From what has the believer been saved?

[Robert]

".... God requires entire surrender of the heart, before justification can take place..."

 

 

While many of EGW statements are in line with the Bible, some I question. This is one of them, but that's okay because she would tell me go to your Bible because ultimately that is the measuring stick of truth.  The Bible, she would say, is the infallible source and she, although guided by the Spirit, was fallible.

 

Taking her advice let's look at James 2:24 

 

"You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone."

 

In other words a person's actions proves their faith.  Here James is not speaking of law oriented works, but works of faith.

 

25 Likewise, was not Rahab the prostitute also justified by works when she welcomed the messengers and sent them out by another road? 

 

When was Rahab justified by her works of faith, after she left her life of prostitution, or before?

 

Answer: Before!

 

Rahab was still a prostitute, yet James stated she stood just before God.  How so?

 

If you read the story Rahab put her life on the line in order to save the two Israeli spies. That's a faith that works....She believed in the God of Israeli and her work of faith proved it.

 

So she was justified while still a sinner....

 

Now Paul:

 

Romans 4: 2 For if Abraham was justified by works (law obedience), he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness."

 

God took Abraham where he was at.

 

God took Rahab where she was at.

 

God accepts sinners just as they are.  As they rest in His finished work then a change takes place.

[Robert]

 

John 8, Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin.”

 

Therefore we are all born slaves to our love of self (iniquity)

 

Hebrews 10, If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left,

 

Out of context! This is speaking of the sin of unbelief.  Study chapter 10.  It isn't speaking of transgression.

 

1John 3, Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

 

Yes, and the root of all sin is the love of self.  That's why the law demands that you love your neighbor as you naturally love self.  Self-love is our problem.  As Ellen White states, "the lover of self is a transgressor"

 

1John 3:6 Whosoever abideth in Him sinneth not...

 

There's two ways to look at this:

 

1]  If you are keeping your faith in Christ, God looks at you in Christ as though you never sinned.

 

2] Who ever keeps his faith in Christ does not practice sin as a lifestyle.  Better translations reveal this idea.  For example when David committed adultery and murder he wasn't practicing sin.  He repented....A practiced sin is one you refused to repent of....Many sins are besetting, not practiced.  A man can have problems with porn, but unless he has declared that it is not sin and he need not repent, it's not a practiced sin. So we need to get these concepts right.....

 

 

[Samie]

Sanctification is the work of a life time. Justification works in an instant. ...

 

NAS Hebrews 10:10 By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

 

NRS Romans 4:25 who was handed over to death for our trespasses and was raised for our justification.

[LifeHiscost]

NAS Hebrews 10:10 By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

 

NRS Romans 4:25 who was handed over to death for our trespasses and was raised for our justification.

As well as,

 

…6knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; 7for he who has died is freed from sin. 8Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him,…Romans 6

 

God is Love! Jesus saves!

[LifeHiscost]

LifeHiscost, on 04 Oct 2014 - 3:53 PM, said:

If God weren't going to do it, why would He promise He will? And why would He ask something from us of which He knew we wouldn't be able to do? If these texts are true, and from personal experience I know they are, how could we expect or believe any of the other promises He has made?

Hmmm, where is the disconnect?  I am quite confused as to what it is you are disagreeing with...I do believe I will be glorified just as will all others waiting for the Lord just before He takes us to heaven, but I certainly don't believe I am sanctified now, and most certainly not glorified now. I'm a tad lost.... unless you believe you no longer sin, and have been given your new (glorified) body now?

 

Jesus stated that the God was not the God of the dead but of the living, but he certainly didn't teach the dead are still alive. We have to be careful of reading only the surface words as we are being urged by some and refusing to look deeper, ever deeper, where those pearls lie. [unquote]

 

I lost my way on this also as I'm not sure what my response was addressed to. Here's the counsel. Matthew 5:48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is ...   Just as the Ten Commandments are given as promises, the Word "shall" being used, so also is the text just quoted a promise, as the Word "Be" is fulfilled by the power of God through the Holy Spirit. Since we, in our fallen condition, fail to measure up,   "All ye like sheep have gone astray.", so also sanctification is a work in progress, waiting to be completed at the coming of our Lord. In the meantime I am being saved by justification offered through the blood of Jesus, shed on my behalf as well as all those who see Jesus as their only Hope of being accounted worthy to enter the courts of Heaven.

 

…15Do not lie in wait, O wicked man, against the dwelling of the righteous; Do not destroy his resting place; 16For a righteous man falls seven times, and rises again, But the wicked stumble in time of calamity. 17Do not rejoice when your enemy falls, And do not let your heart be glad when he stumbles;…Proverbs 24

 

Hope this clarifies any misapprehension that was elicited from a previous post.

 

God is Love! Jesus saves!

[LifeHiscost]

Considering or reckoning one dead to sin is not the same as being in reality dead to sin.  As John states, "If we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves."  Growth?  Yes!  Perfection?  No!

So I'm assuming you don't believe Jesus, speaking through the Holy Spirit, is realistic. Just a note on progressive sanctification, I've met individuals who use to practice certain behavioral characteristics, who now find those same attributes revolting. By the grace of God to be sure, nonetheless victorious on certain points before their translation at the coming of Jesus.   

 

God is Love! Jesus saves!

[LifeHiscost]

 

Texts to keep in mind:

 

Romans 3:10 As it is written: "There is none righteous, no, not one"

 

As also:

 

7Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; 8the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil.…1 John 3

 

God is Love! Jesus saves!

[Robert]

As also:

 

7Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; 8the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil.…1 John 3

 

God is Love! Jesus saves!

 

 

Just because I do not condone sin as a lifestyle (hence practice righteousness) does not make me righteous as Christ is righteous.  I am righteous by faith!  Meaning, "in Christ" I stand positively righteous.  Of myself I fall short of the glory of God (see Romans 3:23)

[LifeHiscost]

Just because I do not condone sin as a lifestyle (hence practice righteousness) does not make me righteous as Christ is righteous.  I am righteous by faith!  Meaning, "in Christ" I stand positively righteous.  Of myself I fall short of the glory of God (see Romans 3:23)

Just which one of these words do you not agree with?.... just as He is righteous.... To be fair, here is a few different translations.

 

7The one who does what is right is righteous, just as He is righteous....1 John 3:7 NIV    7Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous

 

7 he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as He is righteous. KJV      7Dear children, don’t let anyone deceive you about this: When people do what is right, it shows that they are righteous, even as Christ is righteous.....NLT

 

7Little children, let no one lead you astray; he who is doing the righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous, 8he who is doing the sin, of the devil he is, because from the beginning the devil doth sin....YLT

 

7Dear children, don't let anyone deceive you. Whoever does what God approves of has God's approval as Christ has God's approval. 8The person who lives a sinful life belongs to the devil, because the devil has been committing sin since the beginning....GWT

 

God is Love! Jesus saves!

[Robert]

Just which one of these words do you not agree with?.... just as He is righteous.... To be fair, here is a few different translations.

 

 

Let's look at the context:

 

I'll use the NAS:

 

2 We know that when He appears, we will be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is.

 

When Christ returns those living will be fully reflecting Him.  This is not what saves, rather it's the ultimate fruit of the gospel - the bride fully grown.

 

This group, represented by the 144,000, will go through the time of Jacob's trouble.  It is this group that "loved not their lives even unto death".  All self-love and self-seeking are gone because they are completely dependent upon Christ because all earthly support has been cutoff.  

 

3 And everyone who has this hope fixed on Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.

 

Notice the process.  This is nothing more than sanctification.  Even though you are growing you are falling short of God's life.  See Rom 3:23.  

 

4 Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness. 5 You know that He appeared in order to takeaway sins; and in Him there is no sin. 6 No one who abides in Him ( practices) sin; no one who (practices) sin has seen Him or knows Him. 7 Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous....

 

The context is about growth.  Growth does not equal perfection.  Therefore we can't be as righteous as Christ.  The only righteousness that is perfect is the imputed righteousness of Christ received by faith.

[LifeHiscost]

Let's look at the context:

 

The context is about growth.  Growth does not equal perfection.  Therefore we can't be as righteous as Christ.  The only righteousness that is perfect is the imputed righteousness of Christ received by faith.

26And he said, So is the kingdom of God, as if a man should cast seed into the ground; 27And should sleep, and rise night and day, and the seed should spring and grow up, he knoweth not how. 28For the earth bringeth forth fruit of herself; first the blade, then the ear, after that the full corn in the ear. 29But when the fruit is brought forth, immediately he putteth in the sickle, because the harvest is come....Mark 4

 

20And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: 21Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you....Luke 17

 

Is the seed perfect in the blade? In the ear? Perhaps in the full ear of the corn. The Kingdom of God is within you and it is what was sown by the Master. Are you suggesting Jesus has sown less than perfect seed? So long as there is one sin that we want, we are still enslaved by the enemy of souls. As long as we give our hearts to Christ, in the face of any or all temptation, we are perfect in Christ as verified by His Word.

 

7Submit therefore to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you. 8Draw near to God and He will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners; and purify your hearts, you double-minded.…James 4

 

Either this is true or we need to ask ourselves if the God we serve is impotent for He is the One Who has made the promise.

 

…12Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed that he does not fall. 13No temptation has overtaken you but such as is common to man; and God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will provide the way of escape also, so that you will be able to endure it....1 Cor 10

 

My conclusion is He is up to His promises if we have chosen Him as our strength.

 

…19"For through the Law I died to the Law, so that I might live to God. 20"I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me....Gal 2

 

God is Love! Jesus saves!

[Robert]

The religious services, the prayers, the praise, the penitent confession of sin ascend from true believers as incense to the heavenly sanctuary; but passing through the corrupt channels of humanity, they are so defiled that unless purified by blood, they can never be of value with God. They ascend not in spotless purity, and unless the Intercessor who is at God’s right hand presents and purifies all by His righteousness, it is not acceptable to God. All incense from earthly tabernacles must be moist with the cleansing drops of the blood of Christ. He holds before the Father the censer of His own merits, in which there is no taint of earthly corruption. He gathers into this censer the prayers, the praise, and the confessions of His people, and with these He puts His own spotless righteousness. Then, perfumed with the merits of Christ’s propitiation, the incense comes up before God wholly and entirely acceptable. Then gracious answers are returned.

 

O, that all may see that everything in obedience, in penitence, in praise and thanksgiving must be placed upon the glowing fire of the righteousness of Christ. The fragrance of this righteousness ascends like a cloud around the mercy seat (Manuscript 50, 1900).

[Robert]

 

 

 the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous

 

 As Joshua pleaded before the Angel, so the remnant church, with brokenness of heart and unfaltering faith, will plead for pardon and deliverance through Jesus, their Advocate. They are fully conscious of the sinfulness of their lives, they see their weakness and unworthiness; and they are ready to despair.

 

The tempter stands by to accuse them, as he stood by to resist Joshua. He points to their filthy garments, their defective characters. He presents their weakness and folly, their sins of ingratitude, their unlikeness to Christ, which has dishonored their Redeemer. He endeavors to affright them with the thought that their case is hopeless, that the stain of their defilement will never be washed away. He hopes so to destroy their faith that they will yield to his temptations, and turn from their allegiance to God.

 

Satan has an accurate knowledge of the sins that he has tempted God's people to commit, and he urges his accusations against them, declaring, that by their sins they have forfeited divine protection, and claiming that he has the right to destroy them. He pronounces them just as deserving as himself of exclusion from the favor of God. "Are these," he says, "the people who are to take my place in heaven, and the place of the angels who united with me? They profess to obey the law of God; but have they kept its precepts? Have they not been lovers of self more than lovers of God? Have they not placed their own interests above His service? Have they not loved the things of the world? Look at the sins that have marked their lives. Behold their selfishness, their malice, their hatred of one another. Will God banish me and my angels from His presence, and yet reward those who have been guilty of the same sins? Thou canst not do this, O Lord, in justice. Justice demands that sentence be pronounced against them."

 

But while the followers of Christ have sinned, they have not given themselves up to be controlled by the satanic agencies. They have repented of their sins and have sought the Lord in humility and contrition, and the divine Advocate pleads in their behalf. He who has been most abused by their ingratitude, who knows their sin and also their penitence, declares: "The Lord rebuke thee, O Satan. I gave My life for these souls. They are graven upon the palms of My hands. They may have imperfections of character; they may have failed in their endeavors; but they have repented, and I have forgiven and accepted them." [PK 588, 589]

[LifeHiscost]

 

They are graven upon the palms of My hands. They may have imperfections of character; they may have failed in their endeavors; but they have repented, and I have forgiven and accepted them." [PK 588, 589]

13Then one of the elders asked me, “These in white robes—who are they, and where did they come from?”

14I answered, “Sir, you know.”

And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb....Rev 7

 

God is Love! Jesus saves!  

[Robert]

13Then one of the elders asked me, “These in white robes—who are they, and where did they come from?”

14I answered, “Sir, you know.”

And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb....Rev 7

 

 

Yes, and this doesn't apply to you and me.  Like I said previously,

 

When Christ returns those living will be fully reflecting Him.  This is not what saves, rather it's the ultimate fruit of the gospel - the bride fully grown.

 

This group, represented by the 144,000, will go through the time of Jacob's trouble.  It is this group that "loved not their lives even unto death".  All self-love and self-seeking are gone because they are completely dependent upon Christ because all earthly support has been cutoff.  

 

[Robert]

 When he sees a weakness in his character, it is not enough to confess it again and again; he must go to work with determination and energy to overcome his defects by building up opposite traits of character. 

 

Are you suggesting that Jesus does not forgive besetting sins?

[LifeHiscost]

Of course God accepts sinners, but He justifies only the penitent. But by definition the penitent  are they who have chosen to renounce their sinful ways.

 

Grace is a power which one must choose to use. It is not  given as a substitute for self-denial and a committed will to live by every word of God.

 

     The religion of Christ is not what many think it is, nor what their lives represent it to be. The love of God in the soul will have a direct influence upon the life, and will call the intellect and the affections into active, healthful exercise. The child of God will not rest satisfied until he is clothed with the righteousness of Christ, and sustained by his life-giving power. When he sees a weakness in his character, it is not enough to confess it again and again; he must go to work with determination and energy to overcome his defects by building up opposite traits of character. He will not shun this work because it is difficult. Untiring energy is required of the Christian; but he is not obliged to work in his own strength; divine power awaits his demand. Every one who is sincerely striving for the victory over self, will appropriate the promise, “My grace is sufficient for thee.” [2 Corinthians 12:9.]  {GW92 420.3}

 

Heb 12:4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.

The only "must" for personal striving, I concentrate on is from the Word. With love for God, prayer, and Bible study, all the rest falls in place.

 

…11"He is the STONE WHICH WAS REJECTED by you, THE BUILDERS, but WHICH BECAME THE CHIEF CORNER stone. 12"And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved."....Acts 4 emphasis theirs' LHC

 

Probably  as important is this one. However just as we had no volition in our first birth, so our second birth is primarily Divinely ordained and our choice in the matter is achieved by submitting to His will.

 

…6"That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7"Do not be amazed that I said to you, 'You must be born again.' 8"The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit."…..John 3

 

God is Love! Jesus saves! 

[Robert]

Anyway, we've strayed from the topic.  The believer was clearly delivered from under law.  See Romans 7:6 & Gal 3:35

 

If not, then the law is binding on you as a believer.

 

If it is binding then Gal 3:10 says the following: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law." 

[LifeHiscost]

Yes, and this doesn't apply to you and me.  Like I said previously,

14.And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Rev 7

 

Since the great tribulation hasn't been entered yet, that conclusion is just an assumption. And all people on earth except those defined as below, originate from one of the twelve tribes of Israel.

 

…8'I know your deeds. Behold, I have put before you an open door which no one can shut, because you have a little power, and have kept My word, and have not denied My name. 9Behold, I will cause those of the synagogue of Satan, who say that they are Jews and are not, but lie-- I will make them come and bow down at your feet, and make them know that I have loved you. 10Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.….Rev 3

 

God is Love! Jesus saves! 

[Robert]

But it is not what saves....It's demonstrative, not meritorious.

[LifeHiscost]

Anyway, we've strayed from the topic.  The believer was clearly delivered from under law.  See Romans 7:6 & Gal 3:35

 

If not, then the law is binding on you as a believer.

 

If it is binding then Gal 3:10 says the following: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law." 

12Here is the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus.  Rev 14

 

Since those commandments are part of the experience of those who reside in the Kingdom after having been delivered from disobedience, I can live with that. And I share with king David his joy.

 

97.O how love I thy law! it is my meditation all the day....Psalms119  

163I hate and abhor lying: but thy law do I love.

164Seven times a day do I praise thee because of thy righteous judgments.

165Great peace have they which love thy law: and nothing shall offend them....Psalms 119

 

God is Love! Jesus saves!

[Robert]

12Here is the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus.  Rev 14

Again, this refers to the 144,000.  Context: verse  1 Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father's name written on their foreheads.

[Robert]

Anyway, we've strayed from the topic.  The believer was clearly delivered from under law.  See Romans 7:6 & Gal 3:35

 

If not, then the law is binding on you as a believer.

 

If it is binding then Gal 3:10 says the following: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law." 

 

Now, having said the above, the law is still a standard for Christians living under grace.  Don't believe me?

 

Gal 5:13 You, my brothers, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the sinful nature; rather, serve one another in love. 14 The entire law is summed up in a single command: "Love your neighbor as yourself."

 

What does Paul mean by "called to be free"?

 

Gal 5:1 It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery. 2 Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised (one of requirements of the law), Christ will be of no value to you at all. 3 Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. 4 You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.

 

So there are two ditches:

 

1] Legalism

 

2] Living for your nature as a life style

 

Both can cause you to fall from grace.

[LifeHiscost]

Again, this refers to the 144,000.  Context: verse  1 Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father's name written on their foreheads.

I prefer to accept this counsel.

 

  

4-17 (Revelation 14:1-4; 2 Corinthians 3:18). Strive to Be Among the 144,000—[Revelation 7:9-17 quoted.] Those whom the Lamb shall lead by the fountains of living waters, and from whose eyes He shall wipe away all tears, will be those now receiving the knowledge and understanding revealed in the Bible, the Word of God....{7BC 970.8}

We are to copy no human being. There is no human being wise enough to be our criterion. We are to look to the man Christ Jesus, who is complete in the perfection of righteousness and holiness. He is the author and finisher of our faith. He is the pattern man. His experience is the measure of the experience that we are to gain. His character is our model. Let us, then, take our minds off the perplexities and the difficulties of this life, and fix them on Him, that by beholding we may be changed into His likeness. We may behold Christ to good purpose. We may safely look to Him; for He is all-wise. As we look to Him and think of Him, He will be formed within, the hope of glory.{7BC 970.9}

Let us strive with all the power that God has given us to be among the hundred and forty-four thousand (The Review and Herald, March 9, 1905).{7BC 970.10}

 

33"But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days," declares the LORD, "I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34"They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,' for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them," declares the LORD, "for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more."…Jeremiah 31

 

God is Love! Jesus saves! 

[LifeHiscost]

LHC,

I understand your point, but I think we have become so intent on not being labeled legalists that we become afraid to exercise the will .

 

 The Lord does not propose to perform for us either the willing or the doing. His grace is given to work in us to will and to do, but never as a substitute for our effort. " {AG 142.5}

 

How then shall we accept this counsel from the Word?

 

....work out your salvation with fear and trembling; 13for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.....Phil 2

 

Some are called to place more emphasis in one area than that to which another might be called. Having been reading some definite instructions from God to His people re: giving or ordering the making of the implements for the worship in the temple, He placed a lot of emphasis on the subject of those who were willing.

 

God is Love! Jesus saves!