I know this is going to fly in the face of many people but, truth is truth.

February 9, 2015

Anyone who spends time reading and prayerfully studying the Scriptures, researching history and seeking God for insight will soon come to see a massive, worldwide religious system that has influenced much of what the people of God believe today. When God says the whole world is under the sway of the evil one, He wasn't kidding.

Let me point out a few things that have taken God's people by storm.

1. Sunday is not the Lord's day.

2. The Apostles and the early church never gathered on the first day.

3. Jesus didn't die on Good Friday and rise on Easter Sunday.

4. Jesus wasn't born on December 25th.

5. Easter is not a Christian holiday.

6. There is no immortal soul.

7. There is no eternal burning place under the earth called hell.

8. People don't die and go to heaven.

9. People don't die and go to hell.

10. The co-eternal, co-equal trinity God is man made.

People have been tortured and even put to death because of these above beliefs. I myself could be in danger of excommunication just for posting them.

Let us take the hand of God and allow Him to completely lead us out of Babylon.

February 9, 2015

Hi Scuba;

Of the 10 you posted, I am most interested in No.3. So while waiting for other forum members, can you tell me what is your take as to when the Lord died and resurrected?

February 9, 2015

While you did not say it in this way, what you said looks to me like the following is what you believe: Anyone who spends time in prayerfull study of the Bible will believe the following 10 items exactly as I believe them!

By the way, there are SDAs who believe exactly you do on all 10 of those items and have not been removed from membership. I will suggest that if you were to be removed, it would likely be for more reasons than you belief.

February 9, 2015

I agree with DGrimm...#'s 3 and 10 are up for discussion.

#3...I have heard lots of talk on differing opinions as to when Christ was crucified and buried. However, One cannot say He didn't come out of the tomb on the first day of the week. Scripture is pretty tight on that side of the issue.

#10...This issue has been debated for centuries...interestingly enough, the debate started in the years AFTER the apostles departed from the scene (from ~120 AD onward). Arianism has been around for 1800 years, and was no more the truth about how the Godhead was structured, than was the "Trinity" creed passed by the early church Councils to combat Arianism.

Blessings,

February 9, 2015

Like the other folks, I think #3 and #10 are still open for discussion. IMO #3 is not a salvational issue as long as one believes it was Jesus the Son of God and God in the flesh that died and resurrected.

I'm not so sure about #10. I'll take # 10 so far as to making me wonder about who I am praying to when I say Dear God ... Sometimes I pray "Dear Father", and an image of Jesus pops into my mind's eye.

February 9, 2015

I agree with DGrimm...#'s 3 and 10 are up for discussion.

#3...I have heard lots of talk on differing opinions as to when Christ was crucified and buried. However, One cannot say He didn't come out of the tomb on the first day of the week. Scripture is pretty tight on that side of the issue.
...

It would appear so, Ted, but I would venture to say I believe, as per Scriptures, Jesus did not come out of the tomb on the first day of the week, Sunday.

There is only one verse in the whole New Testament that tells us when Jesus resurrected. All the other resurrection-related verses merely tell us that when some of His disciples went to the sepulcher, they saw an already empty tomb. He has risen! But when?

This one verse tells us specifically when: "prwi> prw,th| sabba,tou" = early morning of the chief Sabbath, Saturday.

prwi = early morning

prw,th = chief

sabba,tou = Sabbath

Sadly, in order to perhaps give a semblance of Scriptual authority to Sundaykeeping, the Greek phrase "prwi> prw,th| sabba,tou" which literally is "early morning of the chief Sabbath, was instead translated into "early first day of the week" by translators who were themselves Sundaykeepers. The Greek for "week" is "hebdomas".

Mark 16:9 VAnasta.j de. prwi> prw,th| sabba,tou evfa,nh prw/ton Mari,a| th/| Magdalhnh/|( avfV h-j evkbeblh,kei e`pta. daimo,niaÅ

February 10, 2015

Hi Scuba;

Of the 10 you posted, I am most interested in No.3. So while waiting for other forum members, can you tell me what is your take as to when the Lord died and resurrected?

First of all one must understand how God said there would be a kingdom rising up in the last days that would change God's times with an (s) and law.

The times of God not only refers to the seventh day Sabbath, but all of God's appointed times. God gave us, in the book of Leviticus, a map of His plan seen in the Feast Days. These Feast Days map out God's timeline of events leading right up to end when God makes all things new. Today's church has thrown out God's map and has now lost its way. We now say Jesus died on Friday and rose on Sunday. This was done to promote and enforce Sunday as the Lord's day. Jesus did not die on Friday and raise on Sunday. Let me show you how God's people have been deceived by asking one question. When did Mary by the spices to anoint Jesus' body? Was it before the Sabbath or after the Sabbath? Most people will say before the Sabbath and they will use Luke 23:56.

Luke 23:56 Then they returned and prepared spices and fragrant oils. And they rested on the Sabbath according to the commandment.

Notice how Mary bought the spices and then rested on the Sabbath according to the commandment. This means Jesus died on Friday and rose on Sunday. People have been led to believe this because they don't know the plan of God. Now watch this. When did Mary by the spices to anoint Jesus' body? Was it before the Sabbath or after the Sabbath? Now read this verse carefully.

Mark 16:1 Now when the Sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James, and Salome bought spices, that they might come and anoint Him.

Did you notice how Mary bought the spices after the Sabbath had passed? The reason for this is because according to God's timeline there were two Sabbaths during the week of Jesus' crucifixion. One was the High Sabbath and the other was the seventh day Sabbath. The High Sabbath was the Sabbath that followed Passover. According to Leviticus, Passover was to be on the 14th of the month and the very next day (the 15th) was the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread. This day was a Sabbath but it wasn't a normal Sabbath because it only came once a year so it was called a High Sabbath.

John 19:31 Therefore, because it was the Preparation Day, that the bodies should not remain on the cross on the Sabbath (for that Sabbath was a high day), the Jews asked Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.

This Sabbath, in John 19:31, is not the seventh day Sabbath. Jesus was crucified on Wednesday (Passover) the next day (Thursday) was the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread. Mary could not buy the spices on this day because it was a Sabbath so she had to wait for the next day (Friday). She had to go out and buy the spices after the High Sabbath passed, she prepared them and by now the seventh day Sabbath was upon her so she rest on the seventh day Sabbath (Saturday) according to the commandment.

There is a lot more to cover but if you watch my video it will be a lot easier for you to follow.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6nwVHEk_wwM

February 10, 2015

Hi Scuba;

I can only praise God for guiding us to the same conclusion as to when our Lord was crucified and resurrected. I have a number of old posts in this forum relative to this issue.

February 10, 2015

Hi Scuba;

I can only praise God for guiding us to the same conclusion as to when our Lord was crucified and resurrected. I have a number of old posts in this forum relative to this issue.

I believe the water of truth relating to just about everything to do with God have been muddied. You really have to study a lot of things to clear up the water of truth. I believe if a child of God truly seeks God for truth, God will reveal it. When this happens you will find little pockets of like minded people popping up here and there. I can tell you that it's not easy when the water of truth begins to clear up because when it does it gets harder and harder to find fellowship. The majority of today's denominations are either worshiping the Beast or it's image. The image of the Beast is not the Beast but it looks just like because it believes and practices just about everything the Beast believes and practices.

This list are some of the foundational things the Beast believes and teaches even with force.

1. Sunday is not the Lord's day.

2. The Apostles and the early church never gathered on the first day.

3. Jesus didn't die on Good Friday and rise on Easter Sunday.

4. Jesus wasn't born on December 25th.

5. Easter is not a Christian holiday.

6. There is no immortal soul.

7. There is no eternal burning place under the earth called hell.

8. People don't die and go to heaven.

9. People don't die and go to hell.

10. The co-eternal, co-equal trinity God is man made.

Many denominations believe and teach these very same things and say they don't worship the Beast but they definitely worship the image of the Beast. This is why it is said: "But since Saturday, not Sunday, is specified in the Bible, isn't it curious that non-Catholics who profess to take their religion directly from the Bible and not the Church, observe Sunday instead of Saturday? Yes, of course, it is inconsistent; but this change was made about fifteen centuries before Protestantism was born, and by that time the custom was universally observed. They have continued the custom, even though it rests upon the authority of the Catholic Church and not upon an explicit text in the Bible. That observance remains as a reminder of the Mother Church from which the non-Catholic sects broke away - like a boy running away from home but still carrying in his pocket a picture of his mother or a lock of her hair. "The Faith of Millions"

February 12, 2015

1 John 5:7King James Version (KJV)

⁷For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

February 12, 2015

^{1John 5:7-8 NIV:}For there are three that testify: the Spirit, the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement.

1 John 5:7-8 ESV: For there are three that testify: the Spirit and the water and the blood; and these three agree.

1 John 5:7-8 NASB: For there are three that testify: the Spirit and the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement.

From NIV Translation footnote: Late manuscripts of the Vulgate testify in heaven: the Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one. And there are three that testify on earth: the (not found in any Greek manuscript before the fourteenth century)

February 12, 2015

Correct. Not a good verse to attempt to prove the Trinity.

February 12, 2015

People have been tortured and even put to death because of these above beliefs. I myself could be in danger of excommunication just for posting them.

Let us take the hand of God and allow Him to completely lead us out of Babylon.

I'm just wondering where you're getting your information from and what you make of these biblical assertions.

…29"My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. 30"I and the Father are one."...John 10

…15Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God. 16We have come to know and have believed the love which God has for us. God is love, and the one who abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him....1 John 4

6Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years....Revelation 20

8"For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath."....Matthew 12

7And the Lord God formed man of the slime of the earth: and breathed into his face the breath of life, and man became a living soul.....Genesis 2

28"Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. 29"Are not two sparrows sold for a cent? And yet not one of them will fall to the ground apart from your Father.…Matthew 10

16who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen.....1 Timothy 6

God is Love! Jesus saves! :smiley:

February 12, 2015

I'm just wondering where you're getting your information from and what you make of these biblical assertions.

…29"My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. 30"I and the Father are one."...John 10

…15Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God. 16We have come to know and have believed the love which God has for us. God is love, and the one who abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him....1 John 4

6Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years....Revelation 20

8"For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath."....Matthew 12

7And the Lord God formed man of the slime of the earth: and breathed into his face the breath of life, and man became a living soul.....Genesis 2

28"Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. 29"Are not two sparrows sold for a cent? And yet not one of them will fall to the ground apart from your Father.…Matthew 10

16who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen.....1 Timothy 6

God is Love! Jesus saves!

Not sure what kind of answer you're looking for when you just quote several random verses.

February 13, 2015

Not sure what kind of answer you're looking for when you just quote several random verses.

Maybe it would make it easier if I just ask who has the power to excommunicate?

7.He who is holy, who is true, who has the key of David, who opens and no one will shut, and who shuts and no one opens, says this: 8'I know your deeds. Behold, I have put before you an open door which no one can shut...Rev 3

39"You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me; 40and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life.…John 5

God is Love! Jesus saves! :smiley:

February 13, 2015

Correct. Not a good verse to attempt to prove the Trinity.

Both the Jehovah's Witnesses and the Christadelphians (coincidently both have lineage to the Millerites also) expunge this verse from their Bibles or simply attack its credibility. My feeling is once you start deleting verses from the Bible, you have to do the same for any other verse that someone takes a dislike to. If the only way groups like these two can prove their theology is to attack the translation of the Bible then their theology is not for me.

February 13, 2015

Maybe it would make it easier if I just ask who has the power to excommunicate?

7.He who is holy, who is true, who has the key of David, who opens and no one will shut, and who shuts and no one opens, says this: 8'I know your deeds. Behold, I have put before you an open door which no one can shut...Rev 3

39"You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me; 40and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life.…John 5

God is Love! Jesus saves!

Excommunication is something man does to each other when you don't agree with them or you're living up to their standards. I've been excommunicated several times from forums and even a Four Square Gospel soup kitchen that I served for 5 years because I preach the seventh day is the Lord's Day, the dead wait in their graves for the resurrection, the kingdom of God on earth, no immortality of the soul. Basically all the things on the list that I posted in my first post. The ministers at the soup kitchen even said I wasn't a Christian because I celebrate and honor the seventh day Sabbath.

February 13, 2015

Both the Jehovah's Witnesses and the Christadelphians (coincidently both have lineage to the Millerites also) expunge this verse from their Bibles or simply attack its credibility. My feeling is once you start deleting verses from the Bible, you have to do the same for any other verse that someone takes a dislike to. If the only way groups like these two can prove their theology is to attack the translation of the Bible then their theology is not for me.

The Catholic Encyclopedia, II, page 263:

"The baptismal formula was changed from the name of Jesus Christ to the words Father, Son, and Holy Spirit by the Catholic Church in the second century."

New Revised Standard Version says this about Matthew 28:19:

"Modern critics claim this formula is falsely ascribed to Jesus and that it represents later (Catholic) church tradition, for nowhere in the book of Acts (or any other book of the Bible) is baptism performed with the name of the Trinity..."

James Moffett's New Testament Translation:

In a footnote on page 64 about Matthew 28:19 he makes this statement: "It may be that this (Trinitarian) formula, so far as the fullness of its expression is concerned, is a reflection of the (Catholic) liturgical usage established later in the primitive (Catholic) community, It will be remembered that Acts speaks of baptizing "in the name of Jesus, cf. Acts 1:5 +."

February 13, 2015

Soujourner said in post # 17:

Both the Jehovah's Witnesses and the Christadelphians (coincidently both have lineage to the Millerites also) expunge this verse from their Bibles or simply attack its credibility. My feeling is once you start deleting verses from the Bible, you have to do the same for any other verse that someone takes a dislike to. If the only way groups like these two can prove their theology is to attack the translation of the Bible then their theology is not for me.

The issue is not and never has been that of translation. This issue here is that of the textual evidence. Read what the SDA Bible Commentary, and any other good commentary, says on that passage. Simply put, the textual evidence is lacking.

The story as to why Erasmus included it in his Greek NT is well known and that is how it became a part of the KJV. If you want to accept the reading of the Vulgate in this matter, fine.

However, in my opinion, even if you to believe that the Vulgate is a better source of Biblical information than is the Greek MSS, you should not use this passage to prove the Trinity simply because one should not attempt to prove Biblical doctrine of the basis of a well known error.

February 13, 2015

Soujourner said in post # 17:

The issue is not and never has been that of translation. This issue here is that of the textual evidence. Read what the SDA Bible Commentary, and any other good commentary, says on that passage. Simply put, the textual evidence is lacking.

The story as to why Erasmus included it in his Greek NT is well known and that is how it became a part of the KJV. If you want to accept the reading of the Vulgate in this matter, fine.

However, in my opinion, even if you to believe that the Vulgate is a better source of Biblical information than is the Greek MSS, you should not use this passage to prove the Trinity simply because one should not attempt to prove Biblical doctrine of the basis of a well known error.

So why not simply expunge it from the Bible if you truly believe it to be in error..?

February 13, 2015

The Catholic Encyclopedia, II, page 263:

"The baptismal formula was changed from the name of Jesus Christ to the words Father, Son, and Holy Spirit by the Catholic Church in the second century."

New Revised Standard Version says this about Matthew 28:19:

"Modern critics claim this formula is falsely ascribed to Jesus and that it represents later (Catholic) church tradition, for nowhere in the book of Acts (or any other book of the Bible) is baptism performed with the name of the Trinity..."

James Moffett's New Testament Translation:

In a footnote on page 64 about Matthew 28:19 he makes this statement: "It may be that this (Trinitarian) formula, so far as the fullness of its expression is concerned, is a reflection of the (Catholic) liturgical usage established later in the primitive (Catholic) community, It will be remembered that Acts speaks of baptizing "in the name of Jesus, cf. Acts 1:5 +."

So that is two verses you need removed from the Bible to make it fit your theology? What else troubles you that is written in the Scripture that you would like to see removed?

February 13, 2015

So that is two verses you need removed from the Bible to make it fit your theology? What else troubles you that is written in the Scripture that you would like to see removed?

Easter is not a Christian holiday so that added word can go to.

Acts 12:4 And when he had apprehended him, he put him in prison, and delivered him to four quaternions of soldiers to keep him; intending after Easter to bring him forth to the people.

Also, 1 John 5:7 can be fixed and a couple of comas can be fixed too.

February 13, 2015

Sojourner said in post # 21:

So why not simply expunge it from the Bible if you truly believe it to be in error..?

Maybe I do not understand your question. So, if I have misunderstood you, forgive me for responding as I will.

That is exactly what has been done. It has been removed from many translations of the Bible. I thought your original objections was to the fact that it had been removed.

If you believe that the removal was wrong, instead of making a generalized statement, deal with the issues. Deal with the issues of Erasmus, the Vulgate and the lack of textual evidence. That is where the issues are.

No one has ever said that it is an issue of translation. You are the first in the many years of history of Biblical translations to suggest that it is a translation issue. The textual evidence is clear. Now, what one does with that textual evidence is another issue. There are honest people who differ. There are people who know and understand the textual evidence and believe that the disputed passage should be included. O.K. that is their right. IF you are one of those, fine. Argue your case on the basis of the facts.

But, you ask why not just exclude the disputed passage. That is exactly what has been done.

Once that disputed passage has been excluded, what remains is not a good passage for supporting the Trinity. My point is: In supporting a Biblical doctrine, let us use the best texts and not a passage the is surrounded in dispute.

February 13, 2015

The Catholic Encyclopedia, II, page 263:

"The baptismal formula was changed from the name of Jesus Christ to the words Father, Son, and Holy Spirit by the Catholic Church in the second century."

New Revised Standard Version says this about Matthew 28:19:

"Modern critics claim this formula is falsely ascribed to Jesus and that it represents later (Catholic) church tradition, for nowhere in the book of Acts (or any other book of the Bible) is baptism performed with the name of the Trinity..."

James Moffett's New Testament Translation:

In a footnote on page 64 about Matthew 28:19 he makes this statement: "It may be that this (Trinitarian) formula, so far as the fullness of its expression is concerned, is a reflection of the (Catholic) liturgical usage established later in the primitive (Catholic) community, It will be remembered that Acts speaks of baptizing "in the name of Jesus, cf. Acts 1:5 +."

Since it is written our Father in Heaven has/will- written/write His Law on our heart and reading the Word reveals our desire to know His will, if we willingly submit to His will and ask for His Holy Spirit to guide us as we are convicted, we have one of two options we either must live or die with. 1. Accept Jesus as Lord of our life and Savior of our soul or 2. Accept the archenemy of our Creator as our best alternative, who just happens to know his time is short and he's making every effort to dissuade from believing the reality that God is Love, before his last best effort is foiled.

…11"And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, and they did not love their life even when faced with death. 12"For this reason, rejoice, O heavens and you who dwell in them. Woe to the earth and the sea, because the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, knowing that he has only a short time."....Revelation 12

…26men fainting from fear and the expectation of the things which are coming upon the world; for the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 27"Then they will see THE SON OF MAN COMING IN A CLOUD with power and great glory. 28"But when these things begin to take place, straighten up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near."....Luke 21 emphasis theirs' LHC

God is Love! Jesus saves! :smiley:

February 13, 2015

Since it is written our Father in Heaven has/will- written/write His Law on our heart and reading the Word reveals our desire to know His will, if we willingly submit to His will and ask for His Holy Spirit to guide us as we are convicted, we have one of two options we either must live or die with. 1. Accept Jesus as Lord of our life and Savior of our soul or 2. Accept the archenemy of our Creator as our best alternative, who just happens to know his time is short and he's making every effort to dissuade from believing the reality that God is Love, before his last best effort is foiled.

…11"And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, and they did not love their life even when faced with death. 12"For this reason, rejoice, O heavens and you who dwell in them. Woe to the earth and the sea, because the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, knowing that he has only a short time."....Revelation 12

…26men fainting from fear and the expectation of the things which are coming upon the world; for the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 27"Then they will see THE SON OF MAN COMING IN A CLOUD with power and great glory. 28"But when these things begin to take place, straighten up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near."....Luke 21 emphasis theirs' LHC

God is Love! Jesus saves!

I don't believe salvation is based on acknowledging a set of doctrines nor is it found in our ability to understand the eternal nature of God. Salvation is recognizing our need for a Savior and then believing and accepting Jesus as that Savior.

John 5:39-40 You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.

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