Without a Mediator

[8thdaypriest]

The verse you are referring to is precisely what triggered the issue.  Yes, I understand it differently from the way you understand it and the reason for that is because there are other verses in the Bible that EXPLICITLY say Jesus is the sin-bearer. I have provided those verses in earlier posts. That is why I was asking you for even just one other single verse that hints Satan is, or will be, sin-bearer.  I think we both agree that Scriptures need to be explained by other Scriptures.

I did NOT SAY that Jesus was NOT the "sin bearer".  Of course He was.  So all those Scriptures that say He was are good. 

I'm simply saying that HE does not/will not "carry" those sins forever.  He will put them onto Satan, after the judgment in Heaven gives Him "dominion".

[8thdaypriest]

You guys need to define your terms.  Specifically "sin-bearer".  You're talking past each other. 

To "bare" means to carry a load. 

Jesus WAS the "sin bearer".  He "bore" (carried) our sins to the cross, and into the grave. 

I'm saying that there is ALSO a "sense" in which Satan will be LOADED DOWN with the confessed sins of "the congregation".  They will be PUT UPON HIM, by the High Priest, at the final Day of Atonement. 

[Samie]

To "bare" means to carry a load. 

Jesus WAS the "sin bearer".  He "bore" (carried) our sins to the cross, and into the grave. 

I'm saying that there is ALSO a "sense" in which Satan will be LOADED DOWN with the confessed sins of "the congregation".  They will be PUT UPON HIM, by the High Priest, at the final Day of Atonement. 

There is only one sin-bearer - the scapegoat - at Yom Kippur.  If Jesus was the sin-bearer - and there are verses that say this, upon what other verse did you base what you said that sins of "the congregation" will be PUT UPON HIM, by the High Priest, at the final Day of Atonement?  IF Jesus was the "sin-bearer" and Satan will be "sin-bearer" will that not make TWO (2) sin-bearers?  And Scriptures tell of only ONE sin bearer, our Lord & Savior Jesus Christ.

[pnattmbtc]

First of all, neither Jesus nor Satan literally bear sins as a sin is not a "thing"; a sin is a concept, which represents actions, such as thoughts or bad things that one does.  So whether we are talking about Jesus or Satan, we're dealing with metaphors.  A verb is not something which can be literally born, like a noun could be born, by literally carrying it.  We can bear sin in a sense like we are weighed down mentally.

When one speaks of Jesus bearing sin, usually the penal substitution idea is what people have in mind, where Jesus is paying a price so that God has the legal right to forgive us, or some variation of this idea.  When people speak of Satan's role, the idea I have heard, is that the metaphor represents the
responsibility that Satan has.

Edited August 26, 2015 by pnattmbtc

[JoeMo]

Sin is both a verb and a noun - like "look" or "party" or "visit".  Jesus bears our sin in the sense that He carried the burden and guilt of our sins on the cross.  Satan will ultimately bear our sin in the sense that he will pay the ultimate penalty - eternal death.

[8thdaypriest]

We use the expression, "he has paid his debt to society" when a man completes he sentence in prison.  But the man did not literally pay money or goods to someone else.  He PAID with time served. 

When we use the expression "he paid the ultimate price" for our freedom, we're not saying the man somehow paid money TO another party.  The expression is a way of saying that "he did what was necessary" in order to recover freedom, or protect freedom, and he lost his life in the process.   

Jesus also "paid" the ultimate "price" for our freedom from the dominion of Satan and death.  The "price" that He "paid" was perfect obedience to His Father's Law - "even to death on a cross".  "He was obedient unto death, striving against sin."  Incarnating into human nature and form was also part of the "price" that He "paid". 

Dominion of earth was LOST through disobedience.  The dominion is recovered through perfect obedience - Jesus' perfect obedience. 

When we talk about someone carrying a LOAD, that LOAD can be something intangible - like guilt, or a great responsibility.  We use the expression, "He took it upon himself, to accomplish the task."  That expression does not mean the man is literally "carrying" or "pulling" a large object. 

Jesus "took upon Himself" - the great task of recovering the dominion of earth, and all of those who were willing return to God.   He did this voluntarily.  

When Satan is ultimately judged guilty of ALL the sin which he has caused, that judgment will be laid ON HIM.  He will not be able to get rid of it.  He will "carry it" to the "uninhabited place" and finally to the lake of fire.  He will NOT carry this "load" voluntarily (this judgment of guilt or ultimate responsibility). 

The Bible uses so many of these metaphors.  Like "debt to the law", "carried our sorrow", or sin being "black" and forgiveness making us "white"- like "washed" of, or "cleansed" from sin.  All of this language is trying to explain something intangible to human beings who tend to understand things in a tangible way.    

[Samie]

The issue is who is represented by the scapegoat at Yom Kippur (see Lev 16:8,10,20-26)?  The Bible says the scapegoat shall bear all the sins of Israel (Lev 16:22), and hence the question, who is represented by this scapegoat sin-bearer, Jesus or Satan?

We all are aware that Scriptures EXPLICITLY say Jesus bore our sins, hence there is no question, I guess, that He is our sin-bearer.  For me, He is the One represented by the scapegoat. The scapegoat carried the sins to a place uninhabited.  This to me, is our Lord's carrying our sins upon Himself to death, the death that He alone experienced.  No other death brought us life, only His death. No other death paid the penalty for all sins, only His death.  The death that He died was UNINHABITED before He died; it remained UNINHABITED after He resurrected.  He is the fit man Who led the scapegoat to death by giving up His life voluntarily. As the High Priest confessed upon the scapegoat the sins of the people, thereby transferring to the scapegoat the sins of the people , in like manner Jesus as High Priest attached humanity with all its sins - Jews and Gentiles alike - into His Body on the cross thereby transferring upon Himself all sins of humanity.  These sins He brought with Him to death and banished them there.  These sins, Scriptures say, God remembers NO MORE! So, what sin of humanity remains for Satan to bear for him to be sin-bearer?

Satan as sin-bearer?  I have yet to find a single verse hinting Satan is sin-bearer. By eternal death Satan will pay the ultimate penalty for sin?  Those to die the eternal death are as many as the sands of the sea, are they likewise paying the ultimate penalty for sin? If yes, then, they are also sin-bearers like Satan.  And is there any need to pay that which was ALREADY paid for?  Is Jesus' death insufficient payment for all the sins of the world?  Who will confess upon Satan the sins he must bear? Confessing sin entails remembering the sins to confess.  But the Father says He refuses to remember any sin. So with the Son Who is one with the Father.

With no one to confess humanity's sins upon Satan, humanity's sins cannot be transferred to Satan.  With no sin of humanity transferred for Satan to bear, he cannot be our sin-bearer. Satan is disqualified, I guess, from being represented by the Yom Kippur scapegoat.

[pnattmbtc]

There's somewhere in the pseudepigrapha that talks about Azazel being cast away for 10,000 years, so apparently the mythology of the scapegoat/Satan was well known in the Jewish culture.  I'll dig around some and see if I can find the reference.

Edited August 27, 2015 by pnattmbtc

[pnattmbtc]

Maybe the book of Enoch, chapter 21: 

These are of the number of the stars of heaven, which have transgressed the commandment of the Lord, and are bound here till ten thousand years, 

 

[pnattmbtc]

Azazel.  The name of the SPIRIT supposed to have its abode in the

                                           wilderness, to whom, on the Day of Atonement, the goat laden with

                                            the sins of the people was sent.  Azazel is not mentioned elsewhere

                                            is OT; but the name occurs in the Book of Enoch (2nd century B.C.)

                                            as that of the LEADER OF THE EVIL ANGELS, who formed

                                            unions with the daughters of men, and (as the legend is developed in

                                            the Book of Enoch) (From "A Dictionary of the Bible" by James Hasings

[pnattmbtc]

And secondly the Lord said to Raphael, 'BIND
AZAZEL HAND AND FOOT and THROW HIM INTO THE
DARKNESS!'  And he made a hole in the desert which is in Dudael
and CAST him there; he threw on top of him jagged and sharp rocks.
And he covered his face in order that he may not see light, and in order
that HE MAY BE SENT INTO THE FIRE ON THE GREAT DAY
OF JUDGMENT" (Book of Enoch, 8:1-10:7).

[8thdaypriest]

Thanks pnatt

[Samie]

I am happy that the Bible makes clear Jesus is our sin-bearer.  Through Him and Him alone, did God make a complete atonement for us.  Through Him our sins were banished, never to have dominion over us again.  The role of the scapegoat at Yom Kippur is a major one in the atonement process.

I wonder why there are those who want to give Satan that major role in the atonement process.

[pnattmbtc]

I am happy that the Bible makes clear Jesus is our sin-bearer.  Through Him and Him alone, did God make a complete atonement for us.  Through Him our sins were banished, never to have dominion over us again.  The role of the scapegoat at Yom Kippur is a major one in the atonement process.

I wonder why there are those who want to give Satan that major role in the atonement process.

You're misunderstanding what's being said, Samie, if you think Satan has a major role in the atonement process.  I suggest re-reading the posts if this is what you're thinking, because no one has asserted what you are saying.  Satan will be held responsible for his role causing others to sin, but atonement has to do with reconciliation, and there is nothing in what Satan is doing which is dealing directly with that theme.

[8thdaypriest]

White linen was a symbol of PURITY - not commonality, or the need for cleansing.  And of course - Jesus IS perfectly PURE. 

Daniel saw a "man dressed in linen" and did John.  That "man" was the glorified Christ. 

If the LORD was going to communicate to believers on earth, that the Day of Atonement had arrived, it just seems to that HE would represent Christ, in the vision, dressed in the attire commanded FOR the Day of Atonement.  If Mrs. White did have the vision described in her writings, then I personally think the LORD was trying to tell the early Adventists, that it was NOT YET the Day of Atonement.  Christ was ministering in Heaven - yes.  But He was still doing the "daily" ministry.  That is communicated through His attire. 

[Samie]

I am happy that the Bible makes clear Jesus is our sin-bearer.  Through Him and Him alone, did God make a complete atonement for us.  Through Him our sins were banished, never to have dominion over us again.  The role of the scapegoat at Yom Kippur is a major one in the atonement process.

I wonder why there are those who want to give Satan that major role in the atonement process.

You're misunderstanding what's being said, Samie, if you think Satan has a major role in the atonement process.

Did I think or the others?

You're misunderstanding what's being said, Samie, if you think Satan has a major role in the atonement process.  I suggest re-reading the posts if this is what you're thinking, because no one has asserted what you are saying.  Satan will be held responsible for his role causing others to sin, but atonement has to do with reconciliation, and there is nothing in what Satan is doing which is dealing directly with that theme.

Is the role of the scapegoat at Yom Kippur not a major one?  If it is, then, why would not the position that the scapegoat represents Satan be not giving Satan that major role?  And who says the role of the scapegoat has nothing to do with atonement?

Leviticus 16:10   ¹⁰ "But the goat on which the lot for the scapegoat fell, shall be presented alive before the LORD, to make atonement upon it, to send it into the wilderness as the scapegoat.

Atonement brings about forgiveness and cleansing from sin. Cleansing entails the removal or taking away of that which causes uncleanness. And it is the scapegoat that will take away the sins of the people after these sins were transferred to it by the High Priest who confessed all these sins upon its head.

[Samie]

White linen was a symbol of PURITY - not commonality, or the need for cleansing.  And of course - Jesus IS perfectly PURE. 

Daniel saw a "man dressed in linen" and did John.  That "man" was the glorified Christ. 

If the LORD was going to communicate to believers on earth, that the Day of Atonement had arrived, it just seems to that HE would represent Christ, in the vision, dressed in the attire commanded FOR the Day of Atonement.  If Mrs. White did have the vision described in her writings, then I personally think the LORD was trying to tell the early Adventists, that it was NOT YET the Day of Atonement.  Christ was ministering in Heaven - yes.  But He was still doing the "daily" ministry.  That is communicated through His attire. 

But why did Sister White say a complete and perfect atonement had been done at the cross? If there was complete and perfect atonement done at the cross, why would there be a need of another day of atonement?

[JoeMo]

"But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and arguments and quarrels about the law, because these are unprofitable and useless." (Titus 3:9)

[Samie]

"But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and arguments and quarrels about the law, because these are unprofitable and useless." (Titus 3:9)

?????? 

Does this contribute anything to the discussion?  Are you saying this thread by your teacher is useless? Or you simply cannot refute my position you post this in two succeeding threads where I last posted?  But I respect your position to post anything you like, brother.

[Samie]

8thdaypriest was proposing another day of atonement, but Sister White said a complete and perfect atonement had been done at the cross:

Type met antitype in the death of Christ, the Lamb slain for the sins of the world. Our great High Priest has made the only sacrifice that is of any value in our salvation. When he offered Himself on the cross, a perfect atonement was made for the sins of the people. We are now standing in the outer court, waiting and looking for that blessed hope, the glorious appearing of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. {ST June 28, 1899, par. 3}

Christ came to this earth to make an atonement for transgression. His atonement was complete in every part. As He hung on the cross, He could say, “It is finished.” {ST July 31, 1901, par. 8}

He [Christ] planted the cross between heaven and earth, and when the Father beheld the sacrifice of His Son, He bowed before it in recognition of its perfection. “It is enough,” He said. “The Atonement is complete.”—The Review and Herald, September 24, 1901. {7ABC 459.6}

And Sister White's position in the quote above is solidly Biblical.

[JoeMo]

?????? 

Does this contribute anything to the discussion?  Are you saying this thread by your teacher is useless? Or you simply cannot refute my position you post this in two succeeding threads where I last posted?  But I respect your position to post anything you like, brother.

Refuting your opinion in an exercese in futility.  In all the time Iv'e seen you here, I can't remember a single occasion of you changing your mind on anything you have posted. IMHO this is one of those discussions that has become "unprofitable and useless".

You are correct in your assessment that I consider Rachel to be one of my teachers.  Even though we don't see eye to eye on everything, I respect her as one of the most studied, balanced, Spirit-filled, open minded, and respectful posters on this site.  

[Samie]

Refuting your opinion in an exercese in futility. In all the time Iv'e seen you here, I can't remember a single occasion of you changing your mind on anything you have posted. IMHO this is one of those discussions that has become "unprofitable and useless".

Did 8thdaypriest, or even yourself, change your mind when changing your mind means exchanging truth for error?

[Samie]

 

Samie, if you think that Jesus made a complete and final atonement at the cross, then you will have to conclude that the types of the two atonements laid out in Leviticus are not types at all and are not profitable for doctrine.

 

What more can you add to what is "perfect and complete in every part" to make it "final"?

I believe everything in Scriptures is profitable; don't you think so?

[Samie]

 

Samie, if you think that Jesus made a complete and final atonement at the cross, then you will have to conclude that the types of the two atonements laid out in Leviticus are not types at all and are not profitable for doctrine. You are also going to have to explain:

1. Why the Day of Atonement (if it came at Jesus death) came before the antitypical day of Pentecost which came 50 days later?

1.  Jesus' death occurred at the time appointed by the Father, not by any human's understanding of when it must occur.

2 Why Hebrews says Christ is our "minister of the Heavenly Sanctuary", if final atonement was accomplished at his resurrection?

2.  He ministers there to continually justify us. When we commit sin now, the sin committed having been forgiven at the cross, is not counted or imputed against us (2 Cor 5:19).  This is His act of continually justifying us because He was raised for our justification (Rom 4:25).

3. What use does the Holy Place (First Apartment) have in Christ's Heavenly ministry if He never went there?

 3. He went there and is there now. See #2.

4 How Christ can cleanse the Heavenly Sanctuary in a final atonement when almost 2000 years of confessed and forsaken sins have been sent there since His ascension?

4. Heaven is a holy place. Sins cannot be there; neither a record of sins.  Why would God keep a record of sins He refuses to remember? Said He, "Their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more." (NKJ Heb 10:17).

5. How the final atonement can precede the judgment, or does your doctrine negate the necessity of a judgment?

 5. The Bible says judgment for a person comes AFTER that person dies (Heb 9:27).  Not while alive.

6 Who is the scapegoat upon whom all sins are placed , and where is the wilderness to which he is driven. When does this occur?

6. Jesus is the scapegoat. The wilderness / uninhabited place is His death. It occurred on the cross.

At Yom Kippur, the scapegoat is sin-bearer of all sins of the people confessed upon its head by the High Priest. The Bible says Jesus is our sin-bearer. He took upon Himself all our sins when He attached us all to His body on the cross, where as High Priest He offered Himself as Supreme Sacrifice for the sins of the world. As Scapegoat and fit Man, He carried all our sins to His death and banished them there. Only His death brought us life. Only His death forgave and cleansed us from all sin. That death was UNINHABITED before He died; it remained UNINHABITED when He resurrected.

I believe Scriptures attest to the above and Bible references will be provided upon request.

[8thdaypriest]

I'd like to summarize if I may.

In this thread, we have at least two conversations going on. 

1.  Discussing whether the Day of Atonement began back in 1844, or will be the DAY when Jesus returns to "cut off" the wicked, and to banish the "scapegoat" (who I believe will be Satan).

Jackson says 1844.  Rachel says Jesus will return on Yom Kippur - the DAY of Atonement. 

This discussion includes the question:

If the ministry of Christ as High Priest began in 1844, then will He finish that ministry and come out from the MHP at a point in time before His return in glory?  Between the time that Jesus LEAVES the MHP, and the day that He returns in glory, will the redeemed have to stand - during that time (of the 7 last plagues) - "in the sight of a holy God without a mediator"  (as described by Ellen White)??

Jackson answers "YES".  

Rachel argues NO.  Only the wicked will have to "stand" "without a Mediator" - and THAT will be on the Judgment DAY, which will be the coming Day of Atonement.  The redeemed will all be translated on that DAY, and will literally BE "at one" with the LORD. 

 

2.  The dialog with Samie, regarding his belief that Jesus accomplished EVERYTHING (His role as the Lamb, and His role as High Priest, and His role as "the fit man")  on the DAY that He died on the cross.  In other words, the DAY that Jesus died WAS the Day of Atonement.  This dialog also includes Samie's belief that Jesus was the "scapegoat" on the day that He died.   

Samie,

I would like to have one discussion - regarding whether Jesus entered the MHP of Heaven on October 22nd, 1844, and will exit same BEFORE His glorious return. 

Do you think you could start a separate thread to argue your belief that Jesus accomplished EVERYTHING at the cross ?