A Question of Balance

[JoeMo]

Hey Club,

Take a minute ... breathe ...

I did not bring EGW into this thread - you did (see post #625421 on page 1). I simply responded that I have no problem with her; and that, as the originator of this thread, I would prefer that you not sabatoge it by making it about her. I admit that I took issue with the White Estate's and denomination's promotion of EGW, but (in my opinion) I didn't "go off" on them. If this thread angers you, please take your anger elsewhere.

This thread is about balancing relationship and obedience; balancing grace and law. They are related.

FYI, I don't have problems with, nor do I support either conservatives or liberals. There are places in my faith where I am quite liberal; and there are other places where I am quite conservative. From my knowledge of the other posters on this thread, I think that they are the same way.

The thing I DO have an issue with is anger and judging or condemning others - either liberals or conservatives. Your last post was very insulting to a couple of my favorite people on CA. If you want to personally attack me or them, please do it someplace else - don't do it by sabatoging this thread. If I see another post on this thread as angry as your previous one, I will report it to the Moderators; and let them deal with it.

[JoeMo]

Quote:

I for one would like to express my appreciation

Thanks Brother Woody! You know I would not be here if it wasn't for you working on my attitudes and opinions last year.

I will probably be a star in your crown!

Sincerely,

JoeMo

[ClubV12]

Yes JoeMo, YOU did bring Ellen White into this thread!!!

I made ONE simple comment about how in MY opinion, "balance" will only be found by applying the principles of the Spirit of Prophecy.

Which GREATLY upset you and your immediate response was one of ridicule not only of ME, but the EG White Estate and the organized Seventh-day Adventist Church. Which it should be noted you are not a member of, do not attend that Church and do not follow the Sabbath School lesson of that Church. So what buisness is out of yours anyway? Who should you even care what MY Church, MY family does or doesn't do?

YOU were the one that called ME unbalanced and ridiculed my personal beliefs and my Church in the process.

YOU JoeMo, are EXACTLY the one who introduced Ellen White into this thread. You could have let it go, you chose not too. You made a CHOICE, freewill, exercised your right, DETERMINED of your own accord to make an issue of it. You "worked" at it, all the while professing supreme "righteousness" and gathering up a few "FALSE SYMPATHIZERS" in the process.

Balance is IMPOSSIBLE until you people STOP bashing those who disagree with your ugly, condeming, ridiculing point of view toward the Seventh-day Adventist Church.

Your report whatever you want JoeMo, I won't be intimidated or threatened by your continued abuse.

[OzarkWoman]

The elephant is PROFESSED Adventists beating up other Adventists if they don't see things just the way you think they should.

Look in the mirror!!! Pot meet kettle.

[CoAspen]

Sometimes 'balance' can be found by looking in the mirror and not protesting to the point of 'losing it'!

[ClubV12]

...and the blame game continues. I didn't start this fire. I made a simple comment and the insults and bashing as a result are on you.

This is internet bullying, same thing you might see on Facebook. Think carefully people, about just who you are choosing to stand with.

[debbym]

Quote:

you haven't implied, you have told me straight up, you think my method of dealing with people is to show them the door. Versus your way which is patience and brotherly love.

Quite a contrast, don't you think?

it never occurred to me to imagine you ever showing anyone the door in dealing with them.

i believe the family of God needs persons with your gifts and your strengths to serve as they are needed.

you are studied, sincere, motivated and you are impassioned about what you believe and why. these are amazing and wonderful attributes.

I am glad you love the law, because the law is an expression of the very heart and character of God. Perfect peace have they which love thy law and nothing shall offend them.

I am so glad you are so above taking any petty offense. you want to see the sda church be true and with no compromising.

I don't think any SDA here thinks little of the Amazing Law of God. And i don't see any that are out belittling E. Whites books either. She was truly human, weak erring and even flawed. But this is encouraging because with all her failures God was able to mightily use her, even as he can use us in spite of our failings.

i didn't say what i would do in dealing with inmates or with drunks, or the elderly, or dementia patients. but i did say they should be dealt with individually taking their specific needs into consideration. God does no less when he labors with our hearts individually to gently lead us, correct us, and guide us into more and more of His perfect will for us.

God perfectly understands each of us, and he perfectly loves us, and he is teaching us how to be respectful, and to show his forgiving and gracious character to everyone.

Jesus had every kind of man in his twelve leaders. they were needed to reach every kind of man that needed to hear the good news and learn to walk with Jesus. Jesus has called you Club and he is the one leading you and teaching you to fulfill the place he has for you to work in his vineyard. you do not offend me club, really you don't.

sometimes i think you jump to conclusions about what i am saying and add more than what i am really thinking or talking about. that is all. I am sure you have had something like this happen before. It can be covered easily and quickly and clarified with no problem.

i really am easy going, and am happy to clarify any time.

[BobRyan]

I don't think any SDA here thinks little of the Amazing Law of God. And i don't see any that are out belittling E. Whites books either.

I have been away from the internet for a few days -- apparently I have missed some big changes here at CA.

What a wonderful surprise. I for one am very thankful to see this turn of events.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

Just got back from the Southern Union ASI conference where Randy Skeete was the keynote speaker. Outstanding!

And now it appears that everyone here would have loved it as much as I - based on that recent post.

Well the good news is that there is a general ASI conference coming up in August - maybe we can all meet there.

in Christ,

Bob

[ClubV12]

Debbym, I didn't respond to your post in another thread comparing attributes of how each one of us might deal with issues in the Church. Nor will I copy any part of it here. I never even wanted to mention it, but it came up and due to the nature of this thread it had to be dealt with. Believe me, it pains me to have done that. I love you as a Sister in Christ and am sorry consequences for my or your small mistakes remain a reality in this world.

It's a polarizing moment... When the end comes, there will only two groups. Everyday we are firming our foundation for one or the other.

[JoeMo]

Quote:

I made ONE simple comment about how in MY opinion, "balance" will only be found by applying the principles of the Spirit of Prophecy. Which GREATLY upset you and your immediate response was one of ridicule not only of ME, but the EG White Estate and the organized Seventh-day Adventist Church

.

Sorry, I don't think I ridiculed anyone.

Quote:

Which it should be noted you are not a member of

I am a member.

Quote:

do not attend that Church

I do attend an SDA church about twice a month as a teacher and/or a praise leader.

Quote:

do not follow the Sabbath School lesson of that Church.

Lots of churches have SS classes that don't use the quarterly.

Please calm down, Club. If I said things that upset you so badly, I apologize to you. It was not my intent.

[JoeMo]

Please remember there are non-SDA's here as well. This type of outburst is not a good witness. If you have issues with me, please take it offline to a PM. Thanks.

[debbym]

Quote:

I never even wanted to mention it, but it came up and due to the nature of this thread it had to be dealt with. Believe me, it pains me to have done that. I love you as a Sister in Christ and am sorry consequences for my or your small mistakes remain a reality in this world.

this is a very meaningful conversation in view of this examination of Balance.

i think i am missing something... i don't know why you should be in any pain about the content, i don't see why you should be feeling compelled to deal with it.

i get that you believe if i show patience and bear with things instad of taking action that i am failing to do whatever needs to be done.

But i want you to know, God is working with everyone, just as he is working with you and I.

and sometimes God will lead you and teach you something without someone needing to come get involved in your stuff.

i have learned to not follow every reaction and impulse i have to correct someone or fix their thinking or behavior. I believe this leads to more imbalance. to imagine i am appointed to do this is additional imbalance. and i would be setting an example to the person i would be correcting that then they are to go and do likewise and it would just potentially increase the population of people going around fixing other people.

when it is the work of the Holy Spirit to bring awareness of their sin, and to reveal the Great mercy and goodness of God that will turn their heart. and if God uses me to bless them int heir journey, it is likely i will not know he is using me.

i generally am kept busy enough just living for Him, and dealing with my own stuff is too much if i also become preoccupied with anyone else's.

God has everyone and everything very well in hand, we do not have to fret and fear.

[ClubV12]

Sigh,,, OK then, lets deal with it!

You posted that my comment about "patience and brotherly love" was directed toward you. You were correct, not specifically directed toward you, but understandably "close enough". Which in turn provoked several others to immediately come to your defense. In so doing, adding their weight to the dog pile of condemnation on myself. That rude man victimizing the poor lady syndrome. "Mob rule", pitch forks, tar, feathers. "Internet Bullying" is the modern term, "false sympathizers" is what the Spirit of Prophecy calls it. Other terms Sister White would use are "sentamentalism". A word, by the way, if you noticed, was met with horror because HOW can one POSSIBLY love without it? Such is the ignorance and misunderstanding of what love really is. Why? Because people don't study the gift of prophecy, that just make stuff up as they go along. People are PROFOUNDLY lacking in their ability to distinguish real love from false love (sentamentalism, false sympathy, brotherly love incorrectly applied). I'm not saying YOU Debby, I make that observation for a LOT of people on this thread and in this forum however!

Regardless of what you MEANT to say, the fact remains, you directly compared two methods of dealing with problematic people within the Church.

A. Patience and love.

B. Show them the door.

One attribute was for you and one was for me. Again, regardless of what you MEANT to say, or imply, that IS the way it came across. I accept with deepest sincerity your apology for any misunderstanding in that regard. And I offer my apology to you as well, without excuse.

HOWEVER, "consequences" remain when mistakes are made, sincere mistakes or not, still, there is a direct connection between mistakes and blessing or curse that will surely follow. In this case, the mistake added fuel to the fire of ridicule, the "Mob" was driven to madness and sought to defend the lady so rudely treated. God is no respector of persons, a mistake by the tenderest young maiden is treated the same with the rudest of barbarians. That too, is love!

Many STILL do not even understand WHAT happened here! They can't figure out HOW they chastised, ridiculed, denigrated ANYBODY! The EG White Estate, the Church, the Spirit of Prophecy OR myself! Thats amazing,,, we will need eye salve in a ten gallon drum!

I didn't start this fire, my original post stands true. The ONLY way to find balance is to apply the principles of the gift of prophecy in conjunction with humility, teachable spirit and prayer. If you reject the gift, there is no hope of finding spiritual balance. Your prayers for such enlightenment will stop at the ceiling of your room (as per Ellen White). You have been GIVEN the gift of knowledge already and have rejected it! How presumptous to ask for something else instead, something more pleasing that tickles your ears.

There is certainly a place, FIRST place, for patience and brotherly love. There is also a time to show people the door. I will not assume that time and place for you, I would expect the same courtesy.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

I have been a member here on CA for about 1.25 years now. Many (if not most) threads here in the Theological Townhall eventually evolve (or devolve) into some form of debate on "saved by works" or "saved by grace" (example "saved from our sin" or "saved in our sin"). I confess that I have been guilty of exclusively professing the "saved by grace" message.

Others with whom I have the most "lively" discussions almost exclusively take the opposite side of that position.

What do you think?

I really don't think anyone here believes they are "saved by works" vs "saved by grace."

One *does* good works out of a conviction that *that* is a good, moral and just thing to do. But it certainly doesn't guarantee real estate in heaven.

On the other hand, if one is touting that he is "saved by grace" but does no good works and is a nincompoop, he probably isn't going to have a doorway to heaven, either.

[BobRyan]

I have been a member here on CA for about 1.25 years now. Many (if not most) threads here in the Theological Townhall eventually evolve (or devolve) into some form of debate on "saved by works" or "saved by grace" (example "saved from our sin" or "saved in our sin").

[BobRyan]

Cheap grace is the facade of a covering - that will evaporate on the day of judgment because it claims that grace is a covering for sin - not a solution for it. It claims that one is just fine - when in fact Rev 3 states that they are blind to their own condition.

"All is well - we are all just fine - peace and safety" - is a message that is spoken of a lot in the Bible.

Laying a claim to sin "in general" but in real life repenting and actually turning away from nothing specific week by week - is a form of cheap grace if one is claiming that this sort of thing is acceptable with God. Just repeating the same sins every week is not the Romans 8 form of Christianity. Rather it looks like the last part of Philippians 3.

Quote:

Phil 3

16 Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing.

17 Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample.

18 (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ:

19 Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)

20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:

A careful reading of 1Cor 6 can be instructive on that point.

in Christ,

Bob

[JoeMo]

Quote:

One *does* good works out of a conviction that *that* is a good, moral and just thing to do. But it certainly doesn't guarantee real estate in heaven.

On the other hand, if one is touting that he is "saved by grace" but does no good works and is a nincompoop, he probably isn't going to have a doorway to heaven, either.

You have restated my cunundrum excellently, Pam. I agree that no one "in practice" believes that we we can lean exclusively on grace and neglect works altogether or vice-versa. But several of us post like we do. Where is the balance between the two when we discuss things so we don't waste time in a lot of the useless bickering that goes on here? Or is it a lost cause and/or waste of time?

[skyblue888]

As a people we have no excuse if today we are still debating these things. The Lord has spoken to us "in clear, distinct lines" in regard to these matters, in regard to the relation between faith, grace, works, merits, and reward and yet for the majority of us it is as though He had not.

[OzarkWoman]

Lots of churches have SS classes that don't use the quarterly.

I attend Sabbath classes that does not use the quarterly. For that I am ever so thankful.

[OzarkWoman]

One *does* good works out of a conviction that *that* is a good, moral and just thing to do. But it certainly doesn't guarantee real estate in heaven.

On the other hand, if one is touting that he is "saved by grace" but does no good works and is a nincompoop, he probably isn't going to have a doorway to heaven, either.

[joeb]

I believe a lot of our issues here is because we don't see one another as friends, or have even seriously tried to get to know one another. We, and I include myself, have come here to argue viewpoints, and thus we see only each other's expressed point of view. That expressed point of view is often not the only thing that person believes because they are emphasizing something that they see as missing in the whole.

Now, JoeMo and I have been on opposite sides of the fence on many discussions here about the law. We have expressed completely opposing ideas. But, guess what? I finally made a serious effort to reach out and let JoeMo understand exactly who I am and where I am coming from.

You know what happened from that? We found out that we came to trust each other. He came to understand that beneath my love of the law of God is a profound love and trust in God. I also came to understand that beneath JoeMo's emphasis on the grace of God lies an understanding of God's redemptive power from sin and an experience with God.

IOW's, people, JoeMo and I have become friends who pray for each other and have a lot of respect for each other.

If this forum is ever going to fulfill its purpose, and that purpose is to draw each of us closer to each other and to God, then we need to get know each other. We need to become friends. If we do not do that then this place will continue to be a battleground, not a way to support and learn from each other.

That is the balance we need. The balance of God's love for each other. All other issues will then be solved.

God doesn't call on us to fight to overcome sin. He calls on us to get to know Him, the people around us, and to share His love. That is how we overcome sin. We replace bad habits with good habits and behaviors by focusing on what God would have us to do, rather than focusing on the negative, on what God doesn't want us to do. You don't believe this? It's all through the Bible and the SOP. Ask God to open your eyes to this when you read and you'll see it.

[skyblue888]

Grace is obtained by exercising faith in the merits of a crucified and risen Saviour that it may work in and through us both to will and to do God's pleasure. (Phil.2:13) It is not for us to make sure there is a balance between grace and works. This is not our work but God's work. Our work is to rest in the merits of Christ and then grace accomplishes everything as it brings the love (righteousness) of Christ into the heart and love is the fulfillment of the law. (Rom.3:25;5:5;13:10)

And the works that are wrought in and through us by the grace of the Holy Spirit do not play a part in the salvation of the soul or in merit for we are accepted through the merits of Christ alone.

sky

[ClubV12]

Paul addressed some of these issues with the Corinthian Church. His conclusion was that harmony, friendship, unity will not be found as long as there remain differences in the doctrines. The Corinthians were teaching some false doctrine and they were told to stop. To come into harmony on those points with the rest of the body of believers. His counsel is especially applicable to off shoots and those who have shunned the organized Church today, just as the Corinthians were doing.

Thats why the Jews were a peculiar people, called out, set aside, special. So it is today with the Seventh-day Adventist Church. Being friends and being brothers are two different things. Our mission is to call people out of Babylon, out of Corinth as Paul would put it.

[joeb]

Paul addressed some of these issues with the Corinthian Church. His conclusion was that harmony, friendship, unity will not be found as long as there remain differences in the doctrines. The Corinthians were teaching some false doctrine and they were told to stop. To come into harmony on those points with the rest of the body of believers. His counsel is especially applicable to off shoots and those who have shunned the organized Church today, just as the Corinthians were doing.

Thats why the Jews were a peculiar people, called out, set aside, special. So it is today with the Seventh-day Adventist Church. Being friends and being brothers are two different things. Our mission is to call people out of Babylon, out of Corinth as Paul would put it.

And you think you can do that through judgmentalism. That's exactly how the Jews of Christ's day operated, and He condemned their ideas as being a huge perversion of the law of God. The Jews were set apart by God to show the world the love of God. You know, the essence of both His law and His character, and they failed miserably at their mission.

The only time you have any influence over another person is if they trust and like you. If they despise you they will never listen to a word you say. You have missed the entire point of both Christ's and Paul's teachings.