ministry of death when written on tables of stone it's also a ministry of death when written in our hearts. So why would God write a ministry of death in our hearts by the Holy Spirit?

The new covenant promised by God was that He would write the law in our hearts. (Jeremiah 31:31-33, Hebrews 8:8-12) If that is the new covenant, where does your reading of Paul fit in with it?