A Question of Balance

[JoeMo]

joeb,

You honor me! Thanks my friend!

Blessings,

JoeMo

[ClubV12]

We can absolutely do this through "judgementalism" AND we are called to do so! TOLD to do so, it's a command!

When false doctrine is apparent, as it was to Paul, Church members have an obligation to speak up and identify the error. To ignore it is to partake in it.

Christ was speaking to the OFFICIAL positions of the Church of His day. Man made laws, thousands of them, like don't eat eggs laid on the Sabbath day.

He did not dimiss ANYTHING that the Jews were taught from the word. Today, the question must be asked, What is the OFFICIAL position of the G.C. on an issue? I have looked at the doctrine carefully and am in full harmony with those official positions.

[joeb]

We can absolutely do this through "judgementalism" AND we are called to do so! TOLD to do so, it's a command!

When false doctrine is apparent, as it was to Paul, Church members have an obligation to speak up and identify the error. To ignore it is to partake in it.

Christ was speaking to the OFFICIAL positions of the Church of His day. Man made laws, thousands of them, like don't eat eggs laid on the Sabbath day.

He did not dimiss ANYTHING that the Jews were taught from the word. Today, the question must be asked, What is the OFFICIAL position of the G.C. on an issue? I have looked at the doctrine carefully and am in full harmony with those official positions.

[ClubV12]

It is dangerous to base our beliefs on what we feel, what we think we see, miracles or even gifts (charasmatic or other wise). All these things have been and will be used to lead men into error. All these things can be easily duplicated and falsified by the master deceiver. Just because someone is a lovely person, a nice person, a caring, sharing Christian person is not an indication they are doctrinally correct. Indeed, a LOT of Christians around the world may appear as such and their doctrine will lead them to eternal ruin. Babylon is filled with these people, sincerely mistaken and doomed.

What then shall we do? We MUST understand the true doctrine, it is the only route to unity and harmony and true love.

There was nothing wrong with the doctrine of the Jewish Nation as delivered by the Father to them. MAN MADE laws were the problem!

Our faith today, the official organized World Church of Seventh-day Adventists is completely in harmony with the Desire of Ages as it concerns reaching all nations and peoples.

[Gail]

Quote:

Just because someone is a lovely person, a nice person, a caring, sharing Christian person is not an indication they are doctrinally correct.

True, but the verse shared above does take into consideration those who DO have true doctrine. They will STILL be known by their love for one another.

[ClubV12]

We can show love for the drug addict, but we cannot accept his behaviour, to do so would be to lead him to his death. We can love those in Babylon, but if we really love them, we will tell them the truth, they must come out or die.

I can love anyone on this forum and in doing that, I refuse to let them continue in error and false doctrine.

It's the definition of love that is the problem!

[joeb]

We can show love for the drug addict, but we cannot accept his behaviour, to do so would be to lead him to his death. We can love those in Babylon, but if we really love them, we will tell them the truth, they must come out or die.

I can love anyone on this forum and in doing that, I refuse to let them continue in error and false doctrine.

It's the definition of love that is the problem!

No, it's not the definition. It's the lack of love shown. And when the subject of being friends and being in harmony enough with each other so that truth can be discussed without rancor is brought up, you object to it.

You really need to study the life of Christ. Study His methods of teaching. Study His methods of meeting people whevever they are.

The Jews had so denied Christ that they were about to kill Him, and what did He do? He burst out into sobbing with grief because He could not reach them. And you think sentiment, friendship, and the expression of divine love should take a back seat to "setting people straight"? You've completely missed the boat somewhere, Club. You've missed the real goal of righteousness by faith.

Remember ICorinthians 13? Without love we're nothing. We're incapable of reaching anyone. Go re-read it and see what it says again. Find what you're missing. Notice that Paul sums up his previous remarks in the chapter by basically saying in verse 11 and onward that love is what the mature man in Christ has because he has put away childish things.

[ClubV12]

That is your opinion Joeb, that I don't want to be friends with or engage in meaningful dialog on doctrine and other issues. I believe you are mistaken in your understanding of love. Certainly you are mistaken in your analysis of my character. But I am not here to defend my character, I seek only to defend the Church and those who might be exposed to false doctrine.

No one should have to tolerate direct insults and bullying in real life or on the net. When that occurs, and it has, I will not go quietly, I will point to the error and call sin by it's right name. I am not the only one at stake, it places my Church, my friends and the beliefs of the Adventist Church at risk. A defense is warranted and called for.

Harmony and unity WILL NOT be found among those who hold differing doctrinal view points. It is an impossible goal. I can be your friend, we can talk about it, as long you remain civil, don't argue and don't ridicule my beliefs.

It appears to me the definition of love is still greatly misunderstood. And it is true, I myself have much to learn, much to unlearn. Threats, intimidation, ridicule I have not employed, as some have.

Paul was not afraid to confront those directly and in the face concerning their error. He did that with Peter, with the Corinthians, with the Galations. AND he wrote about love!!

[joeb]

That is your opinion Joeb, that I don't want to be friends with or engage in meaningful dialog on doctrine and other issues. I believe you are mistaken in your understanding of love. Certainly you are mistaken in your analysis of my character. But I am not here to defend my character, I seek only to defend the Church and those who might be exposed to false doctrine.

No one should have to tolerate direct insults and bullying in real life or on the net. When that occurs, and it has, I will not go quietly, I will point to the error and call sin by it's right name.

Club,

When you object to friendship and love being shown to those who disagree with us just what else are we to go on than what you yourself say? I'm not judging you or your character. I'm just repeating what you have said.

Would it surprise you to learn that you are seen as a bully, arrogant, unloving, etc... for how you go about saying the things that you do, and because you build no personal relationship with a person before beating them over the head with your point of view? More than one person here would say that is exactly how you are.

I tried to have a discussion with you and it proved impossible. Nothing I showed you made a dent. You had fixated on one sentence and entire paragraphs of Ellen White's own words meant nothing to you. Yet, you claim to believe in her and want to judge others over how they see her. That pretty much boggles my mind.

Get to know some of these people you disagree with so vehemently. You might be surprised at the reasonableness of some of them. Exhange your conversion stories. Exhange how you love God and why? Talk about what you do agree on and why, and after you've built a relationship, maybe, just maybe, they might be willing to listen to you. Until then you're just beating your keyboard to no effect.

I can say this much from personal knowledge. You judge JoeMo waaaay too harshly. I don't personally know some of the others you've been beating on, but I wouldn't be surprised at all if you weren't judging them just as harshly as you do JoeMo.

[ClubV12]

Joeb says,

"When you object to friendship and love being shown to those who disagree with us..."

You ASSUMPTION Joeb, that is NOT what I am saying at all! When Jesus overturned the tables that was love. When Paul asked the Corinthinians who made them the holder of the doctrines? A cutting remark when you consider it, that was love.

When I say I disagree with your doctrinal position, even strongly disagree, that too is love! IS there room for higher ground on all these aspects of love? Sure! There is a time to be gentle and a time to be strong. A time to encourage the Corinthinians and a time to tell them, "Your wrong, you need to change, your out of line, your doctrine is way off base."

And if you don't do this, you hand the addict more drugs. You tickle their ears with smooth sayings.

[joeb]

Joeb says,

"When you object to friendship and love being shown to those who disagree with us..."

You ASSUMPTION Joeb, that is NOT what I am saying at all! When Jesus overturned the tables that was love. When Paul asked the Corinthinians who made them the holder of the doctrines? A cutting remark when you consider it, that was love.

When I say I disagree with your doctrinal position, even strongly disagree, that too is love! IS there room for higher ground on all these aspects of love? Sure! There is a time to be gentle and a time to be strong. A time to encourage the Corinthinians and a time to tell them, "Your wrong, you need to change, your out of line, your doctrine is way off base."

And if you don't do this, you hand the addict more drugs. You tickle their ears with smooth sayings.

I am an addict, Club. I've recieved victory over it because I surrendered it to Christ, not tried to overcome it in my own strength. God removed the urge. I couldn't. God gave me the desire to ask Him for victory. He's responsible for all of it. On my own, well, I'd most likely be dead right now.

So, when you tell me my theology is wrong, that I don't understand sanctification or righteousness by faith I can truthfully tell you that by adopting what I've said here in my own life I've seen major, life-altering, changes in my life that are a reflection of what He has done in my heart because I surrendered self to Him. God is the one who changes us. We do not, and never will be able to, change our own hearts. And, if the heart is pure, the life follows for a corrupt tree cannot bring forth good fruit and a good tree cannot bring forth corrupt fruit.

And, yes there is a time to say something about doctrine, but that time is after you have built up a relationship with someone. Not before. How you cannot see this is, well, after further consideration, it's pretty obvious.

[OzarkWoman]

And, yes there is a time to say something about doctrine, but that time is after you have built up a relationship with someone. Not before.

YES!!!!! That is why I made the statement that Club is the kind of person that runs people off before they have even had a chance to honestly check the church out. I can honestly say that if I would have met him and the attitude he has when I was searching, I would have left and never step foot in another SDA church.

Of course, I had just lost my husband and was in a world of mess.

[Gail]

Let me know if this illustration works for you...

Home-cooked food is always better than restaurant food. Why?

Because the home-cooked meals are prepared by Mom with love. How else can I explain it? Both contain food, but the love does something to the meal. I believe it!

There is just something about love that attracts and shames the wrong out.

In the book The Lost Meaning of the Seventh Day that I just read, the author places into view for us the 2 sides of the end times. On one side is Satan with the harlot and the beast and the lamblike beast, secularism (if you want to interpret France and Egypt that way, best leave that for another thread), and great hosts of armies.

On God's side is a bruised and bleeding Lamb as it has been slain, and that's it.

Yet it is on the side of love and it conquers. Good wins in the end. There is just something about love that inspires courage and righteousness. It puts teeth into truth.

I think that is why the Bible says that all the commandments hang on love and if you prophesied and knew all mysteries but didn't have love it means zip.

[joeb]

Originally Posted By: joeb

And, yes there is a time to say something about doctrine, but that time is after you have built up a relationship with someone. Not before.

YES!!!!! That is why I made the statement that Club is the kind of person that runs people off before they have even had a chance to honestly check the church out. I can honestly say that if I would have met him and the attitude he has when I was searching, I would have left and never step foot in another SDA church.

Of course, I had just lost my husband and was in a world of mess.

I understand OzarkWoman. My earthly father was Club on steroids with being a child abuser included in the mix.

I use a lot of Ellen White around here, but that's because she brought me back into the church, and because there are a lot of people around here who do accept her, or at least claim to anyway.

It was through reading the Conflict of the Ages series that I first found out that God loves even someone that is as defective as I was taught to believe I was. By the time I got half way through the Desire of Ages I was ready to be rebaptized. My heart had seen the light of the love of God and He pulled me out of years of drug addiction. The miracles he's performed in my life are well, incredible.

[Gail]

Praise God, and thank you, Joeb for listening to and accepting the truth that the Holy Spirit whispered to your heart. It is healing!!

[Gail]

It appears that some folk here are understanding what other folk are meaning (connecting with the communication)... That is a good start Keep it up!

[joeb]

Praise God, and thank you, Joeb for listening to and accepting the truth that the Holy Spirit whispered to your heart. It is healing!!

First, please don't praise me for anything. Self likes, well, no, loves to jump up and take the credit for everything. Any credit goes to God. He put the desire within me. He did it all.

And yes, God's love is healing. Isaiah said it wonderfully when he said what Christ's mission on earth was for in Isaiah 61:1.

Take a look at the literal meanings of the Greek in Luke 4:18 where Christ is reading this verse in the synygogue at Nazareth. The word imagery of the Greek is something that is, well, unbelievably beautiful. It is so fitting for someone like me, who has experienced the things I have, that it's sublime.

[ClubV12]

I don't know Gail, I don't see a lot of progress here. Joeb continues his insults, assumptions and accusations toward me. Ozarkwomen grabs a pitch fork and joins the mob.

We are not talking about non-members of the Church here, you people doing the attacking PROFESS to BE Adventists!

"My earthly father was Club on steroids with being a child abuser included in the mix." Did you just call me a pedophile Joeb? Certainly your making insulting remarks. And YOU preach LOVE????

Your excuse as an ex-addict does not give you free reign to insult people. Man up and quit crying, we've all been through our own personal hell.

When did I tell you your theology is wrong Joeb? I haven't done that, I disagree with it, you disagree with aspects of mine. IF your theology on DOCTRINE is wrong, rest assured, I will surely point out what the Church believes and will not sit by while you preach error. IF you do, I haven't seen that.

YOU have a lot to learn about love Joeb, as do I. But I do have common sense to know when I've insulted someone AND been insulted!

[Gail]

First, please don't praise me for anything. Self likes, well, no, loves to jump up and take the credit for everything. Any credit goes to God. He put the desire within me. He did it all.

I didn't. I said, Praise God! :)

[Gail]

Club, I was thinking of Joeb understanding where OW is at. He and you still have a ways to go...

But I have faith in both of you :)

[joeb]

Originally Posted By: joeb

First, please don't praise me for anything. Self likes, well, no, loves to jump up and take the credit for everything. Any credit goes to God. He put the desire within me. He did it all.

I didn't. I said, Praise God!

My bad. I should have said, thank me. I've done nothing thankworthy.

[BobRyan]

That is why I made the statement that Club is the kind of person that runs people off before they have even had a chance to honestly check the church out. I can honestly say that if I would have met him and the attitude he has when I was searching, I would have left and never step foot in another SDA church.

hopefully that sort of "run club off" remark does not run someone off here in real life.

in Christ,

Bob

[joeb]

I don't know Gail, I don't see a lot of progress here. Joeb continues his insults, assumptions and accusations toward me. Ozarkwomen grabs a pitch fork and joins the mob.

We are not talking about non-members of the Church here, you people doing the attacking PROFESS to BE Adventists!

"My earthly father was Club on steroids with being a child abuser included in the mix." Did you just call me a pedophile Joeb? Certainly your making insulting remarks. And YOU preach LOVE????

Your excuse as an ex-addict does not give you free reign to insult people. Man up and quit crying, we've all been through our own personal hell.

When did I tell you your theology is wrong Joeb? I haven't done that, I disagree with it, you disagree with aspects of mine. IF your theology on DOCTRINE is wrong, rest assured, I will surely point out what the Church believes and will not sit by while you preach error. IF you do, I haven't seen that.

YOU have a lot to learn about love Joeb, as do I. But I do have common sense to know when I've insulted someone AND been insulted!

Like I said, Club, you have a problem with reading comprehension. Ted Oplinger's been experiencing the same problems with you. Twist. Twist. Twist. Misrepresent.

[ClubV12]

Wow, you just can't stop, can you Joeb.

Would you PLEASE stop insulting me! Pretty please. When you insist you can't do something, your wish comes true, you can't! God has given you the power to make some decisions on your own, like stop insulting people. Don't blame God for your failure, by waiting for some miracle from heaven. He has ALREADY given you the power to DETERMINE to stop of your own accord! You CAN if you WILL.

[OzarkWoman]

Club, you really need to look min the mirror because all you have ever done is insult me from your very first post to me. If you can't take the heat, stya out of the kitchen, and like you, yourself, said, grow up!