Little horn of Dan 8

[JoeMo]

Quote:

Anybody see two 3.5 year periods here??

Absolutely. The first 3.5 years may be upon us very soon. This is not meant to induce fear; it's meant to inspire excitement as we wait expectantly for Yeshua's return.

[8thdaypriest]

I can tell you what I believe makes the most sense concerning the prophecies of Daniel and the Revelation. Doesn't mean that I think I'm inspired or anything. I'm just reading and praying and studying like everyone else here.

The vision given to Daniel was to prophesy of events in "the latter days".

FIRST EVENT:

The RAM with the two horns, pushing north, south and west - I believe represents militant Islam - the "kings of Media and Persia" in the "latter days".

The goat from the west, I believe represents a United Nations coalition led by the United States (the notable horn).

The goat throws the ram to the ground - stomps on him - and breaks both of his horns. (So no world Caliphate. Islam is NOT the terrible 4th beast.

THEN

The notable horn is broken.

Where there was 1 notable horn - ON THAT GOAT - four then come up.

The horn that was by itself - most powerful - is still there,

but three more share in world power.

Then a "little horn" comes out of one of the horns.

We know from Daniel 7 that the world (or at least Israel) is dominated by these four beasts.

A "little horn" comes out of the 4th Beast (which is unlike the other beasts) because it has 10 horns (It's really powerful).

At this point I'm still thinking that the 4th terrible Beast is the UN or some variation of it. All nations become subservient to the world council. It is the "New World Order". Guess that means no personal ownership of guns, and a re-distribution of world wealth.

But THEN the "little horn comes up". We just don't know yet WHO this will be.

We know from Daniel 7:7-8 that the little horn subdues three other horns. Most likely the lion/bear/leopard BECAUSE those are the THREE that were spotlighted as most powerful, and because the Beast of Rev. 13 has incorporated the characteristics of the three that were subdued. These three have now given their power to the Beast along with the other 7 horns.

In Daniel 7:11-12, the "rest of the beasts" - live on - AFTER the "terrible 4th beast" is destroyed by fire. THAT should tell us that these beasts are viable in the last days. These are not ancient kingdoms.

The United States was/is the ONLY nation without a state religion - with freedom of religion - with freedom of expression. She defends Christianity - or at least she once did. She must be weakened BEFORE the end times scenario can begin. This is why I see an economic collapse coming. Such a collapse is the ONLY way to weaken and humble her.

She - the United States - will be looking for money to bail her out. The Harlot has vast riches and will, I believe use her wealth to buy political ends, submission to the Beast (probably the United Nations).

Just my opinion.

Rachel Cory

Prophecy Viewpoint

[Samie]

...

She - the United States - will be looking for money to bail her out. The Harlot has vast riches and will, I believe use her wealth to buy political ends, submission to the Beast (probably the United Nations).

Just my opinion.

[8thdaypriest]

Originally Posted By: 8thdaypriest

...

She - the United States - will be looking for money to bail her out. The Harlot has vast riches and will, I believe use her wealth to buy political ends, submission to the Beast (probably the United Nations).

Just my opinion.

I am just a bit curious: if the Beast is not an individual, then who gets captured and thrown alive into the lake of fire, just before the Millennium:

Quote:

NKJ Revelation 19:20 Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone.

If the whole earth is consumed by fire at the Second Coming, then the Beast - representative of a system, would be "cast alive into the lake of fire".

If the other "beasts" (lion, bear, leopard) represent nations or at least defined territories, then "the Beast" could represent a ruling body composed of many individuals.

2 Peter 3:10 “But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.”

[Samie]

Hi, Sis Rachel;

I am inclined to believe that the fire in 2 Peter 3:10, does not occur in the 2nd Coming, but in the day of judgment and perdition of the ungodly.

2 Peter 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

"perdition' is total destruction, from the Greek "apoleia". This will occur AFTER the millennium of Rev 20 where fire will rain down from heaven on all the wicked, and satan thrown into the lake of fire together with those whose names are not found in the book of life (Rev 20:9-15).

[8thdaypriest]

Hi, Sis Rachel;

I am inclined to believe that the fire in 2 Peter 3:10, does not occur in the 2nd Coming, but in the day of judgment and perdition of the ungodly.

2 Peter 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

"perdition' is total destruction, from the Greek "apoleia". This will occur AFTER the millennium of Rev 20 where fire will rain down from heaven on all the wicked, and satan thrown into the lake of fire together with those whose names are not found in the book of life (Rev 20:9-15).

Hi Samie,

My view is somewhat different from yours.

I believe that those who have knowingly rebelled against the LORD of heaven will be judged and executed by fire ON THE DAY that Christ returns.

This day IS judgment day for the wicked.

Daniel 12:1-3 has BOTH righteous and those worthy of "everlasting contempt" awakening from sleep in the dust.

Daniel 12:1-3 “There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people – everyone whose name is found written in the book--will be delivered. Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.” NIV

Matthew 25:31-34 & 41 “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. Then the King will say to those on His right hand,`Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world’ . . . Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:’”

To me - this is where "the Beast" is thrown alive into the lake of fire.

Romans 2:5-11 “But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God's wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. God ‘will repay each person according to what they have done.’ To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.” (NIV) [Paul then says that both Jews and Gentiles will receive their due reward or punishment.] “For God does not show favoritism.”

I just believe that many are not sheep or goats. They did not receive the "call". They never heard the message.

Let's say that I was a young girl age 7, "married" to a Muslim man. (Yes - the Koran teaches child marriage.) I was essentially raped at the age of 11 and died in childbirth. I never heard of Jesus Christ, because girls are NOT educated. What could I know of His ways.

I believe that this young girl along with millions who never knew of Yahweh or the "good news" of salvation will be raised AFTER the 1000 years of the 7th millennium. They will be governed by the "priests of God and of Christ" (the redeemed) and they will be taught the way of God. THEN they will choose whether they will have Christ as King or rebel against Him.

The fire of God will consume the army who come up against Jerusalem in an attempt to overthrow His reign.

THEN - AFTER the Gog/Magog Battle will come the final judgment.

I do NOT believe that any of these rebellious persons will be awake/conscious/or alive for this event. They will be physically DEAD. They stand before God only in the sense of the record of their deeds.

It is the essence of each individual - that which God keeps - that which could be used to resurrect each one - THAT essence is destroyed in the "lake of fire" making future resurrection impossible.

There are several studies at my website which go into detail.

Blessings,

Rachel Cory

Prophecy Viewpoint

[Samie]

The basis for truth is NOT what I believe. It's what Scriptures say.

There is no Scriptures that say the wicked are thrown into the lake of fire at the 2nd Coming. Instead, Scriptures make clear that the throwing of the wicked into the lake of fire is AFTER the millennium.

Christ's statement at the 2nd Coming telling the goats to depart into everlasting fire, does not necessarily mean they will be thrown into the lake of fire right then and there. Instead, the wicked will first suffer the wrath of God - the 7 last plagues (Rom 2:5-8; Rev 15:1). Scriptures say that the wicked will be thrown into the lake of fire AFTER the millennium. see Rev 20:9-15.

[hch]

Rev 13 speaks of two different beasts in v1 and v11. The little horn is the beast in v1. The beast in v11 is the false prophet working for the beast.

Do you have Scriptural evidence to support this statement? "The beast in v11 is the false prophet working for the beast."

[hch]

Quote:

Anybody see two 3.5 year periods here??

Absolutely. The first 3.5 years may be upon us very soon. This is not meant to induce fear; it's meant to inspire excitement as we wait expectantly for Yeshua's return.

You think soon?

Did you know that Pope John-Paul died 42-months after 9/11/01?

count them. 42 full months.

He had a deadly wound, it was healed.

Communism could not stand against him.

The world wondered after him.

[Stan]

9-11 happened in one country/ Other countries have been inflected with much worse.

No relationship.

[8thdaypriest]

The basis for truth is NOT what I believe. It's what Scriptures say.

There is no Scriptures that say the wicked are thrown into the lake of fire at the 2nd Coming. Instead, Scriptures make clear that the throwing of the wicked into the lake of fire is AFTER the millennium.

[Samie]

Originally Posted By: Samie

Rev 13 speaks of two different beasts in v1 and v11. The little horn is the beast in v1. The beast in v11 is the false prophet working for the beast.

Do you have Scriptural evidence to support this statement? "The beast in v11 is the false prophet working for the beast."

[Samie]

Rev 19:11-21 where Christ returns to earth riding a white horse is NOT the 2nd Coming. At the 2nd Coming, the Savior will come in like manner He ascended: via a cloud. see Acts 1:9-11. He did not ride a horse to heaven. He went up on a cloud. He will come in the cloud. see Matt 24:30; Rev 1:7.

Rev 19:11-21 is AFTER the 2nd Coming, AFTER the saints have been ushered to heaven, AFTER the execution of judgment against the harlot (early part of the 7th plague; see Rev 16:19), and AFTER the marriage of the Lamb.

Please take note that just BEFORE the marriage announcement in heaven (Rev 19:7-9), v1 says "much people" or "great multitude", from the Greek "ochlos", are already in heaven, indicating a post-2nd Coming event. V2 says the harlot has been judged, indicating the 7th plague has started.

Since Christ had promised in John 14:1-3 that when He comes again, He will receive the righteous to Himself that where He is, there shall the righteous be. Naturally, after the wedding where He has received us - His Bride - to Himself, where He goes we go. When He returns to earth, we go with Him.

This explains why in the war against the beast, the saints are seen to be with Christ (Rev 17:14). This war is the battle of Armageddon detailed in Rev 19:19-21, where the beast and his false prophet will be defeated and will be thrown alive into the lake of fire, while the rest of the wicked are all slain by the sword (not by fire), just before the onset of the Millennium.

AFTER the millennium, satan will be loosed and the wicked will again be raised. It is at this time that they will all be thrown into the lake of fire, which is the second death. see Rev 20:5-15

[Samie]

Originally Posted By: JoeMo

Absolutely. The first 3.5 years may be upon us very soon. This is not meant to induce fear; it's meant to inspire excitement as we wait expectantly for Yeshua's return.

You think soon?

Did you know that Pope John-Paul died 42-months after 9/11/01?

count them. 42 full months.

He had a deadly wound, it was healed.

Communism could not stand against him.

The world wondered after him.

Pope John-Paul is NOT the beast. Pope John-Paul cannot fit the biblical specs that the beast is still alive when Christ returns at the 2nd Coming.

[hch]

Pope John-Paul is NOT the beast. Pope John-Paul cannot fit the biblical specs that the beast is still alive when Christ returns at the 2nd Coming.

You forget that when Revelation 17 speaks of the beast it is focusing on the heads that represent the beast in their order: 5 are fallen. 1 is (Pope John-Paul II). One is to come for a short space: Benedict XVI. 7 is the number of completeness.

Benedict's ascension year completed John-Paul II's last year.

Thus Benedict's first year according to Babylonian tradition started on the Babylonian New Year's day in March of 2006. And he had to leave office prior to the Babylonian New Year's Day in march 2013 to fulfill "short space." Had he remained in office past the Babylonian New Year's Day in march 2013, his reign would not have been a "short space" since it would have been longer than the number of completeness.

You would be blessed to read: America, the Obama Nation.

Thus the papal beast was depicted as John-Paul II while he lived and ruled the RCC and its state. And when Satan appears as John-Paul II proclaiming that he is in his spiritual body and that he forewarned the world that God changed Sabbath to Sunday in Dies Domini; Revelation 17's prediction that the 8th is of the 7 will be fulfilled as will EGW's prediction that the last two deceptions will be that of spiritualism and Sunday sacredness.

[Kevin H]

The 5 have fallen, one is and one is yet to come corresponds to where the beast is, is not, and is yet to come and it around the time of the rising of the 2 horned beast.

When the United State arose: Babylon, medio-Persia, Greece, and Rome had fallen, and with the American and French Revolutions the fifth, the Holy Roman empire fell. The one that is was the one that is and is not and is yet to come. So the beast is, the head is not as it received a deadly wound but is to come as the deadly wound will be healed.

[JoeMo]

Another viewpoint:

Since Rev. 17 was written from John's perspective of time, the 5 that have fallen may be Assyria, Egypt, Babylon, Medo-Persia, and Greece. The Kingdon which "is" (from John's time perspective) was Rome.

IMO, the Kingdom yet to come, who would rule for only a while could have been Nazi Germany. That leaves only the 8th king, which comes from one of the first 5. Leaves Rome out altogether.

[8thdaypriest]

Originally Posted By: hch

Do you have Scriptural evidence to support this statement? "The beast in v11 is the false prophet working for the beast."

Here's the Scripture:

Quote:

NKJ Revelation 19:20 Then the beast was captured' date=' and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone.[/quote']

Who is this false prophet described above? It is the beast in Rev 13: 11, whose work description in Rev 13:12-17 reflects his description in Rev 19:20.

I agree with you on this one Samie. The "two horned beast" "like a lamb" which then "spoke like a dragon" IS the false prophet.

[8thdaypriest]

Rev 19:11-21 where Christ returns to earth riding a white horse is NOT the 2nd Coming. At the 2nd Coming, the Savior will come in like manner He ascended: via a cloud. see Acts 1:9-11. He did not ride a horse to heaven. He went up on a cloud. He will come in the cloud. see Matt 24:30; Rev 1:7.

Rev 19:11-21 is AFTER the 2nd Coming, AFTER the saints have been ushered to heaven, AFTER the execution of judgment against the harlot (early part of the 7th plague; see Rev 16:19), and AFTER the marriage of the Lamb.

Please take note that just BEFORE the marriage announcement in heaven (Rev 19:7-9), v1 says "much people" or "great multitude", from the Greek "ochlos", are already in heaven, indicating a post-2nd Coming event. V2 says the harlot has been judged, indicating the 7th plague has started.

Since Christ had promised in John 14:1-3 that when He comes again, He will receive the righteous to Himself that where He is, there shall the righteous be. Naturally, after the wedding where He has received us - His Bride - to Himself, where He goes we go. When He returns to earth, we go with Him.

This explains why in the war against the beast, the saints are seen to be with Christ (Rev 17:14). This war is the battle of Armageddon detailed in Rev 19:19-21, where the beast and his false prophet will be defeated and will be thrown alive into the lake of fire, while the rest of the wicked are all slain by the sword (not by fire), just before the onset of the Millennium.

AFTER the millennium, satan will be loosed and the wicked will again be raised. It is at this time that they will all be thrown into the lake of fire, which is the second death. see Rev 20:5-15

Thanks Samie,

I was wanting to read a complete outline of your beliefs concerning the last events.

[8thdaypriest]

Another viewpoint:

Since Rev. 17 was written from John's perspective of time, the 5 that have fallen may be Assyria, Egypt, Babylon, Medo-Persia, and Greece. The Kingdon which "is" (from John's time perspective) was Rome.

IMO, the Kingdom yet to come, who would rule for only a while could have been Nazi Germany. That leaves only the 8th king, which comes from one of the first 5. Leaves Rome out altogether.

Agree with this Joe. Most interesting that the Nazis put a "mark" on certain people who "keep the commandments of God".

The Beast and the Harlot are two different entities. The Harlot rides the Beast. She is NOT the Beast. We can't make the Beast the RCC and the Harlot the RCC. That won't work.

[JoeMo]

Quote:

the Nazis put a "mark" on certain people who "keep the commandments of God".

Very good point, Rachel. Thanks!

[hch]

Rev 13 speaks of two different beasts in v1 and v11. The little horn is the beast in v1. The beast in v11 is the false prophet working for the beast.

[Samie]

Do you have Scriptural evidence to support this statement? "The beast in v11 is the false prophet working for the beast."

[JoeMo]

Hey Joe,

I'm not answering on behalf of Rachel and Samie, but I think the church will be taken off of the earth or somehow otherwise protected from the seven bowls of God's wrath. Rev. 14:14-20 talks about the harvest of the earth. Then Rev. 15 and 16 talk about the 7 bowls being poured out. If we assume that the story is chronological and this point (not a strained assumption), then the church must have been removed to a safe place prior to the bowls being poured out; since nothing seems to survive this event.

Hey hch,

There are many things we believe that cannot be "proven" from scripture. For example, one cannot prove the doctrine of the Trinity from scripture, yet most of us embrace this as a basic doctrine of Christianity. If everything we believe could be proven, it would not be a matter of "faith", it would be a matter of "fact". Outside of faith in God's Word, we cannot even prove that Christ was ever here; much less prove that He is the incarnate Son of God. It is only our faith in the inerrancy of God's word and the internal conviction by the Spirit that we "know" this. Yet to us, it is the single most important salvational truth in our faith. An opinion about who the beast (or the false prophet) is isn't a salvational truth. If we are in tune with God's Word and His Spirit, we will recognize them when they appear.

[Samie]

Some people teach the theory of the "Pre-Tribulation Rapture", as in "Left Behind", etc.

It seems that both Rachel and Samie are presenting a kind of "Pre- Last Plagues Rapture". Is this is what you are saying?

- joe

Sorry, but No. There is no rapture in Scriptures: only 2nd Coming.