A Question of Balance

[phkrause]

You may have been quoting Paul, but to me it's clear that you're misreading him. If the 10 Commandments is a ministry of death when written on tables of stone it's also a ministry of death when written in our hearts. So why would God write a ministry of death in our hearts by the Holy Spirit?

The new covenant promised by God was that He would write the law in our hearts. (Jeremiah 31:31-33, Hebrews 8:8-12) If that is the new covenant, where does your reading of Paul fit in with it?

[JoeMo]

Quote:

So why would God write a ministry of death in our hearts by the Holy Spirit?

It doesn't matter where the law is currenly written, God's word says that if we break that law, the sentence is death. It is by grace that we are saved. At least, it is by grace that I am saved. I haven't been able to get the "perfection" thing down perfectly yet... I don't know anyone who has.

[debbym]

Quote:

It doesn't matter where the law is currenly written, God's word says that if we break that law, the sentence is death. It is by grace that we are saved. At least, it is by grace that I am saved. I haven't been able to get the "perfection" thing down perfectly yet... I don't know anyone who has.

the law is an expression of the very Character of God. the ten commands are the expression of the Character of God to meet the condition of fallen man.

the law of God describes the points on which we need to be corrected to be in harmony with the Character of God.

when we are sinning we are living in our own strength. When we are obeying by the power of God we are not sinning.

we are in the time where our walk is progressive to live more and more by the power of God and less and less in our own strength.

It is the work of God to bring us into complete obedience, this is something we cannot accomplish. God will not do this unless we are willing, and we are in process of learning to more and more completely surrender our will. God only accepts willing obedience.

The character of God is death to sin, the love of God brings an end to sin.

Jesus was a savor of life unto life and death unto death.

those who rejected Christ were sealed to their death. Those who accepted Christ were sealed to their eternal life.

Living to Christ means dying to one's selfishness.

God alone can say he is supreme and it still be a pure and unselfish position. God is the one who is giving life and sustaining all His creation. He is perfectly giving, loving and unselfish. His enemy has told lies and misrepresented God's character. No one else can declare themselves to be supreme. No one else is sustaining all things.

[Gail]

[Woody]

You are right JoeMo -

The wages of sin is death.

[joeb]

Quote:

So why would God write a ministry of death in our hearts by the Holy Spirit?

It doesn't matter where the law is currenly written, God's word says that if we break that law, the sentence is death. It is by grace that we are saved. At least, it is by grace that I am saved. I haven't been able to get the "perfection" thing down perfectly yet... I don't know anyone who has.

JoeMo,

Is it not possible that you've read into Paul's statement something that isn't there? Isn't he referring to the COI's promise to God after He gave them the 10 Commandments on the tables of stone that "all you have said we will do" and then proceeded to try to obey God in their own power. That was the covenant that was made and broken. That was the covenant made with faulty promises. That was the ministry of death. It was glorious in that Moses' face shown with the light of God's presence when he came down the from receiving the 10 Commandments, but it was a fading glory. A temporary glory, because the light in Moses' face gradually faded away when he was no longer in God's presence.

The glory of the new covenant is that God said the law would become internal to us. That God would cause us to obey it. (Ezekiel 36: 26-28, Jeremiah 24, Ezekiel 20:12,20, John 15:8-11) That's the eternal glory that fades not away because it comes from Christ and His life lived out in us by His faith when we grasp His promises by faith. It's the eternal life that comes from Christ living within us. This is the new and better covenant based upon better promises because the promises it is based upon are God's promises, not human promises.

Does any of this make sense to you? Or am I just babbling to be babbling?

[ClubV12]

Essentially, your describing righteousness by faith Joeb. Which is a herculean task in spite of being as simple as ABC.

Even under the old covenant there are many examples of the Saints understanding and accepting God through faith. Abraham comes to mind. Then and now, the Father recognized the impossibility of man obeying the law perfectly in every detail. Without grace none of the OT peoples could be accounted worthy. Even their proclamation, "We will do all that", was the sin of presumption! Having been slaves for four hundred years and even the Sabbath having lost it's meaning, the Father was all but starting from scratch with mankind. Gotta start somewhere, I think it's fair to say they could not have grasped righteousness by faith with any real understanding. Like completely out of control children they needed clearly defined "boundaries", for their own protection. In that respect, we are in no better position, the law is not only good, it protects us.

So what does "write them in their heart" really mean? What really changed from that generation to the new generation? The law still applies, that didn't go away. He came to confirm the law, not do away with it. As Abraham was saved by faith, faith has always been the key. So faith didn't change. The law didn't change. The path to salvation didn't change. What DID change?

Or was this just a way to introduce "new light", which the early Church recognized as "righteousness by faith" (just as Abraham and others had done before them)? Paul was certainly aware of this new concept and what a breath of fresh air that must have been! He, a man of the law, not even eating eggs laid on the Sabbath. Schooled and learned in the 1,000 of man made laws of the Jewish Nation. Luther grasped it when he was climbing the stairs on his knees in penitance. John Wesley lost site of it and reverted back to a strict "Methodical" (Methodist) version of keeping the law before he grasped it, as Luther had. People still go back and forth, grace is everything, the law is everything, their both right... Wesley still "methodically" kept the law AFTER he grasped righteousness by faith, as did Luther. They kept GODS law, not man made law. How do we know which is which, which to keep and which to ignore? Tricky question.

Is Church law, Gods law? I believe it is and I believe we are bound to it because it TO is a broader understanding and application of the Ten Commandments. ONLY when Church violates your conscience to the point where you cannot follow it, as Luther came to realize, ONLY then is it mans law.

[JoeMo]

Hi Joe,

You said:

Quote:

Isn't he referring to the COI's promise to God after He gave them the 10 Commandments on the tables of stone that "all you have said we will do" and then proceeded to try to obey God in their own power. That was the covenant that was made and broken.

The answer is yes. Since Israel refused to have a faith relationship with God and requested a codification of the Law, that's what God gave them - a law that was impossible to keep without relationship. Now that the law is written in our hearts, how is it possible to keep the Law? By grace and the Spirit. As as stated in the story of the rich young ruler:

Quote:

When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?

But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.(Matt 19:25-26)

How are we saved? What gives us the power to overcome sin? Faith and reliance on God.

Love also has a big part to play in it. Read 1 Cor. 13. Verse 3 says:

Quote:

And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.

So even if the rich young ruler did everything Jesus said, if he didn't have love, it meant nothing. So I add love of God and love of our fellow mwn into the equation of salvation. Aren't those the 2 great commandments?

Club said:

Quote:

Essentially, your describing righteousness by faith Joeb. Which is a herculean task in spite of being as simple as ABC.

I agree with him. As I told you yesterday in a PM, as much of a liberal as I appear to be, I often still fall back on relying on my own performance instead of trusting in God for salvation. That's when I fail. Come to think of it, maybe that's what Club was driving at when he quoted EGW as saying God punishes sin with sin". We become prideful (which is a sin), thinking "I can do this!" God gives us free reign; and what happens, Under our own effort we sin! Then what happens? we go back to God (hopefully); and confess our sin and rededicate ourselves to Him; and He forgives us and takes us back.

I think we are saying the same thing. The law (and trying to keep it under our own power) will never save us. It is only by the grace and power of Christ received through faith that we ever obtain the power to overcome. It is only by that power that we are saved.

We serve such an awesome God!

[debbym]

Quote:

I think we are saying the same thing. The law (and trying to keep it under our own power) will never save us. It is only by the grace and power of Christ received through faith that we ever obtain the power to overcome. It is only by that power that we are saved.

since we are fallen and weak and liable to err, and the heart is deceitful above all things who can know it, and none doeth good no not one... and of ourselves we can do nothing.

we are given the Holy Spirit then we are also given the external word to prove ourselves by. Unto the law and the testimony if they speak not according to these words there is no light in them.

well this scripture is set aside a lot. and never without consequences. we cannot casually set aside whatever scripture doesn't align with our thinking to justify ourselves in our course..

if the spirit we are following and empowered by does not lead us to follow the word of God, we can know it is leading us to err.

[joeb]

I agree with him. As I told you yesterday in a PM, as much of a liberal as I appear to be, I often still fall back on relying on my own performance instead of trusting in God for salvation. That's when I fail. Come to think of it, maybe that's what Club was driving at when he quoted EGW as saying God punishes sin with sin". We become prideful (which is a sin), thinking "I can do this!" God gives us free reign; and what happens, Under our own effort we sin! Then what happens? we go back to God (hopefully); and confess our sin and rededicate ourselves to Him; and He forgives us and takes us back.

I think we are saying the same thing. The law (and trying to keep it under our own power) will never save us. It is only by the grace and power of Christ received through faith that we ever obtain the power to overcome. It is only by that power that we are saved.

We serve such an awesome God!

I'm glad to hear we're at least partially on the same page, or at least that's what I think you said to me. I'm not quite sure though as you quoted both me and Club in the same post and said you agreed with "him". It left me just slightly confused. Well, that's probably my normal state, so take no notice of it....

I am still unclear why you think the law of God itself is the ministry of death. I think, at least I hope, that we are agreed that it was the broken covenant that was the ministry of death in the verses you quoted.

Lack of trusting God enough to take Him at His word is what the entire sin thing has always been about, so I'm really confused about how you get to idea that the law of God that has always existed, and is synonymous with God's character, which is love, is death. How does love equal death in your eyes, for if A=B and B=C, then A=C? (A=God's Love, B=God's character C=God's law, ) God's love is life. God is life. His law is life. That's taken again from the previous logic train A=B B=C then A=C. Everything to do with God is life. It's only apart from Him that death exists, and God's law is never separate from God.

[JoeMo]

Hey Joe,

Quote:

I am still unclear why you think the law of God itself is the ministry of death. I think, at least I hope, that we are agreed that it was the broken covenant that was the ministry of death in the verses you quoted.

That statement cleared things up a lot for me - Thanks!

The Law has always existed and always will exist - you are correct! As stated in Hebrews, it is the old COVENANT that is obselete. Rather than quote the whole thing, I will just point to the book of Hebrews (specifically Chapter 8) as a reference.

Thanks for being patient with me and helping me clarify things!

Blessings,

JoeMo

[joeb]

Hey Joe,

Quote:

I am still unclear why you think the law of God itself is the ministry of death. I think, at least I hope, that we are agreed that it was the broken covenant that was the ministry of death in the verses you quoted.

That statement cleared things up a lot for me - Thanks!

The Law has always existed and always will exist - you are correct! As stated in Hebrews, it is the old COVENANT that is obselete. Rather than quote the whole thing, I will just point to the book of Hebrews (specifically Chapter 8) as a reference.

Thanks for being patient with me and helping me clarify things!

Blessings,

JoeMo

No problem. I'm glad to see we are agreed on this. I've just been curious to see your thinking all the way through this.