The Obedience of Christ!

[Gibs]

Well Gerry if you believe EGW whole heartedly, yes,

Clad in the vestments of humanity, the Son of God came down to the level of those he wished to save. In him was no guile or sinfulness; he was ever pure and undefiled; yet he took upon him our sinful nature. Clothing his divinity with humanity, that he might associate with fallen humanity, he sought to regain for man that which, by disobedience, Adam had lost for himself and for the world. In his own character he displayed to the world the character of God. He pleased not himself, but went about doing good. His whole history, for more than thirty years, was one of pure, disinterested benevolence. By his words, his influence, and his example, he made men feel that it was possible for them to return to their loyalty and be reinstated in God's favor. He led them to see that if they repented, if their characters were transformed after the divine similitude, they would win immortality. {RH, December 15, 1896 par. 7}

I find the scripture makes it clear to me the same. I can't see how it could be any other way as for Him to have taken any advantage I know Satan would have capitalized on that.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

1Jo 4:5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.

1Jo 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

[joeb]

Can you honestly say you can sinlessly obey as Christ obeyed?

Gerry,

Are you in heaven yet? If not, how's that Christianity thing working out for you? Not too well, I guess, since you're not in heaven.

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

Can you honestly say you can sinlessly obey as Christ obeyed?

Gerry,

Are you in heaven yet? If not, how's that Christianity thing working out for you? Not too well, I guess, since you're not in heaven.

That's why I can never count on my performance to add to what He did to get me in.

[Gerr]

Well Gerry if you believe EGW whole heartedly, yes,

Clad in the vestments of humanity, the Son of God came down to the level of those he wished to save. In him was no guile or sinfulness; he was ever pure and undefiled; yet he took upon him our sinful nature. Clothing his divinity with humanity, that he might associate with fallen humanity, he sought to regain for man that which, by disobedience, Adam had lost for himself and for the world. In his own character he displayed to the world the character of God. He pleased not himself, but went about doing good. His whole history, for more than thirty years, was one of pure, disinterested benevolence. By his words, his influence, and his example, he made men feel that it was possible for them to return to their loyalty and be reinstated in God's favor. He led them to see that if they repented, if their characters were transformed after the divine similitude, they would win immortality. {RH, December 15, 1896 par. 7}

Do you think she was saying that Christ was born selfish? Already born with the tendency to do evil?

[joeb]

That's why I can never count on my performance to add to what He did to get me in.

Gerry,

And that's why I trust Jesus to change me. I don't trust in my performance, but in His ability to change me. I trust His power, not mine. I trust His promises, not mine. The same trust you put in Him to keep His promise of a life in heaven, I put in Him to change me so that I'm fit to live with Him in heaven when I get there.

As an edit:

And trust Him to make me fit to rightly represent Him while here on earth. The fact that He's not done with me yet doesn't affect my trust in Him to complete His work in me.

[Gerr]

And trust Him to make me fit to rightly represent Him while here on earth. The fact that He's not done with me yet doesn't affect my trust in Him to complete His work in me.

Is the future completion of His work in you what gets you in to heaven?

[joeb]

Originally Posted By: joeb

And trust Him to make me fit to rightly represent Him while here on earth. The fact that He's not done with me yet doesn't affect my trust in Him to complete His work in me.

Is the future completion of His work in you what gets you in to heaven?

God's work in us and for us is all that gets any of us into heaven.

Don't try to separate justification from sanctification, or you no longer have righteousness by faith. You end up with nothing more than cheap grace that justifies sin, not the sinner.

You might read Dietrich Bonhoeffer on the above in The Cost of Discipleship. He presents a very convincing case on it.

[Gerr]

God's work in us and for us is all that gets any of us into heaven.

Don't try to separate justification from sanctification, or you no longer have righteousness by faith. You end up with nothing more than cheap grace that justifies sin, not the sinner.

You also said this:

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Gerry,

And that's why I trust Jesus to change me. I don't trust in my performance, but in His ability to change me. I trust His power, not mine. I trust His promises, not mine. The same trust you put in Him to keep His promise of a life in heaven, I put in Him to change me so that I'm fit to live with Him in heaven when I get there.

How is that trust working out for you? No more sinning?

[Gibs]

Gerry, you and all who "want" to believe that a man must continue in sin is a misnomer.

We are free to do His will or the advasaries will. Choose ye this day whom ye will follow.

He freely forgives at true repentance and tell us, "go sin no more" less a worse thing come upon you.

Joh 5:14 Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.

When we commit a sin we choose to do so. Is that a sign we are not fully born again? It surely is a sign that the old man hasn't been killed yet, or that you up and resurrected the ole boy again.

Ro 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Ro 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

" Christ presented the cross to His disciples. "If any man will come after Me," He said, "let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me." The cross must be lifted by all who receive Christ as their Saviour. God does not forgive sin to encourage us to continue in sin. It is to bring sin to a close, that the divine nature may take possession of the being, and the riches of heaven be poured into mind and heart. God has made every provision that the divine resources may flow freely, and we are to deem no sacrifice too costly in order that the treasures of truth may be given to the world. To fall short of this is a betrayal of sacred trust. {ST, March 1, 1899 par. 8}

Want a STRONG one from EGW, read,

" I ask the impenitent, What greater evidence do you want that God is a God of justice? If the sword of justice woke in its might against the Fellow of the Almighty, and was not sheathed until bathed in the blood of God's only begotten Son, what will be the punishment of those who refuse to accept the atoning sacrifice? When the Son of God interposed in man's behalf, and humbled Himself on Calvary, angels drew back in amazement. Can those for whom this great sacrifice was made escape the wrath of God if they are indifferent to this great salvation? Those who choose to continue in sin will be without a shadow of excuse. Calvary is the only argument that will be used against them. -337 {18MR 336.4}

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

1Jo 4:5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.

1Jo 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

[Gerr]

Gerry, you and all who "want" to believe that a man must continue in sin is a misnomer.

We are free to do His will or the advasaries will. Choose ye this day whom ye will follow.

The last time a doctor tapped your patellar tendon, how much control did you have over your knee-jerk reaction? Why don't you tap it now and see how much control you have.

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He freely forgives at true repentance and tell us, "go sin no more" less a worse thing come upon you.

Joh 5:14 Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.

When we commit a sin we choose to do so. Is that a sign we are not fully born again? It surely is a sign that the old man hasn't been killed yet, or that you up and resurrected the ole boy again.

How long does it take for a crucified man to die? How long does it take to turn an aircraft carrier around 180degrees? Is a believer lost because the crucified old man is not totally dead yet?

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Ro 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Ro 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Does a holy flesh come out of the baptismal water?

BTW, you did not answer my question - was Jesus born selfish? Was He born with evil tendencies?

[Gibs]

I would suggest Gerry that you in implicit faith take hold of His promised Power in you to not have that knee jerk to continue in sin.

I did answer your question of Jesus taking our sinful nature and coming down to our level!

Yes, He positively did, it had to be or He could not be our substitute and Satan would have made capital of that and Christ would have lost by default!

If and when you are born again it is not of the flesh, it is of His Spirit and then if you don't resurrect self, the body of sinful flesh to be Master again and His Spirit continues the Master you walk with Him victorious over all your past failings into sin.

Get a hold of Him and do that and live, it is the only hope for any. To continue in sin is fatal!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

1Jo 4:5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.

1Jo 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

[Gerr]

I would suggest Gerry that you in implicit faith take hold of His promised Power in you to not have that knee jerk to continue in sin.

I don't think you realize how thoroughly sin has infected the human body!

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I did answer your question of Jesus taking our sinful nature and coming down to our level!

Yes, He positively did, it had to be or He could not be our substitute and Satan would have made capital of that and Christ would have lost by default!

So you are saying Christ had lustful desires and other evil tendencies like the rest of the children of Adam?

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If and when you are born again it is not of the flesh, it is of His Spirit and then if you don't resurrect self, the body of sinful flesh to be Master again and His Spirit continues the Master you walk with Him victorious over all your past failings into sin.

Get a hold of Him and do that and live, it is the only hope for any. To continue in sin is fatal!

To LIVE in sin is fatal!

If the body you came out of the baptismal water is no longer sinning, congratulations! As for me, all I can see is how woefully short I am from what I ought to be. So my ONLY hope is in the merits of the obedience of Christ and not my obedience even with His help, which was without taint of sin.

[joeb]

Originally Posted By: joeb

God's work in us and for us is all that gets any of us into heaven.

Don't try to separate justification from sanctification, or you no longer have righteousness by faith. You end up with nothing more than cheap grace that justifies sin, not the sinner.

You also said this:

Quote:

Gerry,

And that's why I trust Jesus to change me. I don't trust in my performance, but in His ability to change me. I trust His power, not mine. I trust His promises, not mine. The same trust you put in Him to keep His promise of a life in heaven, I put in Him to change me so that I'm fit to live with Him in heaven when I get there.

How is that trust working out for you? No more sinning?

[Gerr]

Like I said, Gerry, I trust Him to complete the work of changing me. Whether I'm perfect or not today doesn't mean He can't complete the work in me in this lifetime.

When do you think the work of changing us is completed?

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Ellen White tells us that when we know God as it is our privilege to know Him our lives will be ones of continual obedience. I believe her, I'm working every day to get to know God better, with the goal of knowing Him as well as it is my privilege to know Him.

Isn't that what every true believer is striving for?

She also said this -

Righteousness is obedience to the law. The law demands righteousness, and this the sinner owes to the law; but he is incapable of rendering it. The only way in which he can attain to righteousness is through faith. By faith he can bring to God the merits of Christ, and the Lord places the obedience of His Son to the sinner's account. Christ's righteousness is accepted in place of man's failure, and God receives, pardons, justifies, the repentant, believing soul, treats him as though he were righteous, and loves him as He loves His Son. This is how faith is accounted righteousness; and the pardoned soul goes on from grace to grace, from light to a greater light. He can say with rejoicing, "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; which He shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; that being justified by His grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life" (Titus 3:5-7). {FW 101.1}

While we can never be saved without obedience, OUR obedience, even obedience prompted by the HS, can NEVER ADD one iota of merit to what Jesus has already done!!! How was Abraham accounted perfectly righteous? By/through faith! BEFORE he had done anything good!

While I believe that in this life a believer can to the point that he will no longer intentionally sin, yet as long as we as we are still living in this "body of death", we will continue to sin. Guaranteed!

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You're not going to destroy my trust in God. With all the changes and healing He's done in my life up to this point, I'd be a fool to believe He can't complete the work He's started.

God is mightier than sin, our sinful nature, and the devil. I'm sorry that you don't think so. It's your loss.

God forbid that I should be doing anything to destroy your faith!!! My purpose is the exact opposite of what you think I'm doing!

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Psalm 37:4 Delight thyself also in the LORD; and he shall give thee the desires of thine heart.

The desire of my heart is to reflect His goodness and love. He's promised to give me the desire of my heart. I believe Him.

The point is God has fulfilled His promise!!! He offers the perfect righteousness/obedience of Jesus!!! Do you think you can somehow add to it? I obey, YES! But when I do something good, upon further reflection, I find that somehow some "self" has insinuated itself into an outwardly perfectly righteous act!

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John 15:7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.

I ask every day that I might be like Him. He's promised that my prayer will be answered.

Exactly what I pray for everyday!

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I'm sorry you cannot believe the clear words of scripture. I'm sorry you think God's promises are something He's not going to keep.

It is precisely because I believe His promise of a "righteousness FROM God" that I am responding in this thread. That righteousness is perfect, the only one acceptable to God. Nothing can be added to it. That is Good News!

[Gibs]

His righteousness is applied at true repentance and those are covered by His merits, but no future ones are that you might do.

But then why go on in sin after repentance and being born again? Continue to be dead of the old man of sin and let only Him who now dwells in you be the Master.

We fall and fail when we put Him away and resurrect self again to take over as master.

Your safety and true walk with Him is only by making and keeping Him the Master in you and you will not sin. Your life must be to please Him in all that you do and think.

That is faith that works by love.

We want to be of Him, for Him and with Him in all things, totally free men and women within His entire will for us.

Our constant Spiritual companion who is our strength and stay and quickening to sort truth from error. He is also our impervious covering!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

1Jo 4:5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.

1Jo 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

[Gerr]

His righteousness is applied at true repentance and those are covered by His merits, but no future ones are that you might do.

I think you better think through what you have just said! When Jesus hung on the Cross, was His shed blood only for the sins that were past? No hope for those who would sin afterwards?

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But then why go on in sin after repentance and being born again? Continue to be dead of the old man of sin and let only Him who now dwells in you be the Master.

ESV | ý1 Jn 5:17 All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that does not lead to death.

Is it your view that every time you did ANYTHING wrong you lose your salvation?

[Gibs]

Gerry think about what you posted.

When you come to Him and repent He forgives you of all you repented of.

Then if you go out and continue in sin you must come again and repent.

Never are you forgiven in advance, that is saved always saved.

"Will sins which have once been forgiven, ever be charged again to the sinner's account? If the soul whose sins have been forgiven abides in Christ, he remains justified, and he is sanctified by the Holy Spirit; but if he continues in sin, he cuts himself off from communion with God, and, unless he repent, his sins are reckoned unto him in full, and the wrath of God abideth on him. The forgiven of God must abide in Christ, in faith and obedience. If he shows by his conduct that he has left his first love, he is walking in the darkness from which he was once delivered, and needs to repent and do again his first works. "But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin." {RH, December 9, 1890 par. 6}

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

1Jo 4:5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.

1Jo 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

[Gerr]

The blood of Jesus is for ALL past, present, and future sins, although I agree with you that personal application of that forgiveness depends on repentance.

You did not answer my last question - do you lose your salvation everytime you slip up?

[Guest]

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My answer is an absolute "yes!"

How's it workin' out with you Gibs?

An impertinent question. Because nobody needs to know that, at this point, except God. Not even Gibs needs to know.

And you would attack him for his answer either way. Whether he said yay, or nay.

[Gibs]

The blood of Jesus is for ALL past, present, and future sins, although I agree with you that personal application of that forgiveness depends on repentance.

You did not answer my last question - do you lose your salvation everytime you slip up?

Well if you "slipped" up and fell back into the old wallow, you need to get up quick and repent again and this time set the jaw tighter as flint to not continue in sin as it just may happen you sinned and then probation is over and Oh my it is over!

The crux of this is, just how dead to self and the old man are we? Are we truly born fully a new spiritual man in Him?

What are we clinging to? None of the old is to be clinged to, cast it away so far and hard it is not retrievable!

He is your true and faithful guide and walking with Him you will be in a safe path, it isn't slippery so you won't slip, just stay on that path.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

1Jo 4:5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.

1Jo 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

[Planey]

...to not continue in sin as it just may happen you sinned and then probation is over and Oh my it is over!

I can't agree with this idea.

I thought we had an assurance of salvation.

Not a yo-yo type of unsurety...

Graeme

[Gibs]

Well Planey, that is the way so many are at it, it is called contimuing sin.

There is not a shadow of doubt that when probationary time is over and you Have unforgiven not repented of sin your case is bad.

Men would if they could make it so they could get into Heaven while holding onto sin and would do that and some think they can!

"Satan will come in many ways to tempt the soul away from Christ. He will first tell you that you are good enough of yourself; that you do not need a work of reformation wrought for you. He will suggest to you that you have made but few mistakes in your life, and that these will be overbalanced by the good you have done. If you have lived such a life as he would make you believe you have, it would be like a chain with unsound links in it, wholly worthless. One sin unrepented of is enough to close the gates of heaven against you. It was because man could not be saved with one stain of sin upon him, that Jesus came to die on Calvary's cross. Your only hope is to look to Christ and live. He came to save to the uttermost all who came unto him; and he is fully able to do all that he has undertaken to do for you. He will lift us up from the degradation into which we have fallen because of sin. {ST, March 17, 1890 par. 2}

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

1Jo 4:5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.

1Jo 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

[debbym]

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Well if you "slipped" up and fell back into the old wallow, you need to get up quick and repent again and this time set the jaw tighter as flint to not continue in sin as it just may happen you sinned and then probation is over and Oh my it is over!

we cannot decide to repent then just do it. we cannot decide to just stop sinning and do it. you cannot decide you will be God's child and it becomes so.

repentance is a gift of the Spirit, the victory over sin, is from receiving and accepting Christ victory and making it your own by faith love and surrender under the influence and working of the Holy Spirit.

Redemption is God and man working together, because they have been restored through His Love. God's love is expressed in the power of the merits of Jesus' Sacrifice, and the power of the Resurrection.

God is mighty to save, we can do nothing to save ourselves, but receiving Him and surrendering our will to Him.

[Gibs]

Deb,

He pulls you to repentance and if you do fully and allow Him only to be Master in the soul temple He right away will keep you from falling. He then immediately is your strength and stay

The big and hard thing is not resurrecting self and you fall again. You must have a death of the old man and be born again of His Spirit, Christ in you.

Ro 6:1 ¶ What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

Ro 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Ro 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Ro 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Col 1:26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:

Col 1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

Col 1:28 Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

1Jo 4:5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.

1Jo 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

[CoAspen]

Their is nothing to fear but fear itself.Give up and let Christ take it away...fear that is!