From what has the believer been saved?

[Robert]

As for your claim that perfecting a character, through God's grace, that is fitness for Heaven being Catholic doctrine- Catholic claims for or against any doctrine are no evidence for or against the truth of Bible Doctrine. What does the bible say should be your concern.

Is Peter , too, in error when he calls character development as essential for Heaven?

2 Pet 1:5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue....

 

 

I get your hint, but it is non-biblical.  It's Roman Catholic.

 

You can't not add to Christ's finished work.  You can experience it....You can experience what is already true of you "in Christ", but you can't add!

 

Do you realize that "in Christ" you already stand "justified", "sanctified" and "glorified" (redeemed)?

 

1 Cor 1:30 But by His doing (God the Father) you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, our justification and sanctification, and redemption, 31 so that, just as it is written, "LET HIM WHO BOASTS, BOAST IN THE LORD."

[Robert]

The intercession of Christ in man's behalf in the sanctuary above is as essential to the plan of salvation as was His death upon the cross. By His death He began that work which after His resurrection He ascended to complete in heaven..--The Great Controversy, p. 489.

 

 

 

The Sacrifice of Christ as an atonement for sin is the great truth around which all other truths cluster. In order to be rightly understood and appreciated, every truth in the Word of God, from Genesis to Revelation, must be studied in the light that streams from the cross of Calvary. I present before you the great, grand monument of mercy and regeneration, salvation and redemption,—the Son of God uplifted on the cross. This is to be the foundation of every discourse given by our ministers. GW 315

[LifeHiscost]

I get your hint, but it is non-biblical.  It's Roman Catholic.

 

You can't not add to Christ's finished work.  You can experience it....You can experience what is already true of you "in Christ", but you can't add!

 

Do you realize that "in Christ" you already stand "justified", "sanctified" and "glorified" (redeemed)?

 

1 Cor 1:30 But by His doing (God the Father) you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, our justification and sanctification, and redemption, 31 so that, just as it is written, "LET HIM WHO BOASTS, BOAST IN THE LORD."

What Jackson quoted was direct from the Word and not accepting it will not make it any less true. I'm satisfied the adding as stated, is consistent with this below. The fact that they appear to oppose each other only reveals our inability to understand correctly, not solved by discrediting one of the principles.

 

12So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling; 13for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.…Phil 2

 

God is love! Jesus saves!

[Robert]

What God did to you, in Christ, is meritorious.  What Christ does for you is not meritorious.  It is demonstrative.  What God did for you two thousand years ago in Christ is what qualifies you for heaven.  What God does in you today does not contribute one iota towards your ticket to heaven.  It is simply evidence that you have received Christ.  It is proof that Christ is dwelling in you.  It is a means of witnessing but never a greater ticket to heaven.

 

So when you pray, “Dear Jesus, help me to be good that I may go to heaven,” you are contradicting the truth as it is in Christ.  And God comes to you and says, “You fool, don’t you know that righteousness is already yours in Christ?  What are you praying for?”  Never ask God to help you be good so that you can go to heaven.  He will never answer that prayer because, if He does, He is contradicting His own gift, Jesus Christ.  Yes, He wants to live in you so that He can witness His life to the world.  What Christ does in you is for the purpose of witnessing.  It is a purpose of proving that you are already righteous in Christ.  It does not add one iota towards your ticket to heaven.  That is already finished. 

[Robert]

 

12So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.…Phil 2

 

"Obey" what?  

 

If the law then why were you delivered from under the law?

 

If you think you can work out your salvation through your law performance then you must live Christ's life in every detail.  There must be no self-love in your life...no self-seeking...no self-interests.  You must live a life of agape 100% with no mistakes.

 

Paul is referring to "obeying the gospel".

 

Romans 10:15 As it is written: "How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace, Who bring glad tidings of good things!" 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our report?" 17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

[LifeHiscost]

"Obey" what?  

 

If the law then why were you delivered from under the law?

 

If you think you can work out your salvation through your law performance then you must live Christ's life in every detail.  There must be no self-love in your life...no self-seeking...no self-interests.  You must live a life of agape 100% with no mistakes.

 

Paul is referring to "obeying the gospel".

 

Romans 10:15 As it is written: "How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace, Who bring glad tidings of good things!" 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our report?" 17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

 

 

"You fool, don’t you know that righteousness is already yours in Christ?"

 

While I can accept much of what you have quoted, I would still like to suggest you paint a partial picture of God's willingness to share the joy of accomplishment  as He grants His children shared efforts as members of His body. Sometimes it can be confusing as we read His will, to think we as individuals are only lifeless lumps, without any redeeming value granted of our own. OTOH this comment by the apostle Paul begs to differ with that assessment.

 

…6For I am already being poured out as a drink offering, and the time of my departure has come. 7I have fought the good fight, I have finished the course, I have kept the faith; 8in the future there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day; and not only to me, but also to all who have loved His appearing.

 

And by your comment above, you put yourself in a bad position.

 

22...whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire....Math 5

 

…8But we know that the Law is good, if one uses it lawfully, 9realizing the fact that law is not made for a righteous person, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers 10and immoral men and homosexuals and kidnappers and liars and perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound teaching,…1 Timothy

 

And of course, all of that is a result of having been saved.

 

With all that said, we who till live under a measure of freedom as a result of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, for as I said IOW,

 

have a thankful Thanksgiving.

 

13I can do all things through Him who strengthens me....Phil 4     …4But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,…Ephesians 2

 

God is Love! Jesus saves!

[Robert]

....I have fought the good fight, I have finished the course, I have kept the faith;

 

 

The fight isn't perfection; the fight is keeping the faith.  We are saved...we are being saved and we will ultimately be saved if we keep the faith firm until the end.  

[Robert]

And by your comment above, you put yourself in a bad position.

 

22...whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire....Math 5

 

Likewise, if you are angry at someone you've murdered them in the eyes of the law.  

 

"Matt 5:21 You have heard that the ancients were told, 'YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT MURDER ' and'Whoever commits murder shall be liable to the court.' 22 "But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court....

[LifeHiscost]

The fight isn't perfection; the fight is keeping the faith.  We are saved...we are being saved and we will ultimately be saved if we keep the faith firm until the end.  

 

…17Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself. 18But someone may well say, "You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works."

…19You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder. 20But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless? 21Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?……25In the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way? 26For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead....James 2

 

God is Love! Jesus saves! 

[Robert]

…17 Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself. 18 But someone may well say, "You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works."

The context is about works of faith pertaining to Abraham and Rahab.

 

What did Abraham do that was in accordance with the law?

 

What did Rahab do that was accordance with the law?

[LifeHiscost]

The context is about works of faith pertaining to Abraham and Rahab.

 

What did Abraham do that was in accordance with the law?

 

What did Rahab do that was accordance with the law?

Methinks Robert is only about Robert is right, not about what sayeth the scripture (Truth)

 

God is Love!  Jesus saves! 

[Robert]

Methinks Robert is only about Robert is right, not about what sayeth the scripture (Truth)

 

God is Love!  Jesus saves! 

 

Are you reverting to personal attacks now?  

 

Why not answer my questions?

 

What did Abraham do that was in accordance with the law?

 

What did Rahab do that was accordance with the law?

 

[Robert]

  James 2:21 Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did.

 

 25 In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute (present tense) considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction?

 

 

Is not killing and lying against God's law?  Further more isn't adultery against God's law?

 

Obviously the answer is yes!

 

Abraham was willing to kill Isaac.  So his deed was technically out of harmony with the letter of the law.

 

And Rahab, when she was justified by her works, was still a prostitute.  Furthermore she lied about the spies.  Two things the law of God definitely condemns.

 

Clearly these works are works of faith and not works of the law.

 

So James is speaking of works of faith.

 

Paul on the other hand says, in Romans 3:27, "For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from the works of the law."

[joeb]

Thanks for the advice Joeb, but many times I just post to give an opposing view to what I consider scriptural error. If Robert disagrees so be it. I just want other contributors or lurkers to this site to have an opportunity to read an opposing view.

I understand.  I do the same thing.  I just didn't know if you "knew" Robert from previous experience.

[LifeHiscost]

  Furthermore she lied about the spies.  Two things the law of God definitely condemns.

 

The ninth commandment is not about lying of itself, which is not a sin. Bearing false witness against your neighbor is the sin, which she did not do. When we live our lives short of the glory of God and profess that we are without blame, then we are bearing false witness, and if it doesn't hurt anyone it isn't a sin. OTOH fabricating a falsehood could potentially hurt someone if they were to act on the assumption the truth was told. So don't bear false witness to hurt someone, which is the sin.

 

God is Love! Jesus saves!

[Robert]

The ninth commandment is not about lying of itself, which is not a sin. Bearing false witness against your neighbor is the sin, which she did not do. When we live our lives short of the glory of God and profess that we are without blame, then we are bearing false witness, and if it doesn't hurt anyone it isn't a sin. OTOH fabricating a falsehood could potentially hurt someone if they were to act on the assumption the truth was told. So don't bear false witness to hurt someone, which is the sin.

 

God is Love! Jesus saves!

 

[LifeHiscost]

4One day Jesus told a story in the form of a parable to a large crowd that had gathered from many towns to hear him: 5“A farmer went out to plant his seed. As he scattered it across his field, some seed fell on a footpath, where it was stepped on, and the birds ate it. 6Other seed fell among rocks. It began to grow, but the plant soon wilted and died for lack of moisture. 7Other seed fell among thorns that grew up with it and choked out the tender plants. 8Still other seed fell on fertile soil. This seed grew and produced a crop that was a hundred times as much as had been planted!” When he had said this, he called out, “Anyone with ears to hear should listen and understand.”

9His disciples asked him what this parable meant. 10He replied, “You are permitted to understand the secrets^a of the Kingdom of God. But I use parables to teach the others so that the Scriptures might be fulfilled:

‘When they look, they won’t really see.

When they hear, they won’t understand.’^b

11“This is the meaning of the parable: The seed is God’s word. 12The seeds that fell on the footpath represent those who hear the message, only to have the devil come and take it away from their hearts and prevent them from believing and being saved. 13The seeds on the rocky soil represent those who hear the message and receive it with joy. But since they don’t have deep roots, they believe for a while, then they fall away when they face temptation. 14The seeds that fell among the thorns represent those who hear the message, but all too quickly the message is crowded out by the cares and riches and pleasures of this life. And so they never grow into maturity. 15And the seeds that fell on the good soil represent honest, good-hearted people who hear God’s word, cling to it, and patiently produce a huge harvest....Luke 8

 

God is Love! Jesus saves!

[Robert]

.... if it [lying] doesn't hurt anyone it isn't a sin. ...

 

 

So little white lies are just fine?

[LifeHiscost]

So little white lies are just fine?

During the Nazi holocaust, when the enemy armies were invading the home of Corrie Tenboom's father's house, and the enemies were knocking on the floor and walls in order to determine vacant spaces where Jews might find hiding places from the captors, Betsy, Corrie's sister was asked by one of the soldiers if there was anyone under the kitchen table (which in fact there were under a floor rug and trapdoor), and Betsy, in a voice response to the German soldier intimating how could he be so stupid as to think that could possibly be, she misled him, as a result of his own pride, to forgo knocking on the house floor at that spot, thereby saving the lives of the many individuals that were under there at the time.

 

A little white lie or a large bearing a false witness? You decide. I'd also like to know how you are going to fare when you are asked to accept the mark of the beast or remain faithful to the seal of God when under pressure?

 

…27"What I tell you in the darkness, speak in the light; and what you hear whispered in your ear, proclaim upon the housetops. 28"Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.....Matt 10

 

God is Love! Jesus saves! 

[Gregory Matthews]

Life, it is strange that you would like to know how someone else is going to fare when asked to accept the mark of the beast, as you put it.

 

Why would you like to know?

 

That is a puzzle to me.

 

I cannot imagine why you would consider it to by your business to know.

 

You like to cite Scripture.  Well, you probably recall the time when Christ would asked about the future of a disciple and the response was to the effect that it was not a point of concern to the person asking.

[aka]

Gregory, I support and appreciate your messages and moderation in this ClubA. 

 

Right off as I started reading this topic thread it came to mind John 21. Just like you mentioned.

 

Peter turned and saw that the disciple whom Jesus loved was following them.                                (This was the one who had leaned back against Jesus at the supper and had said, “Lord, who is going to betray you?”)                                                                                                                                              

When Peter saw him, he asked, “Lord, what about him?”

Jesus answered, “If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you?                                 You must follow me.”

 

Because of this, the rumor spread among the believers that this disciple would not die.

But Jesus did not say that he would not die; he only said, “If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you?”

 

This is the disciple who testifies to these things and who wrote them down.                                               We know that his testimony is true.

[Gregory Matthews]

Yentyl:  Thank you for your kind words.

 

As to Moderation:  We Moderators have the ability to moderate in just about any thread in Club Adventist.  However, under our general operating rules, we only exercise that power in the threads to which we have been assigned.  The majority of threads in CA have not been assigned.  Those unassigned threads are moderated by the Administrators.

 

So, when you see my comments in threads that I do not moderate, I am acting as I would act if I were not a Moderator.

 

Over the years, my approach to moderation has changed in some ways.  Some years ago I was a Moderator here.  At that time I was more active in removing objectionable content.  [NOTE:  I always stated that I had done so.]    Presently, I am much less willing to edit what others have written.  Rather I am prone to respond directly to what has been written.

 

Well, now you all know.

 

[aka]

       

Yep, now we know. 

Though I bet lots of us had already an inkling of what you meant.

 

 

 

[Robert]

During the Nazi holocaust, when the enemy armies were invading the home of Corrie Tenboom's father's house, and the enemies were knocking on the floor and walls in order to determine vacant spaces where Jews might find hiding places from the captors, Betsy, Corrie's sister was asked by one of the soldiers if there was anyone under the kitchen table (which in fact there were under a floor rug and trapdoor), and Betsy, in a voice response to the German soldier intimating how could he be so stupid as to think that could possibly be, she misled him, as a result of his own pride, to forgo knocking on the house floor at that spot, thereby saving the lives of the many individuals that were under there at the time.

 

.Gen 18:11Now Abraham and Sarah were old, advanced in age; Sarah was past childbearing. 12Sarah laughed to herself, saying, “After I have become old, shall I have pleasure, my lord being old also?” 13And the LORD said to Abraham, “Why did Sarah laugh, saying, ‘Shall I indeed bear a child, when I am so old?’ 14“Is anything too difficult for the LORD? At the appointed time I will return to you, at this time next year, and Sarah will have a son.” 15Sarah denied it however, saying, “I did not laugh”; for she was afraid. And He said, “No, but you did laugh.”

 

If some lies are harmless then why did "the Lord" go out of His way to correct Sarah?

[LifeHiscost]

Life, it is strange that you would like to know how someone else is going to fare when asked to accept the mark of the beast, as you put it.

 

Why would you like to know?

 

That is a puzzle to me.

 

I cannot imagine why you would consider it to by your business to know.

 

You like to cite Scripture.  Well, you probably recall the time when Christ would (was)asked about the future of a (different) disciple and the(Jesus') response was to the effect that it was not a point of concern to the person asking. (underlined edit mine LHC)

Good inquiry. After answering, I might ask you the same thing. I'm of the opinion if the inquiry from the inquisitor had been out of concern that the one inquired about would get all he deserved in rewards coming to him, Jesus answer may have been much different. Jesus also stated later, "When thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren."

 

As you are probably aware, just before Jesus comes the second time, there will only be two classes of people to meet Him. Those who look forward with fond expectancy to meet Jesus in peace, wholly excited at the deliverance  they anticipate from this evil world, for themselves and all others who have received Jesus as Lord of their lives, savior of their soul, and as a result of having accepted the seal of God.

And then there will be those, the vast majority of mankind as it was in the days of Noah, who will call for the rocks to fall on them, for fear of the wrath of the Lamb at His coming.

 

If one knows their enemy before that event, it might very well save a lot of difficulty one doesn't necessarily have to go through, and in following the instruction of the Word instead of fighting it tooth and nail when it comes up, spiritual strength not derived from one's own natural fallen nature, will accrue and grow to the glory of God. It will also have a tendency to keep one from feeling they must control every aspect of those who do not agree with them, fully aware that Jesus takes full responsibility for seeing that the seed sown on fertile soil, will grow until the harvest.

 

God is Love!  Jesus saves!