The Obedience of Christ!

[joeb]

Also, if Christ had taken our fallen nature, He could never have been called by Holy Spirit "that holy thing" while still in the womb, for He would have been sinful while there just as we are. David said, Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; in sin did my mother conceieve me. That also applies to you and I. It does not apply to Christ. Thus, no fallen nature, and no propensity to sin.

Christ came to lift us up to His level. He came to make us the partakers the divine nature. Since you and Gerry are both using Ellen White, I'll add a quote too.

Quote:

Christ is called the second Adam. In purity and holiness, connected with God and beloved by God, He began where the first Adam began. Willingly He passed over the ground where Adam fell, and redeemed Adam’s failure.—The Youth’s Instructor, June 2, 1898.

Where did Christ begin? Where the first Adam began, in purity and holiness.

The statement is incontrovertible. If you believe in Ellen White's prophetic gift you must accept that Christ started life on this earth with the same spiritual nature Adam did when he was first created.

[Gibs]

Joe, if EGW isn't respected of her opinion on this, how do you fit this into your stance?

Heb 2:17 Wherefore in - ALL - things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

Heb 2:16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

Even later than the seed of David,

Ro 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

Is not His Word Truth? Or what is the Rock to stand upon then?

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

1Jo 4:5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.

1Jo 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

[8thdaypriest]

A "perfect" cow" was not a "perfect" horse. They were different - yet each in it's own right was "very good."

A "perfect" newborn, is not the same as a "perfect" 3 yr old, is not the same as a "perfect" 37 year old, etc. etc.

A "perfect" angel will not be the same as a "perfect" human being, who will not be God.

We are talking about DIFFERENT stages of development, and DIFFERENT creatures.

We can be perfect at any moment and yet be growing - always becoming. For us there is no "end point" beyond which we do not grow. But we can "grow" forever and never reach the greatness of our God.

prophecyviewpoint.com

[8thdaypriest]

Here's where I believe the difference came:

I believe that Christ was indwelt by the Spirit of His Father, FROM the moment of conception.

He would have been a sweet and absolutely wonderful two year old. I believe His mother SAW the difference and knew something was different about Him.

He and His Father shared one spirit.

We are NOT so indwelt. WHY? Because the LORD will knock at the door, but will not "come in" unless invited.

He will plead, but will not enter - without invitation, without surrender.

Soooo - Christ DID have an advantage.

But the Father allowed a test that was much greater, much more severe than any of us will EVER be called upon to pass.

Christ was born with our nature.

"Human nature without the divine nature is carnal." (Can't remember the reference. Been away from EGW a long time.

THAT is what makes the difference - the indwelling of the divine nature.

The indwelling of the Spirit -

Christ shared the Spirit of His Father.

Christ had the human nature WITH the indwelling of the divine nature of His Father.

We do NOT - until we invite Him in.

We do this in increasing stages - like developing a friendship.

To HIM the Spirit was given "without measure."

prophecyviewpoint.com: See the study titled "Dominion."

[Gibs]

8thdaypriest,

When we have truly repented and truly born again then His full power dwells in us and we are new creatures and dead of the old man of sin.

If sin then reigns in us we can know we were not truly born again of Him being the Master in us as the Father was the only Master in Him that He only obeyed.

We then have the Divine nature also. Christ in you is it!

Col 1:26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:

Col 1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

Col 1:28 Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

1Jo 4:5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.

1Jo 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

[Gerr]

Joe, if EGW isn't respected of her opinion on this, how do you fit this into your stance?

Heb 2:17 Wherefore in - ALL - things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

Heb 2:16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

Had Jesus been born with a craving for cocaine (sin), He would not have been the "Lamb without blemish", and therefore an unfit sacrifice. Had He been born with lust already in His heart, He himself would have needed a savior!

Notice what Paul who also wrote Hebrews says in Rom 8:3 "likeness of sinful flesh".

From ALL fleshly appearances, He was like any man, but without the taint of sin morally and spiritually.

[Gibs]

Hebrews 2:17 stands solid and cannot be gainsaid or controverted by a rational mind and Spirit.

Heb 2:17 Wherefore in - ALL - things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

Notice EGW agrees.

"The example He has left must be followed. He took upon His sinless nature our sinful nature, that He might know how to succor those that are tempted. {MM 181.3}

So I would suggest washing the face in real cold water for a wake up to clear up the obstacle in the soul temple.

I perceive though that you will defend your position to the death.

I do hope you become an overcomer.

Take care, I'm done with you on this subject.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

1Jo 4:5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.

1Jo 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

[Gerr]

Paul who wrote Hebrews was very careful and clear when he said this to the Romans:

ESV | ýRo 8:3 For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh...

Notice that he didn't say, "sending his own Son in sinful flesh." If, as you claim, it was the Father that came IN Jesus, can you imagine the Father coming in the flesh with the propensity to lust?

[Gibs]

Bye, bye, Gerry,

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

I pray that you are Blessed by that little study.

Blessed and refreshed. There is one point that does not appear in the OP, the knowledge which I believe to be essential for a correct understanding of overcoming power in the lives of fallen human beings.

Jesus did not come to reveal that fallen man could overcome temptation in his own strength, but that Adam before his yielding to temptation, could have gained the victory in his own strength, that strength given to him from the Father at Adam's creation, before he fell.

All of man's (the human race's) condition since Adam's failure is wrapped up in this Word;

"Can an Ethiopian change the color of his skin? Can a leopard take away its spots? Neither can you start doing good, for you have always done evil."Jeremiah 13:23 NLT

The remedy is found here as it is yoked to confession, repentance, and continuous cleansing with the blood of Jesus, and through abiding with Him, all gifts of the Spirit that comes with our submission.

"...for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure."

Philippians 2:13 NASB

God cares!

[Gerr]

Bye, Gibs.

[Gibs]

It would be good for all coming to this thread and click on page one and read my starting thread post.

It would settle a lot of questions in many minds I am sure.

Since I am here I do care to add some more council from Sister White,

" The obedience of Christ to His Father was the same obedience that is required of man. Man cannot overcome Satan's temptations without divine power to combine with his instrumentality. So with Jesus Christ; He could lay hold of divine power. He came not to our world to give the obedience of a lesser God to a greater, but as a man to obey God's Holy Law, and in this way He is our example. The Lord Jesus came to our world, not to reveal what a God could do, but what a man could do, through faith in God's power to help in every emergency . Man is, through faith, to be a partaker in the divine nature, and to overcome every temptation wherewith he is beset. {OHC 48.3}

The Lord now demands that every son and daughter of Adam, through faith in Jesus Christ, serve Him in human nature which we now have. The Lord Jesus has bridged the gulf that sin has made. He has connected earth with heaven, and finite man with the infinite God. Jesus, the world's Redeemer, could only keep the commandments of God in the same way that humanity can keep them. {OHC 48.4}

We are not to serve God as if we were not human, but we are to serve Him in the nature we have, that has been redeemed by the Son of God; through the righteousness of Christ we shall stand before God pardoned, and as though we had never sinned. {OHC 48.5}

The humanity of the Son of God is everything to us. It is the golden chain that binds our souls to Christ, and through Christ to God. {OHC 48.6}

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

1Jo 4:5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.

1Jo 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

[Gerr]

Since I am here I do care to add some more council from Sister White,

" The obedience of Christ to His Father was the same obedience that is required of man. Man cannot overcome Satan's temptations without divine power to combine with his instrumentality. So with Jesus Christ; He could lay hold of divine power.

[color:#3333FF]

Welcome back. She also said this on how to meet the requirement of the Father:

"Righteousness is obedience to the law. The law demands righteousness, and this the sinner owes to the law; but he is incapable of rendering it. The only way in which he can attain to righteousness is through faith. By faith he can bring to God the merits of Christ, and the Lord places the obedience of his Son to the sinner’s account. Christ’s righteousness is accepted in place of man’s failure, and God receives, pardons, justifies, the repentant, believing soul, treats him as though he were righteous, and loves him as he loves his Son. This is how faith is accounted righteousness; and the pardoned soul goes on from grace to grace, from light to a greater light. He can say with rejoicing,

The Review and Herald; The Advent Review and Sabbath Herald; Review and Herald. 2002.

[Gibs]

You only get Christ's robe of righteousness by faith once you have repented and are born again.

That is the only remedy for the sin you have committed, He covers you and then He tells you go sin no more.

Joh 5:14 Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.

Now do you suppose He told him something that He didn't enable him to do.

You can come in all your need, and plead the merits of a crucified and risen Saviour; but you cannot come expecting that Christ will cover your wickedness, your daily indulgence in sin, with his robe of righteousness. The people of God are to be as branches grafted into the living Vine, to be partakers of the nature of the Vine. If you are a living branch of the true Vine, Jesus will prove you by trial, by affliction, that you may bring forth fruit more abundantly. {BEcho, May 15, 1892 par. 8}

This goody-goody religion that makes light of sin and that is forever dwelling upon the love of God to the sinner, encourages the sinner to believe that God will save him while he continues in sin and he knows it to be sin. This is the way that many are doing who profess to believe present truth. The truth is kept apart from their life, and that is the reason it has no more power to convict and convert the soul. There must be a straining of every nerve and spirit and muscle to leave the world, its customs, its practices, and its fashions. . . . {3SM 155.1}

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

1Jo 4:5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.

1Jo 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

[joeb]

Quote:

Well Gerry EGW thinks Jesus did take upon Him our sinful nature too and for my money it was prerequisite for Him to do so. I agree He did not have a propensity or any tendency of sin. He did not bow to it.

You're talking in circles again, Gibs. You say he didn't have any propensity to sin, and then say He didn't bow to it. Not to have a propensity to sin is completely different than not bowing to a propensity to sin.

[joeb]

Here's where I believe the difference came:

I believe that Christ was indwelt by the Spirit of His Father, FROM the moment of conception.

He would have been a sweet and absolutely wonderful two year old. I believe His mother SAW the difference and knew something was different about Him.

He and His Father shared one spirit.

We are NOT so indwelt. WHY? Because the LORD will knock at the door, but will not "come in" unless invited.

He will plead, but will not enter - without invitation, without surrender.

Soooo - Christ DID have an advantage.

But the Father allowed a test that was much greater, much more severe than any of us will EVER be called upon to pass.

Christ was born with our nature.

"Human nature without the divine nature is carnal." (Can't remember the reference. Been away from EGW a long time.

THAT is what makes the difference - the indwelling of the divine nature.

The indwelling of the Spirit -

Christ shared the Spirit of His Father.

Christ had the human nature WITH the indwelling of the divine nature of His Father.

We do NOT - until we invite Him in.

We do this in increasing stages - like developing a friendship.

To HIM the Spirit was given "without measure."

prophecyviewpoint.com: See the study titled "Dominion."

I see very little, if anything I would disagree with here. I like it.

[Gibs]

Joe,

Your comment here is double talk

"You're talking in circles again, Gibs. You say he didn't have any propensity to sin, and then say He didn't bow to it. Not to have a propensity to sin is completely different than not bowing to a propensity to sin".

He could have bowed to it the same as you and I once we are born again it is either you obey His Spirit in you as Christ did or self.

He did not bow to allowing Himself to be the Master, He only bowed to the Spirit of the Father in Him

" Having taken our fallen nature, He showed what it might become, by accepting the ample provision He has made for it, and by becoming partaker of the divine nature.--Special Instruction Relating to the Review and Herald Office, and the Work in Battle Creek, May 26, 1896, p. 13. {7ABC 453.6}

" Christ assumed our fallen nature, and was subject to every temptation to which man is subject.--Ms 80, 1903, p. 12. {17MR 29.4}

Christ became one with the human family--bone of our bone and flesh of our flesh. . . . He pledged Himself to endure all the temptations that man must endure, that He might know how to succor those who are tempted.--Ms 102, 1903, p. 7. {17MR 29.5}

The majesty of heaven stepped down from His royal throne, gave up His authority as Commander in the heavenly courts, laid aside His kingly robe and crown, and clothed His divinity with humanity, that He might take on Himself the weakness of human nature. This He did that He might give men an example of true humility. {17MR 29.6}

Only by living a sinless life while clad in the garb of humanity, could Christ, as man's Substitute and Surety, bear the burden of the sin of a fallen world. He was to suffer, being tempted in all points upon which fallen men are tempted, that by His own experience He might become acquainted with the temptation of humanity, and know how to succor those who are most severely tempted.--Ms 107, 1903, p. 5. {17MR 29.7}

It would have been impossible for Him to be tempted in all points as we are if He had not taken our fallen nature and become like unto His brethren.

Heb 2:17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

ALL, ALL ALL!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

1Jo 4:5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.

1Jo 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

[Gerr]

Heb 2:17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

ALL, ALL ALL!

KJV 1900 | ýRe 13:3 ".....and ALL the world wondered after the beast."

Will that include you, Gibs?

ESV | ý1 Jn 3:5 "You know that he appeared in order to take away sins, and in him there is no sin."

[Gibs]

That is ALL of the world in Satan's camp in that instance Gerry. Are you of the world? I hope not. I am in the world but not of the world.

ALL in the case of, Heb 2:17 , means every single last one of things as His brethren.

"We have no hesitancy in telling you that in order to obtain the immortal inheritance and the eternal substance, you must be overcomers in this probationary life. Everything that blots and stains the soul must be removed, must be cleansed from the heart. We must know what it means to be a partaker of the divine nature, having escaped the corruptions that are in the world through lust. Are you willing to wage war against the lusts of the flesh? Are you ready to battle against the enemy of God and man? Satan is determined to enslave every soul if he can; for he is playing a desperate game to win the souls of men from Christ and eternal life. Will you permit him to steal from you the graces of the Spirit of God, and plant in you his own corrupt nature? or will you accept the great provision of salvation, and through the merits of the Infinite Sacrifice made in your behalf, become a partaker of the divine nature? God has given His only-begotten Son, that through His shame, suffering, and death, you might have glory, honor, and immortality."--Signs of the Times, June 15, 1891. {TDG 175.2}

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

1Jo 4:5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.

1Jo 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

[Gibs]

The obedience of Christ stemmed from taking on Himself our lowliness and the strength of Adam.

He would have failed if He had of bowed to self one time. But He would not bow to allowing self to ever be the Master, He allowed only the Spirit of the Father in Him to be His Master.

Please read Sister Whites quote about this,

"He Stood the Test as a True Human Being.--We need not place the obedience of Christ by itself as something for which He was particularly adapted, by His particular divine nature, for He stood before God as man's representative and tempted as man's substitute and surety. If Christ had a special power which it is not the privilege of man to have, Satan would have made capital of this matter. The work of Christ was to take from the claims of Satan his control of man, and He could do this only in the way that He came--a man, tempted as a man, rendering the obedience of a man . . . . {3SM 139.3}

Bear in mind that Christ's overcoming and obedience is that of a true human being. In our conclusions, we make many mistakes because of our erroneous views of the human nature of our Lord. When we give to His human nature a power that it is not possible for man to have in his conflicts with Satan, we destroy the completeness of His humanity. His imputed grace and power He gives to all who receive Him by faith. The obedience of Christ to His Father was the same obedience that is required of man. {3SM 139.4}

I personally do not know how that could be gainsaid!

Gainsay in Greek,

antepo an-tep'-o

from 473 and 2036; to refute or deny:--gainsay, say against.

See Greek 473

See Greek 2036

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

1Jo 4:5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.

1Jo 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

[Gerr]

Which man was she talking about? The Adamic man or the Gerry man?

[Gibs]

Gerry she is talking about the man, Jesus of course!

[Gerr]

Gerry she is talking about the man, Jesus of course!

Let me rephrase the question. The humanity of Christ, was it of Adam's nature BEFORE his fall or AFTER, just like Gerry's?

[Gibs]

Hear Dennis Priebie out, RLH gave you the link.

In short Christ took on Himself the fallen nature actually of the seed of David, more degraded than that of Adam.

The whole crux of this matter is to understand just how Christ was able to overcome Satan and be victorious.

He well knew that He of Himself having to not use the Divinity vested in Him His advantage would have to be not allowing Himself, the spirit of fallen man in Him to be Master at any time, not for an instant.

He had the Spirit of the Father in Him and allowed Him only to be the Master.

We must do the same, Christ in you, born again, is the one and same Spirit of God in you. We must keep self the old man crucified, dead if you will and allow Christ's Spirit in you ONLY to be the Master and we too will be victorious!

He, Jesus and we alike have the power of the un fallen Adam when we ONLY allow His Spirit to be Master.

Eve was deceived but Adam was not, Adam disobeyed.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

1Jo 4:5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.

1Jo 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

[Gerr]

"Be careful, exceedingly careful as to how you dwell upon the human nature of Christ. Do not set Him before the people as a man with the propensities of sin. He is the second Adam. The first Adam was created a pure, sinless being, without a taint of sin upon him; he was in the image of God. He could fall, and he did fall through transgressing. Because of sin his posterity was born with inherent propensities of disobedience. But Jesus Christ was the only begotten Son of God. He took upon Himself human nature, and was tempted in all points as human nature is tempted. He could have sinned; He could have fallen, but not for one moment was there in Him an evil propensity. He was assailed with temptations in the wilderness, as Adam was assailed with temptations in Eden."

The Seventh-day Adventist Bible Commentary, Volume 7A. 1985 (F. D. Nichol, Ed.) (247). Review and Herald Publishing Association.