One of the historical "markers" in the 70 weeks -- A.D. 27

[Unchained]

A few years ago I read a book called “Handbook of Biblical Chronology” by Jack Finegan. It's pretty much the  standard work about Biblical Chronology and I'd recommend everyone interested in this issue to read this book.

Now, it's some time since I read the book but if I'm going to sum it up I'd say that ancient chronology is a difficult subject with many uncertainty factors. I don't think we help anyone by pretending that this is an easy subject.

[brotherly love]

A few years ago I read a book called “Handbook of Biblical Chronology” by Jack Finegan. It's pretty much the  standard work about Biblical Chronology and I'd recommend everyone interested in this issue to read this book.

Now, it's some time since I read the book but if I'm going to sum it up I'd say that ancient chronology is a difficult subject with many uncertainty factors. I don't think we help anyone by pretending that this is an easy subject.

​The key is not a book authored by Jack or Jim. This is the problem. The solution is study of the Bible read in light of itself, not where the majority of effort and time is spent on other books.

[Unchained]

​The key is not a book authored by Jack or Jim. This is the problem. The solution is study of the Bible read in light of itself, not where the majority of effort and time is spent on other books.

​

True, but you don't find any BC/AD dates in the Bible, do you?

[brotherly love]

​

True, but you don't find any BC/AD dates in the Bible, do you?

​Not sure how this fits into the conversation

[brotherly love]

 

 

Dan 9:26         And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself:

9:27     And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease,

At the time of Christ's first advent the priests and scribes of the Holy City, to whom were entrusted the oracles of God, might have discerned the signs of the times and proclaimed the coming of the Promised One. The prophecy of Micah designated His birthplace; Daniel specified the time of His advent. Micah 5:2; Daniel 9:25. God committed these prophecies to the Jewish leaders; they were without excuse if they did not know and declare to the people that the Messiah's coming was at hand. Their ignorance was the result of sinful neglect. The Jews were building monuments for the slain prophets of God, while by their deference to the great men of earth they were paying homage to the servants of Satan. Absorbed in their ambitious strife for place and power among men, they lost sight of the divine honors proffered them by the King of heaven.  {GC 313.1}

 

 

​I cant blame Ellen White or anyone else coming to the conclusion that the anointed who is cut off is Jesus, the problem is the translation. The problem started with the Catholic translation, and continued with the king James version.

to be fair the translators of the king James version did not have much original manuscripts at theie disposal, instead they relied heavily on the Latin vulgate.

The problem:

In  37 cases of the word mashiyach being used in the old Testament it is translated as anointed, not Messiah. Only in 2 cases is it translated as Messiah, and that is in Daniel.

This is a blatant intentional mistranslation. Even in Daniel 9 it is the word is translated as anointed instead of Messiah verse before it.

To seal up vision and prophecy,
And to anoint the Most Holy.

²⁵ “Know therefore and understand,
That from the going forth of the command
To restore and build Jerusalem
Until Messiah the Prince,
There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks;
The street^[c] shall be built again, and the wall,^[d]
Even in troublesome times.

²⁶ “And after the sixty-two weeks
Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself;

This is intentional, and is misleading.

some translations get it right, this is how it should read

to seal both vision and prophet, and to anoint a most holy place.^{[d] 25} Know therefore and understand that from the going out of the word to restore and build Jerusalem to the coming of an anointed one, a prince, there shall be seven weeks. Then for sixty-two weeks it shall be built again^[e] with squares and moat, but in a troubled time. ²⁶ And after the sixty-two weeks, an anointed one shall be cut off and shall have nothing. And the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.

Edited May 10, 2015 by brotherly love

[Stewart (SDA)]

A little, old, thought about the second prince mentioned in Daniel 9:26.

“…and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.”

This part of the prophecy was literally fulfilled in AD 70 when the Roman army, under Titus, carried forward the work of destruction.

Titus was the son of the Emperor Vespasian, and can rightfully be called a Roman prince.

It was NOT the will of this “prince” that the Temple in Jerusalem be destroyed. But, as the prophecy indicated, it would be “the people of the prince” – it would be his “people” -  his men -- that destroy the sanctuary. And this proved to be exactly the way it happened.

Titus had given explicit orders that the Temple should be preserved. But contrary to orders, his men burn it. When word reached Titus about what was happening, he quickly rises up and, in an act of desperation tries to save the building. Several of his legions follow him to extinguish the fire, but the word of God could not be broken.

Quoting the historian, Josephus.
“And now a certain person came running to Titus, and told him of this fire, as he was resting himself in his tent after the last battle; whereupon he rose up in great haste, and, as he was, ran to the holy house, in order to have a stop put to the fire; after him followed all his commanders, and after them followed the several legions, in great astonishment…” (Wars 6:4:6)

According to the prophecy, “the people of the prince” would destroy the city and the Sanctuary.

In the destruction of the Temple, God effectively dissolved their system of worship. How so? Because the worship of the Jews [as specified in the ceremonial offerings] could be offered in one place, and one place only. The Temple at Jerusalem. (Deut 12:13-14.)

That Temple was the "king-pin" of the whole Jewish religion. Remove that Temple, and the offerings must literally end. So it was; so it is.
 

[brotherly love]

A little, old, thought about the second prince mentioned in Daniel 9:26.

“…and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.”

This part of the prophecy was literally fulfilled in AD 70 when the Roman army, under Titus, carried forward the work of destruction.

Titus was the son of the Emperor Vespasian, and can rightfully be called a Roman prince.

It was NOT the will of this “prince” that the Temple in Jerusalem be destroyed. But, as the prophecy indicated, it would be “the people of the prince” – it would be his “people” -  his men -- that destroy the sanctuary. And this proved to be exactly the way it happened.

Titus had given explicit orders that the Temple should be preserved. But contrary to orders, his men burn it. When word reached Titus about what was happening, he quickly rises up and, in an act of desperation tries to save the building. Several of his legions follow him to extinguish the fire, but the word of God could not be broken.

Quoting the historian, Josephus.
“And now a certain person came running to Titus, and told him of this fire, as he was resting himself in his tent after the last battle; whereupon he rose up in great haste, and, as he was, ran to the holy house, in order to have a stop put to the fire; after him followed all his commanders, and after them followed the several legions, in great astonishment…” (Wars 6:4:6)

According to the prophecy, “the people of the prince” would destroy the city and the Sanctuary.

In the destruction of the Temple, God effectively dissolved their system of worship. How so? Because the worship of the Jews [as specified in the ceremonial offerings] could be offered in one place, and one place only. The Temple at Jerusalem. (Deut 12:13-14.)

That Temple was the "king-pin" of the whole Jewish religion. Remove that Temple, and the offerings must literally end. So it was; so it is.
 

​This still does not work:

1.The dates don't line up, and because of this a person has to pick a start date that is not applicable, and this does not work, then a person has to redefine a Jewish year.

2.The Messianic figure in chapter 7 ascends to the Ancient of days after the fourth beast. Rome does not fly since it ended in 476AD, and the first Advent did not happen after this.

3. The Temple would be reconstituted, and it was after Hunnakah ¹⁴ He said to me, “It will take 2,300 evenings and mornings; then the sanctuary will be reconsecrated.”

[Unchained]

​Not sure how this fits into the conversation

Wasn't this thread about assigning dates to biblical events? To clear up any confusion, I wasn't responding to you and my book recommendation is first and foremost about the dates in connection to the life of Christ, not the 70 weeks and Daniel 9 per se. I was trying to back up what Stewart  wrote in his first post, namely that assigning BC/AD dates to biblical events isn't as simple and straightforward as we might think from a historical point of view...

Stewart wrote in his first post --->

Now I do not doubt the correctness of the AD 27 date, and yet many historians [today it is “most” historians] do not believe that “the 15th year” was AD 27. There ARE reasonable objections to some of our prophetic teachings, and it worth being aware of these, so that when those objections are raised we don’t simply resort to contempt because we have no rational answers to give.

[brotherly love]

 

Wasn't this thread about assigning dates to biblical events? To clear up any confusion, I wasn't responding to you and my book recommendation is first and foremost about the dates in connection to the life of Christ, not the 70 weeks and Daniel 9 per se. I was trying to back up what Stewart  wrote in his first post, namely that assigning BC/AD dates to biblical events isn't as simple and straightforward as we might think from a historical point of view...

Stewart wrote in his first post --->

​sorry, thought you were responding to me.

The title does state the historical marker of the 70 weeks

[Samie]

​Generation does not mean to be not extinct, in Hebrew, in Greek or in English. This is when the Temple was destroyed, a generation after Jesus predicted it.

Jesus would have been telling an audience all too familiar with the horrors of Antiochus Epiphanese. If you read Daniel chapter 7, the Messianic figure (we now know as Jesus) ascends into Heaven after the fourth beast is destroyed. Are you looking for Jesus to ascend into Heaven after this future abomination?

This is a brilliant prophesy as Jesus came after Antiochus was destroyed and the Syrian Empire was destroyed by the Romans

​The Greek genea, genea can refer to a group of people just like the Israelites. No one's saying it means "to be not extinct". Jesus said 'this generation' shall not pass away till all this things be fulfilled (Mat 24:34). And the Israelite genea still exists.

Again, Jesus was prophesying in His Mt. Olivet discourse. Not narrating passed events (e.g. Antiochus Epiphanes).  The occurrence of the events He was referring to is NOT before, but AFTER, the timeframe of His disccourse. And He explained that the setting up of the abomination of desolation will trigger the occurrence of the great tribulation (or time of trouble), immediately followed by unusual celestial phenomena and then capped by the Second Coming.

[8thdaypriest]

There are several reasons, which I already posted, NOT to believe that an "investigative judgment" began in Heaven back in 1844.  Other than the writings of EGW, it seems like the ONLY support FOR the "investigative judgment" theory is the SDA interpretation of the 70 weeks.  THAT is why it keeps coming up again, and again, and again. 

[brotherly love]

​The Greek genea, genea can refer to a group of people just like the Israelites. No one's saying it means "to be not extinct". Jesus said 'this generation' shall not pass away till all this things be fulfilled (Mat 24:34). And the Israelite genea still exists.

Again, Jesus was prophesying in His Mt. Olivet discourse. Not narrating passed events (e.g. Antiochus Epiphanes).  The occurrence of the events He was referring to is NOT before, but AFTER, the timeframe of His disccourse. And He explained that the setting up of the abomination of desolation will trigger the occurrence of the great tribulation (or time of trouble), immediately followed by unusual celestial phenomena and then capped by the Second Coming.

​Ths is not a proper translation of the word genea. If you are to translate generation as race, then you would determine that the Jewish race is a perverse race.

Acts 2:40

⁴⁰ And with many other words he testified and exhorted them, saying, “Be saved from this perverse generation.”

There is nothing perverse about the Jewish people.

Secondly, there is no such thing as a Jewish race.

Jesus was speaking of a future event, but was describing a past event to communicate a future prophesy

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 11, 2015 by brotherly love

[Samie]

...

Jesus was speaking of a future event, but was describing a past event to communicate a future prophesy

I heartily agree that in His Olivet discourse, Jesus was communicating a future prophecy. 

The setting up of the abomination of desolation that will trigger the occurrence of the great tribulation which will be immediately followed by unusual celestial phenomena and to be capped by the Second Coming, will yet find fulfillment shortly before the Lord returns.

This chart shows the interrelationships of the end-time prophecies in the book of prophet Daniel.

[brotherly love]

I heartily agree that in His Olivet discourse, Jesus was communicating a future prophecy. 

The setting up of the abomination of desolation that will trigger the occurrence of the great tribulation which will be immediately followed by unusual celestial phenomena and to be capped by the Second Coming, will yet find fulfillment shortly before the Lord returns.

This chart shows the interrelationships of the end-time prophecies in the book of prophet Daniel.

​In order for there to be an abomination that causes desolation-God would have to reside in a Temple-but we know this is not biblical reality. As for the celestial phenom, this all happened in the Old Testament when God came in judgment on Babylon, Israel, Ninevah and Edom to name a few.  This same judgment is predicted from Jesus, and it did happen a generation later-when Jerusalem was destroyed, and the Jewish religion became impossible to practice.
Jesus is telling His audience that what happened in the past was going to happen again, but this time there was not going to be a Judas Maccabees to save them

[Samie]

The setting up of the abomination of desolation = the image of the beast does not require that God would have to reside in a temple. I see no biblical basis for this.

The unusual celestial phenomena Scriptures speak about is the darkening of the sun (solar eclipse) by day, and the darkening of the moon (lunar eclipse) come night that same day.  This had NEVER yet happened in history. If it happens, then it is time for the Second Coming!

[brotherly love]

The setting up of the abomination of desolation = the image of the beast does not require that God would have to reside in a temple. I see no biblical basis for this.

The unusual celestial phenomena Scriptures speak about is the darkening of the sun (solar eclipse) by day, and the darkening of the moon (lunar eclipse) come night that same day.  This had NEVER yet happened in history. If it happens, then it is time for the Second Coming!

​In Daniel you should note that the abomination that causes desolation is in reference to the Temple:

1.it took away the daily sacrifice from the Lord, and his sanctuary was thrown down. ¹² Because of rebellion, the Lord’s people^[a] and the daily sacrifice were given over to it.

2.the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, the rebellion that causes desolation, the surrender of the sanctuary

3.He said to me, “It will take 2,300 evenings and mornings; then the sanctuary will be reconsecrated.”

4. “Seventy ‘sevens’^[c] are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish^[d] transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the Most Holy Place.

5.now and understand this: From the time the word goes out to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One,^[f] the ruler, comes,

6.The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary.

7.In the middle of the ‘seven’^[i] he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the templehe will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him

8.³¹ “His armed forces will rise up to desecrate the temple fortress and will abolish the daily sacrifice. Then they will set up the abomination that causes desolation.

I dont know how much clearer it could be?

In Matthew and Mark, the authors were reaching out to a predominately Jewish audience^,

^{Matthew 24:15}

¹⁵ “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’^[a] spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— ¹⁶ then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.

Mark 13

¹⁴ “When you see ‘the abomination that causes desolation’^[a] standing where it^[b] does not belong—let the reader understand—then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.

^{Matthew and Mark are inserting the words "let the reader understand" because  the Jewish people knew what took place with the evil despot Antiochus-it was going to happen again in a generation.}

^{Luke is reaching out to a predominate non Jewish audience that were not familiar or educated with the historic situation of antiochus, and provides the information of what would take place}

Luke 21

²⁰ “When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. ²¹ Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains

 

As for the signs in the Heavens and the earth, it is covenant language from the Law of Moses, it points to the end of all things, but it is used in a temporal situation according to the Covenant and the blessings and curses. if Israel was faithful, then it would be used towards the enemies of the people of God. If Israel was unfaithful, then these words would be used against them according to the Covenant.

Here is an example of the coming of the Lord in destruction of Babylon

⁶ Wail, for the day of the Lord is near;
    it will come like destruction from the Almighty.^[a]
7 Because of this, all hands will go limp,
    every heart will melt with fear.
⁸ Terror will seize them,
    pain and anguish will grip them;
    they will writhe like a woman in labor.
They will look aghast at each other,
    their faces aflame.

⁹ See, the day of the Lord is coming
    —a cruel day, with wrath and fierce anger—
to make the land desolate
    and destroy the sinners within it.
¹⁰ The stars of heaven and their constellations
    will not show their light.
The rising sun will be darkened
    and the moon will not give its light.
¹¹ I will punish the world for its evil,
    the wicked for their sins.
I will put an end to the arrogance of the haughty
    and will humble the pride of the ruthless.
¹² I will make people scarcer than pure gold,
    more rare than the gold of Ophir.
¹³ Therefore I will make the heavens tremble;
    and the earth will shake from its place
at the wrath of the Lord Almighty,
    in the day of his burning anger.

 

this day of burning anger was fulfilled when the Persian Empire defeated Babylon. it may sound like the second coming if you are not familiar with the language of the Tanakh and prophets, but this passage is limited to the destruction of Babylon

for a more in depth study of this read: http://holybibleforums.com/the-prophets-and-heavens-and-the-earth/
 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Samie]

In the phrase "abomination of desolation", the word "abomination"  is from the Hebrew #Quvi shiqquts.  Elsewhere in the Old Testament, shiqquts refers to idols or images that pagans worship as their deities (see 1 Kings 11:7; 2 Kings 23:13). In the Bible, there is only one image that will cause desolation to the end-time people of God just before the Second Coming, the image of the beast (see Rev 13:15).

There was NEVER a time in historic timeline where both solar and lunar eclipses occurred on the same 24-hour day. Again, if that occurs, then the Second Coming comes right after.

[brotherly love]

In the phrase "abomination of desolation", the word "abomination"  is from the Hebrew #Quvi shiqquts.  Elsewhere in the Old Testament, shiqquts refers to idols or images that pagans worship as their deities (see 1 Kings 11:7; 2 Kings 23:13). In the Bible, there is only one image that will cause desolation to the end-time people of God just before the Second Coming, the image of the beast (see Rev 13:15).

There was NEVER a time in historic timeline where both solar and lunar eclipses occurred on the same 24-hour day. Again, if that occurs, then the Second Coming comes right after.

 

​In the time of the Maccabees, it was unfaithful Jew against faithful Jew. They were put to death if they followed God and partook in any part of the Covenant. Antiochus invaded with his armies to support this, and desolated the Temple and sanctuary. It took years to rebuild.

Jesus told His disciples that this was going to happen again-unfaithful Jew would persecute faithful Jew, and then Jerusalem and the Temple would be destroyed...in one generation. This is the prediction that Jesus spoke to that generation that it would come to reality. Not everyone witnessed the resurrection, Jesus gave this revelation so all could know that He is Divine.

You mentioned rev 13, you should notice that it is summed up with this statement:

¹⁸ This calls for wisdom. Let the person who has insight calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man.^[e] That number is 666.

-How much wisdom and insight could the recipients of this first century epistle muster if it really was about a 21 century beast?

As for the solar and lunar eclipses-why stop there! (the Bible does not say solar or lunar eclipses) What about the sky rolling up like a scroll, or the stars falling out of the sky? How about the mountains moving? When has this ever happened?

It has happened many times, but not in the sense you are understanding it. It was from the stipulations of the Law of Moses, and it is used by the prophets who were the mediators of the covenant.

Peter quotes Joel 2 in Acts 2 upon the arrival of the Holy Spirit. What happens next in Joel 2-the sun goes black, the heavens and earth go into disarray. This is judgment language, and in one generation from the time of Pentecost Jerusalem is destroyed

“And afterward,
    I will pour out my Spirit on all people.
Your sons and daughters will prophesy,
    your old men will dream dreams,
    your young men will see visions.
²⁹ Even on my servants, both men and women,
    I will pour out my Spirit in those days.
³⁰ I will show wonders in the heavens
    and on the earth,
    blood and fire and billows of smoke.
³¹ The sun will be turned to darkness
    and the moon to blood
    before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord.
³² And everyone who calls
    on the name of the Lord will be saved;
for on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem
    there will be deliverance,
    as the Lord has said,
even among the survivors
    whom the Lord calls.

This was quoted by Peter in Acts at pentecost, and was totally fulfilled upon the destruction of jerusalem

How about the destruction of Edom.

Isaiah 34:3-5, "Their slain also shall be cast out, and their stink shall come up out of their carcases, and the mountains shall be melted with their blood. And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree. For my sword shall be bathed in heaven: behold, it shall come down upon Idumea, and upon the people of my curse, to judgment."

 

[brotherly love]

​

Stewart, thanks  for posting this as it adds another element to help place the 70 week prophecy in its proper position in time and place.

 

 

Earlier in chapter 8 when Daniel is describing the exploits of the various beasts/kings he he does not say the people or host of the beast or king did this or that, but rather Daniel attributes their conquests to the beasts or kings themselves..

 

 

Dan 8:4 I saw the ram pushing westward, and northward, and southward; so that no beasts might stand before him, neither [was there any] that could deliver out of his hand; but he did according to his will, and became great.

 

Dan 8:7  And I saw him come close unto the ram, and he was moved with choler against him, and smote the ram, and brake his two horns: and there was no power in the ram to stand before him, but he cast him down to the ground, and stamped upon him: and there was none that could deliver the ram out of his hand. 

 

 But not so  when speaking of the second prince in Dan 9 ,for as you posted,historians note that it is not the prince that destroys the Jewish temple, but his troops,i.e., his people. they do so in spite of his commands to the contrary

 

 

Dan 9:26  and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof [shall be] with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

 

 

Interesting also, is how inspiration depicts the exploits of the papal power in Dan 8 . It describes this king as destroying mightily but not in his own power. The pope had no conquering army of his own, but he had knigs of various nations doing his biddings. This distinguishes this king from all the others that had gone before.

 

Dan 8:24         And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practice, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people 

​First of all, a believer in God is forbidden to spread false reports and bear false witness. The only way a person can apply the Catholic church into Daniel or even revelation is by using imagination and speculation combined with hate and prejudice as a tool. There is no wiggle room here. Martin Luther called the Pope the antiChrist, and the Pope turned around and called Martin Luther the antichrist-both of these people used the Bible as a weapon to further their agenda of slander.

You are in good company, dispensationalists also bear false witness against people they disagree with, they have slandered and ruined many peoples reputations-every president they did not vote for, heads of corporations and heads of state-AntiChrist roulette would be just as effective and factual.

The Bible does not give a person carte blanche to do what you and others have done so many times and have been 100 percent wrong 100 percent of the time. You either have to sit back and wait if you want this to be in your future-you dont have the option of slander and false witness.

We can discuss the previous wrongs of a Pope or Martin Luther, but we also need to know the subject before we do this.

Lets take a look at "not his own power"

Dan 8:24         And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practice, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people 

-You left out much in the way of context, and just translated power to mean what you want it to mean.

²⁴ He will become very strong, but not by his own power. He will cause astounding devastation and will succeed in whatever he does. He will destroy those who are mighty, the holy people. ²⁵ He will cause deceit to prosper, and he will consider himself superior. When they feel secure, he will destroy many and take his stand against the Prince of princes. Yet he will be destroyed, but not by human power.

-In context this would mean the person/king would be supernaturally empowered, and then supernaturally unpowered-not by a man killing him.

Lets go a bit further with your exegesis

Dan 8:4 I saw the ram pushing westward, and northward, and southward; so that no beasts might stand before him, neither [was there any] that could deliver out of his hand; but he did according to his will, and became great.

 

Dan 8:7  And I saw him come close unto the ram, and he was moved with choler against him, and smote the ram, and brake his two horns: and there was no power in the ram to stand before him, but he cast him down to the ground, and stamped upon him: and there was none that could deliver the ram out of his hand. 

 

The vision of chapter 8 is illustrated with a ram and a goat representing the kings and countries/empires that would rule Covenant Israel-not a papacy

 

 The two-horned ram that you saw represents the kings of Media and Persia. ²¹ The shaggy goat is the king of Greece, and the large horn between its eyes is the first king.

Normally, a king or a ruler does not personally destroy a city single handed,he uses armies . Hitler bombed London, but he did not do it himself.

Notice that the text says the shaggy goat is the king of Greece, and the large horn is the first King-this would be Alexander the Great, who really was the first and last king of the unified Greek Empire that broke into four Greek kingdoms-the little horn would arise from one of the four Greek kingdoms-Antiochus IV.

Lets keep going

Dan 9:26  and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof [shall be] with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

 

Notice it says the people of the prince. In its historical context this would not have been just armies, it would also include the Jewish people who turned away from God and were Greek Hellenists allied with Antiochus. It was also Jews who desecrated the Temple-this was happening before Antiochus came.

 

“In the latter part of their reign, when rebels have become completely wicked, a fierce-looking king, a master of intrigue, will arise.

 

 “His armed forces will rise up to desecrate the temple fortress and will abolish the daily sacrifice. Then they will set up the abomination that causes desolation. ³² With flattery he will corrupt those who have violated the covenant, but the people who know their God will firmly resist him.

 

The context of the latter part of their reign is just before this statement

 

 The two-horned ram that you saw represents the kings of Media and Persia. ²¹ The shaggy goat is the king of Greece, and the large horn between its eyes is the first king. ²² The four horns that replaced the one that was broken off represent four kingdoms that will emerge from his nation but will not have the same power.

 

-Only 2 of the four Greek kingdoms is mentioned in Daniel because only two out of the four rules Covenant Israel-the king of the North and the south.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Samie]

     . . .

As for the solar and lunar eclipses-why stop there! (the Bible does not say solar or lunar eclipses) What about the sky rolling up like a scroll, or the stars falling out of the sky? How about the mountains moving? When has this ever happened?

It has happened many times,  . . .

​When the Bible says "the sun shall be darkened", it means solar eclipse for me; When it says "the moon shall not give her light" it means lunar eclipse.for me. Again, both solar and lunar eclipses occurring on the same 24-hour day had NEVER happened yet in history.  But earthquakes, meteoric swarms and thunderstorms had.

[Samie]

Daniel 8:14-17   14 And he said to me, "For two thousand three hundred days; then the sanctuary shall be cleansed."  15 Then it happened, when I, Daniel, had seen the vision and was seeking the meaning, that suddenly there stood before me one having the appearance of a man.  16 And I heard a man's voice between the banks of the Ulai, who called, and said, "Gabriel, make this man understand the vision."  17 So he came near where I stood, and when he came I was afraid and fell on my face; but he said to me, "Understand, son of man, that the vision refers to the time of the end." 

[Samie]

It is shown in this chart that the 2300 days will end at the Second Coming.

[brotherly love]

​When the Bible says "the sun shall be darkened", it means solar eclipse for me; When it says "the moon shall not give her light" it means lunar eclipse.for me. Again, both solar and lunar eclipses occurring on the same 24-hour day had NEVER happened yet in history.  But earthquakes, meteoric swarms and thunderstorms had.

​How about the sky rolling up like a scroll, or the stars falling out of the sky. The prophets use this language when judgment was pronounced in situation like Bablylon, Edom and others....

you just cant pick one or two out of the mouths of the prophets and redefine it-you have to include all judgment language

[brotherly love]

Daniel 8:14-17   14 And he said to me, "For two thousand three hundred days; then the sanctuary shall be cleansed."  15 Then it happened, when I, Daniel, had seen the vision and was seeking the meaning, that suddenly there stood before me one having the appearance of a man.  16 And I heard a man's voice between the banks of the Ulai, who called, and said, "Gabriel, make this man understand the vision."  17 So he came near where I stood, and when he came I was afraid and fell on my face; but he said to me, "Understand, son of man, that the vision refers to the time of the end." 

 

how about this then:

¹³ “As for you, go your way till the end. You will rest, and then at the end of the days you will rise to receive your allotted inheritance.”

The word end is used twice. Do they both mean the end of the world? No. context tells us the meaning. The first context is the end of the life of Daniel, the second is the final resurrection day

Context is key

The context is the end of the foreign exile and foreign control of covenant Israel with the 70 weeks

As he came near the place where I was standing, I was terrified and fell prostrate. “Son of man,”^[b] he said to me, “understand that the vision concerns the time of the end.”

¹⁸ While he was speaking to me, I was in a deep sleep, with my face to the ground. Then he touched me and raised me to my feet.

¹⁹ He said: “I am going to tell you what will happen later in the time of wrath, because the vision concerns the appointed time of the end.^{[c] 20} The two-horned ram that you saw represents the kings of Media and Persia. ²¹ The shaggy goat is the king of Greece, and the large horn between its eyes is the first king. ²² The four horns that replaced the one that was broken off represent four kingdoms that will emerge from his nation but will not have the same power.

The time of the end concerns the time of wrath. The time of wrath was the exile of the covenant people and the occupation of the land by the 4 empires. This passage lists three of them Mede, Persia and Greece. It leaves out Babylon. The four Greek kingdom that emerge from the Greek Empire are Lysimachus, Cassander, Seleucus, and Ptolemy. The little horn emerges from the Seleucid kingdom. He takes away the sacrifice and persecutes the faithful assembly of the Tanakh                

[Samie]

    . . .

As he came near the place where I was standing, I was terrified and fell prostrate. “Son of man,”^[b] he said to me, “understand that the vision concerns the time of the end.”

¹⁸ While he was speaking to me, I was in a deep sleep, with my face to the ground. Then he touched me and raised me to my feet.

¹⁹ He said: “I am going to tell you what will happen later in the time of wrath, because the vision concerns the appointed time of the end.^{[c] 20} The two-horned ram that you saw represents the kings of Media and Persia. ²¹ The shaggy goat is the king of Greece, and the large horn between its eyes is the first king. ²² The four horns that replaced the one that was broken off represent four kingdoms that will emerge from his nation but will not have the same power.

The time of the end concerns the time of wrath. The time of wrath was the exile of the covenant people and the occupation of the land by the 4 empires. . . .               

Here's what Scriptures say about the "time of wrath" at the "time of the end"?

NIV Romans 2:

5 But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God's wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed.  6 God "will give to each person according to what he has done." 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.  8 But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.

From the Bible, when will God through Christ reward each person according to what each has done?

NIV Matthew 16:27   For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father's glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what he has done.

NIV Revelation 22:12   "Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done.

The Second Coming concerns the time of the end (see Matt 24:14).