Little horn of Dan 8

[JoeMo]

hey hch, good to see you back!

I agree that popularity of a message is no indication of accuracy. I have been guilty of inaccurate Bible interpretation myself. I still claim the privilege of being wrong; and the right to change my mind given appropriate evidence.

Nonetheless, my past 5 years of study (inside and outside Adventism) have lead me to at least consider other alternatives to the SDA message. I have a real hard time swallowing 1844, the day-for-year principle applied to Daniel and Revelation, and the papacy as the one and only antitype for antichrist as solid evidence. Without rehashing what is is already posted, I still gatta go with what Samie has posted as coming closest to the way I currently view things.

But as world events unfold, that could change - I want to keep an open mind.

[CoAspen]

I just watched the 2 Dan Brown movies lately with Tom Hanks and currently reading

DB's INFERNO. It set me to thinking....SDA's have been into symbology for a long time!!

Could probably teach DB a thing or two about it all! We can debate it endlessly and never agree as to a conclusion which at the least DB's book do.......sorta!

Carry on folk's, but I gave up on this a long time ago.

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Samie,

The year-day principle is not supported by Scriptures. The two common verses used to support this, Num 14:34 & Ezek 4:6, SPECIFICALLY apply to what are said in those verses. As proof, all FULFILLED time prophecies in the Bible do not make use of this principle.

[JoeMo]

Quote:

We can debate it endlessly and never agree as to a conclusion

I agree CoAspen. For my part, I have always found eschatology fascinating; but for the most part (not all of it), it is speculative at best; not a salvational issue.

[12tribes]

The little horn of Daniel 7 is Roman in origin because it comes out of the 4th beast (Rome). So the little horn of Daniel 8 is Roman in origin because Daniel 8 covers the same ground as Daniel 7 except with added info.

Daniel 8:8-9 KJV

(8) Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.

(9) And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.

This means the little horn comes out of one of the four winds.

[JoeMo]

The little horn of Daniel 7 is Roman in origin because it comes out of the 4th beast (Rome).

[12tribes]

Daniel 2 has four kingdoms:-

1. Babylon

2. Medo Persia

3. Greece

4. Rome

Daniel 7 shows the same four, but with added info. Daniel 8 begins with Medo Persia ending with Rome. That is how to understand it. Not because of what EGW says, though she is a prophet.

[JoeMo]

Sorry, that;s not the way the angel explained it.

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

That stance will blind you to other plausible scenarios.

I have found when God speaks He doesn't speak in numerous plausible scenarios. The only individuals that will know that which is true, without variation, are those who are taught by the Holy Spirit.

"Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth..."John 16:13 KJV

"When people are saying, “Everything is peaceful and secure,” then disaster will fall on them as suddenly as a pregnant woman’s labor pains begin. And there will be no escape.

But you aren’t in the dark about these things, dear brothers and sisters, and you won’t be surprised when the day of the Lord comes like a thief. For you are all children of the light and of the day; we don’t belong to darkness and night."

1 Thessalonians 5:3-5 NLT

God cares! Jesus saves!

[12tribes]

Sorry, that;s not the way the angel explained it.

So you disagree with the fact that the Bible mentions four kingdoms in Daniel 2 & 7?

[Samie]

Greetings again Samie,

Originally Posted By: Samie

The year-day principle is not supported by Scriptures. The two common verses used to support this, Num 14:34 & Ezek 4:6, SPECIFICALLY apply to what are said in those verses. As proof, all FULFILLED time prophecies in the Bible do not make use of this principle.

I appreciate your response. Yes Numbers 14:34 and Ezekiel 4:6 are two principle references that are used in support of the day for a year principle. I take on board the rest of your post but still hold onto the day for a year principle in many prophetic time periods.

I would like to repeat a part of my previous post. What I am interested in is how do you understand Daniel 9:26. It is all very well to reject the day for a year principle, but if the prophecy of the 70 weeks fits like a glove, then this is also a basis to prove the day for a year principle.

This is the first time that I have heard anyone suggest that the 70-week prophecy is future. I do not know what you understand by the first part of v26, as this speaks to me concerning the crucifixion of Jesus.

Daniel 9:26 (KJV): And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

The second part speaks to me of the events of AD70.

Let me ask again, how do you understand the phrase after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off?. Is Messiah to be cut off again in the future? Or do you understand this phrase differently?

...

Hi Trevor;

Yes, the 70-week prophecy fits like a glove; it is the interpretation thereof that does not.

You believe first part of Dan 9:26 refers to the crucifixion of Jesus. Let's analyze Dan 9:25,26 based on the year-day principle.

1. Taken together, vv25 & 26 say that after 69 weeks shall Messiah be cut off, that is, 69 weeks from the "going forth of the commandment to restore and build Jerusalem". 69 weeks is 483 days which you believe is 483 years. Hence, 483 years from Christ's crucifixion in 31 AD will bring us back to 483 - 31 = 452 BC. Or, if you believe in an impossible 30 AD crucifixion, we will get back to 483 - 30 = 453 BC. There is NO historical evidence relative to a commandment or decree issued in either 452 BC or 453 BC to "restore and build Jerusalem". The nearest date of an issued decree was in 457 BC, but that Achaemenid decree was not for restoration of Jerusalem; it was for the BEAUTIFICATION of the temple in Jerusalem (Ezra 7:27).

2. The English word "Messiah" in the KJV is from the Hebrew word "mashiyach" which occurs more than a dozen times in the Old Testament (e.g. Lev 4:3; 1 Sam 16;6; 24:6, 10; 26:9,11,16,23; 2 Sam 1:14, 16, 21; 19:22; 23:1; Ps 18:50; Lam 4:20; Isa 45:1; Dan 9:25, 26). It is only in Daniel where "mashiyach" was translated into "Messiah" in the KJV. In all the other occurrences, it was translated into "anointed". Priests were also called "mashiyach" (Lev 4:3,5,16); David called Saul as the Lord's anointed or "mashiyach" (1 Sam 24:9,10); Even Cyrus, the Persian king, was called by God Himself as His "anointed". Had the translators translated "mashiyach" in Isa 45:1 into "Messiah" as what they did with it in Dan 9:26 then Cyrus was also the Lord's "Messiah". It follows that the term "Messiah" in Dan 9, does not necessarily refer to our Lord & Savior Jesus Christ.

Therefore, your perceived fulfillment of the 70-week prophecy and the year-day principle are both biblically untenable.

Instead, since the 70-week prophecy is directly related with the "taking away of the daily" and the setting up of the abomination of desolation, it will yet find fulfillment shortly before the 2nd Coming as specified by our Lord Himself (Matt 24:15-31).

[JoeMo]

No; the fact that there are four kingdoms is indisputable. Since this thread is about Daniel 8, I assume the 4 Kingdoms you are referring to are referring to the 4 horns that replaced the horn that was broken in Daniel 8:8; and not the kingdoms represented by the statue in King Nebbie's dream:

Quote:

The goat became very great, but at the height of its power the large horn was broken off, and in its place four prominent horns grew up toward the four winds of heaven

.

I do not think that the 4 horns that grew after the prominent horn was broken are Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, and Rome. I think they are kingdoms (or governments) yet to come. After all, the vision was for the end times.

Please don't respond that the end times started 400 years before the birth of Christ. That's really a stretch.

[JoeMo]

Quote:

It is only in Daniel where "mashiyach" was translated into "Messiah" in the KJV. In all the other occurrences, it was translated into "anointed". Priests were also called "mashiyach" (Lev 4:3,5,16); David called Saul as the Lord's anointed or "mashiyach" (1 Sam 24:9,10); Even Cyrus, the Persian king, was called by God Himself as His "anointed". Had the translators translated "mashiyach" in Isa 45:1 into "Messiah" as what they did with it in Dan 9:26 then Cyrus was also the Lord's "Messiah". It follows that the term "Messiah" in Dan 9, does not necessarily refer to our Lord & Savior Jesus Christ.

This is a crucial point in interpreting Daniel 9. In the KJV and NIV, "Messiah" and "Annointed One" are capitlaized per the transators' preference. Several other transation do not capitalize the terms, nor do they precede them with definite articles, for example, both the ESV and the RSV refer to this individual as "an anointed one". As Samie points out, it is not necessarily Jesus to whom Gabriel was referring; it could be a being from the opposite end of the holiness spectrum.

[12tribes]

Daniel 8:20-21 KJV

(20) The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia.

(21) And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.

The first beast represents Medo Persia. The 2nd is Greece while the little horn which comes out of one of the four winds is Rome. The little horn in Daniel 7 is Papal Rome, while the little horn in Daniel 8 is Rome in both stages.

Daniel 8:10-11 KJV

(10) And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.

(11) Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.

Notice that verse 10 refers to the little horn as it while verse 11 refers to the little horn as he showing a change.

[Guest sweng]

Rome matches the criteria in Daniel perfectly.

http://www.remnantofgod.org/littlehorn.htm

http://1844madesimple.org/why-antiochus-iv-is-not-the-little-horn-of-daniel-8

[Samie]

Daniel 8:20-21 KJV

(20) The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia.

(21) And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.

The first beast represents Medo Persia. The 2nd is Greece while the little horn which comes out of one of the four winds is Rome. The little horn in Daniel 7 is Papal Rome, while the little horn in Daniel 8 is Rome in both stages.

Daniel 8:10-11 KJV

(10) And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.

(11) Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.

Notice that verse 10 refers to the little horn as it while verse 11 refers to the little horn as he showing a change.

[JoeMo]

Quote:

The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia

Could these be the kings of modern Media and Persia (i.e., Iraq and Iran)?

Quote:

And the rough goat is the king of Grecia:

The word "Grecia" here can also be transated as "westerner". Could this be a western kingdom (government) like the EU or USA and some alliance of the two?

Quote:

The little horn in Daniel 7 is Papal Rome, while the little horn in Daniel 8 is Rome in both stages.

I can't infer this as "absolute truth" from scripture. It could be Rome; but there are many other alternatives. The angel is looking at this as a distant end-time scenario. We should view it the same way. The events described take place at the time of the end, according to the angel.

[Kevin H]

I'm tired so I'll try to be quick. Had Hezekiah shown the emissaries from Babylon his true riches, his God, instead of his stuff, the Hezekiah Reformation could have gone to the whole world and the Messiah could come and set up his kingdom.

Since he showed his stuff instead of the Messiah ruling, it was Babylon. Then Medio Persia, Greece, Rome, The Holy Roman Empire (including Papal Supremacy), the deadly wound (independent nations) then the deadly wound being healed through economic cooperation as we are seeing with the superrich who we see involved with the Trilateral Commission, council of Foreign Relations, and the Federal Reserve.

[Aliensanctuary]

That Rome is the 4th Beast of the Last Days is only conjecture. Perhaps it will have a part to play in the destruction of human civilization, perhaps not.

Dan 7:2

Quote:

In my vision that night, I, Daniel, saw a great storm churning the surface of a great sea, with strong winds blowing from every direction.

Then four huge beasts came up out of the water, each different from the others.

Unless we've been brainwashed into thinking that the relatively sparsely populated region around the Mediterranean Sea of several thousand years ago, which encompasses roughly Babylon, Persia, and Greece, is represented by a great churning sea whipped into crashing waves by hurricane-like winds, we should look elsewhere.

Only after the resurrection will there be such a huge surging mass of people, all brought back to life by the Spirit of YHVH. Only four kingdoms will be permitted to rule these billions and billions of people. The rulers of these kingdoms have already been chosen. Nebuchadnezzar is the first, as indicated by his dream, and as the head of gold of the Statue of the Four Last Days Kingdoms depicts.

This is the time of testing for all, save the 144K. It is their opportunity to make an informed choice on whether they wish to be servants of YHVH or servants of Satan. Unfortunately, far too many will be deceived by Satan and his representatives, thinking he would make the better master and his kingdom of pleasure more desirable.

Because the Fourth Beast of the Last Days is hell-bent on destroying human civilization, it is extremely unlikely that it is the Roman Catholic Church. Rather, it is an irresistible power run by the minions of Satan that massacres those who have joined the Kingdom of YHVH, indicated by the mark inscribed on their foreheads.

Jesus Christ warned us about this time period when he said that "Whoever lives will die, and whoever dies for my sake, will live."

It's a great tragedy that the Founding Fathers and Mother of Adventism have misled millions by their sloppy scholarship and misinterpretation of prophecies, creating a denomination founded on baloney. If they only could have made Jesus appear in the mid-1800's, it might have turned out alright...

Jesus explained quite clearly what would happen just before his return, but the Founding Fathers and Mother pinned those events to the 1800's, thus misleading all of their gullible followers into thinking his appearance was imminent. It was a case, sadly, of the blind leading the blind.

What we need to do is to stop eating the baloney and get rid of it, then believe that these four beasts/worldwide kingdoms and Jesus' warnings are indeed about Last Day Events of the future, not historical events stretching over the last two millennia. Unless we lay down our baloney sandwiches, the LORD will raise others up to shed light on the scriptures, leaving us to clutch our tiny little baloney treasure, imagining that we, alone, have the "Truth".

We can fix this denomination and get it back on the right track, but that will take courage, a clear mind, and an unrelenting study of the scriptures, especially concerning the Day of the LORD and Last Days Events.

[JoeMo]

Hey Alien,

I really appreciate the fact that you have the capacity to look outside the denominational box at biblical eschatology. Although your specific scenario differs from mine, we agree that the events described in Daniel 8 and onward are future end-time events; not past history. I also like your thoughts on everyone eventually having the opportunity to make an informed decision on being for or against Christ; rather than making the decision under the influence of corrupted denominations and/or total lack of exposure to YHVH.

I feel that there is a growing body of believers that are coming to these same conclusions.

[Samie]

...

Only after the resurrection will there be such a huge surging mass of people, all brought back to life by the Spirit of YHVH. Only four kingdoms will be permitted to rule these billions and billions of people. The rulers of these kingdoms have already been chosen. Nebuchadnezzar is the first, as indicated by his dream, and as the head of gold of the Statue of the Four Last Days Kingdoms depicts.

This is the time of testing for all, save the 144K. It is their opportunity to make an informed choice on whether they wish to be servants of YHVH or servants of Satan. Unfortunately, far too many will be deceived by Satan and his representatives, thinking he would make the better master and his kingdom of pleasure more desirable.

...

God HAD already done everything in equipping us, the descendants of Adam & Eve, to be able to overcome evil with good. He has already attached us to the body of His Son on the cross. We are already part of His family, with our names written in the registry of heaven - the book of life - from the foundation of the world. Unless, at death, removed from His family via blotting out of our names from the book of life for NON-OVERCOMING while alive, we are destined for heaven.

It is NOW in our lifetime where we do our share in deciding our eternal destiny. God has already done His part, and still CONTINUES doing His responsibility for us under the terms of the New Covenant by NOT imputing against us any sin we now commit (2 Cor 5:18, 19) because this sin had been forgiven when our Lord died on the cross (Col 2:13,14). In fact, God remembers this sin NO MORE (Heb 10:16,17)! But this sin is the evidence that we have not yet overcome this specific evil. But there is yet ample time to overcome while alive. We have the strength to overcome being attached to the Body of Him Who is our strength to overcome (Phil 4:13). It is not a question of INABILITY but one of REFUSAL to overcome evil with good (Rom 12:21).

Our only chance is NOW. Not AFTER the resurrection.

When our Savior comes again, He will reward EVERY MAN according to what each has done (Matt 16:27; Rev 22:12). All will be resurrected, both the just and the unjust (Dan 12:2; John 5:28,29; Acts 24:15), and with those still alive, every eye will see Him coming in the clouds (Rev 1:7); all will be present to receive his due reward: eternal life for all whose names remain in the book of life; to all others, the wrath of God - the 7 last plagues - and finally thrown into the lake of fire. (see Rom 2:5-11; Rev 21:27; 20:15).

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

the setting up of the abomination of desolation will find fulfillment shortly before the 2nd Coming.

Just an addendum.

"Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God."2 Thess 2:1-4 NKJV

Has anyone on CA come to a conclusion re: the identification of the underlined?

God cares! Jesus saves!

[JoeMo]

Hey Samie,

Rather than start a new debate here, could you please look up posts by 8thdaypriest and tell me what you think (probably in a PM)? I thought she presented a pretty good case for a post-millennial resurrection for all those who never got a chance to make an informed decision for or against Christ. OTOH, she was not received well by some people here on CA and left.

[12tribes]

To say that Daniel 8 is future is out of context. We do not have to guess. The Ram=Medo Persia, The goat=Greece. We are told that in Daniel 8. Greece breaks onto four the same as Daniel 7.

[Samie]

To say that Daniel 8 is future is out of context. We do not have to guess. The Ram=Medo Persia, The goat=Greece. We are told that in Daniel 8. Greece breaks onto four the same as Daniel 7.

NOT everything in Dan 8 is future, NOR everything in it past. The Ram and He-goat are past. The king of fierce countenance = the little horn = the son of perdition or man of sin = the first beast of Rev 13 whose image is the abomination of desolation, is still future. You may want to read my position here in response to your post here.