Little horn of Dan 8

[hch]

The little horn is responsible for the setting up of the abomination of desolation. Questions:

1. If the prophecy about the little horn had already found fulfillment in the past, then had the abomination of desolation been set up?

2. If the abomination of desolation had already been set up, when did the great tribulation occur?

3. If the great tribulation had already occurred, why has Jesus not come yet, when He explicitly said so?

Can anyone who believes the prophecy about the little horn and its exploits had already found fulfillment in the past, try to explain?

Those are some great questions. Thanks for sharing.

[Samie]

Quote:

......the great tribulation will be triggered by the setting up of the abomination of desolation.

Has anyone ever backed off and taken a good look at what is being said? Dan Brown could not do better!

I really doubt that God had in mind a great hidden meanings in all of this or intended for people to have such obsession. In the end, of what value is all of this? Is this just an other way of 'end time' predictions, ie, the coming of God?

[hch]

Personally, CoAspen, I take none of this discussion as personal; nor do I stake my salvation on it. I simply find eschatology to be a very interesting topic. It has fascinated me for 45 years. This particular thread has remained more open-minded and non-critical (in a personal way) than any on this subject in a long time. Everyone here appears to be involved in a free exchange of ideas.

Sorry for the digression.

[Samie]

If either Antiochus Epiphanes IV or Rome fulfilled prophecy as the little horn, then we are back to the questions I had earlier posted, to wit:

Quote:

The little horn is responsible for the setting up of the abomination of desolation. Questions:

1. If the prophecy about the little horn had already found fulfillment in the past, then had the abomination of desolation been set up?

2. If the abomination of desolation had already been set up, when did the great tribulation occur?

3. If the great tribulation had already occurred, why has Jesus not come yet, when He explicitly said so?

Can anyone who believes the prophecy about the little horn and its exploits had already found fulfillment in the past, try to explain?

[hch]

I have consulted over a dozen commentaries and all of them point to Antiochus Epiphanes IV as the person fulfilling this prophecy. Are SDAs alone in holding the view that this little horn represents Rome in its pagan & papal phase? Do any of you know any other commentators who hold a similar position?

Antiochus Epiphanes IV is clearly identified in Bible prophecy, but not as the little horn. He foreshadows the endtime Little horn. Unfortunately, many commentators read other commentators and share the views of the commentators rather than the Scriptures.

The same is true of the papacy. It was the little horn that plucked up three tribes in the fallen Western Roman Empire, but it is not the endtime little horn of Daniel 8. Or the final fulfillment of the little horn that Heaven's interpretation is explaining in Daniel 7. It foreshadows the endtime little horn.

But as long as God's people accept the 4 kingdoms that sealed the validity of God's word and was understood way back in the 4th century AD, in Luther's day (1500's) and in 1798 (before the book of Daniel was opened and knowledge increased), they are doomed to walk in that light. Thus when the light moves from light to greater light, if they stay put the light will move away from them and they will be in darkness.

It happened with circumcision. The truth that God gave Abraham was not the same truth in Paul's day. It happened with sacrificing animals. The truth at Adam's day, Abraham's day, and Moses' day, changed after Christ's day. And so it is with the 4-kingdoms. They were the truth that sealed Daniel 2 & 7, but they are not the endtime meaning of Daniel 2 or 7.

[hch]

If either Antiochus Epiphanes IV or Rome fulfilled prophecy as the little horn, then we are back to the questions I had earlier posted, to wit:

The little horn is responsible for the setting up of the abomination of desolation. Questions:

1. If the prophecy about the little horn had already found fulfillment in the past, then had the abomination of desolation been set up?

Before this question can be answered,

What is the abomination of desolation?

The abomination of desolation is an abomination (something that discusses God) that destroys those that believe it.

On 9/20/01 GW set up an abomination that desolates. He declared the teachings of Muslims good! they teach that salvation is possible apart from Christ. That is not good! those that attempt to get to heaven apart from Christ's atonement (sacrifice) and His oblation (accepting His sacrifice - Jesus as personal Savior) will be lost.

Likewise when Mr. Obama sets up the National Sunday Law, that will be THE ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION. Any that believe that lie will be lost.

Bible prophecy does not concern itself with being politically correct. The papacy set up an abomination of desolation when it was the ruling world power. GW set up an abomination of desolation when he was in power, and Obama will do what is prophesied of him when the appointed time arrives.

But if we don't see that apostate Protestant America has reached it hands across the gulf to clasp the hand of the Roman power, then spiritualism, and the Roman power again; and that it has repudiated every principle of the Constitution; then we don't see that the miracle working of Satan is at hand and that the end is nearer than we think.

God willing there may be some who will take a minute to dig a little deeper and be blessed while others raise their 1888 objections (that's not how I see it) and go about their business like the antediluvians.

How much better it would be if this was only my opinion rather than the summery of years of Bible Study and mounds of Spirit of prophecy evidence. But alas the sleeping church will sleep like the 5 foolish virgins until it is too late. When the call goes out that the Bridegroom is here, it will be too late to get ready to meet Him.

[Samie]

...

The same is true of the papacy. It was the little horn that plucked up three tribes in the fallen Western Roman Empire, but it is not the endtime little horn of Daniel 8. Or the final fulfillment of the little horn that Heaven's interpretation is explaining in Daniel 7. It foreshadows the endtime little horn.

But as long as God's people accept the 4 kingdoms that sealed the validity of God's word and was understood way back in the 4th century AD, in Luther's day (1500's) and in 1798 (before the book of Daniel was opened and knowledge increased), they are doomed to walk in that light. Thus when the light moves from light to greater light, if they stay put the light will move away from them and they will be in darkness.

You are right, hch.

I fully subscribe to the principle that understanding of truth is progressive. Please don't take me wrong if I ask a couple of questions to ponder:

1. Our Master Teacher referred to the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet. Was He referring to more than one abomination of desolation?

2. If Jesus was referring to only one abomination of desolation, can it likewise be said that there is ONLY one little horn responsible for its setting up?

3. If there is ONLY one little horn responsible for the setting up of the abomination of desolation, has this abomination of desolation been set up?

4. If the abomination of desolation had not yet been set up, can it still be safely said that the prophecy had partially found fulfillment in the past?

[Samie]

Originally Posted By: Samie

If either Antiochus Epiphanes IV or Rome fulfilled prophecy as the little horn, then we are back to the questions I had earlier posted, to wit:

The little horn is responsible for the setting up of the abomination of desolation. Questions:

1. If the prophecy about the little horn had already found fulfillment in the past, then had the abomination of desolation been set up?

Before this question can be answered,

What is the abomination of desolation?

The abomination of desolation is an abomination (something that discusses God) that destroys those that believe it.

On 9/20/01 GW set up an abomination that desolates. He declared the teachings of Muslims good! they teach that salvation is possible apart from Christ. That is not good! those that attempt to get to heaven apart from Christ's atonement (sacrifice) and His oblation (accepting His sacrifice - Jesus as personal Savior) will be lost.

Likewise when Mr. Obama sets up the National Sunday Law, that will be THE ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION. Any that believe that lie will be lost.

Bible prophecy does not concern itself with being politically correct. The papacy set up an abomination of desolation when it was the ruling world power. GW set up an abomination of desolation when he was in power, and Obama will do what is prophesied of him when the appointed time arrives.

...

Without any hint of offending anyone, I am just volunteering my pinch of salt as to how Scriptures describe the abomination of desolation:

In Daniel, "abomination" is from the Hebrew "shiqquts". "shiqquts" as used in the Old Testament refers to idols worshipped by pagans as deities (see 1 Kings 11:5,7; 2 Kings 23:13). Pagan idols are graven images (Greek, "eikon"; Hebrew "pecel"; Aramaic "tselem"), like the golden image that Nebuchadnezzar built (Dan 3:1). The graven image that Manasseh placed inside the temple (2 Kings 21:7; 2 Chron 33:7) God called "shiqquts" (Jer 32:34).

In the whole Bible, there is only one "shiqquts" that will cause desolation to the end-time people of God: the image of the beast in Rev 13.

Allowing Scripture to interpret itself, doesn't it look like Scriptures point to the image of the beast as fulfillment of the abomination of desolation?

[BobRyan]

The graven image that Manasseh placed inside the temple (2 Kings 21:7; 2 Chron 33:7) God called "shiqquts" (Jer 32:34).

In the whole Bible, there is only one "shiqquts" that will cause desolation to the end-time people of God: the image of the beast in Rev 13.

Allowing Scripture to interpret itself, doesn't it look like Scriptures point to the image of the beast as fulfillment of the abomination of desolation?

Certainly that is an end time view - but in Dan 8 it is something that is setup during the 2300 years not afterwards - so perhaps both need to be included.

in Christ,

Bob

[Samie]

Originally Posted By: Samie

The graven image that Manasseh placed inside the temple (2 Kings 21:7; 2 Chron 33:7) God called "shiqquts" (Jer 32:34).

In the whole Bible, there is only one "shiqquts" that will cause desolation to the end-time people of God: the image of the beast in Rev 13.

Allowing Scripture to interpret itself, doesn't it look like Scriptures point to the image of the beast as fulfillment of the abomination of desolation?

Certainly that is an end time view - but in Dan 8 it is something that is setup during the 2300 years not afterwards - so perhaps both need to be included.

in Christ,

Bob

No offense meant, but since it appears you are hinting at more than one abomination of desolation, I'd like to again ask these questions:

1. Our Master Teacher in Matt 24:15 referred to the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet. Was He referring to more than one abomination of desolation?

2. If He was referring to only one abomination of desolation, had it already found fulfillment and been set up?

3. If it had been set up, then had the great tribulation occurred?

4. If the great tribulation had already occurred, then why had Jesus not yet come as He explicitly said He would?

[CoAspen]

Thanks for the reply Joe! I have heard these discussions all my life but never any personal beliefs on the subject, just 'well you need to know all of this because...' and that was it. So I am interested in what people see as a value in all of this. As I said, already, I just do not see

God as wanting a big, or intending, a mystery that seems to have been the focus over these many decades.

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted By: Samie

The graven image that Manasseh placed inside the temple (2 Kings 21:7; 2 Chron 33:7) God called "shiqquts" (Jer 32:34).

In the whole Bible, there is only one "shiqquts" that will cause desolation to the end-time people of God: the image of the beast in Rev 13.

Allowing Scripture to interpret itself, doesn't it look like Scriptures point to the image of the beast as fulfillment of the abomination of desolation?

Certainly that is an end time view - but in Dan 8 it is something that is setup during the 2300 years not afterwards - so perhaps both need to be included.

in Christ,

Bob

[Samie]

Quote:

It could not be future to Matt 24 in any case. When I say there may be "two" I am not talking about anything prior to the time of Matt 24 -- rather future to it.

I'm rather puzzled by your response, Bob...

What is it that "could not be future to Matt 24", and yet you said you are "not talking about anything prior to the time of Matt 24 -- rather future to it"? Or was it just a typo and you actually meant "could not be PRIOR to Matt 24"?

[Samie]

Originally Posted By: Samie

No offense meant, but since it appears you are hinting at more than one abomination of desolation, I'd like to again ask these questions:

1. Our Master Teacher in Matt 24:15 referred to the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet. Was He referring to more than one abomination of desolation?

...

It could not be future to Matt 24 in any case. When I say there may be "two" I am not talking about anything prior to the time of Matt 24 -- rather future to it.

1. The 2300 year time frame of Dan 8 that includes the 1260 years of dark ages persecution of the saints by the little horn of Dan 7 - which was also future to Matt 24, and so also the Roman armies surrounding Jerusalem and the destruction of Jerusalem - future to Matt 24.

2. The future tribulation where the image to the beast of rev 13 is set up, future to both Matt 24 and to today.

Am I reading you correctly when your "there may be "two"" connotes "there could only be one"? Is it OK if I request for a straightforward Yes or No? Of course, explanations are most welcome to go along with the Yes or No.

I really want to know so I could be sure of your position as to whether Jesus was referring to only one abomination of desolation in Matt 24:15, or to more than one.

Thanks for your indulgence, brother.

[Samie]

...

1. The 2300 year time frame of Dan 8 that includes the 1260 years of dark ages persecution of the saints by the little horn of Dan 7 - which was also future to Matt 24, and so also the Roman armies surrounding Jerusalem and the destruction of Jerusalem - future to Matt 24.

2. The future tribulation where the image to the beast of rev 13 is set up, future to both Matt 24 and to today.

1. When you said "future tribulation", are you referring to the great tribulation described by our Master Teacher in Matt 24:21?

2. If Yes, then am I reading you correctly as saying the setting up of the abomination of desolation that will trigger the "future tribulation" in the future is the setting up of the image to the beast or the image of the beast?

[hch]

...

The same is true of the papacy. It was the little horn that plucked up three tribes in the fallen Western Roman Empire, but it is not the endtime little horn of Daniel 8. Or the final fulfillment of the little horn that Heaven's interpretation is explaining in Daniel 7. It foreshadows the endtime little horn.

But as long as God's people accept the 4 kingdoms that sealed the validity of God's word and was understood way back in the 4th century AD, in Luther's day (1500's) and in 1798 (before the book of Daniel was opened and knowledge increased), they are doomed to walk in that light. Thus when the light moves from light to greater light, if they stay put the light will move away from them and they will be in darkness.

[8thdaypriest]

Joe,

A high priest could NOT marry a woman defiled by harlotry, idolatry, a divorced woman or a widow - Israel was ALL of these. And the Law said a man could not remarry the woman he had divorced.

So the only way OUR HIGH PRIEST can marry Israel redeemed is to erase the record of her past - thus returning her to virginal status. Hence the 144,000 are described as "virgins".

I believe the 144,000 represent those from the first resurrection. NOT the ones who reached perfection because they completely overcame EVERY tiny sin while still living in this world.

WE Gentile believers are "grafted in" - adopted in - to the "commonwealth of Israel". We become Israelites.

DNA does NOT determine who is an Israelite. Paul wrote, "They are NOT all Israel who are of (descended from) Israel (Jacob).

Now - will the present nation named Israel figure very prominently in end time prophecy fulfillment - You bet!

She is the centerpiece for Satan's Masterpiece of Deception.

Blessings

Rachel Cory

Prophecy Viewpoint

[8thdaypriest]

Samie - you never heard of a dual prophecy?

[Samie]

Thanks, Henry;

You believe that the National Sunday Law is the abomination of desolation referred to by our Master Teacher in Matt 24:15. He said that the abomination of desolation is spoken of by Daniel the prophet.

Since the AoD is spoken of by Daniel, is it OK for you if we go to Daniel and inquire about it?

If so, then we go to Daniel.

As I had earlier posted in a response to you, in Daniel, "abomination" is from the Hebrew "shiqquts". "shiqquts" as used in the Old Testament refers to idols worshipped by pagans as deities (see 1 Kings 11:5,7; 2 Kings 23:13). Pagan idols are graven images (Greek, "eikon"; Hebrew "pecel"; Aramaic "tselem"), like the golden image that Nebuchadnezzar built (Dan 3:1). The graven image that Manasseh placed inside the temple (2 Kings 21:7; 2 Chron 33:7) God called "shiqquts" (Jer 32:34).

In the whole Bible, there is only one "shiqquts" that will cause desolation to the end-time people of God: the image of the beast in Rev 13.

Allowing Scripture to interpret itself, doesn't it look like Scriptures point to the image of the beast as fulfillment of the abomination of desolation?

[Samie]

Samie - you never heard of a dual prophecy?

Are you referring to the apotelesmatic principle in theological circles?

[8thdaypriest]

The Book of Daniel is closed up and sealed until "the time of the end".

I just have a really hard time believing that 1798 or 1844 began the "time of the end".

I don't believe we are going to understand that book until the little horn comes to power.

He will persecute the saints for 1260 days, 42 months, time-times-and a part

"UNTIL THE TIME CAME for the saints to possess the kingdom." (Daniel 7:22)

Rev. 11:15-19 says the dominion is given to Christ (and with him the saints) when the 7th trumpet sounds.

That's the Second Coming.

The 42 months ends with the Second Coming.

In Revelation 13 the Beast is given authority to continue for 42 months AFTER the deadly wound of one of his heads is healed. The whole world worships him AFTER the deadly wound is healed. He persecutes and overcomes the saints AFTER his wound is healed.

But SDAs put the 1260 days as ending in 1798 when the Pope is taken captive by Napoleon. They have it backwards. The 1260 days/ 42 months/ "time, times and a part" come AFTER the wound is healed - NOT BEFORE.

[8thdaypriest]

Whooooeeeeee

To big a word for me Samie.

[hch]

This post is DEEP it is not intended for everybody.

Without any hint of offending anyone, I am just volunteering my pinch of salt as to how Scriptures describe the abomination of desolation:

In Daniel, "abomination" is from the Hebrew "shiqquts". "shiqquts" as used in the Old Testament refers to idols worshipped by pagans as deities (see 1 Kings 11:5,7; 2 Kings 23:13). Pagan idols are graven images (Greek, "eikon"; Hebrew "pecel"; Aramaic "tselem"), like the golden image that Nebuchadnezzar built (Dan 3:1). The graven image that Manasseh placed inside the temple (2 Kings 21:7; 2 Chron 33:7) God called "shiqquts" (Jer 32:34).

In the whole Bible, there is only one "shiqquts" that will cause desolation to the end-time people of God: the image of the beast in Rev 13.

Allowing Scripture to interpret itself, doesn't it look like Scriptures point to the image of the beast as fulfillment of the abomination of desolation?

[BobRyan]

This post is DEEP it is not intended for everybody.

From my exhaustive study of Daniel (I wrote 3 commentaries on it and 5 other books on Daniel and Revelation) I understand Daniel 8:11 to be saying:

"The prince magnified himself after the continual was taken away and the place of his sanctuary was cast down." (8:11)

Sanctuary is from a word meaning Treasure House and on 9/11/01 one of the Twin Towers containing a safe with gold in it was cast down .

combine that with Daniel 12:11 (you have to go back to the original language -- the translators supplemented it too)

"The time for the continual to be taken away, is after the abomination that maketh desolate is set up; there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days." (12:11)

GW set up an abomination that desolates on 9/20/01 when he told Congress the Muslim teaching were good. The GOOD teachings cast down Christ as our sacrifice and oblation (our personal Savior).

count 1290-days from 9/20/01 = 4/2/05.

John-Paul II died 4/2/05.

Is he one that was to continue?

He had a deadly wound and it was healed.

He died exactly 42-months after 9/11/01.

...

The Adventist Review has 2/3rds of the details in this study as does the Pacific Press and the SDA Theological Society (that was the final draft available when I sent it to them). The manuscript was written in a fast moving simple style for laymen to understand. If they read it in sequence, it will make sense; but not if they read it out of sequence. Pray that they do not sit on it for too long.

It is certain - they will never publish such a thing.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

The Book of Daniel is closed up and sealed until "the time of the end".

I just have a really hard time believing that 1798 or 1844 began the "time of the end".

I don't believe we are going to understand that book until the little horn comes to power.

He will persecute the saints for 1260 days, 42 months, time-times-and a part

"UNTIL THE TIME CAME for the saints to possess the kingdom." (Daniel 7:22)

Rev. 11:15-19 says the dominion is given to Christ (and with him the saints) when the 7th trumpet sounds.

That's the Second Coming.

The 42 months ends with the Second Coming.

The 42 months do not end at the 2nd coming.

The entire SDA church and also Millerite movement took place after the 42 months ended -- after the dark ages period of century upon century of persecution of the saints.

By 1798 that level of persecution of the saints by the RCC had fully ended.

Daniel 7 makes it clear that this defines that period of time where the RCC little horn was in power and dominated the Christian world - persecuting the saints and sometimes that was in the form of torture and death at the hands of the RCC.

Few people would argue that this is still going on today.

in Christ,

Bob