From what has the believer been saved?

[JoeMo]

 

What is the crux of amazement is knowing he had imbued us with His Spirit to enpower us to overcome temptation to sin again.

I respectfully disagree, Y-girl; but maybe it's just semantics.  I believe that we are empowered to resist temptation and to overcome sin; but temptation will always be with us in this Age.  Jesus was even tempted in all ways just as we are; but He overcame sin on every occasion.  I've never met anyone who never even feels tempted any more.

Welcome (or welcome back)!  I generally like your posts.

[Robert]

Notice it says they have put away their sins.

 

Are you suggesting they are without sin?

[LifeHiscost]

Are you suggesting they are without sin?

I don't know of any that Jesus hasn't washed away.

 

4But—“When God our Savior revealed his kindness and love, 5he saved us, not because of the righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He washed away our sins, giving us a new birth and new life through the Holy Spirit.^a 6He generously poured out the Spirit upon us through Jesus Christ our Savior. 7Because of his grace he declared us righteous and gave us confidence that we will inherit eternal life.” 8This is a trustworthy saying, and I want you to insist on these teachings so that all who trust in God will devote themselves to doing good. These teachings are good and beneficial for everyone.

9Do not get involved in foolish discussions about spiritual pedigrees^b or in quarrels and fights about obedience to Jewish laws. These things are useless and a waste of time. 10If people are causing divisions among you, give a first and second warning. After that, have nothing more to do with them. 11For people like that have turned away from the truth, and their own sins condemn them.

 

And if we don't personally know or try to avoid what we do know, the peace that passes all understanding is ours. Here's a couple of promises we can claim.

 

34But Jesus was saying, "Father, forgive them; for they do not know what they are doing." Luke 23

 

And if we do fall, Jesus gives us another option so we can start anew.

 

1My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; 2and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.…1 John 2

 

Since repentance is a gift of God, we have only to ask, and no matter where we are in the world, the promise is ours. Often the greatest impediment we have is our unwillingness to believe that God actually does what He has promised to do. BTW we are told Jesus saves us from our sin, not in our sin.

 

2Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.

3All who have this hope in him purify themselves, just as he is pure.4Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness.5But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin.

7Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. The one who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous

6No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.

 

God said it and I believe it! Why?    …7Remember those who led you, who spoke the word of God to you; and considering the result of their conduct, imitate their faith. 8Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.

Hebrews 13

God is Love! Jesus saves!

[Woody]

There are many sins that God has chosen not to stop in my life. And it is up to Him. I've given my life to HIm. I've asked Him to stop me from sinning. So - it's all on Him. I can do nothing of myself.

[aka]

Woody, you have spoken of the very same dilemma my partner in marriage has. He speaks the very same way.

It's a problem that baffles me and I can't pin-point what is happening for him to get victory over pernicious small sins that he sees, but figures God will deal with. 

[aka]

“….For by grace you have been saved by faith”.

Saved from what?

From the justly deserved penalty for sinning against the law of God.

If it wasn’t for Jesus I’d still be carrying that burden of being condemned before God.

Because of my conscious acceptance of His vicarious substitute for my penalty I am free from the condemnation.

I thank Him even now constantly!

 

I personally can bear witness to coming up out of my baptismal waters and being imbued with His holy Spirit.

It wasn’t an emotional feeling. It was a knowing. It was no instantaneous state of perfection I was in during my early months and years as a new creature in Christ. It was a growing in sanctification to be more and more like Jesus. I had much mental and emotional healing to go through. I had to be taught the essence of remaining humble before Him and others. I was very rebellious and showed much disobedience. However, His love worked a miracle in me to learn the sound of His voice above the voice of the evil-one and I grew into a moral-being worshipping God in spirit and in truth.

 

I keep my good deeds under wraps and don’t boast of them. The Lord has them in His book. When I do sin I have an advocate in heaven that pleads my cause to the Father. If I sin and am not convinced I sinned, the holy Spirit needs to convict me of such. I don’t know if the blood of Christ cleanses me by default in such incidences.

 

To overcome temptation is also the work of His Spirit, to be sure. But there comes a matter of will-power on the behalf of the Christian person being touched with temptation, imo. That is something in the realm of theology I am not sure about.

That is the question. Does God’s Spirit overcome sin in our life without our co-operation?

 

Romans 10:10

For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.

 

2 Timothy 1:9

He has saved us and called us to a holy life.

[joeb]

Notice it says they have put away their sins.

The only thing we're taking back to the heavenly home is the character that Jesus gives us, and I'm happy to concur with Joeb's assessment of his deliverance. Praise God for those who no longer practice, nor even desire to practice what they once found difficult to resist but no longer find any desire to follow in that path.

 

…19"For through the Law I died to the Law, so that I might live to God. 20"I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me. Galatians 2

 

5"No man will be able to stand before you all the days of your life. Just as I have been with Moses, I will be with you; I will not fail you or forsake you. Joshua 1

 

15According to the Lord's word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.

16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 

17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.  1 Thess 4

 

God is Love! Jesus saves!

I didn't find those sins hard to resist.  I thought they were wonderful.  I loved them.  I had no sorrow for indulging in them.  

 

Character change is the result of being saved from sin.  What is character?  It is who we are at our core.  What we believe in, what we do when the chips are down, what we do when no one is looking.   That's what we will take to heaven.  There's no other part of us that is worth keeping.  It's the guarantee that sin will never rise again.  That's why submitting to God and obeying Him is so important.  It's the tool God uses to change our characters, and character change never happens all at once.  Character is built one day, one moment, at a time,  It's the result of our choices.  That's why sanctification is, as Ellen White says, the work of a lifetime.  It's also why sin is never overcome in a moment.  

 

So, the arguments about Christ only saving us from the results_of/condemnation_of sin fall flat because the very tools He uses to remove sin from us, or in other words, perfect us, require time.  That doesn't mean His tools that remove sin from us are weak.  It means they work hand-in-hand with human nature, not outside of human nature.  

 

This is why Ellen White says all we really have is the power of choice.  The rest of it is God's work for only He knows each one of us how to go about removing sin from us.  I couldn't even begin to say how to do that about myself, let alone some one else.  Where would I start?  Where would I end?  It's all about trusting God to keep His promises because then we will go and do what God asks of us, and the result of that is God sanctifying us.  That's why sanctification is by faith, just as much as justification is.  

[Aliensanctuary]

Posted by myself under the wrong topic elsewhere, more or less:

 

 

If Adam and Eve were thrown out of the Garden for a seemingly small act of disobedience, triggered by telepathic forces of Satan, then we must be stronger than they were. If we were given the white robes which represent purity in Rev., how long could we keep them clean? Only by the memory wipe and destruction of self can we become willingly and totally obedient to our Master, only then will Sodom and Gomorrah and this world's sordid history never be repeated.

 

I believe this voluntary disengagement with evil will take place in the Valley of Decision after the Resurrection, but not until the Kingdom of YHVH is clearly explained to everyone who has ever lived. Once the telepathic demons are silenced, the universe will once again be safe and peaceful.

 

Both Adam and Eve were assaulted telepathically by the Evil One, and once their defenses were breached, they could no longer be trusted by their Creator. They, along with their descendants, would always be attacked and harassed by telepathic demonic forces, as we see today. In order to withstand the full-blown assault on our minds in the Last Days, we must understand the Kingdom of YHVH and prepare ourselves by fiercely resisting evil thoughts and actions and maintaining communion with our Creator.

 

In order to stand before YHVH, we must be stronger than Adam and Eve were. His simple commandments are not impossible for humans to obey. The real problem is that we are in a drunken stupor with the cares of this life: money, work, sex, food, entertainment, etc. I believe that we should each make a contract, or covenant, with YHVH to help us resist our selfishness, weaknesses, telepathic temptations from demons, and our tendency to overindulge.

 

If we can resist the unsanctified pleasures of this world now, we will be in a much stronger position to resist the deceptions of the Evil One during the time of testing, mentioned in Rev. YHVH won't magically turn us into "saints", rather, we must battle our own extreme selfishness within. Once others have become more important than we are, once YHVH's law's are in our thoughts daily, we have made a little progress. 

[Aliensanctuary]

 ...

[aka]

The Apostle John was the brother of Apostle James. They were known as ‘the sons of thunder’. Which could mean their father was an explosive hot head who left hurts in many with his episodes of yelling wrathful anger. This John was a fisherman as were the rest of his family men. He was one known for his great love for Jesus and not only sat next to Him at dinner invitations but leaned his head on the chest of Jesus in moments of trusting affection. He was chosen to write the book of Revelation.

The theme of agape love filled his epistles. The gospel of John has much more insights of divinity of the Godhead over the synoptic gospels.

 

It’s an established fact that God bestowed His love on mankind in general. All is set up as like a provision available. The catch is that each must individually reach toward the Cross for healing themselves. Others can't do it for them. I believe He has an even deeper depth of love for His spiritual children who love Him and are obedient to his commands. However, when the Holy Spirit leads us into truth of salvation, by faith we walk in the light that Jesus is in, and we have fellowship with God. One evidence of loving God is shown in the fruit of love within us for the other brethren in the body of Christ. I truly believe that as soon as we begin the Christian walk, God’s goal for us is to be restored to the divine image of God.

 

Victory over sin comes when we practice victory over every temptation. This has to do with exercising our free will to decide to choose right and deny (wilfully) doing wrong. We genuine children of God (recreated spiritually by the working of His Spirit in our hearts) will have a clear defined expectation of the second coming of Christ. As long as we are alive we are called to walk through a phase called sanctification. The genuine ones among the flock will strive for purity of life. They will pray for God to give them discernment between right and wrong. When they see the right path to go, they of their own volition will choose the right way.

 

There was no lawlessness in the Son of God. I am so utterly grateful that Jesus appeared and showed us the heavenly Father.

 

All sin is disregarding the established laws of God in any way. If any of us want to live in harmony with the laws of God we need to copy the life of Jesus. He brought to us the mystery of Salvation. Not only for the Jews as it was first planned but the mystery included all pagan gentiles as well. What is even a greater part of the Salvation mystery is the enabling grace He imparts to attain a level of virtue that pleases God. It’s something mysterious I can’t put into words. It really happens when the heart is submissive and co-operative.

 

Jesus came to accomplish the crucifixion and resurrection to free us from the effects of sin (being a habitual slave to sin). And cleaning away the stain of sin from our being.

 

And being separated from God with the list of sins we already have done. Atonement is the word.

At-one-with God.

 

As 1John 3 wrote ‘sinneth not’ it means more like “does not continue to sin” or “does not habitually sin”.

Now if we moment by moment of each day walk in the light, are tied tightly to the Vine, look to Jesus for every decision we make, are praying all the time to Jesus about everything happening to us in the day, surely we would not make mistakes or sin. But we all are wozzle heads with tads of carnality within us still, and we have natures which are rebellious when it comes to rules and regulations of do and don’t do. Yup, we fail, we enter into active sin when in temptation, we goof up. Oft times not deliberately, but we got overcome with the temptation from the evil one. Or we are just plain being led by our own lust of the flesh and sin without a demon pushing us in the mud-hole. However, we have Jesus as our advocate and when we confess our sin He is faithful and just to forgive us of our sin. But… what does show we are not genuine is our habitually sinning which gives evidence we have not really spiritually seen Jesus at some point in our lives. But that can be remedied by prayer and fasting while praying to God to give one the Holy Spirit and a vision of God’s true salvation plan.

[Robert]

When I do sin I have an advocate in heaven that pleads my cause to the Father.

 

I find your above quote interesting and baffling.

 

"When I do sin" must infer that you have reached perfection and you are without sin until you fail.  Do I misunderstand your statement?

[Robert]

Texts to keep in mind:

 

Romans 3:10 As it is written: "There is none righteous, no, not one"

 

Romans 3:19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin. 

 

Romans 3:22 For there is no difference; 23 for all have sinned (past tense) and fall short of the glory of God (present, continuous tense)"

 

"We (i.e., we Christians) may have flattered ourselves, as did Nicodemus, that our life has been upright, that our moral character is correct, and think that we need not humble the heart before God, like the common sinner: but when the light from Christ shines into our souls, we shall see how impure we are; we shall discern the selfishness of motive, the enmity against God, that has defiled every act of life." Ellen White

 

 

[aka]

As 1John 3 wrote ‘sinneth not’ it means more like “does not continue to sin” or “does not habitually sin”.

 

Now if we moment by moment of each day walk in the light, and are tied tightly to the Vine, and look to Jesus for every decision we make, and are praying all the time to Jesus about everything happening to us in the day, surely we would not make mistakes or sin.

 

But we all are wozzle heads with tads of carnality still alive within us still. Even though baptized and in theory raised up to newness of life, apparently  we have natures which are rebellious when it comes to rules and regulations of do and don’t do. Yup, we fail, we enter into active sin when in temptation, we goof up. Oft times not deliberately, but we could hazard to say we were overcomed with the temptation from the evil one and did not seek for the way of escape.

 

Or we are just plain being led by our own lust of the flesh and sin without a demon pushing us in the mud-hole.

 

However, we have Jesus as our advocate and when we confess our sin He is faithful and just to forgive us of our sin. 1John 1:9.  But… what does show we are not genuine is our habitually sinning which gives evidence we have not really spiritually seen Jesus at some point in our lives. But that can be remedied by prayer and fasting while praying to God to give one the Holy Spirit and a vision of God’s true salvation plan.

 

Robert nicely but erroneously wrote:

"When I do sin" must infer that you have reached perfection and you are without sin until you fail.  Do I misunderstand your statement?

 

The Methodist doctrine of perfectionism is not part of my ideology.

Do you walk each day with the stain of sin on your soul? Or do you understand being washed by His blood when you plead for forgiveness? Afterwards one is clean from sin and walks off with a free conscious.

At this ClubA Website there have been years of talking about what sin is. You know what the conclusions were. I don't need to rehash foregone conclusions.

 

"... infer that you have reached perfection and you are without sin until you fail."

Are you inferring that Sam Pipim had reached a state of perfection as he violated the 7th commandment of the decalogue when he misused the young lady in Africa and misused the five other student ladies in Andrews Uni. ?

Be ye perfect as your Father in heaven is perfect. What was Jesus thinking as He said this?

[Robert]

 

Be ye perfect as your Father in heaven is perfect. What was Jesus thinking as He said this?

 

I'm glad you brought this one up!  How perfect did Christ say that we need to be?  As perfect as God the Father.

 

With this in mind let's look at Matthew 5:1-48

 

I'll be back...

[Robert]

I'm glad you brought this one up!  How perfect did Christ say that we need to be?  As perfect as God the Father.

 

With this in mind let's look at Matthew 5:1-48

 

I'll be back...

 

 

Matthew 5:1 When Jesus saw the crowds, he went up the mountain; and after he sat down, his disciples came to him. 2 Then he began to speak, and taught them, saying:...7:28  And when Jesus finished these sayings, the crowds were astonished at his teaching, 29 for he taught them as one who had authority, and not as their scribes.

 

To give a better picture of the context I quoted where Jesus started and finished teaching "the crowds" (which included the disciples).  From this we can get the exact context.

 

These crowds were mainly Jews who had been taught by the Scribes and Pharisees (the teachers of the law).  You know what they taught? salvation by the keeping of the law (the Torah).  Keep this in mind.

 

Let's now go to Matt 5:17 "Think not that I have come to abolish the law (Torah) and the prophets; I have come not to abolish them but to fulfil them. 18 For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the law until all is accomplished. 19 Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

 

In other words the scribes and Pharisees taught you that you must keep the law to gain eternal life, but I am here to tell you that you must keep it better than these full time law keepers.

 

That's astonishing when you sit back and think about it.  Then Christ ends, in verse 48, saying "You must be perfect, just as your heavenly Father is perfect."

 

Was Jesus trying to make it impossible for the Jews to gain heaven through their law performance?

 

The answer is yes.....

 

The reason?  We must read the verses between 21 and 48 to understand it.

[Robert]

I want go over everything, just a few:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

21 "You have heard that it was said to the men of old, 'You shall not kill; and whoever kills shall be liable to judgment.' 22 But I say to you that every one who is angry with his brother shall be liable to judgment....

 

If you are angry at someone, you are a murderer in the eyes of the spirit of God's law.

 

27 "You have heard that it was said, 'You shall not commit adultery.' 28 But I say to you that every one who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 

 

If you look at a woman in lust you've committed adultery in the eyes of the law.

 

What's the point?

 

All these sins occur at the thought level.  Hence the law demands that your thoughts must be perfect if you are to gain heaven by your performance.  Your thoughts and motives must be perfect, including your outward performance.

 

In a nutshell, you must be as perfect as God is perfect!

[JoeMo]

So Robert,

Are you trying to show :

1.How perfectly we need to keep the law to be saved, or

2. How futile earning salvation by law-keeping is; and how much we need a Savior?

 

Your posts in different forums appear to me to contradict one another.  Or maybe I'm just dense.

[Woody]

I suspect it is both #1 and #2 JoeMo.

In order to be saved .... the law must be perfectly kept.

The only answer to the law .... is a Saviour.

[Robert]

So Robert,

Are you trying to show :

1.How perfectly we need to keep the law to be saved, or

2. How futile earning salvation by law-keeping is; and how much we need a Savior?

 

Your posts in different forums appear to me to contradict one another.  Or maybe I'm just dense.

#2

[Robert]

Most SDA should know the history of the GC of 1888, especially on "the law in Galatians". When the dust settled, Ellen White stated the following:

 

The law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith” (Galatians 3:24). In this scripture, the Holy Spirit through the apostle is speaking especially of the moral law." (1 Selected Messages Page 234)

 

What was the function of giving the law at Sinai?

 

1] As a method of salvation

 

2] As a tool to place the pride of men in the dust so he might be justified by faith?

 

Answer: # 2

 

Again, Ellen White:

 

What is justification by faith? It is the work of God in laying the glory of man in the dust, and doing for man that which it is not in his power to do for himself (i.e., saving him). When men see their own nothingness, they are prepared to be clothed with the righteousness of Christ....The righteousness of Christ, as a pure white pearl, has no defect, no stain, no guilt. This righteousness may be ours. Salvation, with its blood-bought, inestimable treasures, is the pearl of great price. The thought that the righteousness of Christ is imputed to us, not because of any merit on our part, but as a free gift from God, is a precious thought. The enemy of God and man is not willing that this truth should be clearly presented; for he knows that if the people receive it fully, his power will be broken. http://text.egwwritings.org/publication.php?pubtype=Book&bookCode=FLB&pagenumber=111

 

So the issue or question, back in 1888, was what law "was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith"?

 

Jones & Waggoner said the moral law.  Ellen White agreed with them.  Most of the SDA church then strongly opposed them.

 

Let's look at this using the context of Gal chapter 3....

 

 

 

 

[Robert]

 

Let's look at this using the context of Gal chapter 3....

 

Gal 3:17...The law, introduced 430 years later, does not set aside the covenant previously established by God (with Abraham) and thus do away with the promise. 18 For if the inheritance depends on the law, then it no longer depends on a promise; but God in his grace gave it to Abraham through a promise. 19 What, then, was the purpose of the law?

 

What law?  The moral law!

 

 

It (the law of Ten Commandments) was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. The law was put into effect through angels by a mediator. 20 A mediator, however, does not represent just one party; but God is one. 21 Is the law, therefore, opposed to the promises of God? Absolutely not! For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law. 22 But the Scripture declares that the whole world is a prisoner of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe. 23 Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. 24 So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. 25 Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law (the law of Ten Commandments).

 

Why?

 

Paul asks this question in Romans 7:7

 

Is the law sin? (i.e.,  is it bad) Certainly not! Indeed I would not have known what sin was except through the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, "Do not covet."

 

So the law has a very important role in our salvation.  It points out that we are wretched sinners incapable of saving ourselves and thus it causes us to flee to Christ so that we might be delivered from under it and stand justified by faith!

[Robert]

Does this mean I can live like a devil because I'm not under law?

 

No!

 

Rom 7:6

 

6 But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code (obey & live, disobey & die).

 

Now here's the new way of the Spirit:

 

2 Cor 3:17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 18 And all of us, with unveiled faces, seeing the glory of the Lord (His goodness...His agape)  as though reflected in a mirror, are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another; for this comes from the Lord, the Spirit.

[aka]

Salvation is all of grace and not of works, but its fruitage is obedience to the commandments of God.

 

Woody said in shoutbox:

I am not sure I understand what you are saying. All I know is that I am saved but I continue to sin.

 

I answered:

Shall we start with inspirational texts?

 

John 8, Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin.”

 

Hebrews 10, If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left,

 

1John 3, Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

 

1John 3:6 Whosoever abideth in Him sinneth not...

 

1John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

 

1John 5 All unrighteousness is sin

 

1John 5 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

 

 

Woody, what law is being referred to here in the text?

Woody, how do you know you have sinned?

Woody, how do you know you are saved from eternal condemnation?...

[Woody]

I am a slave to sin because I keep sinning.

I am a saved slave because I accept the death of jesus on my behalf.

And it is HIS life that is judged ..... not mine.

The record of my life is covered by the blood of Jesus.

[JoeMo]

"Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves,you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness?   But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed, and, having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness." (Romans 6: 16-18)

 

This verse doesn't guarantee that we will never sin again; but it does state that we don't have to sin anymore.  That being said, I fail miserably at my own "sin management.  On the other hand, "If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us" (1 John 1:8).  This tells me that none of us have ever been sinless.