Little horn of Dan 8

[hch]

By 1798 that level of persecution of the saints by the RCC had fully ended.

Daniel 7 makes it clear that this defines that period of time where the RCC little horn was in power and dominated the Christian world - persecuting the saints and sometimes that was in the form of torture and death at the hands of the RCC.

Few people would argue that this is still going on today.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

I fully agree that the end time persecution will be great and that the 1260 years of the dark ages while being the longest - will be eclipsed in some ways by the final persecution -- probably more saints die in the one coming up than all during the dark ages.

I think this fits the model you are using well. But at the same time there is that 1260 year timeline - much longer than anything coming up for us - and the dark day and the moon turning to blood etc -- all of which happened after the 1260 years ended.

So while we get a shortened and condensed and possibly magnified version of that in the future - ending with the 7 last plagues and second coming - we still have to hold to the historical fulfillment of what has already taken place in my opinion.

in Christ,

Bob

[hch]

This post is DEEP it is not intended for everybody.

...

The Adventist Review has 2/3rds of the details in this study as does the Pacific Press and the SDA Theological Society (that was the final draft available when I sent it to them). The manuscript was written in a fast moving simple style for laymen to understand. If they read it in sequence, it will make sense; but not if they read it out of sequence. Pray that they do not sit on it for too long.

[hch]

I fully agree that the end time persecution will be great and that the 1260 years of the dark ages while being the longest - will be eclipsed in some ways by the final persecution -- probably more saints die in the one coming up than all during the dark ages.

I think this fits the model you are using well. But at the same time there is that 1260 year timeline - much longer than anything coming up for us - and the dark day and the moon turning to blood etc -- all of which happened after the 1260 years ended.

So while we get a shortened and condensed and possibly magnified version of that in the future - ending with the 7 last plagues and second coming - we still have to hold to the historical fulfillment of what has already taken place in my opinion.

in Christ,

Bob

[Samie]

...

God will take charge of the work and the final movements will be rapid ones. But woe unto the unfaithful servant.

Again, questions to ponder on:

1. Did Christ explain that the setting up of the abomination of desolation will trigger the occurrence of the great tribulation?

2. If yes, then did He also say that the great tribulation will be shortened or no FLESH will remain alive?

3. If yes, did He likewise say the reason for its shortening is because of the elect to remain alive?

4. If yes, did He say that IMMEDIATELY after the great tribulation, unusual celestial phenomena will occur which will be capped by His 2nd Coming?

5. If yes, then at His Coming, are there elect alive at the start of the great tribulation who remained alive until the coming of the Lord?

So then, the final events will really be rapid ones starting from the setting up of the abomination of desolation.

Note that shortening of the occurrence of the great tribulation is to ensure that there are among the elect of God who will remain alive until He comes again. This tells us CLEARLY that the period of occurrence of the great tribulation falls within a human lifespan.

[JoeMo]

However this future plays out, it ends with God's people being delivered, taken into the Kingdom, and given eternal life. This is good news!

I just read through a lot of posts; and someone said they think the prophecies of Daniel apply to past, present, and future. I agree with that. It's also been stated that, while there are past applications on the prophecies in Daniel and Revelation, the actual full-fill-ment of most of these prophecies is future. I agree with that as well.

Also, I'm bowing out of this thread now. As interesting as it is, it's starting to get a little technical and complicated for me. I don't accept anything on here as absolute truth (apart from God's word) - not even the stuff I've posted. I view them all as alternatives to be considered. We'll see how it all pans out when it pans out. I think that we all can agree that, regardless of the path that God ultimately leads us on, the story has a very happy ending - that being living with Jesus in His Kingdom forever.

[Samie]

I fully agree that the end time persecution will be great and that the 1260 years of the dark ages while being the longest - will be eclipsed in some ways by the final persecution -- probably more saints die in the one coming up than all during the dark ages.

I think this fits the model you are using well. But at the same time there is that 1260 year timeline - much longer than anything coming up for us - and the dark day and the moon turning to blood etc -- all of which happened after the 1260 years ended.

So while we get a shortened and condensed and possibly magnified version of that in the future - ending with the 7 last plagues and second coming - we still have to hold to the historical fulfillment of what has already taken place in my opinion.

[BobRyan]

Our Master teacher described the great tribulation as having NO equal in magnitude before and after its occurrence:

Matthew 24:21

...

KJV For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

...

NKJ "For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.

1. Doesn't our Lord's description seem to indicate a UNIQUE great tribulation?

2. If it already has occurred, then what abomination of desolation was set up when it started?

[Samie]

1. Our Savior EXPLICITLY said the great tribulation will be shortened.

2. Reason: For the people of God to remain alive

3. Remain alive till when? Until His Coming

4. How so? Because IMMEDIATELY after the shortened great tribulation UNUSUAL celestial phenomena will occur which will be capped by His Coming.

5. What UNUSUAL phenomena: the solar eclipse by day, followed by lunar eclipse at night.

6. Why is that UNUSUAL?: because a solar eclipse only occurs at new moon and lunar eclipse only occurs during a full moon. Having both solar and lunar eclipses on the same day makes the phenomena unusual.

7. Does the Bible say it will occur on the same day? Yes:

Quote:

KJV Isaiah 13:

9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.

10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.

Joel 3:

14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision.

15 The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining.

Zephaniah 1:

14 The great day of the LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the LORD: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly.

15 That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness,

From the testimony of Scriptures, among the people of God alive at the the setting up of the AoD that triggers the great tribulation shortened for their sake, many of them will remain alive until the 2nd Coming. For these people of God remaining alive from the start till end of the great tribulation tells us plainly: the great tribulation is well within a human life span.

1260 years? Scriptures don't seem to agree.

[JoeMo]

http://www.wnd.com/2014/06/is-prophecy-being-fulfilled-now-in-iraq-and-iran/

[8thdaypriest]

Daniel cpt 8, describes a ram pushing north, south, and west (but not East towards China).

Two horns on this ram. The "higher horn" came up last.

Watching the progress of the Sunni Muslims makes me wonder if we are watching the "higher horn" that comes up "last".

The Shia Muslims would be the first horn.

The "notable horn" on the goat comes from "the West" with great speed OVER the face of the earth (air power), and is "furious" with the ram. He hits the ram and throws it to the ground and breaks BOTH of it's horns.

Shortly AFTER that war, the "notable horn" on the goat is "broken without hand" (meaning not in a battle).

A financial collapse maybe?? I mean - who is the business end of THAT Western coalition? The US!

Most interesting that all of this is happening while 4 blood moons ON appointed time Feast days are taking place.

I think the lion with eagles wings could represent Israel. The tribal symbol for Judah was a lion.

The eagles wings would the United States support. And the eagles wings are ripped off. Most interesting!

Once the notable horn is "broken without hand", 4 horns (almost simultaneously) come up in it's place.

Out of one of those 4, comes a "little horn" who speaks blasphemies.

Rachel Cory

Prophecy Viewpoint

[JoeMo]

Quote:

Watching the progress of the Sunni Muslims makes me wonder if we are watching the "higher horn" that comes up "last"... The "notable horn" on the goat comes from "the West" with great speed OVER the face of the earth (air power)The Shia Muslims would be the first horn.

Quote:

Most interesting that all of this is happening while 4 blood moons ON appointed time Feast days are taking place.

Thank you Rachel! It's nice to know I'm not the only one who finds this viewpoint to be a very practical fulfillment of the prophecy of Daniel 8.

I guess that's why your website is called "Prophecy Viewpoint, huh?

BTW, I love the studies you have on there.

When God talks about signs and wonders in the heavens; the sun turning black and the moon turning to blood, I don't think He's talking about eclipses that are predicted by astronomy - I think He's talking about signs that astronomy could have never predicted - events that could only be supernatural. Of course, these signs in the sky immediately precede the 2nd coming. The four blood moons (as well as 2 solar eclipses) that happen during the Jewish Festival seasons are signs of things to come...

[Aliensanctuary]

The murderous acts of these bloodthirsty Islamists do indeed resemble the description of the 4th Beast, destroying everything and everyone within reach, including the great cities of the world. If they ever get their hands on nuclear weapons, goodbye Babylon.

[JoeMo]

The Declaration of a worldwide Caliphate by ISIS should be a watched. Talk about a fatal wound that was healed - the Ottoman Empire (a Caliphate)of old began falling apart in the late 18th century; and was officially dissolved in 1918. Now ISIS is resurrecting it. And where is this happening? In modern-day Medo-Persia - the home of the 2-horned ram. The reestablishment of a Caliphate was also the dream on Osama Bin-Laden. I worry about a world-wide Friday (Muslim Sabbath) Law more than I worry about a worldwide Sunday Law.

[8thdaypriest]

The two horned ram is thrown to the ground, stomped on and both horns broken - BY - the goat from the WEST.

The goat from the WEST is furious!! Wonder what terror attack will precipitate the goat striking back.

So I don't think the Caliphate will rule the world.

THEN the notable horn becomes "great".

THEN the notable horn is broken (without hand).

THEN four come up in its place.

THEN - out of one of the four - comes a "little horn".

Personally - I believe the vision of Daniel 8 is giving us the wider view (what leads in) of Daniel 7.

Daniel 8 has FOUR HORNS. Out of one comes a little horn.

Daniel 7 has FOUR BEASTS. Out of one comes a little horn.

The terrible BEAST of Revelation 13, with the 7 heads and ten horns IS the fourth beast of Daniel 7, and is one of the four horns of Daniel 8.

Most history students KNOW that Alexander the Great's empire did NOT split into four parts. It split into 6 parts, which then became 5, then became 4 (for a very short time), and finally became 3.

Blessings,

Rachel Cory

Prophecy Viewpoint

[Bert]

Daniel cpt 8, describes a ram pushing north, south, and west (but not East towards China).

Two horns on this ram. The "higher horn" came up last.

Watching the progress of the Sunni Muslims makes me wonder if we are watching the "higher horn" that comes up "last".

The Shia Muslims would be the first horn.

The Bible provides an explanation of the ram/goat prophecy in Daniel 8. The vision of Daniel is given by him in the leading verses of

Daniel 8, and starting in verses 16 and 17 Gabriel proceeded to give Daniel 'understanding' of the ram/goat prophecy. Verse 20 provides us the identity of the ram with two horns as representing the kings of Media and Persia. In verse 21, the rough goat is defined as the king of Grecia, and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king (mostly accepted as being Alexander, the Great). Next, you go back to Daniel's account of the vision concerning the goat in verses 5-7 and what it did. The description of the speed of its movements in verse 5 are indicative of the rapid movement of Alexander's armies from one battle area to another, and is a matter of secular history. Then, in verse 6, the ram (Grecia) runs into the ram (Media-Persia) and overpowered the ram, which represents the demise of the Media-Persian empire. This prophecy parallels the demise of the second beast of Daniel 7:5 and the breast and arms of silver depicted by the great image of Nebuchadnezzar's dream. The goat parallels the third beast of Daniel 7:6 and the thighs of brass on the 'great image' of Daniel 2:39 and is the third kingdom represented.

Next is the meaning of Daniel 8:8 pertaining to the 'he goat'. As explained above, the 'notable horn between his eyes' (verses 5, 21 and 22) is considered to be representative of Alexander, the Great, their first king. In recorded history, Alexander, the Great, died at a young age, and his 'kingdom' was then divided between four of his generals represented as 'four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven'. These four generals established separate nations, or kingdoms (verse 22), of which one of them was Egypt. Their identities can be found in any encyclopedia. The Seleucid Empire was the main one to retain power, but was quite often at odds with Ptolemaic Dynasty, with Egypt being the source of the turmoil.

Next is the interpretation of the 'little horn' of verse 9, which goes in many different directions, representative of the Roman Empire and its many conquests, one of them being the 'pleasant land' (sometimes described as Israel). In verse 23, it tells us that 'in the latter time of their kingdom' (Refer to verse 22 for their identity), a 'king of fierce countenance shall stand up'...the Roman Empire. Verses 10 through 13 pertain to the persecutions and cruelty imposed by the Roman Empire, by both pagan and papal Rome, on its subjects over a period of years, including the crucifixion of Christ, and in later years persecution by the Papacy. Also, verses 23 through 25 further explains Daniel's account as to the activities of the 'little horn'.

It should be noted that in verse 26 Daniel was told that the vision would be 'for many days (years?)', which aligns the prophecy with secular history, for this vision was given to Daniel some 300 years or so prior to the assumption of the status of a world power by Rome.

Time does not permit for comments on the remainder of your post, so will attempt to work on it tomorrow.

God bless,

Bert

[hch]

The Bible provides an explanation of the ram/goat prophecy in Daniel 8. The vision of Daniel is given by him in the leading verses of

Daniel 8, and starting in verses 16 and 17 Gabriel proceeded to give Daniel 'understanding' of the ram/goat prophecy. Verse 20 provides us the identity of the ram with two horns as representing the kings of Media and Persia.

[8thdaypriest]

The little horn will subdue three kings.

The three kings will be the THREE that were already highlighted in the text - the lion, the bear, the leopard.

Later - in Rev. 13, when we see the beast fully developed, it has incorporated characteristics of the three first beasts - BECAUSE it subdued them.

[Samie]

The little horn of Daniel 7 & 8 = the king of fierce countenance in Dan 8:23 = the vile person king of Dan 11:21 = the man of sin & son of perdition in 2 Thes 2:3 = the beast of Rev 13:1.

When will he appear in the scene of this earth's history? The apostle Paul says after his time and sometime BEFORE the 2nd Coming. see 2 Thes 2:1-4. This jibes well with Dan 12:1,2 which paints a scene of the 2nd Coming occurring just after the exploits of the vile person king depicted in Dan 11:21 to 45.

[8thdaypriest]

I'm just going to share a few thoughts. Will try not to make it too long. Maybe split it up.

The fully developed Beast of Rev. 13 has only ONE HEAD - the 8th (which was of the 7).

I think the 8th HEAD is the one (of the 7) which was wounded by the sword (maybe of truth? maybe in war?) and revived.

Could be the Third Reich?

People the world over are astonished, when this "head" revives, because they thought it was dead and gone.

The HARLOT rides the Beast - only finally in the last days.

She is carried along by the Beast.

She enjoys big economic benefits from the Beast.

She sits on 7 hills or mountains.

These could be the 7 hills of Jerusalem,

or the 7 hills of Rome,

or 7 Kingdoms (Mts do represent kingdoms)

The LAMB LIKE BEAST

1.exercises ALL the authority of the first beast in his presence - he has been appointed a proxy - a prophet for Beast, and enforcer for the Beast.

2.uses sorcery to deceive the nations-makes fire come down from heaven

3.speaks like the dragon - speaks words of the DRAGON

4.causes ALL to worship (serve) the first beast (Co-operate with the Beast system.)

5.Tells the world to "make an image to" the first beast

6.Causes ALL to receive a mark (THIS IS THE IMAGE TO THE BEAST! This marking system.)

LAMB - non aggressive, for peace, maybe the UN, or the Pope,

or a subdued United States.

666:

six numbers - six numbers - six numbers

"the number of a man"

an individual identification code for buying and selling and medical records, etc. etc. etc.

[8thdaypriest]

THE LITTLE HORN on the 8th head of the Beast:

The "little horn" will subdue 3 horns when he comes up.

The only three presented in Daniel 7 are the lion, bear, and leopard

They are absorbed into the fully developed BEAST of Rev. 13.

Notable horn on the goat of Daniel 8 (Western coalition) is broken without hand (not in war-maybe economically)

THEN 4 come up. Lion/Bear/Leopard/TBeast

THEN little horn comes up out of the Terrible Beast-and subdues the first 3.

LAMBLIKE BEAST:

The little horn on the "first Beast" is NOT the Lamblike beast.

The lamblike beast is a completely separate Kingdom or entity,

which serves as spokesman (prophet) and enforcer for the "first beast".

The lamblike Beast causes all to take the mark.

Never forget that the Third Reich DID cause some people to take a mark.

The Vatican colluded with Hitler.

It could be that the Vatican will bail the US out of our horrible debt, in return for the US co-operation with the new system.

THE WHORE:

A subdued Jerusalem or the Papacy. Both are called Babylon.

Of course - the Pope may MOVE TO Jerusalem.

He does plant the tents of his palace at the Holy Mountain.

The Holy City IS "given to the Nations" for 42 months, just BEFORE the two witnesses are called up to heaven.

For many years now, the Pope has been calling for Jerusalem to be internationalized.

The WHORE is destroyed by the 10 kings of the Beast power,

just BEFORE the Beast and False Prophet are given to the "lake of fire".

The Beast and the false prophet are thrown into the "lake of fire" when Christ returns.

The BEAST with ALL of his 8 heads is thrown into "the lake of fire", along with the lamb-like Beast (false prophet).

And the WHORE is burned.

All of it - the whole rotten system - these represent the wicked who will be raised to judgment and execution at the Second Coming.

We only see hints and shadows of what may be.

The Book of Daniel will not be "open" until "the time of the end" - which was not back in 1844.

Blessings,

Rachel Cory

Prophecy Viewpoint

[Samie]

Rev 13 speaks of two different beasts in v1 and v11. The little horn is the beast in v1. The beast in v11 is the false prophet working for the beast.

[8thdaypriest]

The male goat in Daniel cpt 8 "came from the west, across the surface of the whole earth, without touching the ground."

Alexander slogged east for 7 years. That doesn't sound like lightning speed to me. And he certainly touched the ground.

Now air power on the other hand - that would not "touch the ground".

Alexander the Gr. defeated Persia in 333 BC - not exactly "the time of the end".

Gabriel said to Daniel, "Understand son of man, that the vision refers to the time of the end." (8:17)

"I am making known to you what shall happen in the latter time of the indignation; for at the appointed time the end shall be."

And Alexander's empire did NOT split neatly into four.

There are some problems with traditional SDA interpretation of Daniel 8.

Blessings,

Rachel Cory

Prophecy Viewpoint

[JoeMo]

Quote:

There are some problems with traditional SDA interpretation of Daniel 8.

Amen to that.

[8thdaypriest]

In Revelation 13:3, the Beast (with the 7 heads and 10 horns) receives a "deadly wound".

But then his deadly wound is healed.

And all the world wonders.

THEN he is given authority to continue for 42 months.

The BEAST makes "war with the saints, and has authority over EVERY tribe, tongue and nation - AFTER his wound is healed.

The 42 months comes AFTER the deadly wound is healed - NOT before.

Go to Revelation Cpt 11:

The two witnesses prophesy for 1260 days.

And "WHEN they finish their testimony (presumably at the end of the 1260 days)

the Beast then makes war on them and finally kills them.

Anybody see two 3.5 year periods here??

First half of the "week" the two witnesses prophesy. They cannot be killed. They predict plagues.

Second half of the "week" "the saints shall be given into his hand for a time, times and half a time" (Dan. 7:25).

Personally, I like Smyrna and Philadelphia for the "two witnesses". Those are the only two lamps left burning after 5 are removed because they do not repent. Martyrs and those with "brotherly love".

They have the Moses message - "Remember the Law of Yahweh", and the Elijah message - "Choose ye this day whom you will serve".

Moses - water to blood

Elijah - no rain in the days of the prophesy (for 3.5 years)

Blessings,

Rachel Cory

Prophecy Viewpoint