Little horn of Dan 8

[8thdaypriest]

Samie,

What about the 8th millennium? - for these nations to continue their lives, (though without dominion)?

These could be "the rest of the dead" who are raised AFTER 1000 years.

Most people in these ancient nations did NOT KNOW of Yahweh.

Jesus said "If you were blind you would have no sin." These are people who lived in ignorance, therefore their sin is covered. I believe they will be raised to continue their lives, learn of Christ, then choose whom they will serve. The redeemed will serve as priests to govern and teach.

The "woman" who rides the terrible beast (with the 7+1 horns) is called Babylon.

She burns at the Second Coming (Rev. 19).

"HER PLAGUES come in one day" - the day Christ returns.

The horns on the Beast actually turn on her and burn her with fire.

I think they do this after seeing Christ return, and then leave with His own.

They are left behind, and turn on the one who deceived them.

The little horn on the Beast, persecutes the saints for 3.5 years leading up to the the Second Coming.

It sounds like the Terrible Beast, little horn+4, and the "Harlot" (riding the Beast) all go down at the SAME time - at the Second Coming.

Blessings,

Rachel Cory

Prophecy Viewpoint

[8thdaypriest]

One plus 7 evil spirits:

NKJ Matthew 12:43 "When an unclean spirit goes out of a man, he goes through dry places, seeking rest, and finds none. 44 "Then he says,`I will return to my house from which I came.' And when he comes, he finds it empty, swept, and put in order. 45 "Then he goes and takes with him seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter and dwell there; and the last state of that man is worse than the first. So shall it also be with this wicked generation." (Mat 12:43 NKJ)[color:#FF0000]

We're looking for the "little horn".

The "generation" who see "the house" (Temple) swept clean and restored, will also see the Son of Perdition move in with 7 others. (Seven heads maybe?) (Or 10 Horns minus 3 pulled up?)

Just a thought.

[Samie]

Originally Posted By: Samie

The issue is whether there is a gap between the expiry of the 3rd beast and the rise of the little horn. I already acknowledged there is NO gap between the 3rd and the 4th beasts. You yourself acknowledged that the 10 horns arise later. That's already a gap. So how could there be no gap when the little horn arises later than the 10 horns?

Do you know what the clay represents in the Bible? All the material in Daniel 2 represents something so the clay must as well. This does have to do with Daniel 7 & 8

Gold = Babylon

Silver = Medo Peria

Brass = Greece

Iron = Rome

Clay = ?

Stone = God's kingdom

[12tribes]

There WILL be another Temple.

Ezekiel 37:15-27 The LORD will gather the children of Israel. Judah and Israel will be joined into one kingdom - never to be separated again, with one King - from the line of David (v.24). The Lord will then make an everlasting covenant of peace with those He has gathered (v.26). “My tabernacle also shall be with them; . . . The nations also will know that I, the LORD, sanctify Israel, WHEN My sanctuary is in their midst forevermore.”

Ezekiel’s Temple is built AFTER the resurrection and return of the “whole house of Israel” to the land. That would put it AFTER the Second Coming. But there are prophecies pointing to a Temple on the holy Mount at Jerusalem BEFORE the glorious return of Christ.

BEFORE the Second Coming, I believe that a counterfeit Temple WILL be built. The LORD will NOT build this house, so they will labor in vain, but it will serve as the platform for Satan Himself.

2Thessalonians 2:3-4 “Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that HE SITS AS GOD IN THE TEMPLE OF GOD, showing himself that he is God.”

The only person who was allowed to sit in the Temple courtyard was the anointed King - from the line of David. This alone should tell you who the “son of perdition” is pretending to be. Yes - Yeshua Messiah - the anointed King of Israel. He will make fire come down from heaven (Rev. 13:13). This was the sign of the LORD’s presence for ancient Israel (Lev. 9:24, Num. 16:35, I Ki. 18:38, 2Chron 7:1). The “fire” consumed the sacrifice on the alter in the court of the Temple. This scenario requires a Temple, and the restoration of animal sacrifices.

He will demand worship - finally on pain of death.

The “false prophet” of Revelation 13:11-18, is a religious figure who will encourage all men to cooperate with the Beast system. This “false prophet” will prepare the way for the false “messiah,” just as John the Baptist prepared the way for Yeshua.

Those who believe that:

Messiah will reign on earth, during the approaching 7th millennium -

Messiah will rule the nations who survive the last plagues -

The faithful should offer animal sacrifices at a restored Temple at Jerusalem -

ARE BEING SET UP!

JEREMIAH - A TYPE OF THE LAST WITNESSES

Jeremiah was thrown into a pit to die, as punishment for his message to the king and priests - the ruling elite of Judah - just before the Babylonian destruction. He may be a type of the “two witnesses” who prophesy in the streets of Jerusalem just before the Glorious Return (Rev. 11:3-12). His message will be their message, and it will infuriate the rulers of Jerusalem who have just restored a Temple on Mt Zion. See Jer. 7:9-16, Josh.18:1, 1Sam. 4:10, & Psa. 78:60 regarding the destruction of the Tabernacle at Shiloh.

Jeremiah 26:6 [LORD speaking] "then I will make this house like Shiloh, and will make this city a curse to all the nations of the earth.”

Jeremiah 26:9 [Rulers of Jerusalem speaking to Jeremiah] “Why have you prophesied in the name of the LORD, saying, ‘This house shall be like Shiloh, and this city shall be desolate, without an inhabitant’?”

A CLEAN HOUSE - BUT WHO WILL MOVE IN?

Matthew 12:43 “When an unclean spirit goes out of a man, he goes through dry places, seeking rest, and finds none. Then he says, ‘I will return to my house from which I came.’ And when he comes, he finds it empty, swept, and put in order. Then he goes and takes with him seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter and dwell there; and the last state of that man is worse than the first. SO SHALL IT ALSO BE WITH THIS WICKED GENERATION."

The generation who see the House at Jerusalem, "swept clean" and “put in order,” will see the Son of Perdition “sit in the Temple of God, showing himself that he is God”.

Blessings

Rachel Cory

Prophecy Viewpoint (now up to 3700 visitors per month!)

1 Corinthians 3:16 KJV

(16) Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

According to this verse the temple in the NT is the church, not a literal temple in Jerusalem.

[12tribes]

Originally Posted By: 12tribes

Do you know what the clay represents in the Bible? All the material in Daniel 2 represents something so the clay must as well. This does have to do with Daniel 7 & 8

Gold = Babylon

Silver = Medo Peria

Brass = Greece

Iron = Rome

Clay = ?

Stone = God's kingdom

Frankly' date=' since Scriptures are silent on it, I don't know what clay represents.

All I am sure is that clay mixed with iron in the feet and toes of the image signifies that the kingdom for which the leg part stands is partly strong, partly weak, and divided as iron does not mix with clay. This the Bible explicitly says:

Quote:

KJV Daniel 2:

40 And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise.

41 And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay.

42 And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.

43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.[/quote']

Scripture is not silent on what clay represents. You mean to say you have not seen it.

Jeremiah 18:6 KJV

(6) O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel.

Who is Israel today?

Romans 2:28-29 KJV

(28) For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

(29) But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

[JoeMo]

Quote:

and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge in the image of its Creator. Here there is no Gentile or Jew, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave or free, but Christ is all, and is in all.

Therefore, as God’s chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience. (Col. 3:10-12)

Yet, I can't help but think the people and land of literal Israel have a major role to play in the end times. When Rev. 7 says:

Quote:

Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel.

From the tribe of Judah 12,000 were sealed,

from the tribe of Reuben 12,000,

from the tribe of Gad 12,000, (etc.)

The most straightforward interpretation is literal Israel.

Quote:

After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. (Rev. 7:9)

The most straightforward interpretation is that this is the rest of us.

[JoeMo]

I'm still looking for some explicit bible evidence that kingdoms (governments) typified by the beasts of Daniel 7 are the same as the ones on the statue in Daniel 2. It may be a "given" to you, but I can only make that distinction by inference colored by my SDA indoctrination. The verse that makes me suspicious is the one about the first 3 beasts/kings living after the 4th one is destroyed (Dan. 7:12). If it's not too much, can someone show me an explicit scriptural link that connects the two? My mind is open on this. Thanks.

[Samie]

12tribes;

Sorry, I thought you were asking for "clay" in Dan 2, having arranged in order gold, silver, brass, iron, clay and stone of Dan 2; didn't think you have in mind the "clay" in Jeremiah.

[JoeMo]

Another thing that makes me suspicious that the kingdoms represented in Dan. 2 are not the same as those in Daniel 7 is Daniel 8:

Quote:

In the third year of King Belshazzar’s reign, I, Daniel, had a vision, after the one that had already appeared to me.

This verse seems to link the vision of Daniel 8 to that of Daniel 7. In the angel's interpretation on the Dan. 8 vision, he specifically says 3 times that the vision is for the end times.

The dream of the statue and the interpretation thereof happened many years (a few decades, possibly?) prior to Daniel 7 and 8; and the prophet makes no explicit linkage to it. Also, it was a dream meant for King Nebbie; not a vision given to Daniel. Possibly 2 different purposes at work here.

[Samie]

Samie,

What about the 8th millennium? - for these nations to continue their lives, (though without dominion)?

These could be "the rest of the dead" who are raised AFTER 1000 years.

Most people in these ancient nations did NOT KNOW of Yahweh.

Jesus said "If you were blind you would have no sin." These are people who lived in ignorance, therefore their sin is covered. I believe they will be raised to continue their lives, learn of Christ, then choose whom they will serve. The redeemed will serve as priests to govern and teach.

...

The "rest of the dead" resurrected at the end of the 1000 years, are the same group slain in Rev 19:21 just before the start of the 1000 years.

In a nutshell:

Contingent upon the death of our Savior on the cross, names of Adam & Eve and all their descendants were all written in the book of life from the foundation of the world. Only names of overcomers will not be blotted out from that book. When Christ comes again to reward every man according to what each has done, all whose names remain in the book of life will be rewarded with life eternal and ushered to heaven for the marriage of the Lamb; all others will be rewarded with the wrath of God - the 7 last plagues, and fter the 1000 year-period, they will be thrown into the lake of fire.

[Samie]

Another thing that makes me suspicious that the kingdoms represented in Dan. 2 are not the same as those in Daniel 7 is Daniel 8:

Quote:

In the third year of King Belshazzar’s reign, I, Daniel, had a vision, after the one that had already appeared to me.

This verse seems to link the vision of Daniel 8 to that of Daniel 7. In the angel's interpretation on the Dan. 8 vision, he specifically says 3 times that the vision is for the end times.

The dream of the statue and the interpretation thereof happened many years (a few decades, possibly?) prior to Daniel 7 and 8; and the prophet makes no explicit linkage to it. Also, it was a dream meant for King Nebbie; not a vision given to Daniel. Possibly 2 different purposes at work here.

In this issue, I have the same line of thought as you have, JoeMo.

[8thdaypriest]

1 Corinthians 3:16 KJV

(16) Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

According to this verse the temple in the NT is the church, not a literal temple in Jerusalem.

[hch]

The little horn of Daniel 7 is Roman in origin because it comes out of the 4th beast (Rome). So the little horn of Daniel 8 is Roman in origin because Daniel 8 covers the same ground as Daniel 7 except with added info.

Daniel 8:8-9 KJV

(8) Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.

(9) And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.

This means the little horn comes out of one of the four winds.

Have you considered Daniel 12:4 and 9?

4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.

Rome was understood as the meaning of Daniel 7 before the book was opened and unsealed in 1798, 1844, and beyond.

Likewise the little horn of Daniel 8 relates to "the last end of indignation" and the last power to wage war against the church is... the USA" in conjunction with apostate Protestantism.

Do you suppose that Daniel saw the little horn arise from the winds (disembodied from the goat)? The goat is a he-goat she-goat. In the original languages the terms are masculine and feminine. After Daniel saw the entire vision, Gabriel came to explain the "vision" (what he had seen) to Daniel.

Maxwell did the best he could at the time, but he got it wrong and he can't change it now.

[JoeMo]

Quote:

The "rest of the dead" resurrected at the end of the 1000 years, are the same group slain in Rev 19:21 just before the start of the 1000 years.

Them and everyone else who ever lived.

Quote:

And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They[a] had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years (Rev. 20:4-6).

To me, this makes it perfectly clear that only the saved (and possibly a few select condemned) will take part in the 1st resurrection. The rest of the dead - everyone who ever lived - will not be resurrected until the end of the millennium.

Quote:

The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. (Rev. 20:12)

Since most of these people would have never even been exposed to the Gospel; and many deceived by self-serving denominations, they could be judged according to their deeds AFTER they have an opportunity to make an informed decision for or against Christ. This probably includes babies and people who were mentally incompetent in this life. Since satan is also unleashed at this time, he will also be able to influence people - just like today; so many will be destroyed in the second death.

[hch]

Daniel 8:20-21 KJV

(20) The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia.

(21) And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.

The first beast represents Medo Persia. The 2nd is Greece while the little horn which comes out of one of the four winds is Rome. The little horn in Daniel 7 is Papal Rome, while the little horn in Daniel 8 is Rome in both stages.

This evidence would nail it down, except the KJV translators supplemented Daniel's text. Daniel wrote:

(20) ram sawest having horns kings Media Persia.

The little verb ARE was added by the translators. in 8:4, Daniel saw the ram PUSHING in different directions.

Thus if Daniel's verb of choice was inserted it would read like:

(20) ram that thou sawest having horns, kings, pushed at Media and Persia.

And the same is true of v 21 where the translators chose to go with a verb other than suggested by Daniel:

(21) And the rough goat: the king pushed at Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.

More later

[hch]

Rome matches the criteria in Daniel perfectly.

You really think so?

“The light that Daniel received direct from God was given especially for these last days. The visions he saw by the banks of the Ulai and the Hiddekel, the great rivers of Shinar, are now in process of fulfillment, and ALL the events foretold will soon have come to pass.” (4BC 1166.5)

[Samie]

The first resurrection, at the time of the second coming, is that of the righteous. The resurrection of the wicked comes right next, also at the time of the second coming. This is why Christ had said that when He returns He will reward each one according to what each has done. The fact that each one gets rewarded when He comes again necessitates that every one needs to be present to receive his own reward.

This is why Rev 1:7 says every eye will see Him come in the clouds, including those who pierced Him. Those wicked Roman soldiers who pierced Him at His side on the cross were long dead; the fact that they will see the coming of the Lord is proof enough the wicked will be resurrected at the 2nd coming, and NOT the righteous only.

Jesus said:

Quote:

KJV John 5:

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

HOUR, Greek "hora", singular.

In that hour, all in the graves will hear His voice. Not just the righteous because the wicked are also in their graves. And all who hear will come forth, both righteous and wicked: the righteous rise first - this is the first resurrection; the wicked comes right next.

[hch]

Quote:

the setting up of the abomination of desolation will find fulfillment shortly before the 2nd Coming.

Just an addendum.

"Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God."2 Thess 2:1-4 NKJV

Has anyone on CA come to a conclusion re: the identification of the underlined?

God cares! Jesus saves!

“Satan is uniting his forces for perdition.” (6T 241.5)

“The power represented as ‘the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit.’ In many of the nations of Europe the powers that ruled in Church and State had for centuries been controlled by Satan, through the medium of the papacy." (GC88 268.3)

[hch]

There WILL be another Temple.

“As Jesus died on Calvary, He cried, ‘It is finished’ [John 19:30], and the veil of the temple was rent in twain, from the top to the bottom… The services of the earthly sanctuary were forever finished, and that God would no more meet with the priests in their earthly temple, to accept their sacrifices. The blood of Jesus was then shed, which was to be offered by Himself in the heavenly sanctuary." (EW 253.1)

[Samie]

The little horn is responsible for the setting up of the abomination of desolation. Questions:

1. If the prophecy about the little horn had already found fulfillment in the past, then had the abomination of desolation been set up?

2. If the abomination of desolation had already been set up, when did the great tribulation occur?

3. If the great tribulation had already occurred, why has Jesus not come yet, when He explicitly said so?

Can anyone who believes the prophecy about the little horn and its exploits had already found fulfillment in the past, try to explain?

[BobRyan]

The little horn is responsible for the setting up of the abomination of desolation. Questions:

1. If the prophecy about the little horn had already found fulfillment in the past, then had the abomination of desolation been set up?

2. If the abomination of desolation had already been set up, when did the great tribulation occur?

[Samie]

Hi Bob;

A Sabbath. The Sabbath. We both know the difference.

A great tribulation. The great tribulation. Same case.

And our Savior meant a SINGLE & UNIQUE great tribulation when He described it in Matthew 24:21 as:

1. "such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be." (KJV)

2. "such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever shall." (NASB)

3. "unequaled from the beginning of the world until now-- and never to be equaled again." (NIV)

4. "such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be." (NKJ)

Has this already occurred or not?

[Samie]

Originally Posted By: Samie

3. If the great tribulation had already occurred, why has Jesus not come yet, when He explicitly said so?

Can anyone who believes the prophecy about the little horn and its exploits had already found fulfillment in the past, try to explain?

Some have said that more Christians died in the 1900's than in any 300 or 400 year prior prior.

How do you know we are not still in that mess?

We are not yet in that mess called the great tribulation because the abomination of desolation had not been set up yet. Our Master Teacher had explained that the great tribulation will be triggered by the setting up of the abomination of desolation.

Do you believe the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet had been set up?

[CoAspen]

Quote:

......the great tribulation will be triggered by the setting up of the abomination of desolation.

Has anyone ever backed off and taken a good look at what is being said? Dan Brown could not do better!

I really doubt that God had in mind a great hidden meanings in all of this or intended for people to have such obsession. In the end, of what value is all of this? Is this just an other way of 'end time' predictions, ie, the coming of God?

[JoeMo]

Personally, CoAspen, I take none of this discussion as personal; nor do I stake my salvation on it. I simply find eschatology to be a very interesting topic. It has fascinated me for 45 years. This particular thread has remained more open-minded and non-critical (in a personal way) than any on this subject in a long time. Everyone here appears to be involved in a free exchange of ideas.

You and I both know that our salvation is found solely on our faith in Jesus and what He has done for us.

IMO, unless we die premature deaths, we will experience the end times and the glorious return of Jesus. I don't want to blind myself to only a self-conceived or denominationally stipulated eschatology; I want to keep my mind open to all plausible scenarios. This is one Event I don't want to miss or be surprised by.

Sorry for the digression.