Little horn of Dan 8

[8thdaypriest]

Some people teach the theory of the "Pre-Tribulation Rapture", as in "Left Behind", etc.

It seems that both Rachel and Samie are presenting a kind of "Pre- Last Plagues Rapture". Is this is what you are saying?

- joe

I believe that the people of God will suffer "tribulation" - terrible persecution for 1260 days, leading up to the Second Coming. The trumpets judgments will be falling, but not yet the 7 last plagues.

So it's NOT a pre-tribulation rapture.

I DO BELIEVE it will be a pre-7 last plagues "rapture" - if that's the word you want to use to describe our being "caught up to meet Him in the air".

I believe the people of God will be removed from this earth BEFORE the final "wrath of God" is poured out.

There would be no point in them being present for the last plagues. No one will repent. There will be no one to preach to.

Lot was removed from Sodom BEFORE the fireballs fell from heaven. The Second Coming "will be as in the days of Lot".

I believe Lot's wife represents those who formerly WERE in Covenant with the LORD, who "look back" to the world, and are "left behind" to destruction - (NOT to a second chance).

Did I answer that clearly enough?

[8thdaypriest]

Yes.

[hch]

Originally Posted By: Hch

Do you have Scriptural evidence to support this statement? "The beast in v11 is the false prophet working for the beast."

Originally Posted By: samie

Here's the Scripture:

Quote:

NKJ Revelation 19:20 Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Originally Posted By: Hch

It is nice for folks to be in one accord. But nobody has proven by Scripture that the beast of Revelation 13:11 is the false prophet. You make an assumption. Where in Scripture do you find the proof.

Already given: just read, understand & compare Rev 13:11-16 with Rev 19:20.

Samie,

I read what you presented and the conclusion that you draw from those two Scriptures is not conclusive. If that is all that you have on the identity of the false prophet, I must conclude that you are in error.

But if you have anything else worthy of consideration, please share it.

[Samie]

Hi Bro Henry;

How kind of you, brother. But please be more kind by expounding on why you think what I presented was in error.

Thanks, and Happy Sabbath.

[hch]

...Hey hch,

There are many things we believe that cannot be "proven" from scripture. For example, one cannot prove the doctrine of the Trinity from scripture, yet most of us embrace this as a basic doctrine of Christianity. If everything we believe could be proven, it would not be a matter of "faith", it would be a matter of "fact". Outside of faith in God's Word, we cannot even prove that Christ was ever here; much less prove that He is the incarnate Son of God. It is only our faith in the inerrancy of God's word and the internal conviction by the Spirit that we "know" this. Yet to us, it is the single most important salvational truth in our faith. An opinion about who the beast (or the false prophet) is isn't a salvational truth. If we are in tune with God's Word and His Spirit, we will recognize them when they appear.

Hey JoeMo

When the truth is within our grasp and folks accept something less, they will never come the the truth. But when false "truth" so called is swept away more light will flood in. But when an error is embraced as truth, the work that God desires to do for us cannot be done. The Holy Spirit is turned aside.

What may not appear as a salvational issue, may indeed have quite an impact on our salvation.

[8thdaypriest]

The Beast of Rev. 13:1-8 is a composite. It has characteristics of the three beasts who preceded it in Daniel 7 - lion/bear/leopard.

It has swallowed up those other beasts. I'm thinking United Nations type one world government, with other nations submitting.

Satan (the dragon) empowers this Beast (v. 2).

V. 11 "THEN I saw ANOTHER beast" - lamb like - but spoke "like a dragon".

So this Beast is channeled by Satan.

This lamb-like Beast

1. "causes the earth and those who dwell in it to worship (serve) the first beast"

2. He performs great signs by which "he deceives those who dwell on the earth" "telling those who dwell on the earth to make an image to the beast"

This "image" would be an act of service to the first beast.

3. He is granted power to give breath to the image of the beast

4. He causes "as many as would not worship the image of the beast to be killed - THAT's ENFORCEMENT.

5. He causes everyone to "receive a mark" with the name of the Beast (the first one)

This lamb-like beast is definitely the enforcer.

The question is whether he is the prophet (spokesman) for the first Beast.

He DOES seem to be "telling those who dwell on the earth" to cooperate with the Beast. He is speaking FOR the first beast, bringing everyone into line - either by deception or by force.

I would say the description of "prophet" (one who speaks for another) FITS.

The lamb-like beast performs "great signs by which he deceives those who dwell on the earth" "telling those who dwell on the earth to make an image to the beast"

and the false prophet "performed the signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast (Rev 19:20 NAS)

Seems to me that the description of the lamb-like beast FITS with the description of the "false prophet".

Who is the lamb-like Beast?

Who is THE first Beast?

We just don't KNOW yet, because they have not come to their fullness so they can be easily recognized.

The Pope of Rome COULD be the lamb-like beast.

Just don't know yet.

[hch]

The 4 kingdoms are true. They are the seal of God on Daniel 2 & 7

 

But they are not the endtime meaning that was "sealed up until the time of the end."

 

Daniel 12: 4 & 9 specifically state that Daniel's prophecy was sealed, shut-up, & closed until the time of the end.

 

The 4 kingdoms were understood by Roman Christians in the 4th century AD, Luther 1500's, and Newton 1600's all of which were before the Book of Daniel was unsealed and opened.

 

Thus that which was understood before Daniel's prophecy was unsealed cannot be the meaning that was sealed. The time of the end began 1798 - 1844, thus the endtime meaning of Daniel 2 & 7 must be discovered post-1844.

[hch]

9-11 happened in one country/ Other countries have been inflected with much worse.

No relationship.

 

EGW states that Revelation is a Supplement of Daniel.

 

When Daniel 7 identifies 9/11/01 in context of the 4 kings from the earth (7:17) and the Little Horn in power

at that time is Pope john-Paul II who speaks great things in Dies Domini and he just happens to be the

pope that literally received a deadly wound that was healed; and then President Reagan heals the 1798 papal wound

on America's behalf and Bush I heals the RCC's religious wound by elivating pope John-paul II to be head of all the churches;

and communism falls at John-Paul II's bidding without firing a shot (who is able to make war with him?), you don't see any relation to America's 911/01

and Bible propehcy? Did you notice that John-Paul II died 42-months after 9/11?

 

oct, nov, dec 2001

2002

2003

2004

jan, feb, mar 2005

 

that is 42-months.

 

EGW: " In the last days Satan will appear as an angel of light, with great power and heavenly glory, and claim to be the Lord of the whole earth. He will declare that the Sabbath has been changed from the seventh to the first day of the week; and as lord of the first day of the week he will present this spurious sabbath as a test of loyalty to him. Then will take place the final fulfillment of the Revelator's prophecy. [Revelation 13:4-18, quoted.]  {19MR 282.1}

 

The passage that EGW quoted here begins:13:4    And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who [is] like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?  

 13:5    And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty [and] two months...

 

I cannot agree with your conclusion

[hch]

Hi Bro Henry;

How kind of you, brother. But please be more kind by expounding on why you think what I presented was in error.

Thanks, and Happy Sabbath.

 

Brother Samie,

 

Unless there is more evidence from the Scriptures, how shall we know?

 

From a study of Daniel 7, Rev 13 & 17 there are several things that come to light today that are explained by prophecy fulfilled.

 

Example: Daniel saw 4 beasts arise from the sea.

 

Historically, it is known that they were the kingdoms from Babylon to papal Rome.

 

That is the truth that sealed the authenticity of Daniel's prophecies.

 

But his prophecy was to be sealed until the time of the end.

 

The time of the end began 1798-1844.

 

So the kingdoms that were understood as early as the 4th century were not the meaning that was sealed, shut-up and closed.

 

"Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased" (Daniel 12:4).

 

"Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end" (Daniel 12:9)

 

you will agree that the kingdoms of Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, and Rome (pagan and papal) were understood in the 4th century AD, at the time of Luther (1500's) and time of newton (1600's) all of which was before Daniel was unsealed and opened after 1798-1844. Thus the meaning of the 4-sea kingdoms that sealed the authenticity of God's prophecy cannot be the meaning that was to be revealed after 1844 when the prophecy was opened and unsealed because they were known and understood before the prophecy was unsealed and opened.

 

"These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth" (Daniel 7:17).

 

earth and sea are different.

 

Revelation 13 explains that the beast from the earth is America.

 

Thus the endtime meaning of "These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth" must be 4 American Presidents.

 

Thus the papal beast in Rev 13 that has the lion, bear, and leopard's features must be depicting the characteristics of 3 of these endtime American presidents bonding with the papacy.

 

And when Rev 17 expands and explains 17:12 identifies an hour that is from 14 October 1929 through 14 February 2013 that the healed papacy (not the papacy without a kingdom) bonded with 10 American Presidents.

 

Partially understanding this, I was able to Tweet that I understood from the Bible and EGW that pope Benedict would leave office by Spring 2013. Here are my Tweets from the Twitter archives:

 

Pope Benedict XVI has but a very short time left (9/3/11)

 

#Pope Benedict XVI marks his last year with a Latin America trip that includes a visit to #Cuba (23 March 2012)

 

With Benedict XVI in his last year, Who’s going to be the new pope? … (3 April 2012)

 

Is Pope Benedict going to be pope in 2013? (29 April 2012)

 

Months ago I tweeted that pope Benedict XVI is a short timer. Now Vatican power play is news! Y u b last 2 know? (28 May 2012)

 

If Pope Benedict’s 8th year is really his 7th, his time ends before May 2013 (7 July 2012)

 

Pope Benedict’s 8th year is really his 7th, because his ascension year was John-Paul II’s last year.

Will Benedict XVI’s 7th year B his last (8 August 2012)

 

Pope #Benedict XVI As I read Daniel’s prophecy, 7’s number of completeness. His ascension year (zero) 2005.

He might last till spring 2013? (30 September 2012)

 

Then when it happened, the solo-pope papacy ended. There are now 2 living popes.

 

I did not understand that because Rev 17 says that the 8th will be of the 7 and Francis I is not in the 7.

 

it took much prayer and a daily study of the book of revelation cover to cover to realize that it was beyond my understanding.

 

Then while praying, the Holy Spirit told me, "you are reading the wrong book."  "Revelation is the supplement of Daniel."

 

So Going back to Daniel when Babylon fell there were 3 kings: Nabonidus, Belshazzar & Daniel was made the 3rd ruler moments before Babylon fell.

 

Then it was understood that as spiritual Babylon is about to yield its dominion to Christ's kingdom there are two popes: Benedict XVI the retired and Francis the beast. But Revelation and Daniel make statements and then they expand and explain.

 

"And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet" (Revelation 16:13)

 

The dragon is Satan in the context of Revelation17, he must be impersonating Pope John-Paul II (one of the 7 because Jp II is dead and cannot personally come back to life), the beast is pope Francis I & the false prophet is Benedict (who claims that this is really John-Paul II when Satan impersonates him based on Benedict's personal aquaintence with him)

 

So with Bible study and Spirit of Prophecy support [the last 2 great errors will be Sunday sacredness and spiritualism] favoring this scenario, you need to present something more substancial to bolster your traditional position if it is the Present Truth that we need to understand today.

 

By their fulfillment Daniel and Revelation will explain themselves; and it is happening. So we want to be sure to get it right.

 

 

 

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings hch,

The 4 kingdoms are true. They are the seal of God on Daniel 2 & 7

 

But they are not the endtime meaning that was "sealed up until the time of the end."

 

Daniel 12: 4 & 9 specifically state that Daniel's prophecy was sealed, shut-up, & closed until the time of the end.

 

The 4 kingdoms were understood by Roman Christians in the 4th century AD, Luther 1500's, and Newton 1600's all of which were before the Book of Daniel was unsealed and opened.

 

Thus that which was understood before Daniel's prophecy was unsealed cannot be the meaning that was sealed. The time of the end began 1798 - 1844, thus the endtime meaning of Daniel 2 & 7 must be discovered post-1844.

I was surprised with what you state in this Post and similarly in another Post. It is true that some of the Prophecy of Daniel was sealed or hidden to Daniel, and these items would be clearer or become unsealed to the wise at the time of the end. But to claim that Daniel did not understand at least the general import of Daniel 2 is to me very surprising. It is as if you take Daniel 2 and all that it states, cut it into pieces and place them into a hat and pull out a rabbit instead.

 

For example, God has revealed the following details of Daniel 2, and these are no longer hidden:

Daniel 2:36-39 (KJV): 36 This is the dream; and we will tell the interpretation thereof before the king. 37 Thou, O king, art a king of kings: for the God of heaven hath given thee a kingdom, power, and strength, and glory. 38 And wheresoever the children of men dwell, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the heaven hath he given into thine hand, and hath made thee ruler over them all. Thou art this head of gold. 39 And after thee shall arise another kingdom inferior to thee, and another third kingdom of brass, which shall bear rule over all the earth.

Thus the head of the image is clearly interpreted as Babylon, and it does not take much discernment to accept that the kingdom that followed Babylon was the Medo-Persian Empire.

Kind regards
Trevor
 

 

 

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings hch,

The 4 kingdoms are true. They are the seal of God on Daniel 2 & 7

 

But they are not the endtime meaning that was "sealed up until the time of the end."

 

Daniel 12: 4 & 9 specifically state that Daniel's prophecy was sealed, shut-up, & closed until the time of the end.

 

The 4 kingdoms were understood by Roman Christians in the 4th century AD, Luther 1500's, and Newton 1600's all of which were before the Book of Daniel was unsealed and opened.

 

Thus that which was understood before Daniel's prophecy was unsealed cannot be the meaning that was sealed. The time of the end began 1798 - 1844, thus the endtime meaning of Daniel 2 & 7 must be discovered post-1844.

I was surprised with what you state in this Post and similarly in another Post. It is true that some of the Prophecy of Daniel was sealed or hidden to Daniel, and these items would be clearer or become unsealed to the wise at the time of the end. But to claim that Daniel did not understand at least the general import of Daniel 2 is to me very surprising. It is as if you take Daniel 2 and all that it states, cut it into pieces and place them into a hat and pull out a rabbit instead.

 

For example, God has revealed the following details of Daniel 2, and these are no longer hidden:

Daniel 2:36-39 (KJV): 36 This is the dream; and we will tell the interpretation thereof before the king. 37 Thou, O king, art a king of kings: for the God of heaven hath given thee a kingdom, power, and strength, and glory. 38 And wheresoever the children of men dwell, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the heaven hath he given into thine hand, and hath made thee ruler over them all. Thou art this head of gold. 39 And after thee shall arise another kingdom inferior to thee, and another third kingdom of brass, which shall bear rule over all the earth.

Thus the head of the image is clearly interpreted as Babylon, and it does not take much discernment to accept that the kingdom that followed Babylon was the Medo-Persian Empire.

Kind regards
Trevor
 

 

 

 

[8thdaypriest]

No one here believes in a duel prophecy???

 

The four kingdoms which began with ancient Babylon, could be prophetic types, for END TIMES kingdoms. 

 

Else how can the "rest of the beasts" (lion/bear/leopard) still be alive AFTER the "terrible beast" is destroyed??

 

The 4 beasts appear to be contemporaneous - not successive. 

 

NKJ  Daniel 7:11-12 "I watched then because of the sound of the pompous words which the horn was speaking; I watched till the beast was slain, and its body destroyed and given to the burning flame.  "As for the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away, yet their lives were prolonged for a season and a time."

 

Their dominion is given to Christ.  

I think we all would agree that the "terrible beast" with its heads and the little horn attached, is destroyed AT the SC. 

My personal view is that the "rest of the beasts" will come to life at the 8th millennium as part of "the rest of the dead". 

[TrevorL]

Greetings 8thdaypriest,

No one here believes in a duel prophecy???

 

The four kingdoms which began with ancient Babylon, could be prophetic types, for END TIMES kingdoms. 

 

Else how can the "rest of the beasts" (lion/bear/leopard) still be alive AFTER the "terrible beast" is destroyed??

 

The 4 beasts appear to be contemporaneous - not successive. 

 

NKJ  Daniel 7:11-12 "I watched then because of the sound of the pompous words which the horn was speaking; I watched till the beast was slain, and its body destroyed and given to the burning flame.  "As for the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away, yet their lives were prolonged for a season and a time."

 

Their dominion is given to Christ.  

I think we all would agree that the "terrible beast" with its heads and the little horn attached, is destroyed AT the SC. 

My personal view is that the "rest of the beasts" will come to life at the 8th millennium as part of "the rest of the dead". 

Daniel 2 is successive and is a good example or the basis of the continuous historic view of prophecy. Yes, the four beasts are represented at the return of Christ, when he comes to establish his kingdom on the earth for the 7th Millenium. The 4th beast territory appears to be mainly Catholic Europe, and Revelation 17 indicates that these ten kingdom territories will oppose Christ at his return, while the Grecian, Persian, Babylon territories will submit to Christ when he returns. There is no indication in Daniel 2 or 7 of a 1000 year gap as you advocate, rather the contrary as discussed elsewhere. The Kingdom of God upon the earth will be established when Christ returns and overthrows the kingdoms of men.

Kind regards
Trevor
 

[8thdaypriest]

Greetings 8thdaypriest,

Daniel 2 is successive and is a good example or the basis of the continuous historic view of prophecy. Yes, the four beasts are represented at the return of Christ, when he comes to establish his kingdom on the earth for the 7th Millenium. The 4th beast territory appears to be mainly Catholic Europe, and Revelation 17 indicates that these ten kingdom territories will oppose Christ at his return, while the Grecian, Persian, Babylon territories will submit to Christ when he returns. There is no indication in Daniel 2 or 7 of a 1000 year gap as you advocate, rather the contrary as discussed elsewhere. The Kingdom of God upon the earth will be established when Christ returns and overthrows the kingdoms of men.

Kind regards

Trevor

 

The stone strikes the image - the whole image.  The whole image - head, chest, arms, belly, thighs, legs, feet - is "ground to chaff" "which the wind carries away".   Kinda seems like a duel prophecy to me.  These were successive kingdoms, but at the last day they all appear together as one "image" when the stone impacts the feet.   The whole image is ground to chaff.  What happens to the chaff? 

 Luke 3:17 "His winnowing fan is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clean out His threshing floor, and gather the wheat into His barn; but the chaff He will burn with unquenchable fire."

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.

 

If the chaff is burned up, and the wheat is gathered into the LORD's barn (the City which He has prepared for them) then there will be no one left on earth to be "ruled" over, UNTIL there is a resurrection of "the rest of the dead" which takes place 1000 years from the SC. 

 

Blessings,

Rachel Cory

Prophecy Viewpoint

[TrevorL]

Greetings again 8thdaypriest,

The stone strikes the image - the whole image.  The whole image - head, chest, arms, belly, thighs, legs, feet - is "ground to chaff" "which the wind carries away".   Kinda seems like a duel prophecy to me.  These were successive kingdoms, but at the last day they all appear together as one "image" when the stone impacts the feet.   The whole image is ground to chaff.  What happens to the chaff? 

 Luke 3:17 "His winnowing fan is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clean out His threshing floor, and gather the wheat into His barn; but the chaff He will burn with unquenchable fire."

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.

 

If the chaff is burned up, and the wheat is gathered into the LORD's barn (the City which He has prepared for them) then there will be no one left on earth to be "ruled" over, UNTIL there is a resurrection of "the rest of the dead" which takes place 1000 years from the SC. 

I have presented numerous scriptures in the thread “Prophetic Framework Acts 3, Isaiah 2, Daniel 2” that show that there are remnants of the nations left after the Coming of Christ and the judgements at that time. These nations will then become the mortal inhabitants when Christ rules from the throne of David in Jerusalem for the 1000 years. I accept the fact that you reject this view. There will not be any vestige of the kingdoms of men, because they will be fully replaced by the Kingdom of God. The image as a whole represents the kingdoms of men, but the various metals (and beasts of Daniel 7) represent the various phases of the kingdom. Babylon, then Medo-Persia, then Greece, then Rome became dominant, but it was only a continuation of the ONE kingdom of men. I assume you mean “dual prophecy” rather than “duel prophecy”, even though we seem to be continually “dueling” on this issue. I do not consider Daniel 2 (and 7) to be a dual prophecy, rather it has one overall teaching with many parts. Ezekiel 38 and Zechariah 14 give an expanded version of Daniel 2 at the time of Christ’s replacement of the Kingdoms of men with the Kingdom of God that at that time “fills the earth” Daniel 2:35,44, not 1000 years later. Both Ezekiel 38, Zechariah 14, Micah 4 and Isaiah 2 reveal the mortal inhabitants of the 1000 year reign of Christ.

Kind regards
Trevor
 

[hch]

Greetings hch,

I was surprised with what you state in this Post and similarly in another Post. It is true that some of the Prophecy of Daniel was sealed or hidden to Daniel, and these items would be clearer or become unsealed to the wise at the time of the end. But to claim that Daniel did not understand at least the general import of Daniel 2 is to me very surprising. It is as if you take Daniel 2 and all that it states, cut it into pieces and place them into a hat and pull out a rabbit instead.

 

For example, God has revealed the following details of Daniel 2, and these are no longer hidden:

Daniel 2:36-39 (KJV): 36 This is the dream; and we will tell the interpretation thereof before the king. 37 Thou, O king, art a king of kings: for the God of heaven hath given thee a kingdom, power, and strength, and glory. 38 And wheresoever the children of men dwell, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the heaven hath he given into thine hand, and hath made thee ruler over them all. Thou art this head of gold. 39 And after thee shall arise another kingdom inferior to thee, and another third kingdom of brass, which shall bear rule over all the earth.

Thus the head of the image is clearly interpreted as Babylon, and it does not take much discernment to accept that the kingdom that followed Babylon was the Medo-Persian Empire.

Kind regards

Trevor

 

 

Hey Trevor,

 

It is true that they "are no longer hidden" but they were hidden until Daniel was unsealed and opened or God has not kept His word: "Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased" (Daniel 12:4).

 

Where does God say that part of the book is not sealed until the time of the end? Thus the entire book was sealed until it was unsealed when knowledge increased in the endtime. That being true, that which was understood before the book of Daniel was unsealed in the endtime cannot be the endtime meaning.

 

And it is indeed surprising that Daniel 2:36-39 could be quoted that specifically identifies King Nebuchadnezzar as the head of gold and then to see him tossed aside and his kingdom be the head of gold.

 

When God's word states, "Thou art this head of gold" the king is the THOU in that statement. Thus there is a local application to Nebuchadnezzar in that passage that has been overlooked until knowledge has been increased in the edtime. There is a kingdom application to Babylon, M-P, G, & Rome that seal the authenticity of Daniel, and there is an endtime meaning that is revealed when Daniel and Revelation explain themselves:

 

EGW "The prophecies of Daniel and of John are to be understood. They interpret each other. They give to the world truths which every one should understand. These prophecies are to be witnesses in the world. By their fulfillment in these last days they will explain themselves."  {7BC 949.6}

 

It should not be surprising that my SDA brethren have failed to keep studying the prophecies or that their knowledge stopped with that of the pioneers.

 

EGW "The prophetic events related in Nebuchadnezzar's dream were of consequence to him, but the dream was taken from him in order that the wise men should not place upon it a false interpretation. The lessons taught by the dream were given by God for those who live in our day. The inability of the wise men to tell the dream is a representation of the limitations of the wise men of the present day, who, not having wisdom and discernment from the Most High, are unable to understand the prophecies. Although he may be learned in the world's lore, the man who is not listening to hear what the Lord says in his word, and who is not opening his heart to receive this word, that he may give it to others, is not a representative of the God of heaven. Not many great and learned men of the earth will gladly receive the truth unto eternal life, though to all of them the truth will be proclaimed."  {YI, November 24, 1903 par. 1}

 

Knowleged was to increase from EGW's day until now. It has. But it is up to us to keep up with the increased light. Not to rest on the little bit that was known while the pioneers lived.

 

Christian regards,

[hch]

No one here believes in a duel prophecy???

 

The four kingdoms which began with ancient Babylon, could be prophetic types, for END TIMES kingdoms. 

 

Else how can the "rest of the beasts" (lion/bear/leopard) still be alive AFTER the "terrible beast" is destroyed??

 

The 4 beasts appear to be contemporaneous - not successive. 

 

NKJ  Daniel 7:11-12 "I watched then because of the sound of the pompous words which the horn was speaking; I watched till the beast was slain, and its body destroyed and given to the burning flame.  "As for the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away, yet their lives were prolonged for a season and a time."

 

Their dominion is given to Christ.  

I think we all would agree that the "terrible beast" with its heads and the little horn attached, is destroyed AT the SC. 

My personal view is that the "rest of the beasts" will come to life at the 8th millennium as part of "the rest of the dead". 

 

Hey Rachel,

 

As I undrstand it:

 

When heaven explains the vision in Daniel 7 to the prophet, Heaven's interpretation states:

"These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth" (7:17).

 

The local application was to King Nebuchadnezzar's dynasty.

The longterm mening was about the kingdoms from Babylon to Rome.

And the endtime meaning relates to specific kings (rulers)from the earth.

 

Daniel 2:44 --"In the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever."

Christian regards,

 

[JoeMo]

Trevor,

I liked your post #218 above. I agree that there are verses that could imply that there will be a remnant of the nations that Christ will rule over here on earth during the 7th millennium. However, I can also see those verses talking about Christ's rule over the resurrected "rest of the dead" in the 8th millennium as Rachel says. I have wavered back and forth on this for a couple years; but lately I've been leaning towards Rachel's view. She has the most rational explanation of what happens to those whe were not able to make a rational and informed choice for or against Jesys in their earthly life.

[TrevorL]

Greetings again JoeMo and hch,

Trevor,
I liked your post #218 above. I agree that there are verses that could imply that there will be a remnant of the nations that Christ will rule over here on earth during the 7th millennium. However, I can also see those verses talking about Christ's rule over the resurrected "rest of the dead" in the 8th millennium as Rachel says. I have wavered back and forth on this for a couple years; but lately I've been leaning towards Rachel's view. She has the most rational explanation of what happens to those whe were not able to make a rational and informed choice for or against Jesus in their earthly life.

You are entitled to your own conclusions on this matter. I feel that the normal SDA position ignores the detail of many prophecies, and Rachel's view uses some of the normal SDA basis but also restores some of the detail of these prophecies. But I cannot accept the SDA idea of 1000 years of desolation when most of these prophecies speak clearly of Christ's return, some judgements on the nations and then a period of restoration and refreshing to the entering in of the Kingdom of God upon the earth.

 

It is true that they "are no longer hidden" but they were hidden until Daniel was unsealed and opened or God has not kept His word: "Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased" (Daniel 12:4).

 

Where does God say that part of the book is not sealed until the time of the end? Thus the entire book was sealed until it was unsealed when knowledge increased in the endtime. That being true, that which was understood before the book of Daniel was unsealed in the endtime cannot be the endtime meaning.

 

And it is indeed surprising that Daniel 2:36-39 could be quoted that specifically identifies King Nebuchadnezzar as the head of gold and then to see him tossed aside and his kingdom be the head of gold.

 

When God's word states, "Thou art this head of gold" the king is the THOU in that statement. Thus there is a local application to Nebuchadnezzar in that passage that has been overlooked until knowledge has been increased in the endtime. There is a kingdom application to Babylon, M-P, G, & Rome that seal the authenticity of Daniel, and there is an endtime meaning that is revealed when Daniel and Revelation explain themselves:

Although it states that the book was to be sealed to the time of the end, I can only accept that this speaks of the full realisation of ALL the detail. I do not think it speaks of an interpretation that tosses out all of the detail that has already been revealed. What I am trying to say is that the end-time meaning is not different to the meaning already understood by Daniel and the faithful in earlier times. The only difference available now is a better understanding of some of the end-time detail.

 

Kind regards

Trevor

[LifeHiscost]

Greetings again JoeMo and hch,

Kind regards

Trevor

these prophecies speak clearly of Christ's return[unquote]

 

13But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18Wherefore comfort one another with these words. 1 Thess 4:13-18 KJV

 

God is Love! Jesus saves!

[hch]

Greetings again JoeMo and hch,

...Although it states that the book was to be sealed to the time of the end, I can only accept that this speaks of the full realisation of ALL the detail. I do not think it speaks of an interpretation that tosses out all of the detail that has already been revealed. What I am trying to say is that the end-time meaning is not different to the meaning already understood by Daniel and the faithful in earlier times. The only difference available now is a better understanding of some of the end-time detail.

 

Kind regards

Trevor

 

Hey Trevor,

 

Your conclusion is basically the stance taken by most SDA's.

Thus a partial understanding is being allowed to obscure the endtime meaning of Daniel.

 

This is evident by Daniel's vision in chapter 7 as compared to Heaven's interpretation.

 

From the context, Daniel saw 4 sea-beasts arise (7:2-3).

But Heaven's interpretation is of 4 kings from the earth (7:17).

 

Thus Heaven is not explaining what Daniel saw, it is expanding the meaning of the vision.

 

Earth (Revelation 13; Genesis 1:10, 28 & 9:1) and sea (Revelation 17:15; Genesis 1:9) are different

 

Thus to imagine that the sea-kingdoms that sealed the authenticity of Daniel's prophecies

are the same as kings from the earth is a disregard for biblical hermeneutics.

 

The symbolic sea is not the literal earth.

 

And as long as folks lock themselves into that partial understanding, there is no possibility for the prophecy of Daniel open "the full realisation of ALL the detail" regarding the endtime meaning to them.

 

Christian regards,

[TrevorL]

Greetings again hch,

It is true that they "are no longer hidden" but they were hidden until Daniel was unsealed and opened or God has not kept His word: "Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased" (Daniel 12:4).

 

Where does God say that part of the book is not sealed until the time of the end? Thus the entire book was sealed until it was unsealed when knowledge increased in the endtime. That being true, that which was understood before the book of Daniel was unsealed in the endtime cannot be the endtime meaning.

 

And it is indeed surprising that Daniel 2:36-39 could be quoted that specifically identifies King Nebuchadnezzar as the head of gold and then to see him tossed aside and his kingdom be the head of gold.

 

When God's word states, "Thou art this head of gold" the king is the THOU in that statement. Thus there is a local application to Nebuchadnezzar in that passage that has been overlooked until knowledge has been increased in the edtime. There is a kingdom application to Babylon, M-P, G, & Rome that seal the authenticity of Daniel, and there is an endtime meaning that is revealed when Daniel and Revelation explain themselves:

I understand this to say that some of the detail of prophecy will become clear at the time of the sufferings of Christ, for example Isaiah 53 and at the time of the end, for example Daniel 2,7,8,11,12. The following seems to allude to what is stated in Daniel 12:
1 Peter 1:10-12 (KJV): 10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: 11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow. 12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Spirit sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

I have never read a coherent exposition of Daniel 2, 7, 8, 11 or 12 that gives a different perspective to the broad outline of understanding of these chapters. Thus “Thou art this head of gold” and “after thee shall arise another kingdom”, do not in my estimation have a different latter-day, or end-time interpretation. I can accept that Isaiah 53 is a dual prophecy, because some of the detail can be understood through the vista of Hezekiah, but the application to Hezekiah fails in some detail, but the application to the sufferings of Christ are complete. Similarly I see a dual application of Isaiah 2 in Uzziah’s and Hezekiah’s day, but again the prophecy is to be fulfilled at the Second Coming of Christ. Thus I do not accept that Daniel 2, 7, 9, 11, 12 are dual prophecies, especially if the end-time view of these prophecies are radically different to that which is already simple and clear.

Kind regards
Trevor
 

[hch]

Greetings again hch... Thus I do not accept that Daniel 2, 7, 9, 11, 12 are dual prophecies, especially if the end-time view of these prophecies are radically different to that which is already simple and clear.

Kind regards

Trevor

 

 

Hey Trevor,

 

EGW wrote in 1900 "The prophecies of Daniel and of John are to be understood. They interpret each other. They give to the world truths which every one should understand. These prophecies are to be witnesses in the world. By their fulfillment in these last days they will explain themselves." When she wrote that Daniel and John by their fulfillment in these last days they will explain themselves, she was not talking about Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, and Rome.

 

Daniel 2 and 4 are excellent examples of popular prophetic misunderstandings. In a previous post you mentioned "Thou art this head of gold" in Daniel 2 and immediately applied the prophecy not to King Nebuchadnezzar, but to his kingdom Babylon. Was that by faith or sight? By faith, the word of Daniel to the king applies to the king. Thus there must be an application to the king to fulfill the words of God's prophet to the king. By sight the translators saw that Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece and Rome fulfilled the prophecy and they translated it as such conveying their understanding to everyone who reads their rendition of Daniel 2.

 

In Daniel 4, the prophet said to the king: "The tree that thou sawest, which grew, and was strong, whose height reached unto the heaven, and the sight thereof to all the earth; 21  Whose leaves were fair, and the fruit thereof much, and in it was meat for all; under which the beasts of the field dwelt, and upon whose branches the fowls of the heaven had their habitation: 22  It is thou, O king" (Daniel 4:20-22). Simply put 'Thou O king art the tree.' But notice, Daniel 4 is immediately applied to King Nebuchadnezzar, but not to his kingdom Babylon. Why the inconsistency between the application of Daniel 2 & 4?

 

By sight the application of Daniel 4 is applied to the king. By faith spiritual Babylon receives a deadly wound in the endtime that is healed, but there is no mention of the fate of the spiritual kingdom in the commentaries on Daniel 4. By sight it is not seen. Though by faith it is obvious.

 

By sight Daniel 2 is limited to the kingdom and Daniel 4 is limited to the king. When in fact, they both have applications to the king and the kingdom. So man limits the meaning of God's word to their narrow view. Then when God's word is expanded and explained in the endtime, man's limitations refuses to let the full meaning of the prophecy speak for itself because it goes beyond the parameters that man has set. Thus God's word is limited to man's understanding no matter what it is saying.

 

Human reasoning is problematic when it comes to understanding Bible prophecy. It is like medical science. They used to bleed patients to take out the "bad blood" and it killed patients. Then they started giving transfusions and that killed some patients before they understood typing and cross matching and transmission of diseases through the blood. Knowledge has increased in medical science. And if a doctor continued to practice medicine without keeping up with the advances in medical science, they would take away his medical license or sue him for malpractice.

 

And  what of Biblical knowledge. Light moves from truth to truth. If those who are in the light stay put, they will soon be in darkness. The pro-circumcision party had the light in Abraham's day. But it was in darkness in Paul's day. Sacrificing animals was ordained of God from Adam to Calvary. Those who would do it today are denying the Lamb of God, Christ Jesus. Thus as light has moved regarding circumcision and animal sacrifices, it has moved regarding Christ's ministration in Heaven (He moved from the Holy to the Most Holy in 1844) and Bible prophecy has move from partial fulfillment to complete fulfillment in many instances. And those who have not moved with the advancement of light to light may be heading for darkness if they are not already there. And it is more deadly for a Christian to be in Spiritual darkness than for a patient to be injured by a doctor who is not up to date. The Christian that is not following the light can believe and teach lies that will have eternal consequences.

 

Consider the message to the Laodiceans. It is not a message that says that they have everything right. It is a message that they need to get their vision problem corrected. They think that they are all right, but they are poor, naked and blind. IMHO: Take care of the blindness first, then the other problems will take care of themselves.

 

Christian regards

[Samie]

As to the identity of the Little Horn of Daniel 8,

KJV Daniel 8:23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.  24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: ...

 

Whose power?

KJV Revelation 13:2   And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.

 

Clearly, the beast to whom the dragon gave his power is the little horn of Dan 8.  When will the beast appear in the arena of earth's history?

KJV Daniel 8:11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.

 

The activities of the beast when he appears in the arena of earth's history include the taking away of the "daily".  The taking away of the "daily" is directly related with the abomination of desolation:

KJV Daniel 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

 

Our Master Teacher Himself said that the setting up of the abomination of desolation will trigger a rapid succession of events culminating in the 2nd Coming (Matt 24:15-31).  Therefore, the beast will appear in the arena of earth's history shortly before the 2nd Coming.

 

Simple. Biblical.

[TrevorL]

Greetings again hch,

EGW wrote in 1900 "The prophecies of Daniel and of John are to be understood. They interpret each other. They give to the world truths which every one should understand. These prophecies are to be witnesses in the world. By their fulfillment in these last days they will explain themselves." When she wrote that Daniel and John by their fulfillment in these last days they will explain themselves, she was not talking about Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, and Rome.

 

Daniel 2 and 4 are excellent examples of popular prophetic misunderstandings. In a previous post you mentioned "Thou art this head of gold" in Daniel 2 and immediately applied the prophecy not to King Nebuchadnezzar, but to his kingdom Babylon. Was that by faith or sight? By faith, the word of Daniel to the king applies to the king. Thus there must be an application to the king to fulfill the words of God's prophet to the king. By sight the translators saw that Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece and Rome fulfilled the prophecy and they translated it as such conveying their understanding to everyone who reads their rendition of Daniel 2.

 

I would like to concentrate on Daniel 2 rather than Daniel 4 at the moment. I see no difficulty with Daniel saying that Nebuchadnezzar was the head of gold. He was the king and represented Babylon, so that Nebuchadnezzar and Babylon at that time were synonymous. The overthrow of Babylon, the gold of the image was when Belshazzar was king, not the overthrow of Nebuchadnezzar, as he was already dead. You seem to indicate that EG White considered that in these last days that the four metals of Daniel 2 “was not talking about Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, and Rome”. Did she indicate what the four metals represented, or possibly more relevant what is your understanding of these four metals of Daniel 2? I found your comments on Daniel 4 confusing.
 

And  what of Biblical knowledge. Light moves from truth to truth. If those who are in the light stay put, they will soon be in darkness. The pro-circumcision party had the light in Abraham's day. But it was in darkness in Paul's day. Sacrificing animals was ordained of God from Adam to Calvary. Those who would do it today are denying the Lamb of God, Christ Jesus. Thus as light has moved regarding circumcision and animal sacrifices, it has moved regarding Christ's ministration in Heaven (He moved from the Holy to the Most Holy in 1844) and Bible prophecy has move from partial fulfillment to complete fulfillment in many instances. And those who have not moved with the advancement of light to light may be heading for darkness if they are not already there. And it is more deadly for a Christian to be in Spiritual darkness than for a patient to be injured by a doctor who is not up to date. The Christian that is not following the light can believe and teach lies that will have eternal consequences.

I do not accept your understanding of 1844. I have explained my understanding of the 2300 years as applicable mainly to BC 334-333 to AD 1967 when the Jews retook the city of Jerusalem.

Kind regards
Trevor