Little horn of Dan 8

[Samie]

Quote:

the setting up of the abomination of desolation will find fulfillment shortly before the 2nd Coming.

Just an addendum.

"Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God."2 Thess 2:1-4 NKJV

Has anyone on CA come to a conclusion re: the identification of the underlined?

God cares! Jesus saves!

The son of perdition who is also the man of sin = the little horn of Dan 7 = the king of fierce countenance and little horn of Dan 8 = the vile-person king of Dan 11 = the first beast of Rev 13. He will rise to power shortly before the 2nd Coming.

[12tribes]

Originally Posted By: 12tribes

To say that Daniel 8 is future is out of context. We do not have to guess. The Ram=Medo Persia, The goat=Greece. We are told that in Daniel 8. Greece breaks onto four the same as Daniel 7.

NOT everything in Dan 8 is future, NOR everything in it past. The Ram and He-goat are past. The king of fierce countenance = the little horn = the son of perdition or man of sin = the first beast of Rev 13 whose image is the abomination of desolation, is still future. You may want to read my position here in response to your post here.

So you teach there is a gap of over 2000 years between Greece and the little horn. Both Daniel 2 & 7 do not have gaps so what you teach is out of context. Also Daniel 11 there is no gaps.

[Samie]

Hi 12tribes;

Of course there is a gap between the time when Greece defeated the Persians, and the rising into power of the king of fierce countenance = the little horn. The Bible specifies that the fierce-looking king will come into power at the "latter time" (Heb "achariyth"; Greek "eschatos") of their kingdom (Dan 8:20-24).

[12tribes]

Hi 12tribes;

Of course there is a gap between the time when Greece defeated the Persians, and the rising into power of the king of fierce countenance = the little horn. The Bible specifies that the fierce-looking king will come into power at the "latter time" (Heb "achariyth"; Greek "eschatos") of their kingdom (Dan 8:20-24).

Read these translations

Daniel 8:23 KJV

(23) And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

Notice it says the latter time of their kingdom, meaning the latter time of the Greek kingdom after it has been broken in four.

Daniel 8:23 ISV

(23) Toward the end of their rule, as the desecrations proceed, an insolent king will arise, proficient at deception.

Daniel 8:23 GW

(23) "In the last days of those kingdoms, when rebellions are finished, a stern-looking king who understands mysterious things will rise to power.

So this verse is saying not in the latter days But, when the four kingdoms rule come to and end. Daniel 11 after the break up of the Grecian kingdom into four has the king of the north and the king of the south. After them it shows Rome.

[Samie]

Hi 12tribes;

"In the latter time of THEIR kingdom" (v23)

"kingdom" from the Hebrew "malkuyah". "malkuyah" is plural. Hence, THEIR kingdom could NOT possibly refer to the Greek kingdom, but to the FOUR kingdoms in v22. That's why there is a gap from the defeat of Greece to the rising up in power of the king of fierce countenance, the king in one of the four kingdoms. His rising up in power is in the "latter time" (Greek "eschatos") of the 4 kingdoms. Dan 11:21 to 45, the last verse of the chapter, tell of the exploits of the vile-person king = the king of fierce countenance shortly before the 2nd Coming described in Dan 12:1,2.

[JoeMo]

The perceived gap problem is solved by taking the angel's word that the entire vision pertains to the time of the end (Dan. 8:17, 19, and 26) I personally can't fathom that the time of the end started anywhere around 400 BC.

Medo-Persia (the ram) as referred to in Daniel is modern-day Iran and Iraq - two of the world's biggest troublemakers. Each country is one horn on the ram. Grecia (the rought goat) as referred to in Daniel could easily be interpreted an modern-day Europe or the western world. Is it conceivable that Iran and/or Iraq could pose a threat so great to the western world that the EU (possibly in alliance with the U.S. and/or Israel)would attack them without mercy? You bet. Is it possible that the cost of defeating the ram would be so great that the economic and military power of the west would be broken (the goat's horn or power broken)? You bet. Is it possible that a consortium of four emerging countries (possibly Asian) could replace the U.S. and EU as the predominant military and economic powers on the planet? Absolutely. Is it possible that a powerful charismatic leader (an insolent, stern-looking king of fierce countenance - wielding occult power) could come out of nowhere to bring the illusion of world peace via totalitarianism and "perfect" surveilance to the planet? Possibly. Could be a "Christian", a Muslim, or a non-believing world diplomat/politician.

[8thdaypriest]

There WILL be another Temple.

Ezekiel 37:15-27 The LORD will gather the children of Israel. Judah and Israel will be joined into one kingdom - never to be separated again, with one King - from the line of David (v.24). The Lord will then make an everlasting covenant of peace with those He has gathered (v.26). “My tabernacle also shall be with them; . . . The nations also will know that I, the LORD, sanctify Israel, WHEN My sanctuary is in their midst forevermore.”

Ezekiel’s Temple is built AFTER the resurrection and return of the “whole house of Israel” to the land. That would put it AFTER the Second Coming. But there are prophecies pointing to a Temple on the holy Mount at Jerusalem BEFORE the glorious return of Christ.

BEFORE the Second Coming, I believe that a counterfeit Temple WILL be built. The LORD will NOT build this house, so they will labor in vain, but it will serve as the platform for Satan Himself.

2Thessalonians 2:3-4 “Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that HE SITS AS GOD IN THE TEMPLE OF GOD, showing himself that he is God.”

The only person who was allowed to sit in the Temple courtyard was the anointed King - from the line of David. This alone should tell you who the “son of perdition” is pretending to be. Yes - Yeshua Messiah - the anointed King of Israel. He will make fire come down from heaven (Rev. 13:13). This was the sign of the LORD’s presence for ancient Israel (Lev. 9:24, Num. 16:35, I Ki. 18:38, 2Chron 7:1). The “fire” consumed the sacrifice on the alter in the court of the Temple. This scenario requires a Temple, and the restoration of animal sacrifices.

He will demand worship - finally on pain of death.

The “false prophet” of Revelation 13:11-18, is a religious figure who will encourage all men to cooperate with the Beast system. This “false prophet” will prepare the way for the false “messiah,” just as John the Baptist prepared the way for Yeshua.

Those who believe that:

Messiah will reign on earth, during the approaching 7th millennium -

Messiah will rule the nations who survive the last plagues -

The faithful should offer animal sacrifices at a restored Temple at Jerusalem -

ARE BEING SET UP!

JEREMIAH - A TYPE OF THE LAST WITNESSES

Jeremiah was thrown into a pit to die, as punishment for his message to the king and priests - the ruling elite of Judah - just before the Babylonian destruction. He may be a type of the “two witnesses” who prophesy in the streets of Jerusalem just before the Glorious Return (Rev. 11:3-12). His message will be their message, and it will infuriate the rulers of Jerusalem who have just restored a Temple on Mt Zion. See Jer. 7:9-16, Josh.18:1, 1Sam. 4:10, & Psa. 78:60 regarding the destruction of the Tabernacle at Shiloh.

Jeremiah 26:6 [LORD speaking] "then I will make this house like Shiloh, and will make this city a curse to all the nations of the earth.”

Jeremiah 26:9 [Rulers of Jerusalem speaking to Jeremiah] “Why have you prophesied in the name of the LORD, saying, ‘This house shall be like Shiloh, and this city shall be desolate, without an inhabitant’?”

A CLEAN HOUSE - BUT WHO WILL MOVE IN?

Matthew 12:43 “When an unclean spirit goes out of a man, he goes through dry places, seeking rest, and finds none. Then he says, ‘I will return to my house from which I came.’ And when he comes, he finds it empty, swept, and put in order. Then he goes and takes with him seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter and dwell there; and the last state of that man is worse than the first. SO SHALL IT ALSO BE WITH THIS WICKED GENERATION."

The generation who see the House at Jerusalem, "swept clean" and “put in order,” will see the Son of Perdition “sit in the Temple of God, showing himself that he is God”.

Blessings

Rachel Cory

Prophecy Viewpoint (now up to 3700 visitors per month!)

[Samie]

...

BEFORE the Second Coming, I believe that a counterfeit Temple WILL be built. The LORD will NOT build this house, so they will labor in vain, but it will serve as the platform for Satan Himself.

2Thessalonians 2:3-4 “Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that HE SITS AS GOD IN THE TEMPLE OF GOD, showing himself that he is God.”

The only person who was allowed to sit in the Temple courtyard was the anointed King - from the line of David. This alone should tell you who the “son of perdition” is pretending to be. Yes - Yeshua Messiah - the anointed King of Israel. He will make fire come down from heaven (Rev. 13:13). This was the sign of the LORD’s presence for ancient Israel (Lev. 9:24, Num. 16:35, I Ki. 18:38, 2Chron 7:1). The “fire” consumed the sacrifice on the alter in the court of the Temple. This scenario requires a Temple, and the restoration of animal sacrifices.

He will demand worship - finally on pain of death.

The “false prophet” of Revelation 13:11-18, is a religious figure who will encourage all men to cooperate with the Beast system. This “false prophet” will prepare the way for the false “messiah,” just as John the Baptist prepared the way for Yeshua.

...

[JoeMo]

Welcome back Rachel - I missed your insight, scholarship and open mind.

I also suspect that a 3rd temple will be built. I have heard rumors about a "kosher" red hiefer , a resurgence of ceremonial sacrifices, and that most of the structural components of a new Temple are already prepared - just waiting for assembly.

Nice follow-up, too, Samie. If you would, give me some feedback on my idea of the ram in Dan 8 possibly being modern-day Iran and Iraq (especially given recent news from the region); and an EU/USA alliance being the rough goat. It's OK to disagree; it's just a concept I'm playing with now (but playing seriously).

[12tribes]

It looks like you people are trying hard to get rid of 1844 and the 2300 days. It also looks like what you people are saying is based on opinion not the Bible.

Daniel 2, 7 &11 do not have gaps so why would Daniel 8? It is clear in Daniel 8 who the Ram and Goat is. The division of 4 is also mentioned in Daniel 7 & 11 and there was no gap to the four from the first king.

[Samie]

12tribes;

I wonder how you could not see the more than FIFTY (50) verses referred to throughout my last post. Why don't you try discussing your NO GAP theory between the Greeks' defeating the Persians and the rising to power of the little horn?

I have discussed mine and the only reply you raise is INSISTENCE there is no gap. This is a discussion forum and it is better to discuss related issues instead of prying at motives of a poster.

[Samie]

It looks like you people are trying hard to get rid of 1844 and the 2300 days. It also looks like what you people are saying is based on opinion not the Bible.

Daniel 2, 7 &11 do not have gaps so why would Daniel 8? It is clear in Daniel 8 who the Ram and Goat is. The division of 4 is also mentioned in Daniel 7 & 11 and there was no gap to the four from the first king.

[12tribes]

First do you agree with the fact there are no gaps in the prophecy of Daniel chapter 2, from Babylon through to the kingdom of God. Remember I am only asking about Daniel 2 at the moment. Yes or No?

[Samie]

It appears there are no gaps in Daniel 2.

[12tribes]

It appears there are no gaps in Daniel 2.

Good to see we agree on something. Now let us move a little closer to Daniel 7, do you agree there are no gaps in Daniel 7?

[Samie]

There is gap in Daniel 7 between the 3rd beast and the coming up of the little horn. I have explained why there is gap in the post preceding my previous post. Please read that post first.

[8thdaypriest]

It looks like you people are trying hard to get rid of 1844 and the 2300 days. It also looks like what you people are saying is based on opinion not the Bible.

Daniel 2, 7 &11 do not have gaps so why would Daniel 8? It is clear in Daniel 8 who the Ram and Goat is. The division of 4 is also mentioned in Daniel 7 & 11 and there was no gap to the four from the first king.

Is this a - be sure to label them as against EGW/SDA doctrine so no one will listen to them - post?

[8thdaypriest]

The "stone" strikes the image (the whole image) on its feet, and the WHOLE image is then "crushed together (the gold, silver, bronze, iron and clay) - which would say that the WHOLE image exists just prior to its destruction.

The image then represents Satan's dominion.

The different metals represent different nations or powers being used or empowered by Satan, but it is really ONE dominion.

Same for the Revelation 13 first beast.

It has seven HEADS, which represent 7 mountains on which the woman (false religion) sits (Rev. 17:9).

Mountains represent kingdoms.

I would note that Jerusalem was labeled a "harlot" by the LORD, and also sits on 7 hills.

The "heads" all blaspheme - which to me implies religious teachings.

So this looks like state religions.

Five were fallen in John's day: Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece.

One was extant in John's day: Rome

One was yet to come after John's day: Papal Rome/ or Hitler (a short space v.10)/ or Islam

And one more - an eighth head - "is of the seven". (That would be the "little horn".)

Has the same doctrine as Babylon, just disguised with different names and terms.

One of the "heads" receives a deadly wound and comes back - and then persecutes for 3.5 years before the dominion is taken from Satan and given to Christ (and with Him "the saints of the most high").

Christ Himself had a deadly wound and then lived.

If Satan (or a man he channels) will personate Christ, he will pretend to be the one who WAS DEAD and is NOW ALIVE.

Just some thoughts.

Rachel Cory

Prophecy Viewpoint

[8thdaypriest]

In Daniel 7, the "terrible beast with its 10 horns and little horn is destroyed and burned (Dan 7:11)

BUT

"the rest of the beasts" "lives were prolonged for a season and a time" (7:12).

This is AFTER the terrible beast is destroyed.

This AFTER the Son of Man receives the dominion.

So my question would be:

WHEN is the "season" and "time" - when these "rest of the beasts" (lion, bear, leopard) will live

AFTER the Son of Man receives the dominion.

[12tribes]

There is gap in Daniel 7 between the 3rd beast and the coming up of the little horn. I have explained why there is gap in the post preceding my previous post. Please read that post first.

You teach no gaps in Daniel 2 but yet Daniel 7 which covers the same time periiod with the same powers you teach a gap. That is inconsistent.

Notice Daniel 7:24 speaking of the horns says the 10 horns out of the 4th beast shall arise. That means when the 4th beast first arises it has no horns, they arise later.

The 4th beast is Rome, the fact they come out of the 4th beast means they are Roman in origin, the little horn as well comes out of the 4th meaning the little horn is Roman in origin.

[JoeMo]

Quote:

The 4th beast is Rome

Is it the Bible that specifically identifies the 4th beast as Rome; or is it Adventism that identifies it as Rome? Also, is it scripture or Adventisn that stipulates that Daniel 2 and Daniel 7 cover the same time frames? I'm not saying you're wrong; but believing the 4th beast is Rome and that Daniel 2 and 7 cover the same time frame comes from my Adventist indoctrination; not from scripture. While an arguably logical deduction, it is still speculation and not an explicit and verifiable fact. Rachel has a point about Jerusalem also sitting on 7 hills. How could the 4th beast be destroyed by fire while the prior 3 lived on for a short time (Dan. 7:12)if the other three existed prior to the fourth? My conclusion - the beasts of Daniel 11 likely describe a future time; and they will rule concurrently.

[Samie]

Originally Posted By: Samie

There is gap in Daniel 7 between the 3rd beast and the coming up of the little horn. I have explained why there is gap in the post preceding my previous post. Please read that post first.

You teach no gaps in Daniel 2 but yet Daniel 7 which covers the same time periiod with the same powers you teach a gap. That is inconsistent.

Notice Daniel 7:24 speaking of the horns says the 10 horns out of the 4th beast shall arise. That means when the 4th beast first arises it has no horns, they arise later.

The 4th beast is Rome, the fact they come out of the 4th beast means they are Roman in origin, the little horn as well comes out of the 4th meaning the little horn is Roman in origin.

The issue is whether there is a gap between the expiry of the 3rd beast and the rise of the little horn. I already acknowledged there is NO gap between the 3rd and the 4th beasts. You yourself acknowledged that the 10 horns arise later. That's already a gap. So how could there be no gap when the little horn arises later than the 10 horns?

[Samie]

In Daniel 7, the "terrible beast with its 10 horns and little horn is destroyed and burned (Dan 7:11)

BUT

"the rest of the beasts" "lives were prolonged for a season and a time" (7:12).

This is AFTER the terrible beast is destroyed.

This AFTER the Son of Man receives the dominion.

So my question would be:

WHEN is the "season" and "time" - when these "rest of the beasts" (lion, bear, leopard) will live

AFTER the Son of Man receives the dominion.

[12tribes]

Quote:

The 4th beast is Rome

Is it the Bible that specifically identifies the 4th beast as Rome; or is it Adventism that identifies it as Rome? Also, is it scripture or Adventisn that stipulates that Daniel 2 and Daniel 7 cover the same time frames? I'm not saying you're wrong; but believing the 4th beast is Rome and that Daniel 2 and 7 cover the same time frame comes from my Adventist indoctrination; not from scripture. While an arguably logical deduction, it is still speculation and not an explicit and verifiable fact. Rachel has a point about Jerusalem also sitting on 7 hills. How could the 4th beast be destroyed by fire while the prior 3 lived on for a short time (Dan. 7:12)if the other three existed prior to the fourth? My conclusion - the beasts of Daniel 11 likely describe a future time; and they will rule concurrently.

You seem to be critical of Adventist theology , but yet use your own opinion to interpret the Bible?

[12tribes]

The issue is whether there is a gap between the expiry of the 3rd beast and the rise of the little horn. I already acknowledged there is NO gap between the 3rd and the 4th beasts. You yourself acknowledged that the 10 horns arise later. That's already a gap. So how could there be no gap when the little horn arises later than the 10 horns?

Do you know what the clay represents in the Bible? All the material in Daniel 2 represents something so the clay must as well. This does have to do with Daniel 7 & 8

Gold = Babylon

Silver = Medo Peria

Brass = Greece

Iron = Rome

Clay = ?

Stone = God's kingdom