The Obedience of Christ!

[Gibs]

True enough, when He is allowed to be Master and we are born anew of His Spirit we are assured.

Php 4:13 I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

1Jo 4:5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.

1Jo 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

[Gerr]

True enough, when He is allowed to be Master and we are born anew of His Spirit we are assured.

Php 4:13 I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me

Through my faith in Christ I have already fulfilled the law! God has accepted "The Obedience of Christ" in place of my repeated failures, and treats me as though I have not one blemish in my life. That is how God made it possible for us to do the impossible - receive "the obedience of Christ" as our own. And, yes, those who receive it will walk as He walked, but achieve His perfection? Not in this flesh.

ESV | ýRo 8:1 "There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus."

As soon as a believer sins even inadvertently, is he no longer "in Christ" and therefore under condemnation?

Gibs, I see no peace and assurance in the kind of good news you are advocating. You are still trying to add a little of your achievement to the completed perfect righteousness of Christ that He offers to every believer.

[Gibs]

Gerry,

I see deeply imbedded in you what I term the "new theology" and so I want now give you a little of EGW's see of this,

"Chap. 153 - Building with God

For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building. 1 Corinthians 3:9. {HP 159.1}

This figure represents human character, which is to be wrought upon point by point. Each day God works on His building, stroke upon stroke, to perfect the structure, that it may become a holy temple for Him. Man is to cooperate with God, striving in His strength to make himself what God designs him to be, building his life with pure, noble deeds. {HP 159.2}

Man works and God works. Man is called upon to strain every muscle and to exercise every faculty in the struggle for immortality, but it is God who supplies the efficiency. God has made amazing sacrifices for human beings. He has expended mighty energy to reclaim man from transgression and sin to loyalty and obedience, but He does nothing without the cooperation of humanity. . . . It is by unceasing endeavor that we maintain the victory over the temptations of Satan. . . . {HP 159.3}

No one is borne upward without stern, persevering effort in his own behalf. All must engage in the warfare for themselves. Individually we are responsible for the issue of the struggle; though Noah, Daniel, and Job were in the land, they could deliver neither son nor daughter by their righteousness. . . . {HP 159.4}

Often the training and education of a lifetime must be discarded, that one may become a learner in the school of Christ. Our hearts must be educated to become steadfast in God. We are to form habits of thought that will enable us to resist temptation. We must learn to look upward. The principles of the Word of God--principles that are as high as heaven and that compass eternity--we are to understand in their bearing on our daily life. Every act, every word, every thought, is to be in accord with these principles. {HP 159.5}

The precious graces of the Holy Spirit are not developed in a moment. Courage, fortitude, meekness, faith, unwavering trust in God's power to save, are acquired by the experience of years. By a life of holy endeavor and firm adherence to the right the children of God are to seal their destiny. {HP 159.6}

You see Faith if it has not the works is dead. Really not faith at all!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

1Jo 4:5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.

1Jo 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

[joeb]

It is precisely because I believe His promise of a "righteousness FROM God" that I am responding in this thread. That righteousness is perfect, the only one acceptable to God. Nothing can be added to it. That is Good News!

[Gerr]

First, do you think increasing font size, changing colors, and underlining text will make your argument more impressive? /quote]

Do you ever underline a book you read? Or use different colors?

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It's also precisely because I believe God's promises of righteousness that I responded to this thread. I can add nothing to His work. He gets all the credit. His imparted righteousness is just as perfect as His imputed righteousness. It lacks nothing. We need both, and God is capable of perfecting us.

Is the righteousness that is placed in your account finished?

Is the righteousness that is imparted in you finished right now? No more bad habits to unlearn or get rid off?

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I'm sorry you think He can't do that, but that's your right. It's also my right to accept God's promises of changing our hearts so that we will walk in His statutes and judgements and do them. He doesn't give His people promises that He can't keep..

It is precisely because we cannot produce righteousness that satisfies the demands of the law that He gives us HIS righteousness.

"Righteousness is obedience to the law. The law demands righteousness, and this the sinner owes to the law; but he is incapable of rendering it. The only way in which he can attain to righteousness is through faith. By faith he can bring to God the merits of Christ, and the Lord places the obedience of his Son to the sinner’s account. Christ’s righteousness is accepted in place of man’s failure, and God receives, pardons, justifies, the repentant, believing soul, treats him as though he were righteous, and loves him as he loves his Son. This is how faith is accounted righteousness; and the pardoned soul goes on from grace to grace, from light to a greater light. He can say with rejoicing, "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour, that being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life." {RH, November 4, 1890 par. 7}

The Review and Herald; The Advent Review and Sabbath Herald; Review and Herald. 2002.

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I really don't see why you think sanctification and justification are at odds with each other,

I am at a loss how you could ever construe from what I have said that justification and sanctification are antithetical.

When a sinner receives Christ, he receives His perfect righteousness. He is counted as perfect. Can you add anything more to that? But God doesn't leave the sinner the way he is. He starts the purification process (sanctification). Like a huge onion, sinful habits are peeled off one by one. Like a newborn child he has to grow and learn to walk. Does a toddler walk as well as his father? Or is it your view that they are all peeled off at the time of baptism? That after baptism the new Christian is off and running in the Christian life?

Sanctification as I understand it is never the basis of salvation. It is the result, the proof that one has been justified.

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So with the followers of Christ. We can receive of heaven’s light only as we are willing to be

emptied of self. We cannot discern the character of God, or accept Christ by faith, unless we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. To all who do this the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ “dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily, and in Him ye are made full.” Colossians 2:9, 10, R. V. DofA 181

How are we made full? "IN HIM!"

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Notice, Gerry, that we must "consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ" before we can even accept Christ or discernt the character of God. What's that say about your idea that our thoughts cannot be brought into harmony with God?

Of course!!! No one can be justified without total surrender to Christ. But total surrender does not mean will never sin again.

It was possible for Adam, before the fall, to form a righteous character by obedience to God’s law. But he failed to do this, and because of his sin our natures are fallen and we cannot make ourselves righteous. Since we are sinful, unholy, we cannot perfectly obey the holy law. We have no righteousness of our own with which to meet the claims of the law of God. But Christ has made a way of escape for us. He lived on earth amid trials and temptations such as we have to meet. He lived a sinless life. He died for us, and now He offers to take our sins and give us His righteousness. If you give yourself to Him, and accept Him as your Saviour, then, sinful as your life may have been, for His sake you are accounted righteous. Christ’s character stands in place of your character, and you are accepted before God just as if you had not sinned. {SC 62.2}

White, E. G. (1892). Steps to Christ (62). Pacific Press Publishing Association.

The character is revealed, not [bEGIN P.58] by occasional good deeds and occasional misdeeds, but by the tendency of the habitual words and acts. {SC 57.2}

White, E. G. (1892). Steps to Christ (57–58). Pacific Press Publishing Association.

[Gerr]

Gerry,

I see deeply imbedded in you what I term the "new theology" and so I want now give you a little of EGW's see of this,

New theology? I am quite certain that what I am saying is what the Bible teaches. It goes to back to the OT.

ESV | ýGe 15:6 And he believed the LORD, and he counted it to him as righteousness.

ESV | ýRo 4:10 "How then was it counted to him? Was it before or after he had been circumcised? It was not after, but before he was circumcised."

Did he lose his salvation when he fibbed about his wife?

"The character is revealed, not [bEGIN P.58] by occasional good deeds and occasional misdeeds, but by the tendency of the habitual words and acts." {SC 57.2}

White, E. G. (1892). Steps to Christ (57–58). Pacific Press Publishing Association.

In no way am I advocating loose living. A believer should/must live in obedience, but that is the result of having received His righteousness, and his success in keeping the law is never the basis for one's entrance into heaven.

[Woody]

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White, E. G. (1892). Steps to Christ (62). Pacific Press Publishing Association.

Not to be picky or anything -

But Pacific Press didn't publish Steps to Christ in 1892. Might want to check out SDA history on this issue. :)

[joeb]

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I am at a loss how you could ever construe from what I have said that justification and sanctification are antithetical.

You attack my posts saying God's promises to change us so that we will walk in His statues, laws, and judgements and tell me justification is the only thing and that I'm somehow self-righteous and attempting to add something to God's righteousness for believing His promises. And you wonder why I get that from your posts?

God will change us into His image as fast as we will allow Him to. The more we surrender to Him the more He changes us. There's no limit to that, except in your mind. There's no limit to the power of God except in your mind. In your mind your fallen nature trumps the power of God to change us, to recreate us in His image.

It matters not to you that that we are placed in contact with the divine nature through our relationship with God. That's one of the prime reasons Christ came.

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“The prince of this world cometh,” said Jesus, “and hath nothing in Me.” John 14:30. There was in Him nothing that responded to Satan’s sophistry. He did not consent to sin. Not even by a thought did He yield to temptation. So it may be with us. Christ’s humanity was united with divinity; He was fitted for the conflict by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. And He came to make us partakers of the divine nature. So long as we are united to Him by faith, sin has no more dominion over us. God reaches for the hand of faith in us to direct it to lay fast hold upon the divinity of Christ, that we may attain to perfection of character. Desire of Ages p. 123

Christ came to do what? Make us partakers of the divine nature. What did that nature do for Christ? Nothing in Him responded to temptation. Not even a thought. And what does Ellen White say next? That so it may be with us.

You want to argue with that, be my guest. All you'll be doing is playing dueling quotes making Ellen White be in conflict with herself.

What did Paul say in relation to sin having dominion over us once we accept Christ?

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Romans 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Sin no longer has dominion over us. We do not have to follow it. We no longer have to obey it. We have every power to fight sin that Christ had if we will surrender ourselves as He did.

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Jesus continued: “That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.” By nature the heart is evil, and “who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? Not one.” Job 14:4. No human invention can find a remedy for the sinning soul. “The carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.” “Out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies.” Romans 8:7; Matthew 15:19. The fountain of the heart must be purified before the streams can become pure. He who is trying to reach heaven by his own works in keeping the law is attempting an impossibility. There is no safety for one who has merely a legal religion, a form of godliness. The Christian’s life is not a modification or improvement of the old, but a transformation of nature. There is a death to self and sin, and a new life altogether. This change can be brought about only by the effectual working of the Holy Spirit. DofA p 172

The Christian's life is what, Gerry? Not a modification. Not an improvement. It's a transformation of nature. What nature? Our fallen nature into the image of the divine nature that Christ came to make available to all who desire it.

This is where we differ, Gerry. You seem to think our fallen nature must rule us, but it is to be transformed, Gerry, into the image of divine nature.

[Gerr]

Please show the post where I said God can't change us and that I said you are being self-righteous, so I can properly apologize. If you can't show it but that is your perception of what I said, I apologize anyway. What I am contending is that as long as we are in this body of sin, there is no way we can come to the point where we no longer do anything wrong.

Joeb, if you think you can achieve perfection with God's help other than accepting the perfect righteousness of Christ, be my guest.

I believe God can change us. I believe a believer can come to the point of no longer premeditatively commit a sin, but until we receive a perfect body (glorification), I will continue to come short of the righteousness that the law demands. So my only hope is in the righteousness that is reckoned to me.

[joeb]

Please show the post where I said God can't change us and that I said you are being self-righteous, so I can properly apologize. If you can't show it but that is your perception of what I said, I apologize anyway. What I am contending is that as long as we are in this body of sin, there is no way we can come to the point where we no longer do anything wrong.

Joeb, if you think you can achieve perfection with God's help other than accepting the perfect righteousness of Christ, be my guest.

I believe God can change us. I believe a believer can come to the point of no longer premeditatively commit a sin, but until we receive a perfect body (glorification), I will continue to come short of the righteousness that the law demands. So my only hope is in the righteousness that is reckoned to me.

[Gibs]

Jesus made it so we can have His exact obedience, as He came as low as we are and overcome as our example. He took no more power than is ours when we are converted and Truly born again.

Actually we have an advantage as the evil ones are able to see Him dwelling within and know they don't have a chance as He overcame them before.

They just test you to see if you will resurrect self and when they see Christ only is allowed to be the Master in you, you now have won the battle.

Col 1:26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:

Col 1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

Col 1:28 Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

1Jo 4:5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.

1Jo 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

[Gerr]

I think further discussion with you is futile. You say I called you self-righteous, but you could not produce the proof.

Now you say I have been setting justification against sanctification when I have not done any such thing, at least consciously anyway. If so, show me. You won't find me claiming that sanctification is MY work either. We are God's workmanship, but the cleansing process from all the sinful habits and inborn tendencies that I have are not removed overnight, it's a lifetime process. The problem is me in my sinful flesh, not lack of God's power.

[Gerr]

Jesus made it so we can have His exact obedience, as He came as low as we are and overcome as our example. He took no more power than is ours when we are converted and Truly born again.

Yes, Jesus came in the flesh after 4000 years of degeneration from Adam. He was not as strong as Adam. He became tired, thirsty, hungry, and sleepy like the rest of us. But the Bible is clear. He came in the [color:#3333FF]likeness

of sinful flesh, but He was conceived of the HS. He was called "that holy thing" (Lk 1:35). None of us was conceived by the HS or born holy, so Jesus was not altogether like us. EGW is pretty clear when she said:

"Be careful, exceedingly careful as to how you dwell upon the human nature of Christ. Do not set Him before the people as a man with the propensities of sin. He is the second Adam. The first Adam was created a pure, sinless being, without a taint of sin upon him; he was in the image of God. He could fall, and he did fall through transgressing. Because of sin his posterity was born with inherent propensities of disobedience. But Jesus Christ was the only begotten Son of God. He took upon Himself human nature, and was tempted in all points as human nature is tempted. He could have sinned; He could have fallen, but not for one moment was there in Him an evil propensity. He was assailed with temptations in the wilderness, as Adam was assailed with temptations in Eden.

Avoid every question in relation to the humanity of Christ which is liable to be misunderstood. Truth lies close to the track of presumption. In treating upon the humanity of Christ, you need to guard strenuously every assertion, lest your words be taken to mean more than they imply, and thus you lose or dim the clear perceptions of His humanity as combined with divinity. His birth was a miracle of God; for, said the angel, “Behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: and he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end. Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man? And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.”

These words do not refer to any human being, except to the Son of the infinite God. Never, in any way, leave the slightest impression upon human minds that a taint of, or inclination to, corruption rested upon Christ, or that He in any way yielded to corruption. He was tempted in all points like as man is tempted, yet He is called “that holy thing.” It is a mystery that is left unexplained to mortals that Christ could be tempted in all points like as we are, and yet be without sin. The incarnation of Christ has ever been, and will ever remain a mystery. That which is revealed, is for us and for our children, but let every human being be warned from the ground of making Christ altogether human, such an one as ourselves; for it cannot be. The exact time when humanity blended with divinity, it is not necessary for us to know. We are to keep our feet on the Rock Christ Jesus, as God revealed in humanity."

The Seventh-day Adventist Bible Commentary, Volume 5. 1980 (F. D. Nichol, Ed.) (1128–1129). Review and Herald Publishing Association.

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Actually we have an advantage as the evil ones are able to see Him dwelling within and know they don't have a chance as He overcame them before.

We have an advantage over Christ?

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They just test you to see if you will resurrect self and when they see Christ only is allowed to be the Master in you, you now have won the battle.

Gibs, even physically crucified persons do not die immediately. Killing the "old man" spiritually is the work of a lifetime.

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Col 1:26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:

Col 1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

Col 1:28 Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

Righteousness is obedience to the law. The law demands righteousness, and this the sinner owes to the law; but he is incapable of rendering it. The only way in which he can attain to righteousness is through faith. By faith he can bring to God the merits of Christ, and the Lord places the obedience of his Son to the sinner’s account. Christ’s righteousness is accepted in place of man’s failure, and God receives, pardons, justifies, the repentant, believing soul, treats him as though he were righteous, and loves him as he loves his Son. This is how faith is accounted righteousness; and the pardoned soul goes on from grace to grace, from light to a greater light. He can say with rejoicing, "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour, that being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life." {RH, November 4, 1890 par. 7}

That's my only hope of perfection - "perfect in Christ."

[Gibs]

Gerry, yes we must be dead of the old man and now, not later, not partially, but completely, NOW!

If not you are not born completely a new man of the Spirit of Christ, you are still choosing to allow and to cling to pet things of the old man. That is proof the conversion is not complete.

Read carefully and with understanding Romans chapter 6:

Clad in the vestments of humanity, the Son of God came down to the level of those he wished to save. In him was no guile or sinfulness; he was ever pure and undefiled; yet he took upon him our sinful nature. Clothing his divinity with humanity, that he might associate with fallen humanity, he sought to redeem for man that which by disobedience Adam had lost, for himself and for the world. In his own character Jesus manifested to the world the character of God; he pleased not himself, but went about doing good. His whole history, for more than thirty years, was of pure, disinterested benevolence. {RH, August 22, 1907 par. 1}

Notice, He killed self! He didn't live to please self!

He not only saved Himself but also all who will come and be His in the Way He has made. And that Way is the wonderful victorious Way.

We are His and we will be His Subjects, His Kingdom, He has bought us and He will be our King eternally in a new earth soon comming.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

1Jo 4:5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.

1Jo 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

[Gerr]

The "old man" will never be totally dead as long as your physical body has breath! If you think yours is dead, good for you.

[Gibs]

Gerry, it is gratification that demands pleasing of the old man. Jesus refused to gratify self, we must too and He gives you His power to do so.

He had the same tugging to pull Him astray as we as He took upon Himself our fallen sinful nature.

Deny gratification in all it's forms to please Him first and the old man stays dead as far as ruling in your soul temple.

He knows how to succour you as the same tugging nagged Him no doubt more severe than we ever will experience. Satan saw to that and Jesus would not gratify Himself even for bread to eat.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

1Jo 4:5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.

1Jo 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

[joeb]

I think further discussion with you is futile. You say I called you self-righteous, but you could not produce the proof.

Now you say I have been setting justification against sanctification when I have not done any such thing, at least consciously anyway. If so, show me. You won't find me claiming that sanctification is MY work either. We are God's workmanship, but the cleansing process from all the sinful habits and inborn tendencies that I have are not removed overnight, it's a lifetime process. The problem is me in my sinful flesh, not lack of God's power.

Gerry,

I wasn't trying to insult you, but it seems as if I have. I'm sorry. I apologize. I'm just saying how what you wrote came across to me. I just didn't go back and copy and paste what I saw is all. If it's that important to you that I do that, I will.

As to the self-righteous bit, when you start asking me questions like, how's that working for you, I see it as a definite personal attack as I've never claimed to be perfect and your entire argument seems to have been based on the idea that I think I am.

I'll ask you to point out where I've said all our sinful tendencies are overcome over night. I've never said it, yet it much of what you says addresses that position. In other words, Gerry, you've been setting up straw men and knocking them down.

When I read scripture and the SOP I take it as a whole. If there a passages that seem to be in conflict I look for a way to harmonize them, and to make all of the true. Thus, when Ellen White says Christ came to perfect our characters and that we may obey our Heavenly Father just like Christ did I take that statement as truth. I don't try to find a way to falsify that position by arguing against it with other statements of hers. I look for ways how both statements can be true. I do the same with scripture. When Jesus, or our heavenly Father, tell us that they are going to make a way for us to be obedient, that we can obey the law of God, that we can live, or have such an attitude, that we will be in violation of no law, I believe it. I don't question it.

You seem to take offense at that and that I'm somehow going off a deep end somewhere and somehow. I don't understand why. Jesus lived His life of obedience by living according to Scripture and said we are to do the same. He told us to be perfect as our Father in heaven is perfect. I don't believe He would set us up to fail, but in the position you've taken that's exactly what He's done. If He said we're to do it, it must be possible by the power of God. Otherwise He's basically lying to us. But the Bible tells us that God cannot lie, so what He said has to be possible.

[Gerr]

Gerry,

I wasn't trying to insult you, but it seems as if I have. I'm sorry. I apologize. I'm just saying how what you wrote came across to me. I just didn't go back and copy and paste what I saw is all. If it's that important to you that I do that, I will.

No,I did not feel insulted, but it was distressing to me that even though I have tried to carefully choose my words so as not to insult or antagonize anyone, I still failed.

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As to the self-righteous bit, when you start asking me questions like, how's that working for you, I see it as a definite personal attack as I've never claimed to be perfect and your entire argument seems to have been based on the idea that I think I am.

I was only playing back to you what you said to me - "Are you in heaven yet? If not, how's that Christianity thing working out for you? Not too well, I guess, since you're not in heaven."

[Gerr]

I'll ask you to point out where I've said all our sinful tendencies are overcome over night. I've never said it, yet it much of what you says addresses that position. In other words, Gerry, you've been setting up straw men and knocking them down.

You should know by now that Gibs thinks he can become perfectly obedient without blemish just like Jesus did. So when I read your statement like this:

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Like I said, Gerry, I trust Him to complete the work of changing me. Whether I'm perfect or not today doesn't mean He can't complete the work in me in this lifetime. Ellen White tells us that when we know God as it is our privilege to know Him our lives will be ones of continual obedience. I believe her, I'm working every day to get to know God better, with the goal of knowing Him as well as it is my privilege to know Him.

You're not going to destroy my trust in God. With all the changes and healing He's done in my life up to this point, I'd be a fool to believe He can't complete the work He's started.

God is mightier than sin, our sinful nature, and the devil. I'm sorry that you don't think so. It's your loss.

I took that to mean you were of the same mind as him. Since you have come out and said otherwise, that was a mistaken conclusion on my part. My apologies for that.

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When I read scripture and the SOP I take it as a whole. If there a passages that seem to be in conflict I look for a way to harmonize them, and to make all of the true. Thus, when Ellen White says Christ came to perfect our characters and that we may obey our Heavenly Father just like Christ did I take that statement as truth. I don't try to find a way to falsify that position by arguing against it with other statements of hers. I look for ways how both statements can be true. I do the same with scripture. When Jesus, or our heavenly Father, tell us that they are going to make a way for us to be obedient, that we can obey the law of God, that we can live, or have such an attitude, that we will be in violation of no law, I believe it. I don't question it.

I think we have different views on obedience. The obedience of Christ was without blemish. Mine is not. I may be doing good works on a continuing basis but my good works not infrequently are tainted with self.

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You seem to take offense at that and that I'm somehow going off a deep end somewhere and somehow. I don't understand why. Jesus lived His life of obedience by living according to Scripture and said we are to do the same. He told us to be perfect as our Father in heaven is perfect. I don't believe He would set us up to fail, but in the position you've taken that's exactly what He's done. If He said we're to do it, it must be possible by the power of God. Otherwise He's basically lying to us. But the Bible tells us that God cannot lie, so what He said has to be possible.

Why should I take offense if you believe differently? Yes, Jesus told us that we are to be "perfect as our Father in heaven is perfect." Now tell me how a fallen human can be perfect in the exact manner as the God of ultimate perfection is other than accepting the perfection of Christ placed into our account?

[Gibs]

None, not one will ever have the obedience of Christ unless he is completely dead of the old man, self. He is very hard for us to kill until we put Christ first and best over the rascal, self.

Self keeps demanding gratification and in many forms and ways. When ever we fall or slip back into the old wallow of self you will see that you then put self first and best.

Christ is first and best, set it in the heart and soul and don't veer from it. Because without Him we are nothing. Yes powerless.

To not keep Him first and best, you have cast Him out and down you go, splat into the old wallow again!

Romans 6: is such a good read that a few verses here are appropriate,

Ro 6:1 ¶ What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

Ro 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Ro 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Ro 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Ro 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Ro 6:8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:

Ro 6:10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.

Ro 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Ro 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

Notice "lusts thereof." That is gratification, self, to obey it is to deny Christ.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

1Jo 4:5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.

1Jo 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

[Planey]

You've nigh on convinced me, Gibs.

You saints don't need a selfish old reprobate like me around to taint you.

I reckon I might be out of here soonish.

Graeme

[Ted Oplinger]

You've nigh on convinced me, Gibs.

You saints don't need a selfish old reprobate like me around to taint you.

I reckon I might be out of here soonish.

Graeme

No, Graeme, we old selfish reprobates need to stick together. Don't be too quick to leave....still praying....

Blessings,

[joeb]

I took that to mean you were of the same mind as him. Since you have come out and said otherwise, that was a mistaken conclusion on my part. My apologies for that.

[Gerr]

None, not one will ever have the obedience of Christ unless he is completely dead of the old man, self. He is very hard for us to kill until we put Christ first and best over the rascal, self.

Sounds like bad news to me. Old man totally dead after baptism? Why then did Paul say - I die daily?

[Gerr]

You still have me confused. It sounds to me that on the one hand you are saying you can't be perfect but on the other hand, you are saying, yes, through God's power I can.

Will I be as perfect as God in my new body? Is there any aspect of God that needs improvement? Does He need to grow? In our new bodies, will we have room for growth? Will we love as deeply as God.