From what has the believer been saved?

[teresaq]

I've often 'run' to Christ and victory was not assured. Some issues .... I've prayed for years for the outpouring of the Holy Spirit in my life. And the request was denied. I long for the outpouring of the Holy Spirit. But how and when it is applied is up to God and not up to my prayers. God is in control. Not my wants and prayers.

I can only speak for myself. I had to change how I was praying, how I was thinking and dealing with my issues. I have been granted victory in some areas, but haven't quite switched over to the new way of thinking in other areas and am still struggling with those issues, and believe me I am struggling! LOL For me it is learning a new way to think. I am utilizing the 12 step groups and A.T. Jones (and Waggoner) on RbF, which according to my understanding, simplified, is living by the promises of God, believing them, not trying to do it myself and if there is anything else I am not thinking of at the moment.

 

 

Our struggles can be complicated and often we need to just sit down, calm down, and talk to God, which is one of those that hadn't come to mind at the moment. I'm honest about how I feel. (I hate her! for example) I don't try to whitewash what I feel, just admit to God what I feel. Amazing how quickly it then disappears, tho.   I think JoeMo touched on the essential part tho. A part I think we often forget. God does want to deliver us from our sins, I believe, but for our good more than for His, for our happiness more than anything else....

 

But above all He wants to hang out with us...and that is hard for me to learn. I get caught up in the feelings of the moment, of the "trying to", that I forget to stop and just talk to God about it. I think that is building relationship, isn't it? Talking to Him the same way I would a trusted human?

[LifeHiscost]

 

 why Someone as awesome as God would care about some slime-dog like me.

Sanctification is the work of a life time. Justification works in an instant. Both are gifts of God. One saves us from the penalty of sin. The other saves us from sinful conduct. Temptation is not sin. Yielding to sinful temptation is sin. When one reaches out to to Jesus for deliverance and has never experienced deliverance from the sin they wish deliverance from, perhaps asking for faith to believe God for what He says He will do would not be inappropriate.

 

18The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,

19To preach the acceptable year of the Lord. 20And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him. 21And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears. Luke 4

 

God is Love! Jesus saves!

[Robert]

I think you're getting lust confused with temptation.  Temptation is recognizing the beauty of women and maybe beginning to react to it.  Lust is giving into that temptation and spending 30 minutes imagining "things" after you notice them.  The writer of Hebrews said that Jesus was tempted in all ways as we are.  If that's true, He's a big boy and understands the potential power of alluring women and how men react to them.

If you lust for 1ms you've sinned.  BTW, Jesus never sinned even by a thought. 

 

Also, according to Christ, if you hate someone you've murdered them in the eyes of the law.

 

On the cross Jesus had every right to defend Himself, come down and save Himself.  He had the right to defend Himself with lethal force, yet not for a moment did Christ hate His murderers.  Instead He chose to die eternally so they might have heaven in His place.  That's agape and agape is the fulfillment of the law.

[Woody]

LHC .... you indicate that Sanctification is the work of a lifetime. Yet, I've never met anyone who has achieved sanctification during their lifetime.

[JoeMo]

Teresaq,

Your previous few posts have spoken to my heart,   As I have been contemplating the meaning of Yom Kippur, I have been considering the same things you speak of.  Have I experienced victory in every area of personal weakness?  No; but I seem to be experiencing more frequently than I was trying to do it on my own.  The more time I spend time "hanging out" with my Father and His Son,the less time I spend obsessing over my pet issues.

 

When Paul says to pray continually, could He just mean "hang out" with God?

[Robert]

... so long as life shall last, there will be no stopping place, no point which we can reach and say, I have fully attained.  {AA 560.3}

 

Woody, this is response to your post, # 56

 

Sanctification is simply growing or maturing under grace while resting in the finished work of Christ.  Note, according to EGW, that perfection (i.e., having fully attained) will not happen.  Perhaps that is why Paul  said, "All have sinned AND FALL SHORT OF THE GLORY OF GOD". (see Rom 3:23)  

 

That last part ("and fall short") is in the continuous, present tense.  That means that as mature as one might become he or she hasn't even come close to matching the righteousness of Christ.  Therefore, what really matters in terms of salvation is "the imputed righteousness of Christ"

 

Ellen White:

 

"The danger has been presented to me again and again of entertaining, as a people, false ideas of justification by faith. I have been shown for years that Satan would work in a special manner to confuse the mind on this point. The law of God has been largely dwelt upon and has been presented to congregations, almost as destitute of the knowledge of Jesus Christ and His relation to the law as was the offering of Cain. I have been shown that many have been kept from the faith because of the mixed, confused ideas of salvation, because the ministers have worked in a wrong manner to reach hearts. The point that has been urged upon my mind for years is the imputed righteousness of Christ. I have wondered that this matter was not made the subject of discourses in our churches throughout the land, when the matter has been kept so constantly urged upon me, and I have made it the subject of nearly every discourse and talk that I have given to the people." [F&W 18]

 

The imputed righteousness of Christ is what saves.  It is dependent only upon the righteousness of Christ obtained and finished 2000 years ago.

 

The imparted righteousness of Christ (what He does in us as we submit) proves our faith, not our righteousness.

[LifeHiscost]

 

The imparted righteousness of Christ (what He does in us as we submit) prove our faith, not our righteousness.

I have found that when I rely upon the cleansing blood of Jesus as my reason for feeling secure in the presence of the Father, I sense no need to prove my fitness to others or to prove their unfitness for heaven. Studying the Word and paying heed to it in it's entirety gives one the peace that passes understanding.

 

4Make me know Your ways, O LORD; Teach me Your paths. 5Lead me in Your truth and teach me, For You are the God of my salvation; For You I wait all the day. 6Remember, O LORD, Your compassion and Your lovingkindnesses, For they have been from of old.…Psalms 25

 

God is Love! Jesus saves!

[Robert]

I have found that when I rely upon the cleansing blood of Jesus as my reason for feeling secure in the presence of the Father, I sense no need to prove my fitness to others or to prove their unfitness for heaven. Studying the Word and paying heed to it in it's entirety gives one the peace that passes understanding.

 

You will never find peace through your growth.  You may be thankful to get beyond certain besetting sins, but at the end of the day that will not give you assurance.  Peace with God comes through justification by faith.  Here's Paul:

 

Romans 5:1 "Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand."

[Robert]

And don't forget Ellen White because she agrees with Paul:

 

Perfection through our own good works we can never attain. The soul who sees Jesus by faith, repudiates his own righteousness. He sees himself as incomplete (even though growing in grace), his repentance insufficient, his strongest faith but feebleness, his most costly sacrifice as meager, and he sinks in humility at the foot of the cross. But a voice speaks to him from the oracles of God's word. In amazement he hears the message, "Ye are complete in him." (that's the imputed righteousness of Christ) Now all is at rest in the soul (because you have peace through justification by faith). No longer must he strive to find some worthiness in himself, some meritorious deed by which to gain the favor of God {ST, 2:497}. 

[Tom Wetmore]

LHC .... you indicate that Sanctification is the work of a lifetime. Yet, I've never met anyone who has achieved sanctification during their lifetime.

 

It seems that the one thing that renders a person sinless and incapable of sinning ever again is death.  Dead men do not sin. As long as there is life there is hope. And as long as there is life, there is the possibility of sin.

[Robert]

And don't forget Ellen White because she agrees with Paul:

 

Perfection through our own good works we can never attain. The soul who sees Jesus by faith, repudiates his own righteousness. He sees himself as incomplete (even though growing in grace), his repentance insufficient, his strongest faith but feebleness, his most costly sacrifice as meager, and he sinks in humility at the foot of the cross. But a voice speaks to him from the oracles of God's word. In amazement he hears the message, "Ye are complete in him." (that's the imputed righteousness of Christ) Now all is at rest in the soul (because you have peace through justification by faith). No longer must he strive to find some worthiness in himself, some meritorious deed by which to gain the favor of God {ST, 2:497}. 

Knowing that you are complete in Christ actually makes room for Christ's imparted righteousness because you have now given up on the idea of salvation through your works.  Only as we rest in Christ, of which the Sabbath is a sign, can we progress in our Christian walk.

[LifeHiscost]

You will never find peace through your growth.  You may be thankful to get beyond certain besetting sins, but at the end of the day that will not give you assurance.  Peace with God comes through justification by faith.  Here's Paul:

 

Romans 5:1 "Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand."

And that is a promise you wouldn't have been able to find assurance in if you hadn't been reading the Word to access it. The fact that we grow in grace to find assurance comes from a constant stream of life giving principles.

 

13Jesus answered and said to her, "Everyone who drinks of this water will thirst again; 14but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him shall never thirst; but the water that I will give him will become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life." John 4

 

True peace and assurance does not come from stagnant sources.

 

God is Love! Jesus saves!

[LifeHiscost]

 And as long as there is life, there is the possibility of sin.

You're talking about as long as we live in our fallen nature I'm assuming.

 

…10For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. 11Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus. 12Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts,…Rom 6

 

God is Love!

[Robert]

You're talking about as long as we live in our fallen nature I'm assuming.

 

…10For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. 11Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus. 12Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts,…Rom 6

 

God is Love!

Considering or reckoning one dead to sin is not the same as being in reality dead to sin.  As John states, "If we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves."  Growth?  Yes!  Perfection?  No!

[teresaq]

When Paul says to pray continually, could He just mean "hang out" with God?

 

I think so, JoeMo. Maybe that is what "by beholding we become" means to some degree?

 

 

I have found that when I rely upon the cleansing blood of Jesus as my reason for feeling secure in the presence of the Father, I sense no need to prove my fitness to others or to prove their unfitness for heaven. Studying the Word and paying heed to it in it's entirety gives one the peace that passes understanding.

There is a peace and joy seeing God work in us both to will and to do, isn't there, LHC?

[teresaq]

It seems that the one thing that renders a person sinless and incapable of sinning ever again is death.  Dead men do not sin. As long as there is life there is hope. And as long as there is life, there is the possibility of sin.

Or glorification at the second coming. But until then we are certainly capable of sinning as I understand it. We never know when the right temptation will come along at the right weak moment.

[Woody]

It seems that the one thing that renders a person sinless and incapable of sinning ever again is death.  Dead men do not sin.

 

This is SO true. And something all of us need to realize.

[LifeHiscost]

 

 

There is a peace and joy seeing God work in us both to will and to do, isn't there, LHC?

Amen! And then I claim this promise to maintain.

 

47and that all this assembly may know that the LORD does not deliver by sword or by spear; for the battle is the LORD'S  1 Samuel 17

 

God is Love! Jesus Saves!

[LifeHiscost]

Considering or reckoning one dead to sin is not the same as being in reality dead to sin.  As John states, "If we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves."  Growth?  Yes!  Perfection?  No!

9And He has said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for power is perfected in weakness." Most gladly, therefore, I will rather boast about my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may dwell in me. 10Therefore I am well content with weaknesses, with insults, with distresses, with persecutions, with difficulties, for Christ's sake; for when I am weak, then I am strong.  2 Cor 12

 

God is Love! Jesus saves!

[Robert]

"There should be less proud self-seeking, less self-importance. When the members of the church are clothed with humility, when they put from them self-esteem and self-seeking, when they seek constantly to do God’s will—then they will work together in harmony." [5T 479]

 

BTW, the law of God doesn't require "less" self-seeking, it requires absolutely no self-seeking.  The law of God demands that we love our neighbors as we naturally love ourselves.  This can be seen in the following:

 

1 cor 10:24 "Let no man seek his own, but every man another's wealth."

 

What is Paul stating? Seeking our own wealth is the essence of iniquity (our bent).  Opposite of self-seeking is living for another's wealth, which is harmony with the law of God.  Hence there's no self-seeking in God's agape.  That's why Jesus, in this world, had nothing (see Luke 9:58).  Jesus lived not, thought not of Himself. 

 

Since none of us are measuring up to this self-emptying love,  Christ had to legally deliver us from under law to under grace.  See Romans 7:6

 

"But now, by dying (in Christ) to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code."

[joeb]

Good Point Robert. I've not seen anyone saved from sin. But I've met many saved from the condemnation of sin.

Really?  You've never seen anyone's life radically changed by their relationship with God?  Just because sanctification isn't instantaneous like justification is, doesn't mean we aren't saved from sin.  

 

Take, for instance, me.  I was an addict before I met Christ.  I craved drugs.  I relished hatred.  I was deep into self-destruction.  When I met Christ all that changed.  Not everything changed all at once, and I'm not claiming perfection now, but Christ in my life has made a radical change in my life.  Has Christ saved me from sin?  You bet He has.  He has made changes in my that would have been impossible otherwise.  Just because He's not done working with me yet doesn't mean He hasn't saved me from sin.  

 

To deny that Christ saves us from sin is to place ourselves on the side of those Paul talks about when he says there are those who make a show of religion but deny the power thereof.  

[Woody]

Perhaps it is semantics then. But to me 'saved from sin' would mean you no longer sin. Instead - Personally - I SIN.

But I am saved from the death sentence of that sin.

[Robert]

 I was an addict before I met Christ.  I craved drugs.  I relished hatred.  I was deep into self-destruction.  When I met Christ all that changed.

 

Yes, and that's the fruit of accepting Christ's righteousness obtained 2000 years ago, but you aren't free from iniquity (your bent).  Hence you had to be delivered from under law.  If you were under law you would be condemned. Why?  None are living Christ's selfless life of only agape love.

 

Here's Ellen White:

 

As Joshua was pleading before the Angel, so the remnant church, with brokenness of heart and earnest faith, will plead for pardon and deliverance through Jesus their Advocate. They are fully conscious of the sinfulness of their lives, they see their weakness and unworthiness; and as they look upon themselves, they are ready to despair. The tempter stands by to accuse them, as he stood by to resist Joshua. He points to their filthy garments, their defective characters. He presents their weakness and folly, their sins of ingratitude, their unlikeness to Christ, which has dishonored their Redeemer. He endeavors to affright the soul with the thought that their case is hopeless, that the stain of their defilement will never be washed away. He hopes so to destroy their faith that they will yield to his temptations, turn from their allegiance to God, and receive the mark of the beast. RH January 9, 1908, par. 2

Satan urges before God his accusations against them, declaring that they have by their sins forfeited the divine protection, and claiming the right to destroy them as transgressors. He pronounces them just as deserving as himself of exclusion from the favor of God. “Are these,” he says, “the people who are to take my place in heaven, and the place of the angels who united with me? While they profess to obey the law of God, have they kept its precepts? Have they not been lovers of self more than of God? Have they not placed their own interests above his service? Have they not loved the things of the world? Look at the sins which have marked their lives. Behold their selfishness, their malice, their hatred toward one another.” RH January 9, 1908, par. 3

The people of God have been in many respects very faulty. Satan has an accurate knowledge of the sins which he has tempted them to commit, and he presents these in the most exaggerated light, declaring, “Will God banish me and my angels from his presence, and yet reward those who have been guilty of the same sins? Thou canst not do this, O Lord, in justice. Thy throne will not stand in righteousness and judgment. Justice demands that sentence be pronounced against them.” RH January 9, 1908, par. 4

But while the followers of Christ have sinned, they have not given themselves to the control of evil. They have put away their sins, and have sought the Lord in humility and contrition, and the divine Advocate pleads in their behalf. He who has been most abused by their ingratitude, who knows their sin, and also their repentance, declares, “The Lord rebuke thee, O Satan. I gave my life for these souls. They are graven upon the palms of my hands.” RH January 9, 1908, par. 5

[LifeHiscost]

But while the followers of Christ have sinned, they have not given themselves to the control of evil. They have put away their sins, and have sought the Lord in humility and contrition, and the divine Advocate pleads in their behalf. He who has been most abused by their ingratitude, who knows their sin, and also their repentance, declares, “The Lord rebuke thee, O Satan. I gave my life for these souls. They are graven upon the palms of my hands.” RH January 9, 1908, par. 5

Notice it says they have put away their sins.

The only thing we're taking back to the heavenly home is the character that Jesus gives us, and I'm happy to concur with Joeb's assessment of his deliverance. Praise God for those who no longer practice, nor even desire to practice what they once found difficult to resist but no longer find any desire to follow in that path.

 

…19"For through the Law I died to the Law, so that I might live to God. 20"I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me. Galatians 2

 

5"No man will be able to stand before you all the days of your life. Just as I have been with Moses, I will be with you; I will not fail you or forsake you. Joshua 1

 

15According to the Lord's word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.

16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 

17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.  1 Thess 4

 

God is Love! Jesus saves!

[aka]

Matthew 1:21 "And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name JESUS, for He will save His people from their sins."

 

Contingent upon the death of our Savior on the cross, God has already saved us by His grace BEFORE time began:

 

2 Timothy 1:9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began

The saving was NOT according to our works: as in we did something like "believe in Him". 

We were NOT yet existent when God saved us by his grace.

 

Excellent, Samie.

Now you've got the message right. This is where the joy of salvation comes in for the believer on a daily basis.

 

Contingent on the resurrection from the tomb, did the death of Christ cover our debts to God, as we called on the shed blood to cleanse us from sin. Forensically we are justified because of our Lord's sacrifical deed. 

 

What is the crux of amazement is knowing he had imbued us with His Spirit to enpower us to overcome temptation to sin again. The power of having to sin has been broken. We can certainly have victory over sinful habits and traits that bound us around like a chain to our assigned demon fallen angel.