GayatfootofCross Posted July 7, 2015 Posted July 7, 2015 There are two gays in this thread who do not promote homosexual behaviour. I am sure they have both endured both support and condemnation from all sort of people. It would be interesting to read their take on what attitude non-gays could take towards them that is helpful and not harmful. I found an honest Article here that says it much better than me. GBU Gail,Thank you for the Above! It is almost like a balm of calm when I see your posts. . And LifeHiscost.. GBU This article here might help you regarding people known as Gay. "Would you also consider those who commit adultery, murder, rape, child molestation, etc. a "sweet part" of the church (body of Christ), especially if they promote their freedom to choose that behavior will not be condemned by God (Jesus)? " LifeHicost .. of course they were always gays in church. You actually think that just the very fact someone who has same sex attraction automatically means - does not desire the Desire of Ages? Oh BOY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (its actually very regrettably common perception among too many Christians) . So much ignorance on this topic. No Offence LifeHiscost, You expose a real serious issue in our Church I'm am addressing on this post. Not laser beamed at you. I see it all over here. Deeply It shows regarding others as less than. ................................................................................................................................................ Stop Comparing Your Lust to My Sexual Orientation Admitting that I’m gay doesn’t mean I’m embracing sin. It means I’m being honest. by Matthias Roberts “Just because you’re attracted to men doesn’t mean that you should accept it.” I’ve heard the words often. “The other day, my best friend’s husband admitted in our small group that he struggles with lust. My pastor said that most men struggle with lust. Since men are naturally inclined to this, does that mean that they should just accept it? It’s ‘natural’ for them, isn’t it?” Usually, this is followed by a slight smile, as if they’ve dealt the final blow and won the conversation. The idea is fairly simple: gay people shouldn’t accept their sexuality just like men shouldn’t accept their propensity to lust. It is an argument against the idea that homosexuality is naturally occurring and thus acceptable — “it’s the way I am.” Men, according to this argument, have a strong drive towards lust. If gay people can accept their sexuality, why shouldn’t lusting men be able to act on their attractions? The connection makes sense on a surface level — both speak about sexuality, but that’s where the similarities end. Besides promoting an animalistic view of the male sex drive, this argument exposes ignorance in the church about human sexuality, and it is causing damage in the process. “The attraction is not the lust.” My sexuality, our sexualities are not lust. There is a fundamental difference here. Lust, in the sexual sense (which is the sense I will be referring to in the course of this piece), requires an attraction. That attraction is oriented toward something, usually men, women, or both. This attraction is where we get our spectrum of sexuality. But, the attraction is not the lust. It is a byproduct of our sexual orientations, not the other way around. In other words, lust necessitates sexual orientation but sexual orientation does not necessitate lust. When I was growing up, I would go to youth groups and summer camps where on certain nights they would separate the men from the women in order to have “real talk time.” We would go out into the woods, build campfires, and spend several hours talking about lust and women. We would learn strategies on how to guard ourselves against lust. These strategies were many things, but none of them were attempts to completely remove attraction to women. I can imagine the silence if someone were to raise his hand and proclaim, “I know! What if we just stopped liking girls?” In these circles, it is assumed that it’s possible to hold one’s own sexuality without lusting — that’s what we were being trained to do as Christian young men. “Admitting my sexual orientation is not acting upon it.” Yet, strangely, this idea doesn’t often carry over to homosexuality (and it’s virtually nonexistent in popular ideas around bisexuality). While many churches are now teaching that homosexual desire is not in itself sinful, the persistence of this lust argument is evidence that the message isn’t actually believed. There is pressure in many of these same churches to not accept one’s sexual orientation if it is anything different from the majority. In my teen years, I believed that if I used the word “gay” to describe myself, I would be giving myself over to Satan. Because of this, I couldn’t utter the word out loud until I was in my twenties and instead chose Christianese identifiers like “same-sex attracted.” As my friend Jonah eloquently points out in a recent piece, within many of our churches we teach that “experiencing same-sex attraction isn’t a sin,” while also telling LGBT people that they must be constantly “fighting it,” “battling it,” or “taking up their crosses.” There’s a disparity between these sentiments. As with heterosexual people, lust can be an outflow of homosexuality. But that lust is not what bisexual, lesbian, and gay people are “embracing” when we come to terms with our sexuality. Neither is promiscuity, or flamboyance, or any other thing stereotypically associated with the so-called “gay lifestyle.” By accepting our sexualities, we are naming something that is true about our experience. Admitting my sexual orientation — to myself and others — is not acting upon it. It is possible to be certain of one’s sexual orientation without engaging in sexual activity (case in point, I’ve never even held hands with someone in a romantic way, and yet I am certain that I am gay). It should be a given in faith communities, even in communities where sexual activity is reserved for male-female marriages, that there is space to admit and accept one’s own sexual orientation. For me, to say that I am gay is to say that I am sexually attracted to men. Anything else would be a lie. “Honesty should be fostered and celebrated.” The argument comparing lust and sexual orientation, and others like it, expose an ignorance around sexuality within the church. This is causing damage because it makes it difficult to have productive conversations around sexuality. If sexual orientation is misunderstood as being sinful, or is compared to something that is sinful, environments are created where it is not safe for LGBT people to bring their full experiences. We cannot turn off our sexual orientations with a switch, we cannot simply confess them and stop experiencing them, but they are something that we can hide from others. Unfortunately, one of those places where hiding is often required is in the church. To combat this, it is important for faith communities to foster understanding around what sexual orientation is (attraction towards certain genders and gender expressions) and what it is not (lust, sin). This understanding builds the ground for open conversations around sexuality, morality, and theology. Too often, I walk into conversations around faith and sexuality where it becomes abundantly clear that some people in the conversation have no idea what they are talking about. Yet, they present themselves as experts. These conversations are nearly impossible to navigate and they rarely ever produce meaningful dialogue. Without understanding, we end up talking past each other and drive each other away. Stop comparing sexual orientation to lust. Lust requires orientation. Orientation does not require lust. Coming to terms with my sexuality does not mean I am embracing sin. It does mean that I am being honest about my experience. Regardless of what we believe about what I should do with that experience (the morality question), that honesty should be fostered and celebrated. May we be people who create these spaces ....................... True words in article above.... please give it a listen and a ponder. Who knows what might Happen... ... For God to actually give you unction of His Sweet Spirit to be able to speak into the LGBTIQQAA hearts? In the future I may turn this into a thread with added input from me. JoeMo 1 Quote For all Eternity God waited in anticipation for You to show up to give You a Message - YOUR INCLUDED !!! { a merry dance }?️? " If you tarry 'til you're better You will never come at all " .. "I Will Rise" by the late great saved Glen Campbell If your picture of God is starting to feel too good to be true, you're starting to move in the right direction. "My bounty is as boundless as the sea, My love as deep; the more I give to thee, The more I have, for both are infinite." Romeo and Juliet
Administrators debbym Posted July 8, 2015 Administrators Posted July 8, 2015 Debbym, I can see that you're trying to express patience and gentleness to people so they can come to Jesus eventually. And, correct me if I'm wrong about you, but you seem to be in agreement that homosexuality is a sin. But your position is confusing and I think you jump too quickly to the conclusion that everyone who has clearly made their stance on this thread is in someway mean to people who practice homosexuality. And you seem to be under the impression that people who are more apparent about their position are in need of correction concerning how they interact with people offline. i do not struggle to show kindness and gentleness, either i am tuned to Jesus and have His Spirit or i don't. And the Spirit is wooing and speaking to every soul at all times and in all place to draw them to know God, and turn from themselves and live. And there is no patience like the patience of God, no Love like His love, nothing in this world compares to His glory and holiness, and purity of kindness and love and graciousness. Ps 147, "God is gracious in all that he does." Humanity is not gracious. Without God's grace there is no graciousness. Everything that proceeds from the Holy Spirit is Holy, everything that proceeds from our flesh is fleshly and polluted, and impure. Everyone falls short of the glory of God. Everyone's a sinner by nature, inclusively, everyone. I have no idea how anyone here really personally relates to sexually involved gays in gay relationships, that really is not my issue here. i would place the interest of the love of God above every other agenda. It is not complicated, it speaks for itself. i don't think politicizing spiritual issues is helpful. i would not encourage or support that. I let the Holy Spirit do the work of sin conviction, i am just not very good at that. thanks for your candid thoughts. i can imagine how you came to some of your ideas, but i don't think that i feel that way about anyone. i really don't know how anyone is relating offline, just kind of responding to this very flat world of text communication. 90% percent of communication is nonverbal and that is generally all missing in this kind of forum. Tom Wetmore and GayatfootofCross 2 Quote deb Love awakens love. Let God be true and every man a liar.
GayatfootofCross Posted July 11, 2015 Posted July 11, 2015 There are two gays in this thread who do not promote homosexual behaviour. I am sure they have both endured both support and condemnation from all sort of people. It would be interesting to read their take on what attitude non-gays could take towards them that is helpful and not harmful. I found an honest Article here that says it much better than me. GBU Gail,Thank you for the Above! ................................................................................................................................................ Stop Comparing Your Lust to My Sexual Orientation Admitting that I’m gay doesn’t mean I’m embracing sin. It means I’m being honest. by Matthias Roberts “Just because you’re attracted to men doesn’t mean that you should accept it.” I’ve heard the words often. “The other day, my best friend’s husband admitted in our small group that he struggles with lust. My pastor said that most men struggle with lust. Since men are naturally inclined to this, does that mean that they should just accept it? It’s ‘natural’ for them, isn’t it?” Usually, this is followed by a slight smile, as if they’ve dealt the final blow and won the conversation. The idea is fairly simple: gay people shouldn’t accept their sexuality just like men shouldn’t accept their propensity to lust. It is an argument against the idea that homosexuality is naturally occurring and thus acceptable — “it’s the way I am.” Men, according to this argument, have a strong drive towards lust. If gay people can accept their sexuality, why shouldn’t lusting men be able to act on their attractions? The connection makes sense on a surface level — both speak about sexuality, but that’s where the similarities end. Besides promoting an animalistic view of the male sex drive, this argument exposes ignorance in the church about human sexuality, and it is causing damage in the process. “The attraction is not the lust.” My sexuality, our sexualities are not lust. There is a fundamental difference here. Lust, in the sexual sense (which is the sense I will be referring to in the course of this piece), requires an attraction. That attraction is oriented toward something, usually men, women, or both. This attraction is where we get our spectrum of sexuality. But, the attraction is not the lust. It is a byproduct of our sexual orientations, not the other way around. In other words, lust necessitates sexual orientation but sexual orientation does not necessitate lust. When I was growing up, I would go to youth groups and summer camps where on certain nights they would separate the men from the women in order to have “real talk time.” We would go out into the woods, build campfires, and spend several hours talking about lust and women. We would learn strategies on how to guard ourselves against lust. These strategies were many things, but none of them were attempts to completely remove attraction to women. I can imagine the silence if someone were to raise his hand and proclaim, “I know! What if we just stopped liking girls?” In these circles, it is assumed that it’s possible to hold one’s own sexuality without lusting — that’s what we were being trained to do as Christian young men. “Admitting my sexual orientation is not acting upon it.” Yet, strangely, this idea doesn’t often carry over to homosexuality (and it’s virtually nonexistent in popular ideas around bisexuality). While many churches are now teaching that homosexual desire is not in itself sinful, the persistence of this lust argument is evidence that the message isn’t actually believed. There is pressure in many of these same churches to not accept one’s sexual orientation if it is anything different from the majority. In my teen years, I believed that if I used the word “gay” to describe myself, I would be giving myself over to Satan. Because of this, I couldn’t utter the word out loud until I was in my twenties and instead chose Christianese identifiers like “same-sex attracted.” As my friend Jonah eloquently points out in a recent piece, within many of our churches we teach that “experiencing same-sex attraction isn’t a sin,” while also telling LGBT people that they must be constantly “fighting it,” “battling it,” or “taking up their crosses.” There’s a disparity between these sentiments. As with heterosexual people, lust can be an outflow of homosexuality. But that lust is not what bisexual, lesbian, and gay people are “embracing” when we come to terms with our sexuality. Neither is promiscuity, or flamboyance, or any other thing stereotypically associated with the so-called “gay lifestyle.” By accepting our sexualities, we are naming something that is true about our experience. Admitting my sexual orientation — to myself and others — is not acting upon it. It is possible to be certain of one’s sexual orientation without engaging in sexual activity (case in point, I’ve never even held hands with someone in a romantic way, and yet I am certain that I am gay). It should be a given in faith communities, even in communities where sexual activity is reserved for male-female marriages, that there is space to admit and accept one’s own sexual orientation. For me, to say that I am gay is to say that I am sexually attracted to men. Anything else would be a lie. “Honesty should be fostered and celebrated.” The argument comparing lust and sexual orientation, and others like it, expose an ignorance around sexuality within the church. This is causing damage because it makes it difficult to have productive conversations around sexuality. If sexual orientation is misunderstood as being sinful, or is compared to something that is sinful, environments are created where it is not safe for LGBT people to bring their full experiences. We cannot turn off our sexual orientations with a switch, we cannot simply confess them and stop experiencing them, but they are something that we can hide from others. Unfortunately, one of those places where hiding is often required is in the church. To combat this, it is important for faith communities to foster understanding around what sexual orientation is (attraction towards certain genders and gender expressions) and what it is not (lust, sin). This understanding builds the ground for open conversations around sexuality, morality, and theology. Too often, I walk into conversations around faith and sexuality where it becomes abundantly clear that some people in the conversation have no idea what they are talking about. Yet, they present themselves as experts. These conversations are nearly impossible to navigate and they rarely ever produce meaningful dialogue. Without understanding, we end up talking past each other and drive each other away. Stop comparing sexual orientation to lust. Lust requires orientation. Orientation does not require lust. Coming to terms with my sexuality does not mean I am embracing sin. It does mean that I am being honest about my experience. Regardless of what we believe about what I should do with that experience (the morality question), that honesty should be fostered and celebrated. May we be people who create these spaces ....................... True words in article above.... please give it a listen and a ponder. Who knows what might Happen... ... For God to actually give you unction of His Sweet Spirit to be able to speak into the LGBTIQQAA hearts? In the future I may turn this into a thread with added input from me. Home > Opinion > Liana Aghajanian Intersections: A church in Glendale stands out for its inclusiveness Columnist Liana Aghajanian praises Glendale City Church's spirit of love to the LGBT community Email Share 227 By Liana Aghajanian July 8, 2015 | 7:12 p.m. Editor's note: This is the second in a two-part series of columns. Part one was posted June 24.Carlos Martinez knew what a difference the Seventh-day Adventist Glendale City Church had made in his life. When he told his Bible study group he was gay, he received overwhelming love and support. When he slowly succumbed to AIDS, he received visitors from church around the clock at a time when no one dared to interact with AIDS patients. When he died, Rudy Torres remembers 900 people attending his funeral.Just before he passed, he told Torres, then a pastor at Glendale City Church, exactly what kind of legacy he wanted to leave behind.Martinez left $7,000 to the church and told Torres to invest it. The church created an endowment fund with the contribution that grew to $2 million, and, with it, created new programs, some of which further helped to create a more compassionate atmosphere.Soon after Martinez’s death, Torres and pastor Mitch Henson, who was called “among the most courageous pioneers of inclusion for LGBT adventists,” by the Adventist magazine, Spectrum, realized that no other pastors in Glendale were conducting funerals for AIDs victims.So, the two pastors took it upon themselves to do the job — regardless of the person’s denomination. Their mission was simple: to accept and to love and leave everything else up to God.Martinez and their newfound outreach set a precedent in many ways for Glendale City Church.“It has absolutely changed that church into an inclusive loving community,” Torres said. The church never advertised itself as a haven for the LGBT community, but they didn’t have to — that atmosphere was already created.For most Seventh-day Adventists, being an adherent is not just a matter of religion, it is a matter of life, the kind of thing that manifests itself in everything from education to career and social circles, where coming out as gay means losing pretty much everything one has ever known and starting all over again.In a denomination with 18 million adherents worldwide, where divorce is taboo, anti-gay summits are held and LGBT members live in a perpetual state of “Don’t Ask Don’t Tell,” according to the LGBT advocacy group, the Human Rights Campaign, the Glendale City Church is one of a kind.It’s a place where, unlike many other Seventh-day Adventist churches, its members have never had to choose between who they really are and what they believe in.After an engaging Saturday service, in a room at the Glendale City Church, I met the men from the LGBT community who have found acceptance within these walls. They shared their stories with me, which were at once moving, funny and insightful.Jesse Martin has been here for 31 years and said the church felt like “home.”“I just came to a church where I could be me, not flaunting my gayness but just because I wanted to be loved and because I wanted to love everybody else,” he said.The general acceptance found here is a point everyone made. To some in the Seventh-day Adventist faith, the church was known as the “Pink Church,” because of its ability to attract LGBT members. But to the people who actually worship at the Glendale City Church, it’s just the kind of compassionate atmosphere they’ve always known here.“There are churches that are gay churches, but this is not a gay church,” said Tom Chatt, who married into the church. “It’s just a welcoming church, where people are welcome, whatever their thing is.”In fact, after digging into the history of the over-100-year-old congregation, Dave Ferguson found that, going back all the way to the 1940s, the Glendale City Church had become a more diverse, inclusive place, welcoming people who felt isolated from situations, whether it was divorce or interracial marriage.Ferguson himself was raised as an Adventist. He got married and had a son and tried desperately to change his orientation, knowing that if he didn’t, he would lose everything he had ever known.After he had come to a point where he knew he was ready to start letting people know who he really was, he transferred to Glendale City Church and eventually got involved with the endowment that Martinez helped created so many years before.“It’s kind of been full circle with the endowment, that a gay man helped to start it and a gay man helped it to go forward,” Ferguson said.At the time that Ferguson joined, the Glendale City Church, at least in California, was discreetly known as a place where Adventist LGBT people would be welcomed, and eventually it had enough LGBT members to fill up several pews, which became known as the “Pink Pews.”Though attendance and membership has dwindled overall, the church occasionally sees new LGBT members amongst the mix.“Some people have become members here because they were kicked out of their own church,” current senior pastor Todd Leonard said. “They’ll be asked to step down from doing a Bible study or playing the organ or singing in the choir, if they don’t renounce to the leadership their orientation, the church may take action or remove them, so we’ve kind of been a refuge.”And then, sometimes, this refuge gets people like Daniel Chaney through its doors who aren’t exactly sure what they believe, but know they will be welcomed here regardless.Chaney, whose father was a preacher, grew up in small towns in rural Montana, struggling with his sexuality.“When I realized I was not like the other boys, I just accepted that I was going to be cast into hell at any moment. I felt so sinful,” he said. “I never in my lifetime felt that I would see a welcoming church — I thought maybe a welcoming city or community program, but a church?”Chaney is a singer who has been hired at many churches of various denominations where the messages have been less than welcoming and “ridiculously homophobic,” to the point where he felt a frustrating emotional struggle and eventually quit. But when Glendale City Church called him needing a tenor, the choice to take the job was easy.“I said, ‘You know what? I will,’ because I knew up here I’m not going to feel like that ever,” he said. “It’s just really refreshing that this church makes a point of their inclusiveness.”The church is now focused on how to take that inclusivity toward its immediate community. Under Leonard’s direction, a youth orchestra was created to provide for kids in the city who don’t have access to music training because of socioeconomic issues.Partnering up with other religious and city organizations, they’ve also created an independent program called the Glendale Communitas Initiative to help people in the community move from crisis to stability.“The desire to be a safe space goes beyond the LGBT community,” Leonard said.Faith is difficult and complicated and often a struggle, but at Glendale City Church, there’s a particular kind of spirit, not just something you feel or read or hear about. It’s a spirit in motion, one that you can actually see making a big, genuine difference to many people. In an increasingly hostile world, it’s a spirit worth keeping alive. -- Gail 1 Quote For all Eternity God waited in anticipation for You to show up to give You a Message - YOUR INCLUDED !!! { a merry dance }?️? " If you tarry 'til you're better You will never come at all " .. "I Will Rise" by the late great saved Glen Campbell If your picture of God is starting to feel too good to be true, you're starting to move in the right direction. "My bounty is as boundless as the sea, My love as deep; the more I give to thee, The more I have, for both are infinite." Romeo and Juliet
GayatfootofCross Posted July 11, 2015 Posted July 11, 2015 The Friday Cover To StraightAnd Back My life as an ex-ex-gay man. 6779 Shares 391 Shares 18 Shares Email Comment Paginated Print "I may have the genetic coding that I'm inclined to be an alcoholic, but I have the desire not to do that, and I look at the homosexual issue the same way." – Texas Gov. Rick Perry *** There was a time in my life when I used to sound a lot like Rick Perry. In fact, for more than ten years I was one of the nation’s leading spokesmen for the “ex-gay” movement. I traveled the country telling audiences that being gay was a preventable condition, and it could be treated if only you followed a simple plan, obeyed God and sought repentance for your sins. “Ladies and gentlemen, homosexuality is not a genetic, inborn condition,” I would say. “It is the result of traceable causes that, once unraveled, can bring about understanding and transformation in the life of one who is motivated and submitted to God.” Oh, I was a believer: Homosexuality was just WRONG. And I was Exhibit A, a self-declared convert who had managed to overcome my own shameful gay past. I even appeared on the cover of Newsweek magazine in 1998, posing alongside my wife as a poster boy for “going straight.” And I was happy to do it: Those stories gave me a national platform to advocate for what is called “gay reparative therapy”—basically, convincing gay people that they were sexually “broken” and could be provided with a way to change. My wife Anne—herself an ex-lesbian—and our three sons were often put forward as evidence of how to accomplish this. Anne and I even wrote a book together preaching the gay-to-straight gospel, Love Won Out: How God's Love Helped 2 People Leave Homosexuality and Find Each Other. (Sign up for Politico Magazine's Friday Cover email) But I was in denial. It wasn’t in fact true, any of it. Worse than being wrong, it was harmful to many people—and caused me years of pain in my own life. Which is why I have this to say to the Rick Perrys of the world: You don’t understand this issue. At all. Sure, I was gratified to hear that at an event this week, Perry appeared to regret his remarks comparing homosexuality to alcoholism. “I stepped right in it,” he admitted. But this wasn’t just some political mistake. What worries me more is the ignorance betrayed by Perry’s comments—an ignorance that I believe is still widespread among conservatives in the straight world—about what being gay means. The kind of ignorance revealed by those in Perry’s Texas Republican Party who recently inserted a plank in their party platform declaring homosexuality to be a “chosen behavior” and recognizing the “legitimacy and efficacy” of gay reparative therapy. Luckily, it’s true that across our nation, life is dramatically and rapidly improving for gay people, and it’s encouraging that same-sex marriage has found favor in courts across the land, and is coming to be viewed as legitimate by a majority of Americans, according to polls. But we are not through yet. As long as this widespread misunderstanding in the straight world about homosexuality persists, that it is a choice or a “lifestyle,” as Perry put it, not only will we never be fully accepted by society, some of us will remain unable to accept ourselves. It’s internalized homophobia: you hate what you are. It is a form of self-inflicted torture that has haunted me my entire life, and I do not want young gay women and men today to go through what I went through. I want to tell them—and Rick Perry: We are not broken, damaged, inferior or throwaways. We are created in the image of God—just like everyone else. *** I had known I was attracted to my own sex since I was 18. I came out as a senior in high school in Ohio and embraced my homosexuality. I found wide acceptance within my family, and I lived openly as a homosexual until the age of 24. But around that point in my life I found myself becoming very despondent, even suicidal. I attributed my unhappiness to my homosexuality. In reality, I was tremendously insecure, lonely and searching for an identity. I could no longer accept myself. At the time I first began having those doubts, in the mid-1980s, I was attending Ohio State University, where the campus pastor introduced me to Christianity. I told him, “God can’t love me because I’m gay.” The pastor replied, in essence, that this wasn’t true, that God could love me, but he added that if I continued being gay, God would not be pleased with my life. I came to believe that homosexuality was something that God was against, and if I continued to embrace it, I would not be pleasing to Him. And I very much wanted please Him. The pastor found a book in a local Christian bookstore that described a special ministry for gay people in California called Exodus, which was based on the idea that homosexuality could be changed through strong determination and a relationship with Jesus Christ. I would have crawled to get there. I signed up for a year-long residential program called “Steps Out of Homosexuality.” There were 12 of us in a house, and we ate, worked and did bible study together. We went to church together too. On Tuesday and Thursday nights, we had long discussions about various aspects of homosexuality—including the Exodus view of how it developed from a breakdown in family relationships such as that between a boy and his father. There were plenty of lapses, but we persevered. At the ministry I met a lovely woman named Anne, who was there for the same reason I was; we fell in love and married in 1992 and began having children. I stayed on at Exodus even after the program and eventually I became chairman of the North American division of Exodus, rising to become a sort of national spokesman for gay conversion. We moved to Colorado and I became involved with James Dobson’s group, Focus on the Family. I got used to speaking in front of large crowds, and giving interviews to the national media. I even traveled with a security detail, in case I was attacked. I also became a close associate of Joseph Nicolosi, a therapist and leading proponent of “reparative therapy”—the belief that homosexuality results from the faulty and arrested development of one’s “gender identity.” Reparative therapy is, by definition, based on the notion that something is “broken” in one’s identity, needing repair. You are meant to feel like damaged goods, and the therapy is designed to fix that. In a nutshell, gay conversion advocates argue that boys who grow up to be gay over-identify with their mothers and remain detached from uninvolved, weak, passive, disinterested fathers. By a similar reasoning, girls who become lesbians often fail to identify with their mothers, perceiving them as weak or victims, and are often leery and fearful of men due to emotional and or sexual trauma. I remember I was told by my Christian mentor that one thing I needed to do to increase my sense of masculinity was to quit my job as a chocolatier because I was surrounded by too many women. My mentor suggested I get a job in the business world where there were more men. I did what he said, but that only increased my struggle over being around men. And that, secretly, was always my biggest problem. I had decided to renounce my gay identity but there was still an ache in my heart for male love and companionship. I so wanted to be and to feel “normal.” I would look at men at the checkout counter wearing wedding rings, and I’d want to be one of them. I thought, if I’m straight I’ll feel normal. In those early days after my conversion, the temptations to be among my gay friends and once again be part of the gay community were so strong that I would kneel down in my bathroom and beg God to help me not be gay. And so even as I pursued this career as a professional ex-gay man, and raised a family and loved my wife, I was in utter torment. I struggled off and on with addiction and wanting to take my life. I knew I was living on the inside as two people. I wanted to believe it was true so badly that not only did I lie to other people, I primarily lied to myself. I wanted my homosexuality to change, but the truth is: For all my public rhetoric, I was never one bit less gay. Behind closed doors, many of us in the “ex-gay” leadership at Focus on the Family would even admit this to each other — and we had this conversation many times: “We know our orientation hasn’t really changed. What has changed is our behavior. Our way of life. How we see ourselves. Our sexuality has not changed.” But it only became harder to maintain the false veneer of heterosexuality, at home and at work. I was preaching to other adult gay and lesbian people a gospel that I no longer really believed in. More and more, when I’d have to get up and speak to crowds about my gay conversion, I felt like a wind-up toy. I’d go back to my hotel room, fall on the bed and start weeping. I thought, “If I have to go out and do that one more time, I will literally throw up.” I was in agony. I wasn’t easy to live with either. I was short with my children and took my anger and anxiety out on my devoted wife. I just couldn’t handle it anymore. Everything began to change in 2000, when I was photographed in a gay bar in Washington, DC. I had not gone into a gay bar since the late ‘80s, and I wasn’t looking for sex. I just wanted to be among my own kind, to feel at home, for a brief period. I was board chairman of Exodus at the time, and after the news broke I had to resign. It was an enormous public scandal. My reputation came crumbling down. I hurt my wife; hurt those who looked up to me; hurt the movement. In 2003, I abruptly decided to drop out of sight. I resigned from my ex-gay career and moved my wife and family to Oregon. I wanted to be far away from anything that reminded me of being a public figure. I went to culinary school, became a professional chef and opened a thriving catering business in Portland. I lived the life of a heterosexual married man and father. On the outside, it was a happy life, but inside I was just as torn as ever. I deeply loved my wife, Anne, who still believed in the movement, and I knew it would be extremely scandalous to embrace homosexuality after the career I’d had. But it was more and more apparent to me that I was what I always had been: gay. The older I got, the lonelier I was becoming. Three years ago, I was driving down a suburban street and I saw two men holding hands. I burst into tears. I realized that … I wanted to be one of those men. I knew my decision would hurt my wife and family, but I began to move toward authenticity. I went to see a therapist—a conservative Christian therapist. I told him, “I’m on a journey of self-discovery.” He said he didn’t believe that you had to change fundamentally who you are to be acceptable to God. I began to embrace what I had been all along. I decided to come out in the Portland gay community too, donating to some non-profits, trying to become a part of this world, to let them know I was supportive. But my past soon came to haunt me. People said, “Oh, this is the guy who once told us we needed to change.” One incident in particular hit me very hard. In 2013 I was confronted by a man in a coffee shop who was angry and had tears in his eyes. ‘The kind of message you preached kept me in depression for most of my life,” he told me. “My parents wanted me to change, I tried for years and I couldn’t do it. It devastated my life until I finally accepted I was gay.“ What he said moved me to tears, and I apologized to him. Since then he’s become a dear friend, but that’s not always been the case: I’ve now had similarly painful encounters with hundreds of people, mostly online. Up until then I hadn’t really seen or understood a lot of the pain I had been causing in my two decades as an ex-gay activist. That encounter was a beginning. As a result, I came to feel a tremendous responsibility to set the record straight publicly. A year ago, I issued a statement of apology. A lot of people I had known from the Exodus program were my main support group at this time—including the former best man at my wedding, who had come out himself. We had a Facebook page called “Ex-Ex-Gay,” with more than 400 members. Many of them were gay men who were now divorced, often after breaking some woman’s heart. Together these friends helped me draft my statement, which was then sent out by the Gay and Lesbian Task Force in Washington, D.C., to gay magazines and websites across the country. I said, in part: “Today, I do not consider myself ‘ex-gay’ and I no longer support or promote the movement. Please allow me to be clear: I do not believe that reparative therapy changes sexual orientation; in fact, it does great harm to many people. I know that countless people were harmed by things I said and did in the past, Parents, families, and their loved ones were negatively impacted by the notion of reparative therapy and the message of change. I am truly, truly sorry for the pain I have caused.” Not long ago I went to a conference of Christians who are gay and lesbian. There were more than 700 people there—many of them people harmed by organizations or ministries that felt they needed to change their sexual orientation. Afterward people began emailing and Facebooking me, telling me stories that were very much like those of my friend in the Portland coffee shop, “I wanted to be like you and your wife; you were held up as poster children. And I hated myself because I couldn’t be you.” That really rocked me. I hadn’t realized all this while I was preaching the ex-gay gospel. I’d been shielded from it. *** Today, for the first time since I was a young man, I’m not living a double life—a life that is a lie, day in and day out. I have no more secrets than the next person. Recently, my oldest son, who is 17, said this to me: “You’ve become a better dad to us, and a better person. You’re much more at peace. You don’t lose your temper. You’re calm. I accept you for who you are, Dad, and I love you.” I told him: “When you’re not fighting who you are, you’re a much better person.” It’s true. Sometimes, while I was living my double life, I was very short with them. When the gay pride parade would come around, and it was always on Father’s Day, I’d be with my sons and wife, but I would be longing to be at that parade. This past Father’s Day, I spent a glorious day with my sons but the tinge of loneliness and the longing to be watching that parade was gone… vanished. I had stopped fighting what just did not change. No doubt, my decision to move in this direction has left scars. I have hurt the people I love. But I have no regrets about embracing the path of honesty and authenticity; I believe it’s made me a kinder example of the person I couldn’t be before. Today I have no desire to get involved again in a national debate. I am happy running a business, and being true to myself and my children. My extended family accepts me as I am. I am supported by them. Still, I hope very much that Rick Perry and those many others who still want to change us will read this. And, perhaps, even understand a little bit what it really means to be gay. Read more: http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2014/06/life-as-ex-ex-gay-paulk-108090.html#ixzz3fcD2qzBn Quote For all Eternity God waited in anticipation for You to show up to give You a Message - YOUR INCLUDED !!! { a merry dance }?️? " If you tarry 'til you're better You will never come at all " .. "I Will Rise" by the late great saved Glen Campbell If your picture of God is starting to feel too good to be true, you're starting to move in the right direction. "My bounty is as boundless as the sea, My love as deep; the more I give to thee, The more I have, for both are infinite." Romeo and Juliet
LifeHiscost Posted July 12, 2015 Posted July 12, 2015 You know, GayatfootofCross, I was thinking of the main point that is different between how you serve your Master, and my premise, which I take from the Word. I was sitting here listening to Pastor Doug Batchelor relating the story of the prodigal son and the way His Father treated him when he returned. …21"And the son said to him, 'Father, I have sinned against heaven and in your sight; I am no longer worthy to be called your son.' 22"But the father said to his slaves, 'Quickly bring out the best robe and put it on him, and put a ring on his hand and sandals on his feet; 23and bring the fattened calf, kill it, and let us eat and celebrate;…Luke 15 You'll notice as soon as the father saw his son approaching from afar, he didn't wait for the son to reach the house but ran to the son and threw his own robe around him, lest any of the household should see him in his undone condition. That robe is symbolic of the robe of Christ's righteousness that covers the leprosy of sin which is washed away at the moment the prodigal asks for forgiveness and repents of his sin. When I was much younger, not yet a disciple of Christ and definitely not mature even as a "good" person, I had it in mind that someone I was responsible for would be better off dead. Not finding it necessary to give all the details but finding it important to give God's assessment of my status at that time, here's how the Word describes my estate then. 27"You have heard that it was said, 'YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY'; 28but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart....Matthew 5 Emphasis theirs' LHC I'm sure you can relate to the principle. My point is that as the leper at one time was required to carry around with himself a sign indicative of his condition, as well as voicing, "unclean, unclean", to warn any person who should come near, of their danger, I refuse to carry that sign of "unclean", nor do I expect any others to broadcast their past failures but have chosen rather to display the robe of Jesus righteousness, that He might be glorified as a result of my being washed clean by His blood, rendering me as this promise assures. …17Learn to do good; Seek justice, Reprove the ruthless, Defend the orphan, Plead for the widow.18"Come now, and let us reason together," Says the LORD, "Though your sins are as scarlet, They will be as white as snow; Though they are red like crimson, They will be like wool. 19"If you consent and obey, You will eat the best of the land;…Isaiah 1 Keep looking up! Shabbat shalom! God is Love! Jesus saves! Quote Lift Jesus up!!
GayatfootofCross Posted July 12, 2015 Posted July 12, 2015 (edited) You know, GayatfootofCross, I was thinking of the main point that is different between how you serve your Master, and my premise, which I take from the Word. I was sitting here listening to Pastor Doug Batchelor relating the story of the prodigal son and the way His Father treated him when he returned. …21"And the son said to him, 'Father, I have sinned against heaven and in your sight; I am no longer worthy to be called your son.' 22"But the father said to his slaves, 'Quickly bring out the best robe and put it on him, and put a ring on his hand and sandals on his feet; 23and bring the fattened calf, kill it, and let us eat and celebrate;…Luke 15 You'll notice as soon as the father saw his son approaching from afar, he didn't wait for the son to reach the house but ran to the son and threw his own robe around him, lest any of the household should see him in his undone condition. That robe is symbolic of the robe of Christ's righteousness that covers the leprosy of sin which is washed away at the moment the prodigal asks for forgiveness and repents of his sin. When I was much younger, not yet a disciple of Christ and definitely not mature even as a "good" person, I had it in mind that someone I was responsible for would be better off dead. Not finding it necessary to give all the details but finding it important to give God's assessment of my status at that time, here's how the Word describes my estate then. 27"You have heard that it was said, 'YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY'; 28but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart....Matthew 5 Emphasis theirs' LHC I'm sure you can relate to the principle. My point is that as the leper at one time was required to carry around with himself a sign indicative of his condition, as well as voicing, "unclean, unclean", to warn any person who should come near, of their danger, I refuse to carry that sign of "unclean", nor do I expect any others to broadcast their past failures but have chosen rather to display the robe of Jesus righteousness, that He might be glorified as a result of my being washed clean by His blood, rendering me as this promise assures. …17Learn to do good; Seek justice, Reprove the ruthless, Defend the orphan, Plead for the widow.18"Come now, and let us reason together," Says the LORD, "Though your sins are as scarlet, They will be as white as snow; Though they are red like crimson, They will be like wool. 19"If you consent and obey, You will eat the best of the land;…Isaiah 1 Keep looking up! Shabbat shalom! God is Love! Jesus saves! Hello and GBU! I think I understand your most succulent point. And if I do then my response would be ...... It is not a sin to be a homosexual any more than it is to be a heterosexual. I am fearfully and wonderfully made. As you are. and ... I know you mean well but we see my homosexuality very differently. And still do not understand why I share so much about me and my tribe. And God has not given you the right to speak into LGBTUQQAA hearts. You don't get it. GBU! #just going by what you say as of late Edited July 12, 2015 by GayatfootofCross Quote For all Eternity God waited in anticipation for You to show up to give You a Message - YOUR INCLUDED !!! { a merry dance }?️? " If you tarry 'til you're better You will never come at all " .. "I Will Rise" by the late great saved Glen Campbell If your picture of God is starting to feel too good to be true, you're starting to move in the right direction. "My bounty is as boundless as the sea, My love as deep; the more I give to thee, The more I have, for both are infinite." Romeo and Juliet
Dr. Shane Posted July 16, 2015 Posted July 16, 2015 I have read several stories about gays that have been harmed by reparative therapy. I agree that conversion ministries are not healthy. However there are healthy exit ministries that do not focus on or promise conversion. A gay person can accept themselves without feeling obligated to changing their orientation. Those that object to comparing homosexuality to alcoholism tend to show that they do not understand the disease concept of alcoholism. Conversion therapy for alcoholics does not work either and it is damaging to alcoholics. What is conversion therapy for alcoholics? It is a process that promises to turn an alcoholic into a social drinker. That is what almost all alcoholics want. They don't want to quit drinking forever and totally abstain. They want to be able to limit and control their drinking like so-called normal people. Many "hard drinkers" that drink like alcoholics can do this because they do not actually have the disease of alcoholism. However the true alcoholic must accept the stark truth that once an alcoholic, always an alcoholic. Homosexuality is much the same. There are people that engage in gay sex out of pure choice. They were not born gay nor did they develop as gay during their childhood. They simply decided to to engage in gay behavior. Now those people can walk away from the lifestyle just like a hard drinker can become a social drinker. However there are gays that did not choose to be gay. They were either born that way or developed that way during childhood. They must accept that once gay always gay. That doesn't mean they cannot learn how to abstain from the gay lifestyle. Just as an alcoholic can find freedom from drinking through total abstinence, the gay person can also find freedom. It is not easy for either of them. It is a struggle and continues for a lifetime with many. Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity
GayatfootofCross Posted July 16, 2015 Posted July 16, 2015 (edited) I have read several stories about gays that have been harmed by reparative therapy. I agree that conversion ministries are not healthy. However there are healthy exit ministries that do not focus on or promise conversion. A gay person can accept themselves without feeling obligated to changing their orientation. Those that object to comparing homosexuality to alcoholism tend to show that they do not understand the disease concept of alcoholism. Conversion therapy for alcoholics does not work either and it is damaging to alcoholics. What is conversion therapy for alcoholics? It is a process that promises to turn an alcoholic into a social drinker. That is what almost all alcoholics want. They don't want to quit drinking forever and totally abstain. They want to be able to limit and control their drinking like so-called normal people. Many "hard drinkers" that drink like alcoholics can do this because they do not actually have the disease of alcoholism. However the true alcoholic must accept the stark truth that once an alcoholic, always an alcoholic. Homosexuality is much the same. There are people that engage in gay sex out of pure choice. They were not born gay nor did they develop as gay during their childhood. They simply decided to to engage in gay behavior. Now those people can walk away from the lifestyle just like a hard drinker can become a social drinker. However there are gays that did not choose to be gay. They were either born that way or developed that way during childhood. They must accept that once gay always gay. That doesn't mean they cannot learn how to abstain from the gay lifestyle. Just as an alcoholic can find freedom from drinking through total abstinence, the gay person can also find freedom. It is not easy for either of them. It is a struggle and continues for a lifetime with many. Shane GBU Again. There is sex addiction and alcohol addiction. Escape and coping strategies and mechanisms to deal with life and issues. Same sex attraction is not that is not that in itself. How do I explain what it is be a man to a woman? Any ladies here can give an Amen? How do I explain being black to a white? How do I explain being gay to a 'Straight'? I cannot. and what arrogance it is for a white man to say 'Hey I know what it is to be black..I lived in the hood. Maybe a few are gifted like that in total empathy and experience ? Shane, If you open up a little bit, I can share what it is to be a celibate Christian gay man who lives with another celibate gay Christian man in success thru JESUS CHRIST . But maybe I'm kidding myself at this point? I know addictions of other issues and 12 steps full well. It cannot be compared to. Homosexuality is not an addition or a coping mechanism . Sex is. But even that goes deeper than sex. It is a fabric and core of my being that gets better when I learn to accept it not treat it as an object of self loathing that needs to be rid of. There is freedom in that self acceptance yet at the same time drives you to the Foot Of The CROSS. I am still in process. . Now I will say something else you may not get also and others here to will be flabbergasted. The kind of people who find themselves LGBTIQQAA are very sensitive and creative and spiritual (by and large). It can be squashed for others people's comfort or embraced and grateful as GOD permitted this in the emotional makeup of people in this broken world. about men who are straight who have gay sex? Prison or Pirates or what have you... men are looking for sexual release. Sexuality is more fluid than people realize. Sex is a force of nature and some funnel it here or there or just run loose where ever it takes them. Animal passions is a term I have heard form EGW. I see alot of ignorance and hate and blah blah blah all my life. And much of it is understandable. People are people. uhh ..again.. How do u explain what it is to be gay to a straight? I don't know what to say to people pulling out credentials of gay ministry etc. and still entirely miss the mark. This issue is close to my heart. I think you have some internalization yourself combined with your interpretation of Scriptures and that is your springboard. It is not the same and that standard cannot be applied wholly to the Community. I know you mean well Shane and that warms my heart. GBU! ......................................................................"However there are gays that did not choose to be gay. They were either born that way or developed that way during childhood. They must accept that once gay always gay." -Shane Most Christians I have talked to about this thru the years will not believe that ever. So again how do you explain what it is to be gay to a straight conservative ear plugging Christian? Edited July 16, 2015 by GayatfootofCross Quote For all Eternity God waited in anticipation for You to show up to give You a Message - YOUR INCLUDED !!! { a merry dance }?️? " If you tarry 'til you're better You will never come at all " .. "I Will Rise" by the late great saved Glen Campbell If your picture of God is starting to feel too good to be true, you're starting to move in the right direction. "My bounty is as boundless as the sea, My love as deep; the more I give to thee, The more I have, for both are infinite." Romeo and Juliet
GayatfootofCross Posted July 16, 2015 Posted July 16, 2015 (edited) How do i explain to a "have all their life" about being "have not all their life"? How do I explain what it is be a man to a woman? Any ladies here can give an Amen? How do I explain being black to a white? How do I explain being gay to a 'Straight'? I cannot. and what arrogance it is for a white man to say 'Hey I know what it is to be black..I lived in the hood. Maybe a few are gifted like that in total empathy and experience ? Edited July 16, 2015 by GayatfootofCross Quote For all Eternity God waited in anticipation for You to show up to give You a Message - YOUR INCLUDED !!! { a merry dance }?️? " If you tarry 'til you're better You will never come at all " .. "I Will Rise" by the late great saved Glen Campbell If your picture of God is starting to feel too good to be true, you're starting to move in the right direction. "My bounty is as boundless as the sea, My love as deep; the more I give to thee, The more I have, for both are infinite." Romeo and Juliet
Dr. Shane Posted July 17, 2015 Posted July 17, 2015 GBU: We simply do not agree. I obviously do not understand homosexuality in the same way you do. And you obviously do not understand alcoholism in the same way I do. That is OK. We can respectfully disagree. I do not believe homosexuality is sex addiction. Nor do I believe alcoholism is alcohol addiction. Both are much more complex disorders than that - in my understanding. Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity
GayatfootofCross Posted July 17, 2015 Posted July 17, 2015 (edited) GBU: We simply do not agree. I obviously do not understand homosexuality in the same way you do. And you obviously do not understand alcoholism in the same way I do. That is OK. We can respectfully disagree. I do not believe homosexuality is sex addiction. Nor do I believe alcoholism is alcohol addiction. Both are much more complex disorders than that - in my understanding. Well I do understand ADDICTION and the path out and what it is being gay. By experience and education. People can be dry drunks and people even able to swap one addiction for another. All very complex and individual. I think you comparing Alcoholism to Homosexuality shows lack of both of education and experience. ..maybe GBU! Shane #it is almost like a person who can't read a lic sharing his fav story he ever read. Edited July 17, 2015 by GayatfootofCross Quote For all Eternity God waited in anticipation for You to show up to give You a Message - YOUR INCLUDED !!! { a merry dance }?️? " If you tarry 'til you're better You will never come at all " .. "I Will Rise" by the late great saved Glen Campbell If your picture of God is starting to feel too good to be true, you're starting to move in the right direction. "My bounty is as boundless as the sea, My love as deep; the more I give to thee, The more I have, for both are infinite." Romeo and Juliet
GayatfootofCross Posted July 17, 2015 Posted July 17, 2015 (edited) GBU: We simply do not agree. I obviously do not understand homosexuality in the same way you do. And you obviously do not understand alcoholism in the same way I do. That is OK. We can respectfully disagree. I do not believe homosexuality is sex addiction. Nor do I believe alcoholism is alcohol addiction. Both are much more complex disorders than that - in my understanding. uhhh. nevermind and I believe If I remember right from your past sharing. You struggled with booze? I could have a bad memory. If true... GBU! amen for Victory! and somehow things lined up in your head from your experience in Ministry to compare upon your experience and ministry.. own struggles of sorts I can respect thaT Edited July 17, 2015 by GayatfootofCross Quote For all Eternity God waited in anticipation for You to show up to give You a Message - YOUR INCLUDED !!! { a merry dance }?️? " If you tarry 'til you're better You will never come at all " .. "I Will Rise" by the late great saved Glen Campbell If your picture of God is starting to feel too good to be true, you're starting to move in the right direction. "My bounty is as boundless as the sea, My love as deep; the more I give to thee, The more I have, for both are infinite." Romeo and Juliet
stinsonmarri Posted July 18, 2015 Posted July 18, 2015 (edited) I think for the most part we are truly not dealing with the issue. GayatfootofCross stated: Well I think our convictions of sin does varies to each individual. Let me make it very clear it is not up to each individual. It is up to the requirement of ELOHIM. Even though we should be respectful to all, sin will have no place in Heaven. My position is clear that the government is not the church and it must not hold to any ones religious belief. But this government has failed as all governments do against the Law of ELOHIM. What I saying is homosexual is a sin and an abomination to ELOHIM listen to what happen to Sodom. As Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them, in like manner to these, committing fornication, and going away after strange flesh, laid down an example before-times, undergoing vengeance of everlasting fire. Jude 1:7 Keep in mind that this was everlasting fire and these people was completely judged. They will not be in any resurrection because they are completely gone!!!! We must treat others correctly but we must also call sin by it right name. People who do do oral sex this is just as wrong! Please do get ugly with me just read your Bible. Rom 1: 17-32 All sinners will not make it into the Kingdom! Gayafoot, it is nice to meet you and I hope we can be friends. Happy Sabbath and be bless! Edited July 18, 2015 by stinsonmarri GayatfootofCross 1 Quote
GayatfootofCross Posted July 18, 2015 Posted July 18, 2015 (edited) I think for the most part we are truly not dealing with the issue. GayatfootofCross stated: Well I think our convictions of sin does varies to each individual. Let me make it very clear it is not up to each individual. It is up to the requirement of ELOHIM. Even though we should be respectful to all, sin will have no place in Heaven. My position is clear that the government is not the church and it must not hold to any ones religious belief. But this government has failed as all governments do against the Law of ELOHIM. What I saying is homosexual is a sin and an abomination to ELOHIM listen to what happen to Sodom. As Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them, in like manner to these, committing fornication, and going away after strange flesh, laid down an example before-times, undergoing vengeance of everlasting fire. Jude 1:7 Keep in mind that this was everlasting fire and these people was completely judged. They will not be in any resurrection because they are completely gone!!!! We must treat others correctly but we must also call sin by it right name. People who do do oral sex this is just as wrong! Please do get ugly with me just read your Bible. Rom 1: 17-32 All sinners will not make it into the Kingdom! Gayafoot, it is nice to meet you and I hope we can be friends. Happy Sabbath and be bless! GBU! stinsonmarri Thank you for your kind words. I actually shared my wonderful understanding of GOD in the Story of Sodom. If you have the time and energy and the interest to look into it would be great.,, then 5 pages of replies which i share more as well as others thoughts http://clubadventist.com/forums/topic/59810-when-i-hear-the-story-of-sodom/ GBU Again and hope to be be friends for sure. #waiting for the day when u hear Christians speak of Homosexuals as Children of God and not as a sex act. Edited July 18, 2015 by GayatfootofCross JoeMo 1 Quote For all Eternity God waited in anticipation for You to show up to give You a Message - YOUR INCLUDED !!! { a merry dance }?️? " If you tarry 'til you're better You will never come at all " .. "I Will Rise" by the late great saved Glen Campbell If your picture of God is starting to feel too good to be true, you're starting to move in the right direction. "My bounty is as boundless as the sea, My love as deep; the more I give to thee, The more I have, for both are infinite." Romeo and Juliet
Moderators Gregory Matthews Posted July 18, 2015 Moderators Posted July 18, 2015 All humans are Children of God. Some of God's children have departed and have no communication with their Father, just as happens in human families. But, God the Father eagerly waits for them to respond to His welcome and return home, unlike happens is some human families. pierrepaul, GayatfootofCross and Lauralea 3 Quote Gregory
Ron Lambert Posted July 26, 2015 Posted July 26, 2015 The Wanderer, there has got to be something that starts the final progression of attitudes and events that will lead to the popular adoption of a National Sunday Law in America. Both marriage and the Sabbath are the two divine institutions God ordained before the entry of sin. Both are based entirely upon the authority of the Creator. God is surely displeased by the easy divorce that has become common. But it is making the legal, official declaration that marriage is to be defined differently than God defined it, that constitutes a direct, official challenge to the authority of the Creator. It is no stretch at all to see that this is what will lead to the final challenge to the Creator's authority when the Sabbath is officially redefined contrary to the Creator's definition. I suspect that at this point, it is already the beginning of the end, and there is no way to stop it. End times events are on their way now. As for your question about why the elites do not respect the will of the majority of the people, that also is simple. The elites never at any time respected the will of the majority. They regard the majority of the population as being inferior in judgment and wisdom, and so their desire has always been to control the majority. Note that in Jesus' time, the same was true. The majority favored Jesus. The rulers were afraid to take action against Him openly, because of the people. So Jesus' arrest, trial, and execution were all done in ways that bypassed the people. Yet God recognized the rejection of Jesus by the national leadership as constituting rejection of Jesus by the nation. After that, the Christian church was founded upon the "priesthood of all believers," where it is individuals now who are led by God, and accept or reject Him for themselves. Quote
Ron Lambert Posted July 26, 2015 Posted July 26, 2015 I might also add that it was only the church leadership who rebelled against God's message of justification by faith in 1888, while the vast majority of the people who heard the message accepted it. Yet God's blessings to the whole church were turned aside, and the Latter Rain was withheld, and Jesus Second Coming had to be delayed. The majority choose their leadership, and therefore are responsible for it. Even when it goes contrary to what they wish. Quote
LifeHiscost Posted July 26, 2015 Posted July 26, 2015 All humans are Children of God. Some of God's children have departed and have no communication with their Father, just as happens in human families. But, God the Father eagerly waits for them to respond to His welcome and return home, unlike happens is some human families. God is Love! To all. Jesus saves! All who accept Him at His Word. Quote Lift Jesus up!!
LifeHiscost Posted July 26, 2015 Posted July 26, 2015 On 6/26/2015, 9:28:40, Ron Lambert said: I have long believed we should be tolerant of homosexuals, just as we extend tolerance to people who use tobacco or alcohol and adulterers (all these can be forgiven--even the polygamy of Biblical patriarchs). We must still, of course, point homosexuals to the Scriptures which plainly show their behavior to be judged by God as sinful, and urge them to receive therapy for what is in fact an aberrant behavior. But what God cannot be tolerant of is a direct challenge to His authority, when people presume to redefine what marriage is, defying God's definition. If same-sex unions were called unions, or partnerships, or anything other than marriage, there would be no problem. But daring to defy God's authority in one of the two divine institutions God established in Eden, before the Fall of Mankind, can only lead to the significant removal of divine protection from our nation and from our world. Today's Supreme Court 5-4 split decision is the real and true beginning of the end for America. The troubles that will now come on America in the form of natural disasters and man-made disasters, will eventually lead people to be willing to enforce a Sunday Law, where everyone is required to go to church for "moral instruction" on Sunday. If you have ever wondered what would lead to America accepting a national Sunday Law, this is it. The End of Time has begun. God is Love! Jesus saves! Quote Lift Jesus up!!
Raphael Posted September 4, 2015 Posted September 4, 2015 It's interesting to note how gays victoriously maintain the right to be gay.. Simple as that haha.. Even putting the blame on the Maker for simply making them the way they are.. Who can argue with those saying that the Maker made a mistake? Haha The USA gay right to marry is a dirty stunt by Obama.. It's a surface deep retaliation against those causing him so much trouble.. Imagine even siding with Iran and causing people to question who is the real Osama.. The Cuba stunt is of the same design as well.. If a refferendum on gay rights and marriage is say successfully brought to be done.. This minority's dirty stunt will be trashed.. But yes, as we all know when the time comes nothing can keep prophecies from being fulfilled.. Maybe perhaps only postponed? But ofcourse even with no results.. The 3 angels message flying in the air sounding their message still needs to be done.. It's like for legality purpose that warning and message has been delivered.. Thus is the nature of this message too I guess.. Quote Test me with thy might but grant me safe passage. Now, who said that?
LifeHiscost Posted September 4, 2015 Posted September 4, 2015 Two of God's ordained institutions from the beginning are being trashed on a national level, one now and another soon to come. Can we expect as a nation, for Him to continue to "shed His grace on thee"? I think not. It's time for the Lord to come and the world is becoming more and more aware of that fact. …16but this is what was spoken of through the prophet Joel: 17'AND IT SHALL BE IN THE LAST DAYS,' God says, 'THAT I WILL POUR FORTH OF MY SPIRIT ON ALL MANKIND; AND YOUR SONS AND YOUR DAUGHTERS SHALL PROPHESY, AND YOUR YOUNG MEN SHALL SEE VISIONS, AND YOUR OLD MEN SHALL DREAM DREAMS; 18EVEN ON MY BONDSLAVES, BOTH MEN AND WOMEN, I WILL IN THOSE DAYS POUR FORTH OF MY SPIRIT And they shall prophesy.…Acts 2 25“And there will be strange signs in the sun, moon, and stars. And here on earth the nations will be in turmoil, perplexed by the roaring seas and strange tides. 26People will be terrified at what they see coming upon the earth, for the powers in the heavens will be shaken. 27Then everyone will see the Son of Mane coming on a cloud with power and great glory.f 28So when all these things begin to happen, stand and look up, for your salvation is near!” 29Then he gave them this illustration: “Notice the fig tree, or any other tree. 30When the leaves come out, you know without being told that summer is near. 31In the same way, when you see all these things taking place, you can know that the Kingdom of God is near. 32I tell you the truth, this generation will not pass from the scene until all these things have taken place. 33Heaven and earth will disappear, but my words will never disappear. I'm excited as all all get out. God is Love! Jesus saves! Quote Lift Jesus up!!
whbae Posted September 4, 2015 Posted September 4, 2015 The question should be WHAT IS THE POSITION OF BIBLE on homosexuality? Quote
GayatfootofCross Posted September 4, 2015 Posted September 4, 2015 The question should be WHAT IS THE POSITION OF BIBLE on homosexuality? Agree whbae! .. and can we separate our natural aversion and the climate of society/culture going all the way back antiquity ? And take a good look at the original words and possible interpretations and context. hmm. Maybe we can start a new Thread? and of Course see what Jesus has to say while walking on Earth in the flesh. . Any Homosexuality experts here? Quote For all Eternity God waited in anticipation for You to show up to give You a Message - YOUR INCLUDED !!! { a merry dance }?️? " If you tarry 'til you're better You will never come at all " .. "I Will Rise" by the late great saved Glen Campbell If your picture of God is starting to feel too good to be true, you're starting to move in the right direction. "My bounty is as boundless as the sea, My love as deep; the more I give to thee, The more I have, for both are infinite." Romeo and Juliet
Robert Posted September 5, 2015 Posted September 5, 2015 (edited) 1. Let the one who is without sin cast the first stone (though I'm far from convinced homosexual actions and orientations are sinful, still those throwing rocks might be better occupied looking in the mirror). Wait, you can't have it both ways, Bravus. If I cast a stone at any sinner I'm being self-righteous, right? That's because self-righteousness is sin. However, so are homosexual actions sinful. Sin is sin. So condemning those who throw stones doesn't excuse those who participate in homosexual sex. Edited September 5, 2015 by Robert Quote
GayatfootofCross Posted September 5, 2015 Posted September 5, 2015 (edited) Wait, you can't have it both ways, Bravus. If I cast a stone at any sinner I'm being self-righteous, right? That's because self-righteousness is sin. However, so are homosexual actions sinful. Sin is sin. So condemning those who throw stones doesn't excuse those who participate in homosexual sex. All this talk about homosexual sex... [turns on the fan] We better be careful. Never know a When, a curious Who comes out of a Where to see ahh What and ask uhh Why. Edited September 5, 2015 by GayatfootofCross Quote For all Eternity God waited in anticipation for You to show up to give You a Message - YOUR INCLUDED !!! { a merry dance }?️? " If you tarry 'til you're better You will never come at all " .. "I Will Rise" by the late great saved Glen Campbell If your picture of God is starting to feel too good to be true, you're starting to move in the right direction. "My bounty is as boundless as the sea, My love as deep; the more I give to thee, The more I have, for both are infinite." Romeo and Juliet
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