I know this is going to fly in the face of many people but, truth is truth.

March 13, 2015

We do not read of "the Father" being SENT.

The Father does the sending.

That suggests the Father is supreme.

March 13, 2015

1 Corinthians 8:6 "yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live. (NKJ).

Ephesians 3:14-15 "For this reason I bow my knees to the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, from whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named," (NKJ)

So - if Mary conceived by the Holy Spirit, would that not make the Holy Spirit, the Father of Jesus?

That SUGGESTS the "Holy Spirit" = God "the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ".

He poured His spirit through His Son.

March 15, 2015

If the Holy Spirit is a THIRD divine being, then WHY did Jesus have to "go away" ?

I believe He had to "go away" in order to be glorified, and once glorified He could not walk among humans. They could not stand His shining presence.

. . .

I do not think it a coincidence, that the Spirit descended on the very day - at the very hour - that Jesus was glorified.

Acts 2:33 “Therefore being exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He [Christ] poured out this which you now see and hear” (NAS).

It is taught that Jesus was glorified by the Father when He ascended to Heaven and sent down again as the Holy Spirit.

But it appears there is no direct textual evidence to this effect. Instead, Jesus' own words seem to point the other way:

KJV John 13: 31 Therefore, when he was gone out, Jesus said, Now is the Son of man glorified, and God is glorified in him.

That Jesus was glorified only when He returned to heaven, is really difficult for me to accept in the light of what Jesus Himself said. I simply can't exchange the simple, plain words of our Lord and Savior with all the eloquence the world has to offer.

March 15, 2015

In earlier posts, it appeared to me that what was suggested was that it was Jesus Who is the Holy Spirit.

Jesus did not "speak of Himself" (by His own authority). He told the disciples exactly THAT on more than on occasion. I think it suggests the Spirit IS the Son of God - now glorified and omnipresent.

It now appears it is being suggested that the Father is the Holy Spirit.

. . .

That SUGGESTS the "Holy Spirit" = God "the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ".

. . .

March 15, 2015

In earlier posts, it appeared to me that what was suggested was that it was Jesus Who is the Holy Spirit.

It now appears it is being suggested that the Father is the Holy Spirit.

I don't have a problem with that. The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God; and both the Father and the Son are God.

March 15, 2015

I don't have a problem with that. The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God; and both the Father and the Son are God.

"All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, 20teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age."....Matt 28

God is Love! Jesus saves! :smiley:

March 15, 2015

I don't have a problem with that. The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God; and both the Father and the Son are God.

Neither do I have a problem with what you posted:

It is simply saying

1. The Spirit of the Father

is also

2. The Spirit of Jesus.

But there's quite a difference when one says in one occassion:

1. The Holy Spirit is Jesus.

while on another occassion

2. The Holy Spirit is the Father.

If it is not inconsistent to you, then good. I respect that.

But to me, it is inconsistent.

March 15, 2015

"All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, 20teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age."....Matt 28

God is Love! Jesus saves!

We've talked about this verse in other threads.

Here are my comments, copied from the study at my website titled "Difficult Passages" - under the "A Trinity Questioned" button.

BAPTIZING THEM - IN THE NAME

Matthew 28:19 “Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.”

The Emperor Constantine commissioned and paid for a copying and compilation of the Scriptures now known as the “New Testament”. The resulting Greek text is known as the “Byzantine”. New scholarly work by those familiar with the ancient manuscripts has revealed no Greek manuscript older than the time of Constantine, which contains Matthew 28:19. The page containing Matthew 28:19 was torn from every pre-Constantine Greek manuscript. One Aramaic manuscript survives. In that manuscript, Matthew 28:19 reads, “baptizing them in my name.” In other words, Christ commanded them to baptize in HIS name. And many other passages confirm that the disciples did just that.

Eusebius of Caesarea wrote during the 4th century. He was a “friend” of Constantine. In his work “Ecclesiastical History, Book III, Cpt 5, Section 2", he quotes Matthew 28:19 as “make disciples of all the nations in my name”. He quotes the passage in the same way in “Oration in Praise of Emperor Constantine, Cpt 16, Sect. 8" . He quotes the passage in the same way some 18 times. He finally quotes the passage once, as “in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost”. He may have been influenced by his loyalty to the Emperor.

Acts 2:38 “Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.”

Acts 8:16 “For as yet He had fallen upon none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.”

Acts 19:5 “When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.”

Romans 6:3 “Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?”

Galatians 3:27 “For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

1 Corinthians 6:11 “But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.”

There is no reason to suppose that the disciples "got it wrong" when they went about baptizing "in the name of Jesus".

It was tradition, within Judaism to baptize "in the name" of the man who had been your teacher - the one who had brought you to the LORD.

This was the tradition that Paul was addressing, when he spoke of those who were "of Apollos" and others "of Peter" and others "of Paul" (I Cor. 1:12).

He told them that everyone was to be "of Christ" ONLY. HE was the ONE who brought them to "the Father".

March 15, 2015

Neither do I have a problem with what you posted:

It is simply saying

1. The Spirit of the Father

is also

2. The Spirit of Jesus.

But there's quite a difference when one says in one occassion:

1. The Holy Spirit is Jesus.

while on another occassion

2. The Holy Spirit is the Father.

If it is not inconsistent to you, then good. I respect that.

But to me, it is inconsistent.

It took me four years of study and struggle before I was convinced that my God is not a Trinity of three divine Beings.

I had been so thoroughly convinced by that later writings published under EGW's name, that I just had not really searched the Scriptures.

Ephesians 4:10 "He who descended is Himself also He who ascended afar above all the heavens, so that He might fill all things." (NAU)

He ascended "so that" He could fill all things. This is the REASON why He had to "go away".

In this verse, it is Jesus who fills all things. The only way Jesus could "fill all things" is by becoming omnipresent once again.

How would Jesus become omnipresent?

He could communicate with "all things" through another divine being called "the Holy Spirit", [but that's inserting another mediator, which would mean that Jesus is not between God and man]

OR

He could receive from His Father, the power and glory that were once His by nature.

Which is just what we see in Acts 2:33.

"Therefore having been exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He [Jesus] has poured forth this which you both see and hear. (NAU)

Jesus received the spirit of His Father - FROM His Father - and then poured that spirit upon His disciples. They experienced that spirit AS the presence and power of Jesus.

Paul called that spirit "the Spirit of Christ" (Rom. 8:9).

Jesus said, "I am with you always."

Matthew 18:20 "For where two or three are gathered in my name, I am there among them." (NRS)

So IS Jesus really "there", or is it another being, who is personating Jesus?

March 15, 2015

1. I have found no command in Scripture that we are to exalt, glorify, give thanks to, pray to, or in any other way “worship” the Holy Spirit. There is no account of any created being offering worship to the Holy Spirit by name.

Revelation 5:13 “And every creature which is in heaven and on the earth . . . I heard saying, ‘Blessing and honor and glory and power be to Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, forever and ever!’”

In the New Testament Scriptures, two divine beings are worshiped - the Father and the Son.

2. Christ prayed only to His Father, and never spoke to another divine being by name.

He instructed His disciples to pray to the Father, in the name of the Son (Matthew 6:10, John 15:16, John 16:23).

3. We are to pray for the spirit, never to the spirit. The Holy Spirit is the gift.

4. Jesus called His Father “the only true God” (John 17:3).

5. Paul said, “There is One God, the Father, of Whom are all things, AND One Lord Jesus Christ, through Whom are all things” (1Corinthians 8:6). He also wrote, “one God and Father of all, Who is above all, and through all, and in you all” (Ephesians 4:6).

6. We were created by the Father, through the Son (1Cor.8:6, Eph.3:9, Col.1:12-16, Heb.1:1-3)

7. The family is named after the Father.

Ephesians 3:14,15 [Paul writing] “For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ’ of Whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named.”

8. Those who enter the heavenly mansions will have the name of the Father AND of the Son written in their foreheads (Rev. 14:1, Rev.3:12).

9. The Father is the God of Christ (Jn. 20:17, Rom. 15:6, 1Cor. 11:3, 2Cor. 1:3, 2Cor. 11:31, Eph. 1:3, Eph. 1:17, Col. 1:3, Heb. 1:9, 1Pet 1:3, Rev. 1:6).

Revelation 3:12 “He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he shall go out no more. And I will write on him the name of My God and the name of the city of My God, the New Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God. And I will write on him My new name.”

This statement to John, was made many years AFTER Jesus ascended to Heaven.

10. “The head of Christ is God” (1 Cor. 11:3).

   Christ will be subordinate to the Father for all eternity (1 Corinthians 15:24-28).
   The kingdom of heaven, was called by Christ, “My Father’s kingdom” (Matthew 26:29).

   There is no mention of “the Spirit’s kingdom.”

   “Our Father ... Thine is the kingdom” (Matthew 6:13).

   The last like the first sentence of the Lord’s prayer, points to our Father as above all power and authority and every name that is named.

11. We are reconciled to the Father through the Son (Col 1:19-20).

There is no mention of being reconciled to the Spirit.

12. Christ was “sent by the Father” (John 5:23, 5:30, 5:36, 5:37, 6:39, 6:44, 6:57, 8:16, 8:29, 8:42, 10:36, 12:49, 17:21, 20:21, 1John 4:14).

Never did Christ say that He was sent by the Spirit.

13. "Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!’” (Rev. 7:10).

14. We “abide in the Son and in the Father” (1John 2:24).

15. “Our fellowship is with the Father and with His Son” (1John 1:3).

16. All of the treasures of wisdom and knowledge are found in the Father and the Son (Col. 2:2-3).

17. The Father forgives (Matt 6:12,14,15).

Christ also forgives sin, because He received all authority from His Father, (John 5:22, 27; Matt 28:18)

but nowhere in Scripture do we read that we are forgiven by the Spirit.

“God so loved the world that He [singular] gave His [singular] only begotten Son” (John 3:16).

If “God” is one divine being who manifests in three ways, then HE could not have given HIS “begotten” Son.

He could manifest as a begotten Son. He could give part of Himself (or a manifestation of Himself).

If “God” is three co-equal divine beings, then one of that Trinity could assume the role of a Son, but you could not say that a Father “gave His Son.”

Did the Apostolic writers intend to mislead? I think not! I understand the Bible as it reads.

Jesus Christ was and is the begotten Son of God our Father.

That is who He is. That understanding is the foundation of our faith.

Respectfully,

Rachel Cory

Prophecy Viewpoint

March 15, 2015

We are not called to love the Spirit either nor does the Spirit have a throne.

March 16, 2015

In I posted in a simplified form my belief about God:

The word "God" carries with it TWO (2) connotations.

1. As Supreme Ruler of the whole Universe - past, present, future.

This is God the Father ALONE. He is the only One. Not Two nor Three.

2. As divine personalities, distinct and different from angels and humans.

To this connotation, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit all belong. These 3 exists distinctively of each other. The Son is quite special, because He is the God who manifested in human servant form, died, resurrected, and will live forever more.

I don't believe that the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit are ONE God in a Trinity of 3 divine beings.

March 16, 2015

. . .

Ephesians 4:10 "He who descended is Himself also He who ascended afar above all the heavens, so that He might fill all things." (NAU)

He ascended "so that" He could fill all things. This is the REASON why He had to "go away".
. . .

What came first in the sequence of events stated in Eph 4:10? Verses 8 & 9 reveal the answer:

NKJ Ephesians 4:

8 Therefore He says: "When He ascended on high, He led captivity captive, And gave gifts to men."

9 (Now this, "He ascended" -- what does it mean but that He also first descended into the lower parts of the earth?

10 He who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.)

March 16, 2015

We are not called to love the Spirit either nor does the Spirit have a throne.

No one is called to love Samie, nor does Samie have a throne, but Samie distinctly exists.

How much more the Holy Spirit . . .

March 16, 2015

No one is called to love Samie, nor does Samie have a throne, but Samie distinctly exists.

How much more the Holy Spirit . . .

Samie is not GOD. Therefore no command to love him, or worship him - sitting on a throne.

March 16, 2015

Did you ever wonder way Jesus had to go to the Father before the Spirit could be sent? It's because He had to first become that life giving Spirit before He could be sent.

1 Corinthians 15:45 “The first man Adam became a living being.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.

Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a Child is born, unto us a Son is given; and the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

John 14:26 But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, will teach you everything and remind you of all that I told you.

John 14:16-20 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever— the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you. “A little while longer and the world will see Me no more, but you will see Me. Because I live, you will live also. At that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you.

2 Corinthians 3:17 Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

1 Corinthians 15:45 “The first man Adam became a living being.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.

March 17, 2015

No one is called to love Samie, nor does Samie have a throne, but Samie distinctly exists.

How much more the Holy Spirit . . .

Samie is not GOD. Therefore no command to love him, or worship him - sitting on a throne.

But you INDIRECTLY say the Holy Spirit is God, yet you say there is no Spirit.

March 17, 2015

But you INDIRECTLY say the Holy Spirit is God, yet you say there is no Spirit.

I believe there is a Spirit, it's just not a person. The Spirit of the Father is what manifests His power, wisdom and presence in the world. The Father's Spirit flow through conduits or mediators such as prophets and angels. Jesus was also a conduit for the Father's Spirit.

John 3:34 For he is sent by God. He speaks God’s words, for God gives him the Spirit without limit.

Adam was to be the conduit for the Father but he failed and lost his ability to be that conduit for God's Spirit. Jesus is the second Adam. Jesus, at His glorification to the Father's side became the new conduit for the Father's Spirit to flow through mankind.

1 Corinthians 15:45 And so it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being.” The last Adam became a life-giving Spirit.

Before Jesus was glorified, the life giving Spirit of the New Covenant was not yet. This is why it was important that Jesus go to the Father to be glorified.

John 7:39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

When the Spirit of the Father dwells in a person they have the Father. When the Spirit of Christ dwells in a person they have Christ in them. The reason for this is because the Spirit of the Father is the power, wisdom and presence of the Father. When we have the Spirit of Christ we have the power, wisdom and presence of Jesus in us. The Spirit of the Father flow through Jesus to us.

Romans 8:9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.

March 17, 2015

Romans 8:9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.

I doubt if Jesus would identify the Holy Spirit with the personal pronoun "He" if He wasn't one of the three persons of the Deity. The fact that He operates in a realm almost totally unexplainable according to our conception of the normal human reality, doesn't remove Him from individual personality.

26"But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you....John 14

God is Love! Jesus saves! :smiley:

March 17, 2015

But you INDIRECTLY say the Holy Spirit is God, yet you say there is no Spirit.

Hmmm... I thought all those folks were saying that there IS a Holy Spirit; but it's not a seperate Member of the Trinity (actually, just the Godhead; because if the Spirit is not a seperate Member of the Trinity, there is no Trinity).

March 17, 2015

I doubt if Jesus would identify the Holy Spirit with the personal pronoun "He" if He wasn't one of the three persons of the Deity. The fact that He operates in a realm almost totally unexplainable according to our conception of the normal human reality, doesn't remove Him from individual personality.

26"But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you....John 14

God is Love! Jesus saves!

Modern day bible translations use the word, He, but older translations used the word, it.

March 17, 2015

Modern day bible translations use the word, He, but older translations used the word, it.

Which just tells me it's reasonable to assume God (Father, Son and Holy Spirit) hasn't or didn't reveal everything about Himself to His chosen when He first wrote down the Biblical record, and as long as the most recent revealed doesn't do violence to past revealed information, the fact that Truth is revealed by the Holy Spirit is assurance that our Father in Heaven hasn't given up on humanity as a whole yet and present scholars of the Word can still find purpose in their calling.

11....the ruler of this world has been judged. 12"I have many more things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 13"But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.…John 16

God is Love! Jesus saves! :smiley:

March 17, 2015

Even EGW used, it.

March 17, 2015

Even EGW used, it.

And I believe she accepts that there is a Trinity??

March 17, 2015

And I believe she accepts that there is a Trinity??

There's the Trinity and then there's the Beast's version of the Trinity.

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I know this is going to fly in the face of many people but, truth is truth.

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