From what has the believer been saved?

[Aliensanctuary]

In the Kingdom of YHVH, no transgressions of the laws for servants are tolerated. The key word is "holiness", that is, evil-free and transgression-free. The symbolic Kingdom in the desert of Sinai pointed to the real Kingdom of YHVH where there are animal and plant sacrifices, not for transgressions, but as a tithe to YHVH.

 

Some today may believe that they can lay down, roll over, and let God do it, but that is not the case. Our churches today do not teach "holiness unto the LORD", the lack of which puts us at great risk of being fooled by the father of lies who implies that intense personal efforts to seek purity are not needed. Babylon, it seems, has too many distractions that prevent us from seeking the "holiness" needed for membership in the Kingdom of YHVH.

[FallingRock44]

I believe that GOD our father through the Lord Jesus Christ saves us from ourselves.

 

As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
(Romans 3:10 KJV)

When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved? But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.
(Matthew 19:25-26 KJV)




 

[joeb]

From what have we been saved?   The Bible answers this question very clearly and quite succinctly.  

 

Matthew 1:21  And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

 

You will name Him Jesus.   Why?  Because He will save His people from their sins.   It can't get any clearer than that.  

[Robert]

From what have we been saved?   The Bible answers this question very clearly and quite succinctly.  

You will name Him Jesus.   Why?  Because He will save His people from their sins.   It can't get any clearer than that.  

The condemnation for sin or sin itself?  If the latter, are you sinless?

[Woody]

Good Point Robert. I've not seen anyone saved from sin. But I've met many saved from the condemnation of sin.

[LifeHiscost]

The condemnation for sin or sin itself?  If the latter, are you sinless?

15What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be! 16Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness? Romans 6

 

1My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; 2and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.…1John 2

 

God is Love! Jesus saves!

[teresaq]

From what has the believer been saved?  Or is being saved?  I doubt there is any such thing as instant sanctification since in my own life I see God has to deal with either my stubbornness, or ignorance. Sometimes sin just seems justified, certain feelings indulged, justified. Other times I really had no idea it was sin...peeling that onion, layer after layer.

 

I also think we probably make this whole sin thing far more complicated than it really is. I struggled in a certain area for decades, begged God, beat myself up as I have been taught by some poor churchies,  blah, blah....then I just concentrated on  "For it is God Who works in you both to will and to do...". When I saw myself doing what I wished to give up and the temptation would come to give up, feel hopeless, despair, all that good stuff, or try in some way even tho I had never succeeded before, I would put everything out of my mind and concentrate on that verse, and a couple of others. 

 

Then one day my "will" had been worked enough by God, that He was now able to empower me to do. Over time thoughts had come to me that I could accept or reject and as I accepted them, they transformed my mind, my thinking. And I was now empowered and found myself no longer doing it. The same has been becoming true in some other areas, ways of dealing with certain issues...Am I sinless? You know what they say: "A watched pot never boils". LOL I don't need to worry about it. I just need to look to Jesus, and not to how bad or hopeless I may be. He has been pretty good at letting me know when and what I need to change. I either accept or reject. But worrying one way or another isn't, hasn't, done me a bit of good in my 63 years.

 

Works pretty good. Self- and other- condemnation will never change or transform anyone. Neither will hopelessness, or navel gazing, or listening to what man considers sin, or whatever else we do. Only looking to Jesus and filling my mind with His word.

 

Oh, and I did have some support from some good people in this journey also.

[LifeHiscost]

From what has the believer been saved?  Or is being saved?  I doubt there is any such thing as instant sanctification since in my own life I see God has to deal with either my stubbornness, or ignorance. Sometimes sin just seems justified, certain feelings indulged, justified. Other times I really had no idea it was sin...peeling that onion, layer after layer.

 

I also think we probably make this whole sin thing far more complicated than it really is. I struggled in a certain area for decades, begged God, beat myself up as I have been taught by some poor churchies,  blah, blah....then I just concentrated on  "For it is God Who works in you both to will and to do...". When I saw myself doing what I wished to give up and the temptation would come to give up, feel hopeless, despair, all that good stuff, or try in some way even tho I had never succeeded before, I would put everything out of my mind and concentrate on that verse, and a couple of others. 

 

Then one day my "will" had been worked enough by God, that He was now able to empower me to do. Over time thoughts had come to me that I could accept or reject and as I accepted them, they transformed my mind, my thinking. And I was now empowered and found myself no longer doing it. The same has been becoming true in some other areas, ways of dealing with certain issues...Am I sinless? You know what they say: "A watched pot never boils". LOL I don't need to worry about it. I just need to look to Jesus, and not to how bad or hopeless I may be. He has been pretty good at letting me know when and what I need to change. I either accept or reject. But worrying one way or another isn't, hasn't, done me a bit of good in my 63 years.

 

Works pretty good. Self- and other- condemnation will never change or transform anyone. Neither will hopelessness, or navel gazing, or listening to what man considers sin, or whatever else we do. Only looking to Jesus and filling my mind with His word.

 

Oh, and I did have some support from some good people in this journey also.

Excellent personal testimony. I was trying to decide which part to repeat to get the full idea in a nutshell and could only add that below to give the best focus. I don't wish to detract from individual helps from others you've mentioned but that God may receive the glory I'd like to add this biblical principle.

It does seem you have found that peace that passes understanding the child of God is promised.

 

17As He was setting out on a journey, a man ran up to Him and knelt before Him, and asked Him, "Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?" 18And Jesus said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone. Mark 10

 

Sanctification is not the work of a moment, an hour, a day, but of a lifetime. It is not gained by a happy flight of feeling, but is the result of constantly dying to sin, and constantly living for Christ. Wrongs cannot be righted nor reformations wrought in the character by feeble, intermittent efforts. It is only by long, persevering effort, sore discipline, and stern conflict, that we shall overcome. We know not one day how strong will be our conflict the next. So long as Satan reigns, we shall have self to subdue, besetting sins to overcome; so long as life shall last, there will be no stopping place, no point which we can reach and say, I have fully attained. Sanctification is the result of lifelong obedience. {AA 560.3}[unquote]

 

God is Love! Jesus saves!

[joeb]

From what has the believer been saved?  Or is being saved?  I doubt there is any such thing as instant sanctification since in my own life I see God has to deal with either my stubbornness, or ignorance. Sometimes sin just seems justified, certain feelings indulged, justified. Other times I really had no idea it was sin...peeling that onion, layer after layer.

 

I also think we probably make this whole sin thing far more complicated than it really is. I struggled in a certain area for decades, begged God, beat myself up as I have been taught by some poor churchies,  blah, blah....then I just concentrated on  "For it is God Who works in you both to will and to do...". When I saw myself doing what I wished to give up and the temptation would come to give up, feel hopeless, despair, all that good stuff, or try in some way even tho I had never succeeded before, I would put everything out of my mind and concentrate on that verse, and a couple of others. 

 

Then one day my "will" had been worked enough by God, that He was now able to empower me to do. Over time thoughts had come to me that I could accept or reject and as I accepted them, they transformed my mind, my thinking. And I was now empowered and found myself no longer doing it. The same has been becoming true in some other areas, ways of dealing with certain issues...Am I sinless? You know what they say: "A watched pot never boils". LOL I don't need to worry about it. I just need to look to Jesus, and not to how bad or hopeless I may be. He has been pretty good at letting me know when and what I need to change. I either accept or reject. But worrying one way or another isn't, hasn't, done me a bit of good in my 63 years.

 

Works pretty good. Self- and other- condemnation will never change or transform anyone. Neither will hopelessness, or navel gazing, or listening to what man considers sin, or whatever else we do. Only looking to Jesus and filling my mind with His word.

 

Oh, and I did have some support from some good people in this journey also.

This is why sanctification is much by faith as justification is.  We can't change our hearts.  God can.  We can't change our spots.  God can.  All we can do is choose God and rely on Him to change us.  We have to choose to obey, but rely on God to change our hearts.  Then, because, as Jesus said:

 

 

Matthew 7:17  Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

Matthew 7:18  A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

When Christ changes our hearts we will obey.  That's what He says, and I believe Him because it makes perfect sense.  A heart regenerated by Him will be in tune with Him, and thus will be obedient to Him.  

 

This is the point of what Paul says about not being able to do that which he would.  Of course we can't do it on our own, but when our hearts are changed our actions will be too, for everything we do originates from who we are, or in other words, our hearts.   

[teresaq]

I would like to hear your own personal testimonies, joeb and LifeHiscost, as to how God has worked in your own lives, if you don't mind sharing.  If you noticed I didn't give specifics and its necessary that anyone else do so either. Its something I learned from the various 12 step groups. We can talk theory or we can talk experience. People tend to be convinced by experience.

 

Notice the woman at the well didn't say, there is a Person Who can tell all about you, rather she said Come meet a Person Who told ME about MYSELF. Testimony rather than theory. The same with the demoniac. He had no theory nor bible texts to throw out, but he had his own personal experience. So please do share with us, if comfortable.

[Robert]

15What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be! 16Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness? Romans 6

 

Why were we delivered from under law (see Rom 6:6)?  Because no matter how you add it up we are continually falling short of God's agape love (see Romans 3:23).

 

So Paul, in Romans 6, isn't speaking of perfection.  The type of sin he is speaking of is a cherished, practiced sin.  A practiced sin is not where I occasionally or repeatedly sin.  That's a besetting sin.

 

For example Jesus said that if I look at a woman lustfully I've sinned..  That's one reason I don't visit the beach very much, i.e., too much temptation. 

 

Let's say I go to the beach and not too long after being there here comes some women in bikinis.  Either I pray a lot, keep my head in the sand or I'm going to do some lusting.    When I lust I sin.  Now, the question is, do I condone lust as a legitimate lifestyle?

 

As Paul would say, "God forbid!"  That doesn't imply I didn't sin rather it means after I've sinned I do not justify my sin, but instead repent.  Self-justification of sin is practicing sin and that's what Paul is writing against in Romans 6 and elsewhere.

[Robert]

From what has the believer been saved?  Or is being saved?  I doubt there is any such thing as instant sanctification....

 

Actually, "in Christ" you already stand justified, sanctified and glorified.  Let's view this:

 

1 Cor 1:30 But of Him (God) you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God--this is our justification, sanctification and redemption (glorification)-- 31 that, as it is written, "He who glories, let him glory in the Lord."

 

Now, Heb 10:9 then He said, "Behold, I have come to do Your will, O God." ..... 10 By that will (by Christ's doing & dying) we have been sanctified (past tense) through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. 

 

Did you get that?  "in Christ" you already stand sanctified.  Let's read on:

 

14 For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified

 

In Christ you already, through faith, stand sanctified.  As you remain in Him you begin to experience what is already true of you in Christ.  Hence you are (present tense) "being sanctified".  

 

This is an important distinction. What saves you is your position, through faith, in Christ Jesus.  In Him you stand justified, sanctified and glorified.  If you have accepted this fact then a change will be seen.  This change does not save, but rather it testifies that your faith is in Christ.  Therefore sanctification (holy living) is demonstrative, not meritorious.  Many Christians have failed to distinguish between these two truths and have unintentionally drifted off in a subtle form of legalism.

[Robert]

 

 

Sanctification is not the work of a moment, an hour, a day, but of a lifetime. It is not gained by a happy flight of feeling, but is the result of constantly dying to sin, and constantly living for Christ. Wrongs cannot be righted nor reformations wrought in the character by feeble, intermittent efforts. It is only by long, persevering effort, sore discipline, and stern conflict, that we shall overcome. We know not one day how strong will be our conflict the next. So long as Satan reigns, we shall have self to subdue, besetting sins to overcome; so long as life shall last, there will be no stopping place, no point which we can reach and say, I have fully attained. Sanctification is the result of lifelong obedience. {AA 560.3}

[Robert]

In Christ you already, through faith, stand sanctified.  As you remain in Him you begin to experience what is already true of you in Christ.  Hence you are (present tense) "being sanctified".  

 

 

More evidence:

 

 John 15:3 "You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you."

 

Again, "in Christ" you are cleansed from all sin.  In Him you stand perfect through faith.  Now what?

 

 

 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.5 I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing (nothing good). ....

 

What is the function of good works?

 

 8 By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; so you will be My disciples. 

[teresaq]

Actually, "in Christ" you already stand justified, sanctified and glorified.  Let's view this:

 

1 Cor 1:30 But of Him (God) you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God--this is our justification, sanctification and redemption (glorification)-- 31 that, as it is written, "He who glories, let him glory in the Lord."

 

Now, Heb 10:9 then He said, "Behold, I have come to do Your will, O God." ..... 10 By that will (by Christ's doing & dying) we have been sanctified (past tense) through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. 

 

Did you get that?  "in Christ" you already stand sanctified.  Let's read on:

 

14 For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified

 

In Christ you already, through faith, stand sanctified.  As you remain in Him you begin to experience what is already true of you in Christ.  Hence you are (present tense) "being sanctified".  

 

This is an important distinction. What saves you is your position, through faith, in Christ Jesus.  In Him you stand justified, sanctified and glorified.  If you have accepted this fact then a change will be seen.  This change does not save, but rather it testifies that your faith is in Christ.  Therefore sanctification (holy living) is demonstrative, not meritorious.  Many Christians have failed to distinguish between these two truths and have unintentionally drifted off in a subtle form of legalism.

Hmmm, literalism does prevail, does it not? Then we have to do a lot of work to justify that literalism.

[teresaq]

 

4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.5 I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing (nothing good). ....

 

 

I agree with this. As long as I abide in Christ I am being sanctified. If I drift away from Christ I cease being sanctified. Also takes care of any confusion as to whether it is "demonstrative or meritorious", if I understand your reasoning.

[LifeHiscost]

Hmmm, literalism does prevail, does it not? Then we have to do a lot of work to justify that literalism.

If God weren't going to do it, why would He promise He will? And why would He ask something from us of which He knew we wouldn't be able to do? If these texts are true, and from personal experience I know they are, how could we expect or believe any of the other promises He has made?

 

7Submit therefore to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you. 8Draw near to God and He will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners; and purify your hearts, you double-minde

 

9Be miserable and mourn and weep; let your laughter be turned into mourning and your joy to gloom. 10Humble yourselves in the presence of the Lord, and He will exalt you.

 

11Do not speak against one another, brethren. He who speaks against a brother or judges his brother, speaks against the law and judges the law; but if you judge the law, you are not a doer of the law but a judge of it.

 

12There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the One who is able to save and to destroy; but who are you who judge your neighbor?

 

He has given instruction how all He instructs can be accomplished.

 

Philippians 4:13 I can do all all things through him who strengthens me. ...

 

God is Love! Jesus saves!

[Robert]

If God weren't going to do it, why would He promise He will?

 

7 Submit therefore to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you. 

Because submitting is something you do....Walking in the Spirit is something you do.  So if you submit, God will resist the devil....That's why Jesus said, "without Me you can do nothing" ...nothing good that is.

[LifeHiscost]

Because submitting is something you do....Walking in the Spirit is something you do.  So if you submit, God will resist the devil....That's why Jesus said, "without Me you can do nothing" ...nothing good that is.

I would suggest that just as Jesus said, "When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am He, and I do nothing on My own initiative, but I speak these things as the Father taught Me. 29"And He who sent Me is with Me; He has not left Me alone, for I always do the things that are pleasing to Him."…John 8; so also is the cooperative, godly activity of a submitted disciple of Christ.

 

…19"For through the Law I died to the Law, so that I might live to God. 20"I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me. Gal 2

 

God is Love! Jesus saves!

[teresaq]

If God weren't going to do it, why would He promise He will? And why would He ask something from us of which He knew we wouldn't be able to do? If these texts are true, and from personal experience I know they are, how could we expect or believe any of the other promises He has made?

Hmmm, where is the disconnect?  I am quite confused as to what it is you are disagreeing with...I do believe I will be glorified just as will all others waiting for the Lord just before He takes us to heaven, but I certainly don't believe I am sanctified now, and most certainly not glorified now. I'm a tad lost.... unless you believe you no longer sin, and have been given your new (glorified) body now?

 

Jesus stated that the God was not the God of the dead but of the living, but he certainly didn't teach the dead are still alive. We have to be careful of reading only the surface words as we are being urged by some and refusing to look deeper, ever deeper, where those pearls lie.

[teresaq]

 

 

Because submitting is something you do....Walking in the Spirit is something you do.  So if you submit, God will resist the devil....That's why Jesus said, "without Me you can do nothing" ...nothing good that is.

That is how I understand it. We are told that Satan is much, much stronger than we are. There is no way we can resist the enemy in our own strength and win. But when we run to Christ victory is assured. Satan sees Christ and just as he quivered and fled in the desert with Christ, he does the same when we seek to be in Christ.

[Woody]

I've often 'run' to Christ and victory was not assured. Some issues .... I've prayed for years for the outpouring of the Holy Spirit in my life. And the request was denied. I long for the outpouring of the Holy Spirit. But how and when it is applied is up to God and not up to my prayers. God is in control. Not my wants and prayers.

[JoeMo]

I started praying like a conversation with God rather than a rote list of routine praises and requests.  I would ask God questions and then just start writing what I thought His answer was.  With practice, the answers seemed to be His Voice more often than my imagination (not always, though).  I visualize us walking somewhere - in His time or our time - having a conversation.  Sometimes it's just banter; sometimes it's silence; but more often than not, most times things get spiritual (imagine that!).

 

I have learned through these conversations that God cares more about about a friendship or parent-child relationship than He does about overcoming of our own volition.  He is so rich, so powerful, so loving, and so gracious that He will adopt anyone who wants to be His child; and He teaches us the Family traditions and the Family business once we are already His children.  As any parent with multiple children knows, some children learn faster and better than others; but we love them and accept them just the same.  So it is with God and us.

 

It amazes me why Someone as awesome as God would care about some slime-dog like me.  But I'm sure glad He does!

[JoeMo]

Let's say I go to the beach and not too long after being there here comes some women in bikinis.  Either I pray a lot, keep my head in the sand or I'm going to do some lusting.    When I lust I sin.  Now, the question is, do I condone lust as a legitimate lifestyle?

I think you're getting lust confused with temptation.  Temptation is recognizing the beauty of women and maybe beginning to react to it.  Lust is giving into that temptation and spending 30 minutes imagining "things" after you notice them.  The writer of Hebrews said that Jesus was tempted in all ways as we are.  If that's true, He's a big boy and understands the potential power of alluring women and how men react to them.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

 

 

It amazes me why Someone as awesome as God would care about some slime-dog like me.  But I'm sure glad He does!

 

you're not a slime-dog....you're the son of THE King -- a "prince," if you will....