Little horn of Dan 8

[hch]

Greetings again hch,

I would like to concentrate on Daniel 2 rather than Daniel 4 at the moment. I see no difficulty with Daniel saying that Nebuchadnezzar was the head of gold. He was the king and represented Babylon, so that Nebuchadnezzar and Babylon at that time were synonymous. The overthrow of Babylon, the gold of the image was when Belshazzar was king, not the overthrow of Nebuchadnezzar, as he was already dead. You seem to indicate that EG White considered that in these last days that the four metals of Daniel 2 “was not talking about Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, and Rome”. Did she indicate what the four metals represented, or possibly more relevant what is your understanding of these four metals of Daniel 2? I found your comments on Daniel 4 confusing.

 

I do not accept your understanding of 1844. I have explained my understanding of the 2300 years as applicable mainly to BC 334-333 to AD 1967 when the Jews retook the city of Jerusalem.

Kind regards

Trevor

 

 

Hey Trevor,

 

I had not encountered your view of which you speak. But since you reject the light about 1844, is it possible to move from light to greater light?

 

Christian regards

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Samie and hch,

As to the identity of the Little Horn of Daniel 8,

 

Whose power?

 

Clearly, the beast to whom the dragon gave his power is the little horn of Dan 8.  When will the beast appear in the arena of earth's history?

 

The activities of the beast when he appears in the arena of earth's history include the taking away of the "daily".  The taking away of the "daily" is directly related with the abomination of desolation:

 

Our Master Teacher Himself said that the setting up of the abomination of desolation will trigger a rapid succession of events culminating in the 2nd Coming (Matt 24:15-31).  Therefore, the beast will appear in the arena of earth's history shortly before the 2nd Coming.

 

A comparison between Matthew 24 and Luke 21 shows that the abomination of desolation that Jesus speaks about in the Olivet prophecy is the Roman army who overthrew Jerusalem in AD 70, as discussed elsewhere.

 

 

I had not encountered your view of which you speak. But since you reject the light about 1844, is it possible to move from light to greater light?

I presented my view shortly after joining this forum. I was looking for an interesting thread or a subject to start with, and if you check Page 2 Post #23 you will see that I revived an old thread (10th December 2013 – my Post 29th May 2014). I then posted #25,27 and 30 and possibly others. I decided to then start a new thread “Prophetic Framework – Acts 3, Isaiah 2, Daniel 2”. The Daniel 8 thread has continued for some time now. I purposely chose both of the above threads because of my differences with the standard SDA view of prophecy.

You seem very convinced by the 1844 teaching, and I assume that you represent the SDA position on this.

Not sure of what you are asking concerning light, but the following verses are interesting:
Proverbs 4:18-19 (KJV): 18 But the path of the just is as the shining light, that shineth more and more unto the perfect day. 19 The way of the wicked is as darkness: they know not at what they stumble.
John 12:35-36 (KJV): 35 Then Jesus said unto them, Yet a little while is the light with you. Walk while ye have the light, lest darkness come upon you: for he that walketh in darkness knoweth not whither he goeth. 36 While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be the children of light. These things spake Jesus, and departed, and did hide himself from them.

Kind regards
Trevor
 

[hch]

Greetings again Samie and hch,

A comparison between Matthew 24 and Luke 21 shows that the abomination of desolation that Jesus speaks about in the Olivet prophecy is the Roman army who overthrew Jerusalem in AD 70, as discussed elsewhere.

 

I presented my view shortly after joining this forum. I was looking for an interesting thread or a subject to start with, and if you check Page 2 Post #23 you will see that I revived an old thread (10th December 2013 – my Post 29th May 2014). I then posted #25,27 and 30 and possibly others. I decided to then start a new thread “Prophetic Framework – Acts 3, Isaiah 2, Daniel 2”. The Daniel 8 thread has continued for some time now. I purposely chose both of the above threads because of my differences with the standard SDA view of prophecy.

You seem very convinced by the 1844 teaching, and I assume that you represent the SDA position on this.

Not sure of what you are asking concerning light, but the following verses are interesting:

Proverbs 4:18-19 (KJV): 18 But the path of the just is as the shining light, that shineth more and more unto the perfect day. 19 The way of the wicked is as darkness: they know not at what they stumble.

John 12:35-36 (KJV): 35 Then Jesus said unto them, Yet a little while is the light with you. Walk while ye have the light, lest darkness come upon you: for he that walketh in darkness knoweth not whither he goeth. 36 While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be the children of light. These things spake Jesus, and departed, and did hide himself from them.

Kind regards

Trevor

 

 

Hey Trevor,

 

Being a 4th generation SDA, I have made it a point to study the Bible and Spirit of prophecy to know that SDA beliefs are in agreement. They are. Unfortunately, some trash has crept into the church that is "supposed" to be biblical, but looks like it came in when some folks joined the church and brought t with them. But the Lord will take care of that in His time.

 

If you have found a partial fulfillment of the abomination of desolation in Roman times, that is great as long as it is understood as being a partial fulfillment and not allowed to preempt the final fulfillment that is to come in the endtime. If it were to be considered to be anything more than a partial fulfillment, it will become a road block to keep the soul from more light.

 

As you noted if one does not walk in the light when it is shining on their path, it leaves them. So all must be diligent to follow the light lest it moves and they be left in darkness.

 

Christian regards,

[TrevorL]

Greetings again hch,

Being a 4th generation SDA, I have made it a point to study the Bible and Spirit of prophecy to know that SDA beliefs are in agreement. They are. Unfortunately, some trash has crept into the church that is "supposed" to be biblical, but looks like it came in when some folks joined the church and brought t with them. But the Lord will take care of that in His time.

My examination of SDA beliefs speaks to me that the SDA views are not consistent with Bible prophecy. I have briefly discussed my conclusions in this thread and the “Prophetic Framework” thread. I am only a 3rd generation believer on my mother’s side and 2nd generation on my father’s side in this aspect of prophecy, but it is individual belief that is important. My understanding is gleaned more from reading the Word of God, listening to faithful expositors and comparing my understanding with people of different persuasion, such as SDAs. I remember about 50 years ago speaking to a SDA in the Sydney Domain, where they have Public speaking. We discussed some of his views, and I asked him about Zechariah 14. He was honest enough to confide that he could not understand Zechariah 14. Since then I have not received a simple or clear explanation of Zechariah 14 from any SDA, despite requesting this on a number of occasions.
 

If you have found a partial fulfillment of the abomination of desolation in Roman times, that is great as long as it is understood as being a partial fulfillment and not allowed to preempt the final fulfillment that is to come in the endtime. If it were to be considered to be anything more than a partial fulfillment, it will become a road block to keep the soul from more light.

I consider Matthew 24 and Luke 21 to be speaking of the Roman army in AD70 in fulfillment of the following two passages:
Daniel 8:9-14 (KJV): 9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land. 10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them. 11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down. 12 And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered. 13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot? 14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.
Daniel 9:26-27 (KJV): 26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. 27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

I also believe that in the time of the end the King of the North will also invade Israel and Jerusalem, and thus be another “abomination” that makes “desolate”.
Daniel 11:40-45 (KJV): 40 And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him: and the king of the north shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over. 41 He shall enter also into the glorious land, and many countries shall be overthrown: but these shall escape out of his hand, even Edom, and Moab, and the chief of the children of Ammon. 42 He shall stretch forth his hand also upon the countries: and the land of Egypt shall not escape. 43 But he shall have power over the treasures of gold and of silver, and over all the precious things of Egypt: and the Libyans and the Ethiopians shall be at his steps. 44 But tidings out of the east and out of the north shall trouble him: therefore he shall go forth with great fury to destroy, and utterly to make away many. 45 And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.

Even in the above passage that speaks of the time of the end, I do not know if the SDAs have a clear understanding of this passage, as they do not think Israel, made up of the natural descendants of Jacob have any part in the future Kingdom of God upon the earth.

Kind regards
Trevor
 

[hch]

Trevor:

Greetings again Samie and hch,

A comparison between Matthew 24 and Luke 21 shows that the abomination of desolation that Jesus speaks about in the Olivet prophecy is the Roman army who overthrew Jerusalem in AD 70, as discussed elsewhere.

 

 

Henry:Hey Trevor,

Matthew 24 is a great example of a prophecy with a local application and an endtime application. Seeing the first fulfillment, we can be confident that the final fulfillment will come at the appointed time

 

 

Trevor: I presented my view shortly after joining this forum. I was looking for an interesting thread or a subject to start with, and if you check Page 2 Post #23 you will see that I revived an old thread (10th December 2013 – my Post 29th May 2014). I then posted #25,27 and 30 and possibly others. I decided to then start a new thread “Prophetic Framework – Acts 3, Isaiah 2, Daniel 2”. The Daniel 8 thread has continued for some time now. I purposely chose both of the above threads because of my differences with the standard SDA view of prophecy.

 

Henry: It seems like that thread became like a hydra. Before anything could nailed down two more topics were spinning out of control. As I recall I stopped following it. So I probably missed your revelations.

 

Trevor: You seem very convinced by the 1844 teaching, and I assume that you represent the SDA position on this.

 

Henry: I am a truth seeker. the 1844 SDA position is true as far as it goes.

Trevor: Not sure of what you are asking concerning light, but the following verses are interesting:
Proverbs 4:18-19 (KJV): 18 But the path of the just is as the shining light, that shineth more and more unto the perfect day. 19 The way of the wicked is as darkness: they know not at what they stumble.
John 12:35-36 (KJV): 35 Then Jesus said unto them, Yet a little while is the light with you. Walk while ye have the light, lest darkness come upon you: for he that walketh in darkness knoweth not whither he goeth. 36 While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be the children of light. These things spake Jesus, and departed, and did hide himself from them.

 

Henry: Anyone who rejects the truth when it is presented to them by the Holy Spirit, bars the door from having more truth presented. The children of light do not walk in darkness.

 

Christian regards

[Samie]

A comparison between Matthew 24 and Luke 21 shows that the abomination of desolation that Jesus speaks about in the Olivet prophecy is the Roman army who overthrew Jerusalem in AD 70, as discussed elsewhere.

I suggest, do the comparison again.

 

In Matthew 24:15, Jesus spoke about the AoD spoken of by Daniel the prophet. In Daniel, the AoD is an image, an idol. "abomination" is from the Hebrew #WQåvi (shiqquts).

 

I don't think the Roman army was an idol or image just like Milcom, Chemosh, Astoreth, or Dagon.

[LifeHiscost]

As to the identity of the Little Horn of Daniel 8,

Our Master Teacher Himself said that the setting up of the abomination of desolation will trigger a rapid succession of events culminating in the 2nd Coming[unquote]    

 

Yeeah!!!

 

[LifeHiscost]

Trevor,

... lately I've been leaning towards Rachel's view. She has the most rational explanation of what happens to those whe were not able to make a rational and informed choice for or against Jesys in their earthly life.

For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened.…Romans 1: 20-21

 

6The angel said to me, “These words are trustworthy and true. The Lord, the God who inspires the prophets, sent his angel to show his servants the things that must soon take place.”

7“Look, I am coming soon! Blessed is the one who keeps the words of the prophecy written in this scroll.”

8I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I had heard and seen them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who had been showing them to me. 9But he said to me, “Don’t do that! I am a fellow servant with you and with your fellow prophets and with all who keep the words of this scroll. Worship God!”

10Then he told me, “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this scroll, because the time is near. 11Let the one who does wrong continue to do wrong; let the vile person continue to be vile; let the one who does right continue to do right; and let the holy person continue to be holy.”

Epilogue: Invitation and Warning

12“Look, I am coming soon! My reward is with Me, and I will give to each person according to what they have done. 13I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.Rev 22 NIV Underlined mine LHC

 

Rev 22 is the best explanation of the end of the 6th millennium that appears in the Word. Since a reward would properly be given when the activity deserving the reward is complete, I cannot envision ought to be in the future for the redeemed, except this.

 

1Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, as clear as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb 2down the middle of the great street of the city. On each side of the river stood the tree of life, bearing twelve crops of fruit, yielding its fruit every month. And the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations. 3No longer will there be any curse. The throne of God and of the Lamb will be in the city, and his servants will serve him. 4They will see his face, and his name will be on their foreheads. 5There will be no more night. They will not need the light of a lamp or the light of the sun, for the Lord God will give them light. And they will reign for ever and ever. Rev 22

 

13But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18Wherefore comfort one another with these words. 1 Thess 4

 

Even so, come quickly, Lord Jesus!

 

God is Love! Jesus saves!

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Henry (hch) and Samie,

Matthew 24 is a great example of a prophecy with a local application and an endtime application. Seeing the first fulfillment, we can be confident that the final fulfillment will come at the appointed time

Trevor: Not sure of what you are asking concerning light, but the following verses are interesting:
Proverbs 4:18-19 (KJV): 18 But the path of the just is as the shining light, that shineth more and more unto the perfect day. 19 The way of the wicked is as darkness: they know not at what they stumble.
John 12:35-36 (KJV): 35 Then Jesus said unto them, Yet a little while is the light with you. Walk while ye have the light, lest darkness come upon you: for he that walketh in darkness knoweth not whither he goeth. 36 While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be the children of light. These things spake Jesus, and departed, and did hide himself from them.

 

Henry: Anyone who rejects the truth when it is presented to them by the Holy Spirit, bars the door from having more truth presented. The children of light do not walk in darkness.

 

I am not convinced that all the details of Matthew 24 and Luke 21 that have already been fulfilled in AD 70 will be repeated at the 2nd Coming. Consider especially the detail in Luke 21 concerning the treading down of Jerusalem after AD 70. Are you claiming that I have rejected the Holy Spirit speaking through EG White, or the Holy Spirit speaking through your statements?

 

I suggest, do the comparison again.

 

In Matthew 24:15, Jesus spoke about the AoD spoken of by Daniel the prophet. In Daniel, the AoD is an image, an idol. "abomination" is from the Hebrew #WQåvi (shiqquts).

 

I don't think the Roman army was an idol or image just like Milcom, Chemosh, Astoreth, or Dagon.

As requested, the following is the comparison between Matthew 24 and Luke 21.
Matthew 24:15-16 (KJV): 15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
Luke 21:20-21 (KJV): 20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. 21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
The above seems to me to be speaking of the one event: the desolation of Jerusalem by the Roman armies in AD 70.

Luke 21:22-24 (KJV): 22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. 24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
I would like to draw your attention specifically to verse 24. This speaks of the aftermath of AD70, where the Jews were led into captivity; consider for example the Arch of Titus depicting the capture of the Jews. It also states that after AD 70 Jerusalem was to be trodden down of the Gentiles, and again this has happened, and this has partly been reversed in the events of AD 1967.

Kind regards
Trevor
 

[Samie]

Hi Trevor;

 

I could be wrong, but I am not a subscriber of the apotelesmatic principle.  I believe that all prophecies related with the setting up of the abomination of desolation will find fulfillment shortly before the 2nd Coming.  Among these prophecies are the 2300 days, 70 weeks, etc. I simply based my position with what our Master Teacher Himself taught His disciples.

 

As to your comparison of Matt 24:15 - 16 with Luke 21:20 - 21, I wonder why you did not consult with Daniel, when the Savior Himself referred to the abomination of desolation as spoken of by Daniel the prophet. 

 

And the issue is the identity of the "abomination", NOT the "desolation".

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Samie,

I could be wrong, but I am not a subscriber of the apotelesmatic principle.  I believe that all prophecies related with the setting up of the abomination of desolation will find fulfillment shortly before the 2nd Coming.  Among these prophecies are the 2300 days, 70 weeks, etc. I simply based my position with what our Master Teacher Himself taught His disciples.

 

As to your comparison of Matt 24:15 - 16 with Luke 21:20 - 21, I wonder why you did not consult with Daniel, when the Savior Himself referred to the abomination of desolation as spoken of by Daniel the prophet. 

 

And the issue is the identity of the "abomination", NOT the "desolation".

I have downloaded an article “The Apotelesmatic Principle: Origin and Application” by Robert Ouro, Spain in the Journal of the Adventist Theological Society 1998 and this seems to be arguing against the position held by Dr Desmond Ford in 1980. I have not had time to digest this 17-page article, but it appears that Dr Desmond Ford argued against some aspects of the normal SDA view. My impression is that you have a different view to both Dr Ford and the SDA position. My own view is different to all three views, so we are starting to complicate things.

I cannot accept your view of the Abomination of Desolation. As well as referring to my previous Post (#237) could you also reconsider my earlier Post #232 as to the identity of the abomination of Desolation. I have set forth my view of the 2300 days on Page 2 as well, representing mainly the period BC 333-334 to AD 1967.

Kind regards
Trevor
 

[Samie]

Hi Trevor;

 

You are insinuating that the AoD spoken of by Daniel the prophet found fulfillment in the Roman Army of Titus in AD70.  For me, your position cannot pass the test of Scriptures.

 

1.  It was our Savior Who said that the AoD in question is the one referred to by Daniel the prophet. Therefore, there is a need that Daniel be consulted to guide us in ascertaining the identity of the abomination that causes desolation. As I have pointed out, in Daniel, "abomination"  is from the Hebrew #WQvi  (shiqquts) which is an idol, an image.

 

But the Roman Army is not a graven image nor an idol like Astoreth, Chemosh, etc..

 

2. The Savior also explained that the setting up of the AoD will trigger the great tribulation, the occurrence of which will be cut short, and that when this great tribulation ends, the 2nd Coming ensues just after the occurrence of unusual celestial phenomena.  see Matt 24:15-31.

 

But there was no great tribulation that occurred when the Roman Army was set up in Jerusalem.

 

If there was, then that tribulation has not yet ended till now, otherwise there would have occurred unusual celestial phenomena and Jesus would have returned.  And if the great tribulation that started since the first century is in existence till now, then it's not the one referred to by our Lord, because the occurrence of the great tribulation to which He was referring to will be shortened in favor of the elect to remain alive until the 2nd Coming.

 

For me, the AoD is the image of the beast (Rev 13:14,15)).  It is a "shiqquts". It will cause desolation to the end-time people of God, shortly before the 2nd Coming. see Dan 11:21 - Dan 12:2; 2 Thes 2:1 - 9; Rev 13:15.

 

You may post your objections to my position and I will try my best to defend my position with Scriptures.

 

Let's take up AoD first, then we'll tackle 2300 days.

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Samie,

You are insinuating that the AoD spoken of by Daniel the prophet found fulfillment in the Roman Army of Titus in AD70.  For me, your position cannot pass the test of Scriptures.

 

1.  It was our Savior Who said that the AoD in question is the one referred to by Daniel the prophet. Therefore, there is a need that Daniel be consulted to guide us in ascertaining the identity of the abomination that causes desolation. As I have pointed out, in Daniel, "abomination"  is from the Hebrew #WQvi  (shiqquts) which is an idol, an image.

 

But the Roman Army is not a graven image nor an idol like Astoreth, Chemosh, etc..

 

For me, the AoD is the image of the beast (Rev 13:14,15)).  It is a "shiqquts". It will cause desolation to the end-time people of God, shortly before the 2nd Coming. see Dan 11:21 - Dan 12:2; 2 Thes 2:1 - 9; Rev 13:15.

 

You may post your objections to my position and I will try my best to defend my position with Scriptures.

 

Let's take up AoD first, then we'll tackle 2300 days.

I have quoted your last Post but excluded Item 2 possibly for a future time, mainly because I believe that it is another matter. I have had a brief look at the word abomination. It is part of a range of words that speak of something detestable or unclean and also the specific word S# H8251 is usually applied to idolatry. I doubt that this specific word has to be narrowly applied only to idolatry, but if you insist then even setting up the Roman standard of the eagle in the Temple area would be a desecration or a detestable thing, and in that sense an idol or false worship. The Romans would attribute their success to their own prowess and power, rather than Judah and Jerusalem being judged for their iniquity at the hand of God. The symbol of the eagle in the cherubim was a caring, spiritual aspect of the Divine character, not the aggressive, conquering symbol of the Roman eagle.

In the context of Matthew 24 and Luke 21 “abomination” is speaking of the desecration of the Temple and its worship by the Romans in AD 70. Jesus is quoting and alluding to Daniel 8 and 9 and both of these chapters speak firstly of the crucifixion of Christ and then the immediate aftermath, the judgement of Judah and Jerusalem similar to the parable of the husbandmen in Matthew 21:33-44. Again I remind you that by comparing Scripture with Scripture, Luke interprets the abomination that makes desolate of Matthew’s account as the Roman armies.

Also the context of Olivet Prophecy clearly shows that Jesus was speaking of the events of AD 70, the destruction of the Temple at Jerusalem:
Luke 21:5-7 (KJV): 5 And as some spake of the temple, how it was adorned with goodly stones and gifts, he said, 6 As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. 7 And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass? 

The two beasts of Revelation 13:1,11 speak of the development or different aspects of the 4th beast of Daniel 7, at a later time than AD 70 and is not directly connected with the Abomination of Desolation of Matthew 24, or in other words the armies of Luke 21. The faithful are not now in Judaea and will not need to flee to the mountains when Jerusalem is surrounded by armies in the future. Yes Judah and Jerusalem will be invaded by an army or armies in the near future.

You continue to ignore the long period of treading down of literal Jerusalem, after the desolation of Jerusalem in AD 70.
Luke 21:22-24 (KJV): 22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. 24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

Kind regards
Trevor
 

[Samie]

Hi Trevor;

 

Nothing in your posts seem to go along with the words of Jesus that the "abomination of desolation" is that which was spoken of by Daniel the prophet. Why? Please explain.

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Samie,

Nothing in your posts seem to go along with the words of Jesus that the "abomination of desolation" is that which was spoken of by Daniel the prophet. Why? Please explain.

I feel that I have explained my understanding of the Abomination of Desolation sufficiently and do not want to continually repeat this explanation. I am willing to accept that you view these things differently. I would be interested in how you understand Luke 21:20-24. Especially could you please explain v24 - when did this happen? - or is it yet to happen?. As stated in my earlier Posts I think this is relevant to this thread, as I believe that Jesus is here quoting and alluding to Daniel 8.

On another matter, I notice that you are located in the Philippines. My two daughter-in-laws come from Cebu and Mindinao, and the second has family in Bohol.

Kind regards
Trevor
 

[Samie]

Hi Trevor;

 

Luke 21:20-24 is yet to happen, because, just 3 verses away is the 2nd Coming.

 

Why not in AD70?

 

Because those verses are in response to the question posed by His disciples when the Lord said in Luke 21:6   "As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down." His disciples asked in the next verse: v7   And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?

 

The destruction of Jerusalem in AD70 did not result in "there shall not be left one stone upon another". Proof: the Wailing Wall.

 

And Yes, it is related to Daniel 8. And also to Daniel 7, 9, 11 & 12.  All prophecies related with the abomination of desolation (AoD) will all find fulfillment shortly before the 2nd Coming, based on what our Lord Himself said.  The "taking away of the daily" is spoken of in those chapters. And the "taking away of the daily" is precursory to the setting up of the AoD.  These two events are separated by 1290 literal days (Dan 12:11).

 

The setting up of the AoD will trigger the Great Tribulation (Great Distress in Luke 21:23) which God will shorten for the sake of the elect who are to remain alive up to the 2nd Coming. And IMMEDIATELY AFTER the Great Tribulation, unusual celestial phenomena will occur which will be capped by our Lord's return.

 

And am real glad you have grandchildren with Filipino blood in them.

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Samie,

The "taking away of the daily" is spoken of in those chapters. And the "taking away of the daily" is precursory to the setting up of the AoD.  These two events are separated by 1290 literal days (Dan 12:11).

I appreciate your response. My understanding of "the daily" was the evening and the morning burnt offerings that were dedicated upon the altar of burnt offering at the Temple. These "daily" burnt offerings were taken away or abolished when the Roman army desolated Jerusalem. At that time, AD70  the Jews were taken into captivity and Jerusalem has been trodden down of the Gentiles as predicted in Luke 21:24. These details are unique and I do not understand how you can claim that these events are future.

 

Kind regards

Trevor

[Samie]

Hi Trevor;

Greetings again Samie,

I appreciate your response. My understanding of "the daily" was the evening and the morning burnt offerings that were dedicated upon the altar of burnt offering at the Temple. These "daily" burnt offerings were taken away or abolished when the Roman army desolated Jerusalem. At that time, AD70  the Jews were taken into captivity and Jerusalem has been trodden down of the Gentiles as predicted in Luke 21:24. These details are unique and I do not understand how you can claim that these events are future.

 

Kind regards

Trevor

The perceived fulfillment that you said occurred in AD 70, did not meet the specification of the predicted event:

 

1. Jesus said that no stone shall be left on top of another. A whole wall still stands up to now. The wailing wall is built of stones on top of other stones.

2. Scriptures say that 1290 days after the "taking away of the daily", the AoD shall be set up.  There was no record that the AoD spoken of by Daniel the prophet has been set up 1290 days after the destruction of Jerusalem in AD70.

 

Therefore, the event predicted was NOT fulfilled by what you say is the event that fulfilled it.

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Samie,

The perceived fulfillment that you said occurred in AD 70, did not meet the specification of the predicted event:

 

1. Jesus said that no stone shall be left on top of another. A whole wall still stands up to now. The wailing wall is built of stones on top of other stones.

2. Scriptures say that 1290 days after the "taking away of the daily", the AoD shall be set up.  There was no record that the AoD spoken of by Daniel the prophet has been set up 1290 days after the destruction of Jerusalem in AD70.

 

Therefore, the event predicted was NOT fulfilled by what you say is the event that fulfilled it.

I appreciate your latest response. To briefly state my position, I am say 95% confident of my understanding of Daniel 8, Daniel 9, Matthew 24 and Luke 21. I believe that Jesus in Matthew 24 and Luke 21 is quoting and alluding to Daniel 8 and Daniel 9 and not Daniel 12:11 when he speaks of the Abomination of Desolation. I also believe that every stone of the Temple was cast down, and that the remaining “Wailing Wall” is only a remnant of the outer supporting wall for the platform of the Temple. I have not come to a proper assessment of the details of Daniel 12:11 as yet. I need to consider this particular passage before commenting on this in detail, but my initial view is that while Daniel 8 and 9 speak of the Roman destruction of Jerusalem, Daniel 12 could be speaking of the present Moslem presence on the Temple Mount.

Kind regards
Trevor
 

[Samie]

Greetings again Samie,

I appreciate your latest response. To briefly state my position, I am say 95% confident of my understanding of Daniel 8, Daniel 9, Matthew 24 and Luke 21. I believe that Jesus in Matthew 24 and Luke 21 is quoting and alluding to Daniel 8 and Daniel 9 and not Daniel 12:11 when he speaks of the Abomination of Desolation. I also believe that every stone of the Temple was cast down, and that the remaining “Wailing Wall” is only a remnant of the outer supporting wall for the platform of the Temple. I have not come to a proper assessment of the details of Daniel 12:11 as yet. I need to consider this particular passage before commenting on this in detail, but my initial view is that while Daniel 8 and 9 speak of the Roman destruction of Jerusalem, Daniel 12 could be speaking of the present Moslem presence on the Temple Mount.

Kind regards

Trevor

 

 

Our Savior referred to one specific AoD: that which was spoken of by Daniel the prophet. Had Daniel spoke of more than one AoD, our Master Teacher would have so indicated in His discourse.  But He spoke of THE abomination (Greek to. bde,lugma).

[The Searcher]

“Seventy weeks are determined concerning your people and concerning your holy city in order to finish the rebellion and in order to get rid of the sins and in order to reconcile guilt and in order to bring in eternal justice and in order to confirm the vision and prophecy and in order to anoint a holy of holies.

Now know and understand from a decree of a word in order to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until an anointed prince seven weeks and sixty and two weeks. A and the moat will return and be rebuilt, but in an oppression of time.

And after sixty and two weeks an anointed one will be cut down and there will be nothing for him. And a people of the commander who comes will wipe away the city and the holy, and its end in a flood, and, until battle's end, desolations are determined.

And he will confirm a covenant for the many one week, and a half of the week, he will put an end to sacrifices and offerings. And from a beginning of abominations which desolate and until annihilation also that which is determined will be poured out upon that which is desolated.”, Daniel 9.24 – 27.

 

Observe very closely that Daniel is told that the Jewish people will return from exile and will rebuild the city with moat and plaza.  The rebuilding of the city will take approximately seven weeks.  This clearly indicates that this time period must be prophetic because no city would be built in seven literal weeks.  Instead forty nine years makes more sense.  So from the context we can derive that the times spoken of here is prophetic time, a day for a year.  After this comes another period of years which are followed by the the anointed one, the messiah, will be cut down.  There is only one messiah, and that is Christ. 

We now have a chiastic structure which follows ABAB.  A are lines which speak to the messiah and B to the Roman commander who will destroy the city and temple the second time.  Thus we have a messiah who will die after the sixty two week period of years, and he will both confirm the covenant with many and also bring to an end the daily sacrifices and offering.  In opposition to the salvation work of the messiah is the destructive work of the command who comes in order to wipe away the city and the holy.  Battle will ensue, and its end will be in a flood of destruction.  Very clearly desolation will be its end.  Further, from the beginning of this destruction until the final annihilating over-running of Jerusalem and the temple, there will be poured out upon the people a pre-determined desolation.  (See the warnings given to the children of Israel in Deuteronomy if they continued in rebellion against God). 

It is obvious from the context that this would occur after the 70 weeks or 490 years.  The prophesy speaks to Christ's work of salvation, and the work of the commander in order to destroy Jerusalem and its temple.  Jerusalem and the temple were not annihilated by Antiochus Epiphanes.  And this does not speak to a time of the end.  Rather, this prophesy had a specific purpose: that was to warn Israel what would be the consequences if they persisted in their rebellion.  It had both hope because the Messiah would come and would re-affirm the covenant and would bring a better system of salvation.  But if they refused to listen, then an abomination of desolation would occur.  

If one reads the history of the Jewish wars from 66 to70 AD and from 132 - 135 AD, it is clear that Rome pursued a scorched earth policy in regard to the Jewish rebellion.  They basically desolated the countryside in order to weaken the resolve of the Jews.  Both in Galilee and Judea, it was the goal of the Romans to desolate the countryside.  Christ warns his disciples that when they see the armies of Rome, the abomination which desolates, that they were to flee Jerusalem.  In 66 AD Cestus came down to Jerusalem and fought his way to the temple, then, for a reason unknown, when he was about to achieve his victory, he turned tail and retreated back to Caesaria Phillipi.  The retreat was costly, but it emptied the city of all warring parties as they sought to overcome the retreating Romans.  This left the Christians a short time to flee, and they did. 

Be careful how you use this prophesy and understand it.  This prophesy was for the Jews, a warning.  But they did not take the warning.  Instead, they persisted in their rebellion. They killed their king and their messiah and their savior, and they brought down the destructive force of Rome upon them as a result.  God had sought to warn them with Daniel 9 whither their rebellion was taking them.  But they refused to listen.

This is also a warning for us who live in the last days.  A time of tribulation is coming when all of earth, both God's people and the rebellious, will face an unimagineable period of horror and destruction.  That is the period of the seven trumpets.  (The seven trumpets are still future.)  Satan will have complete access to those who continue in their rebellion, and he will make their life miserable.  In turn they will turn against the people of God in order to destroy them.  There is no secret rapture, and many who believe in one, will be caught with their pants down.  And during this time, Satan will appear as Christ, and many, especially those who believe in a secret rapture, will be fooled by him.  And they will be drawn down into destruction.   

[Samie]

 

“Seventy weeks are determined concerning your people and concerning your holy city in order to finish the rebellion and in order to get rid of the sins and in order to reconcile guilt and in order to bring in eternal justice and in order to confirm the vision and prophecy and in order to anoint a holy of holies.

Now know and understand from a decree of a word in order to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until an anointed prince seven weeks and sixty and two weeks. A and the moat will return and be rebuilt, but in an oppression of time.

And after sixty and two weeks an anointed one will be cut down and there will be nothing for him. And a people of the commander who comes will wipe away the city and the holy, and its end in a flood, and, until battle's end, desolations are determined.

And he will confirm a covenant for the many one week, and a half of the week, he will put an end to sacrifices and offerings. And from a beginning of abominations which desolate and until annihilation also that which is determined will be poured out upon that which is desolated.”, Daniel 9.24 – 27.

 

Observe very closely that Daniel is told that the Jewish people will return from exile and will rebuild the city with moat and plaza.  The rebuilding of the city will take approximately seven weeks.  This clearly indicates that this time period must be prophetic because no city would be built in seven literal weeks.  Instead forty nine years makes more sense. ..

I would like to know how you came to the observation I highlighted in red above. Thanks.