Little horn of Dan 8

[Gerr]

I have consulted over a dozen commentaries and all of them point to Antiochus Epiphanes IV as the person fulfilling this prophecy. Are SDAs alone in holding the view that this little horn represents Rome in its pagan & papal phase? Do any of you know any other commentators who hold a similar position?

[Gibs]

No one has this prophecy right yet, only the 2300 days to the time of cleansing of the sanctuary has been.

There is only one who will magnify himself to the Prince of the Host, Jesus Christ, and that will be Satan personating Christ. The Papacy has gone too far but not that far!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Samie]

No one has this prophecy right yet, only the 2300 days to the time of cleansing of the sanctuary has been.

There is only one who will magnify himself to the Prince of the Host, Jesus Christ, and that will be Satan personating Christ. The Papacy has gone too far but not that far!

...

The 2300 days, like the 70 weeks or 490 days of Dan 9, the 1290 days of Dan 12, are literal days that will find fulfillment shortly before the Second Coming. The little horn is the beast of Rev 13 = the man of sin of 2 Thes 2 = the king of fierce countenance of Daniel 8 = the vile person king of Dan 11.

And Bro Gibs, do you have time to answer my question here in this post?

[Gibs]

Hey, Samie the second beast of Rev. 13:11-18 is Satan.

2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

"That Wicked" is Anomos, means the Alpha lawless one! Satan and then the next verse lets it out,

2Th 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

The second coming reveals it to be Satan, He comes after Satan's workings.

No it is not the Pope! Notice who is the wicked one in the following verses!

Mt 13:19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.

Mt 13:38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;

1Jo 2:13 I write unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I write unto you, young men, because ye have overcome the wicked one. I write unto you, little children, because ye have known the Father.

1Jo 2:14 I have written unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one.

1Jo 3:12 Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.

1Jo 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

Satan is "THE" Antichrist, the Pope is "AN" Antichrist after his father the devil!

1Jo 4:5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.

1Jo 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[ClubV12]

The Seventh-day Adventist Church, unlike Samie, believe the 2,300 year prophecy is in fact, years, not days.

The earliest record I have found of any group who believed the little horn was Papal/Pagan Rome is from the 14th century. So this interpretation certainly did not originate with Adventists. William Miller also believed Rome was the little horn. Many have, Ellen White and our pioneers simply confirmed a belief that had been known for centuries.

I don't recall our pioneers linking this doctrine to a specific man, it is linked to a system of belief, an organization. This is in harmony with the centuries old interpretation. Consider the time frame involved, it continues well beyond the age of a single man.

This power, this system, continues to fulfill the prophecies of both Daniel and the Revelation as it sequencially unfolds through time. This in turn leads many falsely conclude it has a future or dual fulfillment. Neither is true. It is simply an unfolding prophecy that continues today.

[phkrause]

The Seventh-day Adventist Church, unlike Samie, believe the 2,300 year prophecy is in fact, years, not days.

The earliest record I have found of any group who believed the little horn was Papal/Pagan Rome is from the 14th century. So this interpretation certainly did not originate with Adventists. William Miller also believed Rome was the little horn. Many have, Ellen White and our pioneers simply confirmed a belief that had been known for centuries.

I don't recall our pioneers linking this doctrine to a specific man, it is linked to a system of belief, an organization. This is in harmony with the centuries old interpretation. Consider the time frame involved, it continues well beyond the age of a single man.

[Ted Oplinger]

Those who like to portray this as applying to Antiochus Epiphanes take a very Preterist view, in that they accept the error in order to not implicate the Papal authority as the power "which rules, but not by his own power". They also conveniently ignore the fact the time prophecy doesn't work out without significant fudging.

However, when the Lord declares the end from the beginning, He correct to the exact year...or in the case of Revelation 9:15, He is correct to the exact day. Our Living God needs no "fudge factors" to make prophetic dates work out to interpretation...

Blessings,

[Gibs]

All "Time" yr. for a day is on the one and only calendar that is yr. for a day and that of course is the Jubilee calendar and even though our pioneers didn't come to realize that the Lord led then correctly to the termination of the allotted time for the Jews and the middle od that 70'th wk. and 1844 for the termination of the 2300 days.

It astonished Daniel because the time was so very long!

Da 8:26 And the vision of the evening and the morning which was told is true: wherefore shut thou up the vision; for it shall be for many days.

Da 8:27 And I Daniel fainted, and was sick certain days; afterward I rose up, and did the king's business; and I was astonished at the vision, but none understood it.

Also it is absolutely an assured understanding that the 2300 days for a yr. ended our yr. 1844! The math is relatively simple!

I too see that Rev 9:15 means the exact hr., day, month and year to slay a third of mankind.

Yes it is a surety that our Heavenly Father sees the future into all eternity as clearly as the past and present! The proof is coming to those that don't believe that now, but they will have to wait.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Samie]

Hey, Samie the second beast of Rev. 13:11-18 is Satan.

[Gibs]

Because the false prophet is the teachers of error of which is a very dire thing, so be careful of what you teach. Satan is the head of all the false prophets same as he is THE Antichrist and then he has many an antichrist's after him their father the devil!

There is thousands of the false prophet to one of the truth prophet. The false prophet don't recognize the truth when it hits him hard and square, it is error to him.

A GOOD share of them are merchandizers of the Word and Gospel to their own evil aggrandizement.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Samie]

Hey, Samie the second beast of Rev. 13:11-18 is Satan.

Scriptures say: Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are.

Gibs is saying: And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and satan are.

Even a third grader can see the error.

[Gibs]

You are thinking Samie of the wrong beast, it is the first beast of Rev 13: that is cast in with the false prophet of which are many in it. It is a world system, not the Papacy,

Proof,

Re 13:3 And I saw ONE of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

Just one of the six heads is wounded and then we are told the whole world wonders after the beast, of which has 7 heads plus 10 horns now with the crowns, king power!

1Jo 4:5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.

1Jo 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Kevin H]

There are 3 correct ways to use scripture: First is the immediate context, and part of this is how God holds out to the people receiving the message a way how they can be active in setting up the kingdom so that in most cases either they or at most their children or grandchildren could be the last generation.

A second way is reapplying the principles of the text in an analogy to a similar situation.

The third is a homiletical use because while the event does not fit the setting of the text, the language is a perfect description.

Too often we look for the one and only one size fits all.

You have to remember we are dealing with 3 different traditions here: Historisism, which was based on ideas such as Athanasius of Alexandria and Joachim of Flore. Then we have the traditions formed by those who wanted to make everything in the Bible apply to the past, the preterits, and those who want to make it apply to the future, the futurists.

I'm too tired to continue writing right now. But these are keys that play roles. The commentaries you have turned to are focused on either the preterits school or futurists schools. I'm sure that you can probably find some more information similar to ours from historicist scholars, and may have to go back a while. But all 3 schools were before the rise of Archaeology, all 3 schools arose when no one knew when the 3rd year of Belshazzar was, he had been lost to history and was seen by skeptics as a fictional character.

[Samie]

You are thinking Samie of the wrong beast, it is the first beast of Rev 13: that is cast in with the false prophet of which are many in it. It is a world system, not the Papacy,

...

[Samie]

Speaking through experience, the best way to understand Daniel is through the instructions of our Master Teacher. His clear-cut statements in Matt 24:15-31 will lead one to the correct understanding of time prophecies in Daniel.

Want to try?

In Christ,

Samie

[Gibs]

Samie, but you need to get it correctly and many think they have. You know this as well as I, I am sure, we are going to see who had it right.

This one verse annihilates most peoples see of it,

Re 13:3 And I saw "ONE" of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and "ALL THE WORLD WONDERED AFTER THE BEAST.

Any Hillbilly will tell you "ONE" head isn't the beast!

Ah, sure, you can know ole or old 82+ Gibs is a Hillbilly! Yep, from them thar hills!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Samie]

Samie, but you need to get it correctly and many think they have. You know this as well as I, I am sure, we are going to see who had it right...

If you had it right, you should have long adequately addressed Rev 20:10. But until now, you miserably fail to address it! And you seem to be very much afraid of addressing it. Why???? It annihilates your false belief Satan is the False Prophet, the 2nd beast of Rev 13:11-18.

At 82+, it's better to accept the truth the Holy Spirit has presented you through Samie, and reject the lie of Satan = the False Prophet. If you hear His voice, harden not your heart. Overcome the evil of believing in a lie.

In Christ,

Samie

[Gibs]

I did Samie, but it runs off you and that's OK, as it is a matter of which beast is implied there, the first or second beast of Rev. 13:, one must have the right interpretation of the prophecies is the problem and of course Samie thinks he has it.

OK, run with it and I will run with mine.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[ClubV12]

I wonder if that counsel to "confront" your brother two times and then leave him alone applies in some way to an internet forum?

...just wondering...

[Gibs]

Just wondering too if when we look at these verses that we should have any problem discerning who this "little horn" is,

Da 8:8 Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.

Da 8:9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.

Da 8:10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.

Da 8:11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.

Also was it ever ironed out what the "daily" is, is it not now time to understand that if we are ever going to?

I will venture to say the "place of His sanctuary cast down" is the Holy Sabbath day, the place in time our God and Saviour come to tabernacle with us as we know that it will be Satan that will really put "teeth" in the decree to take away "this place".

I saw that the two-horned beast had a dragon's mouth, and that his power was in his head, and that the decree would go out of his mouth. Then I saw the Mother of Harlots; that the mother was not the daughters, but separate and distinct from them. She has had her day, and it is past, and her daughters, the Protestant sects, were the next to come on the stage and act out the same mind that the mother had when she persecuted the saints. I saw that as the mother has been declining in power, the daughters had been growing, and soon they will exercise the power once exercised by the mother. {SpM 1.4}

Rev 13:13-17 is quoted here, and am posting veses 11,12 before the quote of EGW,

Re 13:11 ¶ And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.

Re 13:12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.

"In Revelation we read concerning Satan: (13)"And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men, (14)and deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live. (15)And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed. (16)And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: (17)and that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name" (Revelation 13:13-17). . . . {3SM 393.1}

Re 13:18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

The Papacy has been made everything and is not quite so much as has been interpreted. Yes for sure she was the very first very apostate church structure system.

Satan will come in to deceive if possible the very elect. He claims to be Christ, and he is coming in, pretending to be the great medical missionary. He will cause fire to come down from heaven in the sight of men to prove that he is God.--MM 87, 88 (1903). {LDE 167.4}

It will be but the very few who will not be deceived! The AOD? The ultimate one for sure!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Samie]

The little horn, brethren, is the AntiChrist = the man of sin = the king of fierce countenance = the vile person king = the first beast of Rev 13. His image is the AoD. He will soon enter the arena just before the Lord returns. Follow the instructions of our Master Teacher in Matt 24:15-31, and you will correctly understand the prophecies in Daniel and related prophecies in Revelation.

In Christ,

Samie

[Gibs]

I am afraid not Samie, you surely can see the first beast of RE 13: is a system of 7 heads and 10 horns, the horns now wearing the crowns, showing they are the kings, rule the system.

Satan changed the king power, crowns from the heads before 1798 to the Horns once the deadly wound was inflicted to it's ONE head!

The AOD is and will be the ultimate abomination possible and is yet coming and will take away the "daily" and cast down the place of God's Sanctuary with His True ones.

The prophecy is really clear and easily understood as it is straight out and any symbols easy to find the meaning of.

Identify if you can what are the heads of your antichrist and what are his horns?

The identification is easy when you realize the first beast of Re 13: is the present system by which Satan puppets the world. It is a WHOLE world system!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[TrevorL]

Greetings Gerry,

I have consulted over a dozen commentaries and all of them point to Antiochus Epiphanes IV as the person fulfilling this prophecy. Are SDAs alone in holding the view that this little horn represents Rome in its pagan & papal phase? Do any of you know any other commentators who hold a similar position?

I am not a SDA, but I believe that the little horn of the goat represents Rome especially in the eastern portion of the Roman dominion. It was the pagan Roman ruler Pilate that stood up against Jesus in his crucifixion. I believe that in the future a military wing of the Roman Empire, that is the power that will assume the position of King of the North in Daniel 11:40-45 that will confront Jesus in the Middle East and come to his demise. As such I do not believe that this power is Roman Catholic or the Papacy. I believe that Daniel 7 applies to the Papacy and its opposition to the believers and to Jesus. Daniel 7 is thus Western Roman Empire, while Daniel 8 is Eastern Roman Empire. I also have a different perspective on the 2300 years, considering a major aspect of this to be from BC 333-4 to AD 1967, when the Jews recaptured Jerusalem.

Kind regards

Trevor

[Samie]

Hi Trevor;

Welcome, brother.

From Scriptures: The little horn of Dan 8 = the little horn of Dan 7 = the vile person king of Dan 11:21,36 = the man of sin of 2 Thess 2:3,4 = the beast of Rev 13. This king will rise to power shortly before the 2nd Coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and will take away the 'daily' (Dan 8:11; 11:33; 12:11) prior to the setting up the abomination of desolation (Dan 11:31; 12:11) which is the image of the beast (Rev 13:.

If you have time to do so, please take time to consider MY POSITION HERE.

[TrevorL]

Greetings Samie and others,

Welcome, brother.

From Scriptures: The little horn of Dan 8 = the little horn of Dan 7 = the vile person king of Dan 11:21,36 = the man of sin of 2 Thess 2:3,4 = the beast of Rev 13. If you have time to do so, please take time to consider MY POSITION HERE.