One of the historical "markers" in the 70 weeks -- A.D. 27

[brotherly love]

The first observation of this thread tells me that there is much debate over dates. This is not limited to this thread, but the dates of the birth, baptism, and resurrection of Jesus have been hotly debated for almost 2000 years.

This is clear evidence that the writers of the New Testament did not put much interest or effort into firmly establishing dates with the life of Jesus. Many people have pontificated that some part of the 70 weeks of Daniel lands on some part of the life of Jesus, This ranges from His birth, baptism, riding into Jerusalem on a donkey, death and resurrection.

The range of dates and the range of highlights attributed to the life of Jesus and the 70 weeks should tip off the reader of the Bible that something is wrong. Instead of recalculating this and that to make this or that fit-the question should be asked "why are the dates so debatable" and the evidence is clear that this is not the mindset of the New Testament writers attaching the 70 weeks of Daniel to the life of Jesus.

The New Testament writers make no claim with the 70 weeks were fulfilled with Jesus. There are many quotes found in the New Testament from the Old Testament to substantiate the ministry of Jesus, but none are given from the 70 weeks.

This one would have trumped them all-for Daniel to predict a part of the life of Jesus to the year would have been remarkable-but the New Testament makes no such claim.

[brotherly love]

The 70 week prophecy  was perhaps the most convincing Biblical evidence that Jesus was indeed the Messiah; for it fortold  the time of his arrival, the time of his death, the reason for his death and explained why the temple veil was torn asunder at his death.

 

The verses of Daniel 9:24-27  describing the events of the 70th week were sure evidence that the Jews had crucified their long awaited Messiah. This was too painful to admit, so Rabbis put curses on all who would use Daniel to determine the  time of the Messiah's advent.

 

 

​

​Where does the new Testament support your claims of the 70 weeks?

[8thdaypriest]

Thanks Jackson for pointing out that I said "at the END of the 70 weeks".  I should have said, "At the end of the 2300 evening-mornings." 

The Sanctuary is "cleansed" - perfect tense - completed process, at the END of the 2300 evening-mornings.

A process of cleansing did not just BEGIN at the end of the 2300 evening mornings.  It WILL BE COMPLETE, at the end of the 2300 evening-mornings.

Which negates Oct. 22nd, 1844 as the START of an investigative judgment (cleansing proces?), that is STILL GOING ON after 170 years.

Passover, First Fruits, and Pentecost were ONE DAY Feasts, with fulfillments that were complete within ONE DAY. 

The Day of Atonement was a ONE DAY fast, with a fulfillment that will be begin and end within ONE DAY. 

The "scapegoat" will be banished to the "uninhabited place" on THAT same day, and the High Priest will come forth to bless His waiting people. 

You say that the 2300 evening-mornings, and the 70 weeks BEGAN AT THE SAME TIME, with the command in 457.   You say the fulfillment of the 70 weeks verifies the 1844 date for a cleansing process the Advent pioneers terms an "investigative judgment".  I think there are just too many holes in that doctrinal teaching. 

[brotherly love]

The NT says that "the fulness of time was come" and "the time is fulfilled". This denoted there was a stated time given for the advent of the Messiah, for  "Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets."

 

Only Dan 9:24-27 prophesied the time of Christ's anointing, as well as his death.

 

 

Brotherly Love, the NT says that all scripture is profitable for doctrine. Why would you think that any scripture from the OT that is not specifically  highlighted in the NT is not Profitable for doctrine?  That is the same argument Sunday keepers use to reject the 7th day Sabbath, i.e., "It isn't given emphasis in the NT".

​I am not sure how the fullness of time" and 'the time is fulfilled" is connected with Daniel 9:24-27? Where does the New Testament state this is about the 70 weeks?

Where does Daniel 9:24-27 prophesy the time of Jesus's annointing, as well as His death?

Lets not fog up the debate of the sabbath, nor give misrepresentations of what other Christians believe. The argument you make that "it isn't given emphasis in the NT" hardly holds water as a comparison with what you are claiming with the 70 weeks connected with some part of the life of Jesus. The New Testament gives great emphasis, detail and devotion of space with claiming the life of Jesus as a fulfillment by the old Testament. Some are typological, some are direct, but the 70 weeks of Daniel predicting some part of the life of Jesus is not mentioned-and this would be the one to trump them all, but it is absent.

Did the Holy Spirit hide this from the writers of the NT who were trying to convey the prophesies of the Messiah? Was it unimportant or overlooked by the holy Spirit

[8thdaypriest]

Daniel 9:24 "Seventy 'sevens' are decreed for your people and your holy city

to finish transgression,

to put an end to sin,

to atone for wickedness,

to bring in everlasting righteousness,

to seal up vision and prophecy and

to anoint the Most Holy Place. (NIV)

The wording seems to point to the Day of Atonement.  That is THE DAY (only one day) WHEN the "sin" was cleansed from the Tabernacle.  That is THE DAY WHEN "the Most Holy Place" was anointed with the  blood of the Lord's goat.  

 Daniel 9:25 "Know and understand this: From the time the word goes out to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One, the ruler, comes,

there will be seven 'sevens,' and sixty-two 'sevens.' (NIV)

So - the "Anointed One" would come at 69 weeks (of years). 

Daniel 9:26 "After the sixty-two 'sevens,' the Anointed One will be put to death and will have nothing." (NIV)

To my mind, that puts the death of the "Anointed One" at the end of week 69, NOT in the middle of the 70th week. 

"The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed." (Dan 9:26 NIV).

That "ruler" would be the general Titus of Rome.  But did he "make a covenant with many for one seven" ?   Was there a record of this ? 

Daniel 9:27 He [the ruler to come] will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.'

In the middle of the 'seven' he [the ruler to come] will put an end to sacrifice and offering [take away the daily] .

And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him. " (Dan 9:27 NIV)

Jesus did NOT "set up an abomination that causes desolation". 

 

[8thdaypriest]

Daniel 12:11  "From the time that the daily sacrifice is abolished and the abomination that causes desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days." (NIV)

Sounds just like Daniel 9:27. 

But that passage was in answer to an angel who asked, "How long will it be before these astonishing things are fulfilled?" (Dan 12:6 NIV)

The "astonishing things" would be Michael standing up and a resurrection of multitudes who sleep in the dust. 

My personal take - at this point - is that the "abomination that causes desolation" is set up in a rebuilt Temple, 1290 days before Michael stands up.  The "ruler to come" will give people 30 days to decide whether they will worship Him, in violation of God's commandment.  Those who refuse to serve (worship) him, will be severely persecuted for 1260 days until "the power of the holy people has been completely shattered."  When the last witness is imprisoned or killed - it's OVER, and Michael will stand up. 

So yes, Daniel 9:24-27 DOES point to the death of Messiah, but His death at the end of week 69 does not bring the END the 70 weeks. 

[brotherly love]

Daniel 9:24 "Seventy 'sevens' are decreed for your people and your holy city

to finish transgression,

to put an end to sin,

to atone for wickedness,

to bring in everlasting righteousness,

to seal up vision and prophecy and

to anoint the Most Holy Place. (NIV)

The wording seems to point to the Day of Atonement.  That is THE DAY (only one day) WHEN the "sin" was cleansed from the Tabernacle.  That is THE DAY WHEN "the Most Holy Place" was anointed with the  blood of the Lord's goat.  

 

 

 

​We need to stay for the most part in the book of Daniel for context. The context is that the assembly of God were exiled under the terms of the Law of Moses for continuously being unfaithful.

The words to finish the transgression, atone for wickedness, put an end to sin...etc., is in context the exile and the reason they were in exile-following false gods. If you are willing to take a step back, to insert the day of atonement is not in context with the concerns of the book of Daniel-the concerns are being in exile and in essence being in exile from God.

To anoint the most holy place is the alter, and it had to be anointed by an anointed Priesthood in order for the terms of the Covenant and the Presence of God to be met

Edited May 7, 2015 by brotherly love

[brotherly love]

 

 Daniel 9:25 "Know and understand this: From the time the word goes out to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One, the ruler, comes,

there will be seven 'sevens,' and sixty-two 'sevens.' (NIV)

So - the "Anointed One" would come at 69 weeks (of years). 

Daniel 9:26 "After the sixty-two 'sevens,' the Anointed One will be put to death and will have nothing." (NIV)

To my mind, that puts the death of the "Anointed One" at the end of week 69, NOT in the middle of the 70th week. 

 

 

​This interpretation can be understood because it has been the result of many mistransaltions. This would be an understatement as the translators did not translate in this passage, but instead inserted a commentary derived from tradition.

In 34 cases of the word anointed and its roots, it is always translated as anointed..except in Daniel 9 in 2 places, it is translated as Messiah. This is not even a translatlon as they kept the original word Messiah derived from the Hebrew. They did not translate. Tradition takes time to change, and most transaltions get the word anointed correct, but now they add a Capital. This is still inserting a commentary instead of translating.

The term anointed one would be an anointed king or Priest in the Tanakh. It is true that Jesus is God's anointed, but the word anointed is not a Messianic term in the Tanakh. Cyrus could then be rendered a Messiah, but he was shockingly described this way as a non believer to illustrate his doing God's work in returning the faithful.

To insert that Messiah would be cut off and have nothing is unintentionally blasphemous. In the Tanakh, to be cut off is to be cut off from the covenant. you will see this listed with sins that have no witnesses-like having intentional sex on a womans monthly cycle for example. That person may fool other people, but he would be cut off from the covenant.

There is one anointed priest who fits the billing, and that is Onias III who was murdered and the last of the zadokite priesthood-the priesthood became available to the highest bidder. The zadokite line was to be no more after this.

You are correct, this would have happened on the end of the 69 week, or the beginning of the 70 week.

[8thdaypriest]

NOT understanding what you're saying brotherly love.  Would you explain in a more detailed way, inserting your comments into the TEXT as I did.  Thanks

[brotherly love]

NOT understanding what you're saying brotherly love.  Would you explain in a more detailed way, inserting your comments into the TEXT as I did.  Thanks

​I quoted a part of your post and then commented on it in the same way I have done on this quote

[8thdaypriest]

Not helpful brotherly love.

[brotherly love]

Not helpful brotherly love.

​Whether I quote you in whole and use my words with a red highlight as you have done, or I quote one topic from your post and comment below is no different. This is how the whole forum works and responds to each other.

What I have done is separated a topic from your whole post and commented on it because it will be more than a sentence. This is why you will see two of my posts to your one post.

This is not hard to understand,and it is basically how the whole forum works. if it is the topic you dont understand let me know?

[brotherly love]

Sorry, I did not mean the topic, but my response to your post.

[Samie]

Again, based upon our Savior's words, prophecies in Daniel related with the setting up of the abomination of desolation will find fulfillment shortly before the second coming. see Matt 24:14-31.

Among these prophecies are those concerning the little horn of Dan 7 & 8, the 2300 days in Dan 8, the 70 weeks in Dan 9, prophecies in Dan 11:16-45, and the 3-1/2 times in Dan 7 & 12.  All these prophecies are related with the taking away of the daily, an event that is precursory to the setting up of the abomination of desolation (Dan 12:11). Christ said that the setting up of the abomination of desolation will trigger the onset of the great tribulation which God will shorten for the sake of the elect, and then followed immediately by the occurrence of unusual celestial phenomena like solar eclipse by day followed by lunar eclipse come night that same day, and will be capped by the Second Coming of our Lord.

The great tribulation is also called the time of trouble in Dan 12:1 where at its occurrence, those found written in the book (of life?) will be delivered. In Dan 12:2. the timing of the time of trouble is at the time of the resurrection, which no doubt, will occur at the Second Coming where even those who pierced our Lord will see Him come in the clouds (Rev 1:7).

Click here for a time chart illustrating the above.

[Samie]

NIV Daniel 9:27 He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.'  In the middle of the 'seven' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing of the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him."

Many preachers teach that the "he" who will put an end to sacrifice and offering referred to in Dan 9:27 is Christ and that His death on the cross is the event that put an end to sacrifice and offering mentioned in the verse. I beg to disagree because the "he" referred to is likewise responsible for the setting up the abomination of desolation as explicitly stated in the verse itself.  That abolition of sacrifices and setting up of the abomination of desolation is also mentioned in Dan 11:31 and spearheaded by the vile-person king described in Dan 11:36. Here are those verses:

NIV Daniel 11:

31 "His armed forces will rise up to desecrate the temple fortress and will abolish the daily sacrifice. Then they will set up the abomination that causes desolation.

36 "The king will do as he pleases. He will exalt and magnify himself above every god and will say unheard-of things against the God of gods. He will be successful until the time of wrath is completed, for what has been determined must take place.

Based on the above verses, it would be bordering on blasphemy for me to believe that it is Christ Who is being referred to in the foregoing verses cited.

[Samie]

NIV Daniel 12:11   "From the time that the daily sacrifice is abolished and the abomination that causes desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days.

If indeed Christ's death (31 AD) is the event that put an end to the "daily", then what event fulfilled the setting up of the abomination of desolation 1290 days thereafter, as specified in the above verse itself? Why is it that Titus and his army's attack of Jerusalem in AD 70 is the one pointed to by many as the desolation spoken of by Jesus in Matt 24:15-21, using Luke 21:20ff in parallel, when 31 + 1290 goes far beyond 70AD, and up to 1321 AD where no significant event related to the abomination of desolation seemed to have occurred?

Granting that the setting up of the abomination of desolation occurred either in AD70 or 1321 AD, then what event fulfilled the great tribulation or time of trouble in any of those dates? Jesus pointed out that the setting up of the abomination of desolation will trigger the start of the great tribulation, immediately followed by celestial phenomena and then capped by the Second Coming!

The phrase "abomination of desolation" (Greek bde,lugma th/j evrhmw,sewj ) indicates that it is the "abomination" that will cause the desolation. In Daniel, the word "abomination" is from the Hebrew #Quvi (shiqquts). Elsewhere in the Old Testament, "shiqquts"  refers to idols or images which pagans worship as their deities (see 1 Kings 11:5,7; 2 Kings 23:13). In Scriptures, there is only one image that will cause desolation to the end-time people of God shortly before the Second Coming. It is the image of the beast. Here's Scriptures:

NKJ Revelation 13:15 He was granted power to give breath to the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak and cause as many as would not worship the image of the beast to be killed.

 

[8thdaypriest]

Sorry brotherly love.  I was expressing what I needed in order to grasp exactly what you meant, not what you SHOULD do. 

[Samie]

The 2300 day-prophecy of Dan 8 is also directly related with the taking away of the "daily" (see Dan 8:11-14). It is widely believed that this prophecy had culminated in 1844. If that were so, then, the "daily" had been taken away and the abomination of desolation shall be set up, 1290 days thereafter (Dan 12:11).

Do we add 1290 to 1844 and come up with 3134 or 1119 years from now (2015)? I don't think those who believe that the 2300 days had ended in 1844 will cater to 3134 as the time when the abomination of desolation shall be set up because that would mean the second coming they likewise believe is imminent, would be beyond 3134!

It is shown in this chart that the 2300 days will end at the Second Coming.

 

[brotherly love]

NIV Daniel 9:27 He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.'  In the middle of the 'seven' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing of the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him."

Many preachers teach that the "he" who will put an end to sacrifice and offering referred to in Dan 9:27 is Christ and that His death on the cross is the event that put an end to sacrifice and offering mentioned in the verse. I beg to disagree because the "he" referred to is likewise responsible for the setting up the abomination of desolation as explicitly stated in the verse itself.  That abolition of sacrifices and setting up of the abomination of desolation is also mentioned in Dan 11:31 and spearheaded by the vile-person king described in Dan 11:36. Here are those verses:

NIV Daniel 11:

31 "His armed forces will rise up to desecrate the temple fortress and will abolish the daily sacrifice. Then they will set up the abomination that causes desolation.

36 "The king will do as he pleases. He will exalt and magnify himself above every god and will say unheard-of things against the God of gods. He will be successful until the time of wrath is completed, for what has been determined must take place.

Based on the above verses, it would be bordering on blasphemy for me to believe that it is Christ Who is being referred to in the foregoing verses cited.

​Sometimes it is a razor thin difference that makes the bible fall into place. Try using the abomination that causes desolation in the olivet discourse as Jesus telling the disciples that what they experienced in the past was going to happen again in their generation.

[brotherly love]

Sorry brotherly love.  I was expressing what I needed in order to grasp exactly what you meant, not what you SHOULD do. 

​If you could tell me what you did not understand, I will try to communicate it better.

[Samie]

​Sometimes it is a razor thin difference that makes the bible fall into place. Try using the abomination that causes desolation in the olivet discourse as Jesus telling the disciples that what they experienced in the past was going to happen again in their generation.

​Seems like Jesus did not tell His disciples that what He was telling them at Mt. Olivet has ALREADY been experienced in the past. Our Lord's Mt. Olivet discourse was in response to the 3-fold question asked by His disciples. The part of that discourse recorded in Matt 24:14-31 was specifically for what events are to transpire shortly before He comes again.

[brotherly love]

​Seems like Jesus did not tell His disciples that what He was telling them at Mt. Olivet has ALREADY been experienced in the past. Our Lord's Mt. Olivet discourse was in response to the 3-fold question asked by His disciples. The part of that discourse recorded in Matt 24:14-31 was specifically for what events are to transpire shortly before He comes again.

​So 'this generation" actually means "that generation'

The bracketed phrase (let the reader understand) would also be confusing if there was nothing to understand. This phrase is given becaus ethe abomination had already occured with the desolation of the temple and alter by Antiochus Epiphanese

[Samie]

​So 'this generation" actually means "that generation'

​Nope. The Jewish "generation" (from Greek genea, genea) has been in existence till now, not extinct, and therefore has not passed away yet.

The bracketed phrase (let the reader understand) would also be confusing if there was nothing to understand. This phrase is given becaus ethe abomination had already occured with the desolation of the temple and alter by Antiochus Epiphanese

True, we need to understand what the abomination of desolation is. As pointed out in this post, the abomination of desolation is the image of the beast.

​Anctiochus existed prior to Christ's incarnation. In Matt 24, Jesus was foretelling, not narrating events of the past.

[brotherly love]

​Nope. The Jewish "generation" (from Greek genea, genea) has been in existence till now, not extinct, and therefore has not passed away yet.

True, we need to understand what the abomination of desolation is. As pointed out in this post, the abomination of desolation is the image of the beast.

​Anctiochus existed prior to Christ's incarnation. In Matt 24, Jesus was foretelling, not narrating events of the past.

​Generation does not mean to be not extinct, in Hebrew, in Greek or in English. This is when the Temple was destroyed, a generation after Jesus predicted it.

Jesus would have been telling an audience all too familiar with the horrors of Antiochus Epiphanese. If you read Daniel chapter 7, the Messianic figure (we now know as Jesus) ascends into Heaven after the fourth beast is destroyed. Are you looking for Jesus to ascend into Heaven after this future abomination?

This is a brilliant prophesy as Jesus came after Antiochus was destroyed and the Syrian Empire was destroyed by the Romans

[brotherly love]

 

Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets. Amos 3:7

Would God not reveal the time, place  and manner of the first advent of His son "

The place:   Micah 5:2   But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, [though] thou be little among the thousands of Judah, [yet] out of thee shall he come forth unto me [that is] to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth [have been] from of old, from everlasting.

 

The manner:   Isaiah 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

The Time:   Dan 9:25  Know therefore and understand, [that] from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince [shall be] seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks:

"The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel." Mark 1:15.

    And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation.   Luke 19:44

The reason for His death and length of His ministry

Dan 9:26         And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself:

9:27     And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease,

At the time of Christ's first advent the priests and scribes of the Holy City, to whom were entrusted the oracles of God, might have discerned the signs of the times and proclaimed the coming of the Promised One. The prophecy of Micah designated His birthplace; Daniel specified the time of His advent. Micah 5:2; Daniel 9:25. God committed these prophecies to the Jewish leaders; they were without excuse if they did not know and declare to the people that the Messiah's coming was at hand. Their ignorance was the result of sinful neglect. The Jews were building monuments for the slain prophets of God, while by their deference to the great men of earth they were paying homage to the servants of Satan. Absorbed in their ambitious strife for place and power among men, they lost sight of the divine honors proffered them by the King of heaven.  {GC 313.1}

For those who reject Daniel 9 24-27 as revealing the time of Christ's ministry, please show the scripture that does give the time.  And for those who think Dan 9:24-27 does not refer to Jesus, please tell  just who they think Messiah the Prince was  and the reason this other personage was killed  for the benefit of others ,i.e., "cut off but not for himself."

 

​The scriptural examples of place and manner you supplied are quoted in the New Testament as a fulfillment, but the time reference you gave in reference to Daniel is not quoted by the New Testament-this is your spin, not the scriptures.

 

Edited May 9, 2015 by brotherly love