A Question of Balance

[BobRyan]

I have been a member here on CA for about 1.25 years now. Many (if not most) threads here in the Theological Townhall eventually evolve (or devolve) into some form of debate on "saved by works" or "saved by grace" (example "saved from our sin" or "saved in our sin"). I confess that I have been guilty of exclusively professing the "saved by grace" message.

Others with whom I have the most "lively" discussions almost exclusively take the opposite side of that position.

While responding to a post on another thread last night, it struck me that most of those discussions lack an important element - BALANCE.

Several years ago, Ty Gibson told me that grace and works work like two oars in a rowboat.

The two oars can not be "saved from our sins" -- "saved IN our sins" - we at least can agree there.

While we were yet sinners Christ died for us - but then when we read 1John 2 and 1John 3 - we find out that "while we were yet sinners Christ died for us" cannot mean mean "saved IN sin". It would be like proclaiming "sanctified rebellion against God" as the Gospel.

in Christ,

Bob

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Quote:

One *does* good works out of a conviction that *that* is a good, moral and just thing to do. But it certainly doesn't guarantee real estate in heaven.

On the other hand, if one is touting that he is "saved by grace" but does no good works and is a nincompoop, he probably isn't going to have a doorway to heaven, either.

You have restated my cunundrum excellently, Pam. I agree that no one "in practice" believes that we we can lean exclusively on grace and neglect works altogether or vice-versa. But several of us post like we do. Where is the balance between the two when we discuss things so we don't waste time in a lot of the useless bickering that goes on here? Or is it a lost cause and/or waste of time?

JoeMo, I don't think it's a lost cause, but, unfortunately, people can be so "right" that they are wrong. It turns into another "beat up someone for Christ" type of thing.

I guess I don't see the point to debating a "works" vs "grace" issue, because it's a non-issue. Faith without works is dead. And vice versa. I think it's a very personal issue. That's why it's difficult to have a discussion about it.

********

And just my own take on some of the personal dynamics here: I can see why ClubV12 feels like he's being attacked....because he *is*... not cool. I haven't seen in this thread where ClubV12 attacked anyone first, but maybe I missed something. It's an interesting forum phenomenon - it's apparently okay to post ad hominem remarks towards some, but not okay towards others. No rhyme nor reason to it at all, from what I've seen...

[debbym]

Quote:

I guess I don't see the point to debating a "works" vs "grace" issue, because it's a non-issue. Faith without works is dead. And vice versa. I think it's a very personal issue. That's why it's difficult to have a discussion about it.

on the works vs faith balance

we can't stop thinking, and we can't stop doing we are in this river of time and being alive... it is living.

and as each day is given to us, we have faith as Christians and inevitably it is going to affect our thinking, our habits and decisions. we make thousands of micro decisions every day.

and when we believe we become connected to god who then influences us and leads usd and teaches us... and our behaviors will change, and when we are out of balance god does work in our lives to balance us.

all of our behaviors are not rigid intentional disciple of your actions. we really have to depend on God to work in us both to will and to do of his good will. he even teaches how to recognize his will and how to follow through on what he asks of us.

all of our good behaviors and all of our good anything is God working in us.

and God is working in those who do not know him as much as he can to lead and teach and bless.

if we focus on our behavior judging ourselves all the time, we will miss the higher thoughts and ways of God., God says do not be like a mule that must have a bit in it's mouth to be turned one way or another.

we are to serve God will willing glad hearts.

there is balance. when it is by willing decisions... it is ok, but when we are coercing and controlling ourselves... it is not ok.

does not mean we can't cram in finals week, nor does it mean we can sunbathe all day when work needs to be done.

[JoeMo]

As joeb has stated, he and I have found common ground by getting to know each other as "people" - not just "posters". In doing so, we have discovered that, as personal barriers are dropped, we have a LOT more in common than we originally thought. A personal relationship has taken us to the point that, we no longer imply" I'm right and you're wrong; I'll prove it from God's word or SoP!" We now say "let us sit down together brother; and see what the Lord is saying". Guess what? Although we don't agree on every doctrinal point, we find we have much more in common that we originally perceived. Because we are personal friends now rather than just "posters", we are able to look at things together and enjoy a good talk rather than argue about differences of opinion; and becoming "offended" by one another.

There are many others here on CA with whom I have deveoped a similar relationship. We have achieved a balance between personal belief and friendship/respect/ honor.

Didn't Jesus do the same thing? The way I read scripture, His friendship with His disciples allowed him to overlook (maybe forgive is a better word)many of their long-term shortcomings. Yet, He could be quite harsh and judgemental on those who continually opposed Him, like the leadership of the church at that time. Jesus never pointed people to the Sanhedrin for truth; He pointed to God's word. In taking Jesus as an example, shouldn't we refer to God's word rather than the modern day Sanhedrin? I ask this question not just to Adventists, but all those who look to their denomination for salvation. Salvation is not via the Adventist Church, Catholic Church, Baptists, or any denomination; it is from every word that proceedeth from the mouth of God. Salvation comes through our love/trust relationship with jesus Christ and His grace. We are saved by His grace, not by a set of doctrines. The church cannot give grace unto salvation; only Jesus can do that.

Church is great! It is an outlet for public worship, a means to have fellowship with like-minded believers, and a place to learn more of God's word. But church and doctrine doesn't save us, only Jesus and His grace do that.

Lest I be accused of being unbalanceed again - like I said before, the ability to overcome sin in a by-product of grace. If we are not gaining victory after victory and moving from glory to glory, are we really effectively using the grace that God freely offers?

[JoeMo]

Quote:

if we focus on our behavior judging ourselves all the time, we will miss the higher thoughts and ways of God., God says do not be like a mule that must have a bit in it's mouth to be turned one way or another.

we are to serve God will willing glad hearts.

there is balance. when it is by willing decisions... it is ok, but when we are coercing and controlling ourselves... it is not ok.

Amen, Deb!

Incidentally, I am starting to have an issue with you ...

You are so eloquent; and your words are so filled with the Holy Spirit that I'm getting a little jealous...

(Please know that I'm just kidding!)

Blessings to you,

JoeMo

[Ted Oplinger]

Deb and JoeMo...

and

on all three last posts!

Blessings,

[ClubV12]

JoeMo says,

"Salvation is not via the Adventist Church..."

Actually, it is, sorry, but thats just the fact of the matter.

And now, will you hate me and ridicule me because I have stated the truth? No doubt many will, and say that I do not have love. I do have love, I will not let you perish without a warning.

When Jesus told the woman at the well that salvation was of the Jews, did he mean there was no hope for anybody outside HIS specific Church, the Jewish Nation Church? No, He recognized that some people, like the wise men for instance, had no access to His church and limited understanding.

But you see, the woman at the well, she DID have access to His Church. She had access to spiritual knowledge and understanding that Church contained. She was held to a different and higher standard than the wise men. Or those Greeks who traveled so far to see Jesus, but didn't live near His Church.

Salvation was of the Jews to all that had access and knowledge of Gods chosen people, Gods chosen Church at that time. Salavation for those who did, like the woman at the well, HAD to acknowledge that fact. She hated Jews, all her people hated Jews. They would have been appalled at the idea of associating with Jews, let alone, being "forced" to acknowledge salvation could ONLY be found through that Church. It was a terrible test of faith, requiring unimaginable humbling of themselves. Because the organized Jewish system of worship really WAS corrupt, sinful, it was bad, rotten. Leaving the woman with a very good reason to NOT submit to them. And yet, she must, if she was to find salvation, it was the ONLY way.

JoeMo, YOU are that woman at the well, along with most everyone else on this forum with a knowledge of the organized religion of Seventh-day Adventists.

FOR YOU, there is no alternative, salvation is of the Seventh-day Adventist Church. Just as it was of the hated and corrupt Jewish Nation of Jesus' time. A terrible, humbling decision will have to be made. You will have to align yourselves with and support Gods chosen people, Gods chosen Church or not.

[Woody]

As joeb has stated, he and I have found common ground by getting to know each other as "people" - not just "posters". In doing so, we have discovered that, as personal barriers are dropped, we have a LOT more in common than we originally thought. A personal relationship has taken us to the point that, we no longer imply" I'm right and you're wrong; I'll prove it from God's word or SoP!" We now say "let us sit down together brother; and see what the Lord is saying". Guess what? Although we don't agree on every doctrinal point, we find we have much more in common that we originally perceived. Because we are personal friends now rather than just "posters", we are able to look at things together and enjoy a good talk rather than argue about differences of opinion; and becoming "offended" by one another.

There are many others here on CA with whom I have deveoped a similar relationship. We have achieved a balance between personal belief and friendship/respect/ honor.

Didn't Jesus do the same thing? The way I read scripture, His friendship with His disciples allowed him to overlook (maybe forgive is a better word)many of their long-term shortcomings. Yet, He could be quite harsh and judgemental on those who continually opposed Him, like the leadership of the church at that time. Jesus never pointed people to the Sanhedrin for truth; He pointed to God's word. In taking Jesus as an example, shouldn't we refer to God's word rather than the modern day Sanhedrin? I ask this question not just to Adventists, but all those who look to their denomination for salvation. Salvation is not via the Adventist Church, Catholic Church, Baptists, or any denomination; it is from every word that proceedeth from the mouth of God. Salvation comes through our love/trust relationship with jesus Christ and His grace. We are saved by His grace, not by a set of doctrines. The church cannot give grace unto salvation; only Jesus can do that.

Church is great! It is an outlet for public worship, a means to have fellowship with like-minded believers, and a place to learn more of God's word. But church and doctrine doesn't save us, only Jesus and His grace do that.

Lest I be accused of being unbalanceed again - like I said before, the ability to overcome sin in a by-product of grace. If we are not gaining victory after victory and moving from glory to glory, are we really effectively using the grace that God freely offers?

[JoeMo]

Quote:

And now, will you hate me and ridicule me because I have stated the truth? No doubt many will, and say that I do not have love. I do have love, I will not let you perish without a warning.

Club,

I don't hate you; and I'm not ridculing you! Where do you get this? I simply stated an opinion; and if it doesn't agree with yours; so be it! It is not a personal attack - it is simply a statement of opinion! Just because we disagree on some things does not imply hatred or disrespect! Can't we just have a repectful discussion here? I could rant about how I have felt personally attacked by you on several occasions in this thread; but I'm not going to (outside of the fact that I just now kinda did ). You need to get some thicker skin and quit taking anything that disagrees with your opinion as a personal attack.

Has it ever occured to you that, although you are 100% sincere; you may not be 100% correct in every opinion that you have? I'll admit that that is the case with me. I claim the right to be wrong; to make a mistake; and to change my mind if the evidence and the logic presented motivate me to do so. Others here at CA have caused me to modify my position in many areas. The fact that you have yet to even try to understand where I am coming from and insist on engaging me at a purely emotional level rather than in an objective and mutually respctful dialogue isn't motivating me much!

[Gail]

Quote:

And now, will you hate me and ridicule me because I have stated the truth? No doubt many will, and say that I do not have love. I do have love, I will not let you perish without a warning.

Some of us are called to it, and like Jeremiah, will be opposed. That isn't me, but I'm not denying anyone else who feels that is their ministry.

[ClubV12]

JoeMo, bless your heart, I was not referring directly to you as hating me. SOME will, I accept that, I do hope and believe you will not be one of them.

Gail, I do appreciate your insight on this. I have much more appreciation for what Sister White had to do, and she didn't want to do it! As some prophets before also did not want nor enjoy what they had to do. But they had no choice, they had to honor God and deal with the people. I am not necessarily called to this work, but I understand that at times, something must be said. I take no pleasure in it...

"Has it ever occured to you that, although you are 100% sincere; you may not be 100% correct in every opinion that you have?"

It is serious consideration I always carry, sometimes I don't get it right. What I DO try and do is NOT offer "my opinion" on things. I apply the principles of the bible and the spirit of prophecy. My statements are often nothing more than a paraphrase of what they have to say. I make mistakes on occasion, need to come to higher ground.

[CoAspen]

Quote:

JoeMo says,

"Salvation is not via the Adventist Church..."

Actually, it is, sorry, but thats just the fact of the matter.

Not Biblical, any size shape or form, unless you are trying to say that the Christs Church is best embodied in the beliefs of the SDA church. But the way you state it and argue it gives the impression that salvation can only be found in the SDA church. Period! Not stated by the .org, not a belief of the .org and not taught by the .org.

Salvation is only through the death of Christ and belief in Him.

I 'think' that is your belief also but you mix it up with so much 'SDA Church' stuff, that ones gets confused trying to understand what your real belief is. To me you come across as being conflicted on the real way to access God. I see some very troubling parallels to Catholicism.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

sometimes I wonder why members of the SDA church are members of the SDA church...

[Woody]

Quote:

Has it ever occured to you that, although you are 100% sincere; you may not be 100% correct in every opinion that you have? I'll admit that that is the case with me. I claim the right to be wrong; to make a mistake; and to change my mind if the evidence and the logic presented motivate me to do so. Others here at CA have caused me to modify my position in many areas. The fact that you have yet to even try to understand where I am coming from and insist on engaging me at a purely emotional level rather than in an objective and mutually respctful dialogue isn't motivating me much!

Exactly JoeMo. This is the bottom line here. When someone comes on as if their opinion is the voice of God and they are just here doing His bidding --- I check out. None of our opinions or beliefs are infallible. Those that understand this - I listen to. Those who do not - I ignore.

[Woody]

Quote:

To me you come across as being conflicted on the real way to access God. I see some very troubling parallels to Catholicism.

My observation also CoA

[CoAspen]

(Hi, Pam...nice photo! How are the dragons doing...crunch-crunch)

[Gail]

(Hi, Pam...nice photo! How are the dragons doing...crunch-crunch)

Yes, it is a very nice photo!

[ClubV12]

So did the women at the well Pam.

Heres the thing. Seventh-day Adventists have been raised up with a special message and a special mission. To call people out of Babylon, because the judgment is now under way. NO OTHER CHURCH has this mission or this message. In that respect, indeed, "Salvation is of the Seventh-day Adventist Church BECAUSE they alone hold the present truth for a dieing world."

That is a fact every Adventist needs to seriously consider and come to a decision on. Salvation is not of the Baptists, or the Jehovah Witness or that lovely Church some might now attend that has removed itself or been removed from the organized Seventh-day Adventist Church. Salvation cannot be found in any other doctrine of any other Christian Church. The doctrine and theology for salvation has been given to THIS Church, Seventh-day Adventists. Just as in Jesus time, it had been given to the Jewish Church. THEY ALONE carried the present truth, even while they were trying to figure out how to put Jesus to death, STILL, they carried the ONLY present truth at that time.

Not until a new Church, the early Church, was established did that change. Adventist have to ask themselves, "Has God now abandoned the Seventh-day Adventist Church?" Has he, Pam? Has he raised up a new Church to replace them? To give the same message through a different body of believers?

Some say He has, and they the organized Seventh-day Adventist Church "Babylon" and seek to bring people out of that Church. They are sincere and sincerely mistaken and in great darkness and delusion. Advenits MUST get off the fence on this issue. They MUST resolve whether or not THIS Church has present truth for a dieing world, or not.

[JoeMo]

Quote:

Not Biblical, any size shape or form, unless you are trying to say that the Christs Church is best embodied in the beliefs of the SDA church ... Salvation is only through the death of Christ and belief in Him.

Amen!! So true CoAspen! It will be so cool to meet those of other faiths in heaven; and hear their testimonies about meeting Jesus!

[ClubV12]

To believe in Jesus is to acknowledge HIS Church. In His day, that was the Jewish Nation, there was no other way.

Some of "other faiths" will certainly be there JoeMo. That was the case for the wise men and those who came and said "We would see Jesus". That was not the case for the women at the well. That is not the case for those who have access and a knowledge of His chosen people, His Church today.

To fight against the Church is to deny Jesus and fight against the throne of God. The delusion and test of faith for many will be:

Sounds like Catholics.

Looks like apostasy.

Can't be the ONLY way.

Choose your poison, they are all deadly in the end.

[OzarkWoman]

JoeMo says,

"Salvation is not via the Adventist Church..."

Actually, it is, sorry, but thats just the fact of the matter.

OMG!!!! What arrogance!! I feel so sorry for you because you are in for a rude awakening in the future. With that one statement of yours, you have have proven my points about you completely!

[ClubV12]

Did any of you think the test of faith was going to be easy?

That woman at the well, must have been horrified at the thought of having to humble herself to the Jews she hated.

The rich young ruler, could not part with his nice stuff.

The test involves having to humble yourself to the very dust in many cases. How easy was it for those in the days of Ellen White to leave the Churches they loved? It was agony. Luther never intended to leave the Church he loved, it broke his heart.

The test will come to each of us, it will require great sacrafice, it will be unimaginable in terms of cost. It will appear to go against everything you have believed.

When Ellen White, in vision, was asked to recall her greatest trial, she could not. She proclaimed, "Heaven is cheap enough!" My friends, do not harden your hearts, please.

[Gail]

Quote:

That woman at the well, must have been horrified at the thought of having to humble herself to the Jews she hated.

But notice what happened when she was offered living water...

[ClubV12]

The only way to salvation, that living water which brings life. THEE most important truth!

I wonder, what became of the women at the well? Where would she go to learn more about this living water? Jesus left her there, He was gone after one conversation. But He pointed her to the way. In those days many Gentiles worshiped with and accepted the Jewish faith. Salvation has never demanded you have to BE an actual Jew. But they DID have to follow the religious doctrine and theology OF the Jews. That was Gods Church on earth at the time. NOT the thousands of man made laws, but the true, God given laws, rules, doctrines, theology, the Gentiles had to recognize and obey. Nothing has changed, the law is still the test today. Sabbath vs Sunday if you want to learn more about the living water, that is where you find it.

Paul on the road to Damascus learned of that living water, but then the light faded and he was left blind. Where was he pointed to learn more of this living water? To Gods Church. He, like the woman at the well, must have been horrified. To seek help and learn from the very ones he had persecuted? To have to submit to their doctrine and theology, so opposed to all he had learned, fought for and beleived in? It must have been terrible agony of spirit for him to acknowledge Gods church on earth at that time. But that is where he was directed, to learn more about that living water.

[JoeMo]

Quote:

I wonder, what became of the women at the well?

Quote:

Then, leaving her water jar, the woman went back to the town and said to the people, “Come, see a man who told me everything I ever did. Could this be the Messiah?” They came out of the town and made their way toward him. (John 4:28-30)

She bacame the first missionary to the Samaritans! What a blessing for both her AND the Samaritans.

Quote:

NOT the thousands of man made laws, but the true, God given laws, rules, doctrines, theology, the Gentiles had to recognize and obey.

I have a question (not challenging you or denying what you state):

Quote:

[Peter asks]Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of Gentiles a yoke that neither we nor our ancestors have been able to bear? No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are...[James responds]It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God. Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood. For the law of Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath.”(Acts15:10-21)

How do you rectify your staement with this scripture?