The Obedience of Christ!

[Gibs]

Yes Bro. we must as Paul says, "die daily" and in a day you may have to put "old hungering self" down of his gratification many times. Keeping self crucified is a must!

The Spirit of Christ in you must be made your Master by the power of your will.

Satan cannot take that away from you and one cannot have two masters.

Choose ye this day of which ye will obey and serve.

Let us choose the Greatest One!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

1Jo 4:5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.

1Jo 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

[Gerr]

None, not one will ever have the obedience of Christ unless he is completely dead of the old man, self.

Are you saying here that the righteousness/obedience of Christ is not accounted to me until after the old man is totally killed in me?

Quote:

He is very hard for us to kill until we put Christ first and best over the rascal, self.

Self keeps demanding gratification and in many forms and ways. When ever we fall or slip back into the old wallow of self you will see that you then put self first and best.

I have been led to believe from what you have posted previously that the old man is so easy to kill that it remains dead after baptism?

Quote:

Ro 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Ro 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

Notice "lusts thereof." That is gratification, self, to obey it is to deny Christ.

"RECKON," what does it mean to you?

[Gerr]

Yes Bro. we must as Paul says, "die daily" and in a day you may have to put "old hungering self" down of his gratification many times. Keeping self crucified is a must!

How can you keep crucifying someone who had already died?

[Gibs]

Reckon, to figure out.

The problem lies in that even though you've killed the old man self for the moment you can Resurrect that old rascal again. We have not won the battle yet until we pass from this life with self and that old master deceiver, Satan and his.

Like ole Father time, he, Satan is on your tail and sure don't want to loose!

Well it is up to you and the power of your will to keep self dead after being born again. Keep the mind and heart set that self is not to rule in you that the Spirit of Christ "only" will you obey and you will be OK.

Our allowed Master must always be, - - Jude 1:24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

1Jo 4:5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.

1Jo 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

[joeb]

JOEB

to answer you question

to reason---to act---to eat---to breath ---to live a life total in CHRIST

dgrimm60

I really like that, dgrimm. It's very good.

[joeb]

You still have me confused. It sounds to me that on the one hand you are saying you can't be perfect but on the other hand, you are saying, yes, through God's power I can.

Will I be as perfect as God in my new body? Is there any aspect of God that needs improvement? Does He need to grow? In our new bodies, will we have room for growth? Will we love as deeply as God.

That's the question I asked. Will we be as perfect as God is when we're in heaven? You didn't really answer it.

[joeb]

You still have me confused. It sounds to me that on the one hand you are saying you can't be perfect but on the other hand, you are saying, yes, through God's power I can.

Will I be as perfect as God in my new body? Is there any aspect of God that needs improvement? Does He need to grow? In our new bodies, will we have room for growth? Will we love as deeply as God.

I don't know what's so confusing. I do not yet have a perfect character, one modeled after Christ's, but I do believe that is available to me and to you through faith in God's promises. It's a pretty simple statement.

[joeb]

Gerry,

Let's take this discussion into a slightly different direction as I think it might help. How about discussing what we think "perfection" is to each of us? I'd be really interested in this line of thought as, if I remember correctly, you got involved in perfectionism and said you made those around you, especially your family, and yourself miserable while you were involved in it. If my memory is wrong, and it wouldn't be the first time, I'd still like to explore this area as it might clear up a few things.

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

You still have me confused. It sounds to me that on the one hand you are saying you can't be perfect but on the other hand, you are saying, yes, through God's power I can.

Will I be as perfect as God in my new body? Is there any aspect of God that needs improvement? Does He need to grow? In our new bodies, will we have room for growth? Will we love as deeply as God.

That's the question I asked. Will we be as perfect as God is when we're in heaven? You didn't really answer it.

I thought the answer is so obvious - no! Even none of the sinless angels are as perfect as God.

[joeb]

I thought the answer is so obvious - no! Even none of the sinless angels are as perfect as God.

In your mind we will never be perfect, as in as perfect as God. So, perfection in your mind is an impossibility for any created being at any time. It matters not whether they have never sinned, or have sinned, they will never be perfect.

Am I reading you correctly, as to your view on perfection?

[Gibs]

EGW's council on "perfect",

"He tells us to be perfect as He is, in the same manner. We are to be centers of light and blessing to our little circle, even as He is to the universe. We have nothing of ourselves, but the light of His love shines upon us, and we are to reflect its brightness. "In His borrowed goodness good," we may be perfect in our sphere, even as God is perfect in His. {MB 77.2}

Jesus said, Be perfect as your Father is perfect. If you are the children of God you are partakers of His nature, and you cannot but be like Him. Every child lives by the life of his father. If you are God's children, begotten by His Spirit, you live by the life of God. In Christ dwells "all the fullness of the Godhead bodily" (Colossians 2:9); and the life of Jesus is made manifest "in our mortal flesh" (2 Corinthians 4:11). That life in you will produce the same character and manifest the same works as it did in Him. Thus you will be in harmony with every precept of His law; for "the law of the Lord is perfect, restoring the soul." Psalm 19:7, margin. Through love "the righteousness of the law" will be "fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." Romans 8:4. {MB 77.3}

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

1Jo 4:5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.

1Jo 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

[Gerr]

Gerry,

Let's take this discussion into a slightly different direction as I think it might help. How about discussing what we think "perfection" is to each of us? I'd be really interested in this line of thought as, if I remember correctly, you got involved in perfectionism and said you made those around you, especially your family, and yourself miserable while you were involved in it. If my memory is wrong, and it wouldn't be the first time, I'd still like to explore this area as it might clear up a few things.

Your recollection is very good and basically correct. That was back in the mid-70's. It didn't take me long to realize the impossibility of such a journey that one day, I just got down on my knees and said, "Lord, if this is what you expect of me, count me out." The more I tried, the more obvious I saw the impossibility of it. Was I doing it on my own power? God knows I asked for divine power daily.

How do I understand perfection? I see it in two levels. One level of perfection is what Adam & Eve and the angels had at their creation. They were sinless. They had no inclination to transgress God's commandments. Yet they had room for growth. Our Lord used the plant as an example and EGW picked it up. In every stage of its development, the plant is perfect, yet it has room for growth. Had Adam tried to play an instrument for the first time, would he have made a mistake by striking a wrong note? I call this relative perfection. Relative to what?

God's perfection. Is there any aspect of God that needs growth? Improvement? He is as righteous, holy, loving as He will ever or can be. That is ultimate perfection. I see no creature ever achieving this kind of perfection.

[Gerr]

See me comment on perfection.

[Gerr]

A reflection is never as good as the original.

[Gibs]

In a nutshell, "the obedience of Christ" is expected and is a must to be in his Kingdom.

Only the overcomer will inherit that prize!

"New virtues are revealed in his character as he denies self and lifts the cross, following where Christ leads the way. He loves the Lord Jesus with his whole heart, and

152

Christ becomes his wisdom, his righteousness, his sanctification, and his redemption. {9T 151.3}

Christ is our example, our inspiration, our exceeding great reward. "Ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building." 1 Corinthians 3:9. God is the Master Builder, but man has a part to act. He is to co-operate with God. "We are laborers together with God." Verse 9. Never forget the words: "together with God." "Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure." Philippians 2:12, 13. The miracle-working power of Christ's grace is revealed in the creation in man of a new heart, a higher life, a holier enthusiasm. God says: A new heart also will I give you." Ezekiel 36:26. Is not this, the renewal of man, the greatest miracle that can be performed? What cannot the human agent do who by faith takes hold of the divine power?

-

{9T 152.1}

Remember that in working with Christ as your personal Saviour lies your strength and your victory. This is the part all are to act. Christ is the way, the truth, and the life. He declares: "Without Me ye can do nothing." John 15:5. And the repentant, believing soul responds: I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me." Philippians 4:13. To those who do this comes the assurance: As many as received Him, to them gave He power to become the sons of God." John 1:12. {9T 152.2}

"God has shown us what constitutes true manliness. It is he that overcometh who will be honored, and whose name will not be blotted out of the book of life. {CTBH 37.2}

[Gerr]

In a nutshell, "the obedience of Christ" is expected and is a must to be in his Kingdom.

fait

By faith I already have it, so why should I work for something that is freely given as a gift? Does that mean I live a disobedient life? No, we are to walk as He walked - by faith. The believer is to eat by faith, work by faith, love by faith.

Quote:

Only the overcomer will inherit that prize!

Everyone who clings to Jesus is an overcomer; and He will never cast out.

[8thdaypriest]

Some 27 years ago I really weighed down with the whole "be perfect" thing. I was having a late lunch with an evangelist friend. I asked him WHY I was still sinning. Doesn't God keep His promises? Ezekiel 36 says that He will take the heart of flesh out, and give me a new heart, and then write His law on that heart, and then I will keep His law. Sooooo? My friend just looked at me. "Read the context Rach," he said. when I got home I read. He will take us out of every country where we are scattered, and bring us into our own land. "THEN" He will do all those wonderful things. He will "circumcise" our hearts. Oooooooh This is process. We are in the process. But it won't be complete UNTIL we are gathered to "the land" which of course happens at the 8th day (because the land is desolate during the 7th millennium).

Well - that fits. Newborn Israelites WERE circumcised on the 8th day.

The LORD told Ezekiel that no uncircumcised foreigner - uncircumcised in heart or in flesh - could enter His Sanctuary.

We are circumcised in flesh at the resurrection, when the old "flesh" is gone and we have new "spiritual bodies."

Joshua led Israel across the Jordan on the 10th day of Nissan. Then he "circumcised the people" Then they ate the Passover. Newborns were NOT circumcised during the wilderness wandering. See any parallels? Yeshua will lead us across the sky. Then HE will circumcise the people. Then we will celebrate the Passover with Him in His Father's kingdom.

But because we have new spiritual bodies, we still need 1000 years before we will be healed of our exposure to death, to defensive and selfish thinking. Those who had touched a dead body were cleansed (by the water with the ashes of the Red Heifer) on the 3rd day and on the 7th day. At sundown of the 7th day, they were "clean." Christ rose the 3rd day. We spend the 7th day (millennium) in the Father House. Only THEN are we finally "clean". Until that time we must be covered by His imputed righteousness - represented by the ashes of the Red Heifer.

[Gibs]

Yes it is true we can and must attain to the obedience of Christ. We are expected to as it is a fact that He overcame from where we are as He took upon Himself our sinful fallen nature. He was made like unto His brethern.

Also He took no more power than is ours when we are TRULY born again, Christ in you is all His strength in you!

"We are under obligation to use our powers aright that we may be qualified for eternal life in the kingdom of God. God demands perfection from every human being. We are to be perfect in this life of humanity, even as God is perfect in His divine character." {TDG 318.1}

"The injunction of Christ is, "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." He here shows us that we may be as perfect in our sphere as God is in His sphere." {CD 133.2}

And we know for certain, Christ came down to our level and overcame as a fallen man and not as God and was obedient as one of us for an example of what we must be.

We MUST be overcomers!

Re 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

1Jo 4:5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.

1Jo 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

[Gerr]

Yes it is true we can and must attain to the obedience of Christ. We are expected to as it is a fact that He overcame from where we are as He took upon Himself our sinful fallen nature. He was made like unto His brethern.

Fallen nature? Yes. Sinful nature? NO!!!

"Be careful, exceedingly careful as to how you dwell upon the human nature of Christ. Do not set Him before the people as a man with the propensities of sin. He is the second Adam. The first Adam was created a pure, sinless being, without a taint of sin upon him; he was in the image of God." (lETTER 8 1895)

The Seventh-day Adventist Bible Commentary, Volume 5. 1980 (F. D. Nichol, Ed.) (1128). Review and Herald Publishing Association.

[8thdaypriest]

The LORD told Israel to enter the land. Ten spies said, "It's impossible." They were only looking at their own strength. Two spies (two witnesses) said, "We are well able to overcome it." They were trusting in HIS power.

I remember a teacher once long ago, who told us to think of a mighty river building up behind a dam. The little man in the control tower has to reach over and throw the switch. He believes that when he activates that switch, the locks will open, and the power (water) will flow thru. That little man represents our will. So very small compared to the mighty river, yet so essential.

Maybe 30 years ago now, I was struggling so hard to be "good." And I kept failing and failing and failing. In the car on the way home from work, I actually was yelling at the LORD. "This is impossible!" "I give up !!!!" So I quit trying. But I didn't stop praying. And then for the next several days I didn't get impatient. I didn't criticize anyone. Wow!! And finally I "got it." It wasn't about me TRYING. It was about me praying and then leaving it with HIM to achieve the victory. Wish I could say that I continued without fail to "leave it to HIM," but sadly I had to learn that lesson over and over and over. Every time my own efforts would get in the way - I would slip back into my old "ways."

Remember: "Every command is a promise."

[Gibs]

Originally Posted By: Gibs

Yes it is true we can and must attain to the obedience of Christ. We are expected to as it is a fact that He overcame from where we are as He took upon Himself our sinful fallen nature. He was made like unto His brethern.

Fallen nature? Yes. Sinful nature? NO!!!

"Be careful, exceedingly careful as to how you dwell upon the human nature of Christ. Do not set Him before the people as a man with the propensities of sin. He is the second Adam. The first Adam was created a pure, sinless being, without a taint of sin upon him; he was in the image of God." (lETTER 8 1895)

The Seventh-day Adventist Bible Commentary, Volume 5. 1980 (F. D. Nichol, Ed.) (1128). Review and Herald Publishing Association.

Well Gerry EGW thinks Jesus did take upon Him our sinful nature too and for my money it was prerequisite for Him to do so. I agree He did not have a propensity or any tendency of sin. He did not bow to it.

Jesus Christ did not have or take any advantage other than is ours in this battle for life.

"The example He has left must be followed. He took upon His sinless nature our sinful nature, that He might know how to succor those that are tempted. {MM 181.3}

He who does this work must put into it his whole heart; for it is a work that requires all there is of a man. He who does it as a work that is done for wages, will make an utter failure. . . . {MM 181.4}

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

1Jo 4:5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.

1Jo 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

[Gibs]

8thdaypriest,

You made some good points. Yes for sure we are nothing and the crux of it is He alone must be made the Master in our soul temples. Self cannot be allowed to rule over His Spirit indwelling in us or down we fall.

He is our strength and stay and quickening to see and understand and sort truth from error.

When we are born again of His Spirit, it is very hard at times to not resurrect that old man self that must be kept dead. This is what Paul is speaking of in Romans 6:

Ro 6:1 ¶ What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

Ro 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Ro 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Ro 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Ro 6:8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:

How I love Paul's see of things, God gave him special light to us Gentiles!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

1Jo 4:5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.

1Jo 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

[joeb]

Well Gerry EGW thinks Jesus did take upon Him our sinful nature too and for my money it was prerequisite for Him to do so. I agree He did not have a propensity or any tendency of sin. He did not bow to it.

[Gibs]

We have a sinful fallen nature Joe and when we are truly born again and truly come to hate sin and have made him the one and only master in us we have overcome the propensity to sin as He did to begin with, He would not bow to it and now with Him within we don't need to no more either.

Dead to sin like Him our example, it's the simple power of the will, will you obey His Spirit in you or will you allow self to resurrect and take on sin again.

We too when born again have His Spiritual nature and the old sinful nature that we only can keep from resurrecting.

Yes He sure did have our fallen sinful nature and the Divine nature, He just refused to resurrect that old sinful nature He took on Himself and so He had no propensity to sin.

We must do the same and we can, we have no excuse whatever!

Can you put away and keep away the propensity to sin? Yes! He made the Blessed Way!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

1Jo 4:5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.

1Jo 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

[joeb]

We have a sinful fallen nature Joe and when we are truly born again and truly come to hate sin and have made him the one and only master in us we have overcome the propensity to sin as He did to begin with, He would not bow to it and now with Him within we don't need to no more either.

Dead to sin like Him our example, it's the simple power of the will, will you obey His Spirit in you or will you allow self to resurrect and take on sin again.

We too when born again have His Spiritual nature and the old sinful nature that we only can keep from resurrecting.

Yes He sure did have our fallen sinful nature and the Divine nature, He just refused to resurrect that old sinful nature He took on Himself and so He had no propensity to sin.

We must do the same and we can, we have no excuse whatever!

Can you put away and keep away the propensity to sin? Yes! He made the Blessed Way!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

1Jo 4:5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.

1Jo 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

You can talk in circles all you want. If Christ took our fallen spiritual nature, He had the propensity to sin. There's no getting around it.