Are the three Angels' Messages Dead or Alive?

[Martn]

On 10/16/2016 at 7:44 PM, hch said:

the vision is about 4 kings from the earth

And the four kings, according to the inspired interpretation, are four kingdoms.

The kings are symbolic of kingdoms, therefore. Not republics like America.

But of course you don't like that translation. Even though that is what the word usually means, and even though in all other instances it is translated with words that have the same meaning as kingdom. The word there translated as "kingdom" is never translated as king or with words that have the same meaning as king.

Yes, they are from the earth, but back in those times the whole world was that way.

The "earth" is not itself a symbol of America, as you wish for us to assume. It is a symbol of limited population, which was typical of the entire world, back then, and not any one particular part of the world.

Although America could be symbolized as earth, because of its limited population, at one time, it was not and still is not the only country on earth that could be described that way.

[hch]

9 hours ago, Martn said:

That's not an accurate representation of what we've said.

Many for decades have been saying terrible things about Mr. Obama. Nothing new.

Some details are distinctly yours, but it is your very peculiar method of prophetic interpretation which really stands alone. As others have noted, it is very convoluted and heavily relies on circular reasoning. In other words, it isn't reasonable.

That's not an accurate representation of what I've said.

For many centuries the Bible has identified Mr. Obama's place in history. Nothing new.

The details are distinctly Biblical, but the peculiarities have been sealed until the time of the end. The correct method of prophetic interpretation which really stands alone, is not followed as it should be by most folks. Though others have claimed that my methodology is very convoluted and heavily relies on circular reasoning that does not make their assertion true. In other words, my methodology is not only reasonable, but is essential to get a correct understanding of the prophecies in question.

[hch]

9 hours ago, Martn said:

And the four kings, according to the inspired interpretation, are four kingdoms. [That is true until knowledge has been increased.]

The kings are symbolic of kingdoms, therefore. Not republics like America. [Heaven states that they are kings. There is not justification to reinterpret Heaven's interpretation.]

But of course you don't like that translation. [The translation does not agree with Heaven's plain statement, therefore the translation must be wrong. Unless you propose that Heaven is wrong and the translators are correct?]

Even though that is what the word usually means, and even though in all other instances it is translated with words that have the same meaning as kingdom. The word there translated as "kingdom" is never translated as king or with words that have the same meaning as king. [The word king that heaven uses is NEVER translated as kingdom. But the word translated kingdom is only translated as kingdom in Daniel. Nowhere else in the Bible. Translating kingdom as reign would not contradict Heaven's interpretation about the 4 kings.]

Yes, they are from the earth, but back in those times the whole world was that way. [Heaven declares them to be from the earth in 7:17 and then in 7:23 it distinguishes the earth from the whole earth (The fourth beast shall be...upon earth...and shall devour the whole earth)]

The "earth" is not itself a symbol of America, as you wish for us to assume. [Revelation 13 identifies the prophetic earth as relating to America. All of the symbolism in Daniel 7 is in Revelation 13. To correctly understand the prophecy, the symbolism must be uniformly applied in both chapters.]

It is a symbol of limited population, which was typical of the entire world, back then, and not any one particular part of the world.

Although America could be symbolized as earth, because of its limited population, at one time, it was not and still is not the only country on earth that could be described that way. [since SDA's use Revelation 13 to identify America as the country that arose from a sparsely populated area, it is only consistent to use the same interpretation of the symbolism when Revelation supplements Daniel 7]

Thus it comes down to rightly dividing the word of truth.

[hch]

Quote

     If the leading men in our conferences do not now accept the message sent them by God, and fall into line for action, the churches will suffer great loss. When the watchman, seeing the sword coming, gives the trumpet a certain sound, the people along the line will echo the warning, and all will have opportunity to make ready for the conflict. But too often the leader has stood hesitating, seeming to say: "Let us not be in too great haste. There may be a mistake. We must be careful not to raise a false alarm." The very hesitancy and uncertainty on his part is crying: "'Peace and safety.' Do not get excited. Be not alarmed... This agitation will all die down." Thus he virtually denies the message sent from God, and the warning which was designed to stir the churches fails to do its work. The trumpet of the watchman gives no certain sound, and the people do not prepare for the battle. Let the watchman beware lest, through his hesitancy and delay, souls shall be left to perish, and their blood shall be required at his hand.  {5T 715.2}

The alarm has been sounded to Presidents of our Conferences, publishing departments, leading evangelists, supporting ministries, pastors, and members in the pews. The facts are what they are, and it is left to each individual to consider the facts and take the appropriate action.

As history fulfills Bible prophecy, it appears at this time that President Obama will go against the Constitution after the election (8 November 2016) but before the inauguration (20 January 2017). The precipitating factor as I understand it will be a conflict with Iran (they will attack America's ships). Whether this is a direct attack or from a puppet military is yet to be seen. Whether it is state sponsored or a suicidal renegade is also yet to be seen. Then Mr. Obama will implement the dreaded Sunday Law and move against God's people. Armageddon will follow at its appointed time. 

It will take more than superficial Bible study to give the Third Angel's Message the right sound at the right time. And it is very evident that the general consensus regarding my depiction of endtime events (as expressed by the deafening silence and out right negativity) is that a private interpretation is being pawned off as Bible truth.

The clock is running down. We don't have long to wait to know who is rightly dividing the Word of Truth. The door of mercy is still open for each and everyone of us to look a little deeper into these great Bible truths while the sealing angel is doing his final work. Do not delay until Iran has fired the fatal shot or until President Obama has begun his THIRD TERM lest the door of mercy close as it did when the rain fell upon the antediluvians. For judgment must begin at the house of God. 

[debbym]

i have not been reading this thread, and glanced through it today.   I hope you will be ok HCH, as time rolls on, and what you have believed is not proven as you expect.

[Martn]

14 hours ago, hch said:

Thus it comes down to rightly dividing the word of truth.

Circular reasoning, all the way through.

 

[Martn]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circular_reasoning

"the premises are just as much in need of proof or evidence as the conclusion"

[hch]

20 hours ago, debbym said:

i have not been reading this thread, and glanced through it today.   I hope you will be ok HCH, as time rolls on, and what you have believed is not proven as you expect.

Debbym.

Thank you. But the worst that can happen to me is that I could be embarrassed for misunderstanding the 3 Angels message. But I fear for the brethren and Sisters, who may run the clock out during this sealing time and be found unfaithful servants when that which I have seen in Bible prophecy is upon us. I do not know what will be their situation then or what else I could have done to give them the importance of the warning, before these things are upon us.

[Dave Watchman]

On 10/22/2016 at 9:34 AM, hch said:

As history fulfills Bible prophecy, it appears at this time that President Obama will go against the Constitution after the election (8 November 2016) but before the inauguration (20 January 2017). The precipitating factor as I understand it will be a conflict with Iran (they will attack America's ships). Whether this is a direct attack or from a puppet military is yet to be seen. Whether it is state sponsored or a suicidal renegade is also yet to be seen. Then Mr. Obama will implement the dreaded Sunday Law and move against God's people. Armageddon will follow at its appointed time. 

Man, you are right in that the clock IS running down. We don't have long to wait to find out what's going on. I tried to look at as much of your thread as I could but I can't see what you are seeing in Daniel about Barry and the USA. Even though I think you could be in the right ballpark. I just can't digest your views on Daniel 7 or the five who have fallen. Even though there still just seems to be something about your schematic that has a feel of legitimacy. It's as though you already somehow know something is going on, but are then picking unrelated Bible verses that match what  you think will take place. I did like the part about Baraq U-Bamah as lightning falling from heaven.

There's a guy from Africa who has made 3 recent video's about that Revelation 12 sign. I don't agree with his eschatology either but it looks like he might have found some piece of the timing. Part of that is a reference to November 21, 2016 when he thinks that WW3 will begin. Jupiter enters into the body of Virgo on that day to begin it's retrograde motion until September 23, 2017. Previously, as part of an unrelated study, I had thought that I had found the specific solar and lunar eclipses that Jesus was talking about in the Olivet which would occur immediately after the tribulation. When I enter the dates of these two celestial events into the date to date calculator I get 777 days.

I also think that I found what Jesus was talking about regarding the abomination of desolation (let the reader understand). And as crazy as this sounds, it is connected to the Obama Nation of desolation. So when I enter the date of the thing which I think is the AofD and measure to the last day solar and lunar eclipses, I get EXACTLY 1290 days. I don't think that it's accidental that we can make this funny little alliteration or rhyme or whatever it is: the Obama Nation of desolation.

I think we're already about one third into the Antichrist's 42 months of end time authority. I think that our man of sin is already here and has recently taken his seat in the Temple of God. It's like when Jesus said: “The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses’ seat. Moses sat in the Temple of God and proclaimed God's Law. Thou shalt not kill, Remember the Sabbath and you shalt not lie with a male as with a woman. It is an ABOMINATION.

"He shall pay no attention to the God of his fathers, or to the one beloved by women. He shall not pay attention to any other god, for he shall magnify himself above all.

 

"Woman" is symbolic for God's people or the church. "Jesus" is the One beloved by God's people, they being the "woman" here.

 

"Then from his mouth the serpent spewed water like a river, to overtake the woman and sweep her away with the torrent.

 

"Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring—those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus.

 

Jesus said:

"The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat"

 

"The scribes and the Pharisees have seated themselves in the chair of Moses"

 

They have "seated  themselves".

"so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God

"so that he sets himself up in God's temple,

 

"So he will seat himself in the temple of God,

 

He will "seat himself".

 

Was Paul drawing from Matthew 23? Moses was the teacher of the Law, proclaiming the Word of God. He was long gone when Jesus said this so the Scribes and the Pharisees had really just taken over his job or his "seat", which was Moses' place in the Temple of God. Our end time Antichrist has taken over God's job by influencing the shift in morality and the trend in increased lawlessness. "Anti" can also mean "in place of".  God said: "You shall not murder", "Remember the Sabbath" and "You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination". Antichrist says: forget the Sabbath, legalize pornography, legalize abortion, legalize same sex marriage and have a sexual revolution.

 

When the Stern faced King seeks to change these times and these Laws, he by default has magnified himself above all that is called God or is worshiped and has set himself up in God's "seat" of authority thereby claiming to BE God. "Worship" comes from the word "proskuneo" and can also mean to "submit to" or to "obey". And he has been at work on this for a long time behind the scenes using various human agents over many years but make no mistake it has been Lucifer's hand inside of the glove.

 

"Do you know the laws of the heavens, or can you set up their rule over the earth?" - Job 38:33

"who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God.

I'm thinking that this is what is happening right now with our end time Antichrist. His 42 months of authority have begun but he's in a predicament. He can't be revealed until the 5th trumpet, so he's been working continuously and as fast as he can to cause the rebellion to reach and exceed it's limit. He knows the sooner he completes this task the sooner that the sudden destruction will fall which will enable his debut. And I believe he has ultimately been successful in the setting up of the AofD. But I can't see him slowing his pace even until the day that he finally causes fire to fall from Heaven in the sight of men.

If the first four trumpets are literal, they will likely be the catalyst for the Sunday law. People around the world will see the peculiar nature of the sudden destruction and will know that the God of the Bible is back. The capitol cities from around the world who made legal all of the transgressive laws will be wiped out so the ten kingdoms will rise up very quickly during a time of global emergency. The survivors will act quickly in an ill fated attempt to appease God by demanding that people attend worship services. They will think that if they do nothing, God is going to kill them all. Not only will they order church attendance on Sunday, they will demand work be done on Saturday to clean up the mess in the areas devastated by the first four trumpets.

So I don't know what else to say here Henry, I'm afraid that we might be heading into a very serious time. And it's not the subject that's going to win us a popularity contest. And I'd still rather be wrong with it because I'd sure like to see another summer come and go.

Dave.

 

[Martn]

For most of us, there will be many summers to come. There is still a great deal of time left before the final events take place. Generations will yet come and go before we might see any of them happen.

And none of the predicted evil things ever have to happen. If we run instead with the "extremely good news" of the (four) angels' message, which really can change the world overnight. Let's focus on that, rather than on all the evil things which predictably may be done by and because of those who oppose such extremely good news.

[hch]

6 hours ago, Dave Watchman said:

Man, you are right in that the clock IS running down. We don't have long to wait to find out what's going on. I tried to look at as much of your thread as I could but I can't see what you are seeing in Daniel about Barry and the USA. Even though I think you could be in the right ballpark. I just can't digest your views on Daniel 7 or the five who have fallen. Even though there still just seems to be something about your schematic that has a feel of legitimacy. It's as though you already somehow know something is going on, but are then picking unrelated Bible verses that match what  you think will take place. I did like the part about Baraq U-Bamah as lightning falling from heaven.

Dave,

Thanks for the encouraging words.

There are several prophecies that tie into President Obama being the Antichrist who makes the image beast make an image to the beast. I have written 8-9 books trying to explain it, but the time had not arrived for God's people to understand it. My current manuscript is being proof read by a professional that has given me some pointers that are invaluable. For example: This is a great sentence, but it does not fit with anything else on this page. lol. So I go back and rework the page. Then she goes for a while and says something like 'extremely complex, but wow' like it is coming together. From 3 AM until now I have been trying to make the tree Angels' Messages fit onto 4 8x10 pieces of paper. Concise, relevant, and timely. now that my mind is getting foggy, I'll put it up and get doing some physical labor.

Will reread your post a few more times. There are 2 points that were a blessing. I'll have to check out the details. Thanks again for sharing

 

[hch]

1 hour ago, Martn said:

For most of us, there will be many summers to come. There is still a great deal of time left before the final events take place. Generations will yet come and go before we might see any of them happen.

And none of the predicted evil things ever have to happen. If we run instead with the "extremely good news" of the (four) angels' message, which really can change the world overnight. Let's focus on that, rather than on all the evil things which predictably may be done by and because of those who oppose such extremely good news.

Martn Martn Martn...

 

[hch]

The Lord aroused me at 2 AM this morning from a most wonderful dream of Heaven. And this thought came to mind:

 

In Noah's Day, many patiently waited to see if Noah was correct. When the rain began to fall, they knew without a doubt that he was right. But on the other hand the Bereans were "more noble...in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so" (Acts 17:11).

[hch]

We need to study to show ourselves approved of God before it happens rather than to wait for it to happen. In 1840, the world was stirred with the message from Josiah Litch because he understood the prophecy and it happened as he had said. His understanding fueled the Loudcry.

 

People would not have been so impressed if Litch had explained the prophecy after it happened. But because he had studied the prophecy and explained his understanding before it was fulfilled, when it came to pass, God's work moved forward in a mighty way.

Quote

The event exactly fulfilled the prediction. When it became known, multitudes were convinced of the correctness of the principles of prophetic interpretation adopted by Miller and his associates, and a wonderful impetus was given to the Advent movement. Men of learning and position united with Miller, both in preaching and publishing his views, and from 1840 to 1844 the work rapidly extended.  {GC88 334.5}

 

[Gregory Matthews]

I prefer that when EGW is quoted she be cited from a book that is available to most people today.  The citation above leads me to believe that it came from the 1888 edition of The Great Controversy.  Most people will have access to a more recent edition, which is the 1911 version.  In the most common version of that edition, the citation is taken from page 335.  This more common version will allow people to read the greater context.

There is, however, a more recent edition.  That edition is titled From Here to Forever.  In that edition the cited passage is found on page 209.

Yes, Litch published his views prior to August 1840, which is the date that Litch stated Turkey would fall.   It is that part that EGW referenced in the passage that HCH cited.   NOTE:  Litch's exact date was August 11, 1840.  This view of Litch, was published in 1838, 1840 and in 1841.

While it can be argued that Litch was correct as to his views of  Turkey, his main thesis involved much more than Turkey.  His first publication of his view on Turkey was in the June 1838 publication of The Probability of the Second Coming of Christ About A.D. 1843.  IOW,  In its major parts, the views of Litch were not correct and cannot be said to be a valid understanding of what the Bible taught.  He was just as wrong as was Miller and the others.

NOTE:  As to where I got my information as to the publication of Litch's materials, I got them from the Appendix of the 1911 GC, page 691.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[CoAspen]

Quote

We need to study to show ourselves approved of God...........

I approve my children, right or wrong, they don't need to prove anything. We are all sons and daughters of God, he created us and does not need us to 'prove' anything. That is the difference between your belief system and most of the rest of us. You still have works in your system, no way around it!

 

[hch]

1 hour ago, Gregory Matthews said:

I prefer that when EGW is quoted she be cited from a book that is available to most people today.  The citation above leads me to believe that it came from the 1888 edition of The Great Controversy.  Most people will have access to a more recent edition, which is the 1911 version.  In the most common version of that edition, the citation is taken from page 335.  This more common version will allow people to read the greater context.

There is, however, a more recent edition.  That edition is titled From Here to Forever.  In that edition the cited passage is found on page 209.

Yes, Litch published his views prior to August 1840, which is the date that Litch stated Turkey would fall.   It is that part that EGW referenced in the passage that HCH cited.   NOTE:  Litch's exact date was August 11, 1840.  This view of Litch, was published in 1838, 1840 and in 1841.

While it can be argued that Litch was correct as to his views of  Turkey, his main thesis involved much more than Turkey.  His first publication of his view on Turkey was in the June 1838 publication of The Probability of the Second Coming of Christ About A.D. 1843.  IOW,  In its major parts, the views of Litch were not correct and cannot be said to be a valid understanding of what the Bible taught.  He was just as wrong as was Miller and the others.

NOTE:  As to where I got my information as to the publication of Litch's materials, I got them from the Appendix of the 1911 GC, page 691.

Well put Gregory

[hch]

16 minutes ago, CoAspen said:

I approve my children, right or wrong, they don't need to prove anything. We are all sons and daughters of God, he created us and does not need us to 'prove' anything. That is the difference between your belief system and most of the rest of us. You still have works in your system, no way around it!

Were the people in Noah's Day loved any less by God? But those who ran the clock down did not receive the blessing that Noah and family received. People that do not have the light that we have may be blessed after the prophecy is fulfilled, but will those who have had greater light may be in danger of presuming upon God.

[Martn]

On 10/25/2016 at 6:31 AM, hch said:

People would not have been so impressed if Litch had explained the prophecy after it happened. But because he had studied the prophecy and explained his understanding before it was fulfilled, when it came to pass, God's work moved forward in a mighty way.

"The event exactly fulfilled the prediction. When it became known, multitudes were convinced of the correctness of the principles of prophetic interpretation adopted by Miller and his associates, and a wonderful impetus was given to the Advent movement. Men of learning and position united with Miller, both in preaching and publishing his views, and from 1840 to 1844 the work rapidly extended." [Great Controversy / From Here to Forever, p. 209]

 

Even as human beings, we have the ability sometimes to foresee and predict events in our future. This doesn't come from God or the devil, but from our own perception of time, though with God of course the ability to do so is infinitely greater.

For example, Jehovah's Witnesses (themselves a Millerite offshoot group --with SDA roots) foretold far in advance the events of 1914. Though their methods of substantiating the prediction were full of faulty logic, nevertheless the event they predicted did happen in the very day, month, and year they said it would, and for the most part (though not completely perhaps) it happened just as they said it would. (Essentially they connect with 1914 the same kind of spiritual advent --a horizontal, not vertical, coming to judgment-- which SDA's connect with 1844). 

[Martn]

On 10/23/2016 at 1:48 PM, Martn said:

For most of us, there will be many summers to come. There is still a great deal of time left before the final events take place. Generations will yet come and go before we might see any of them happen.

And none of the predicted evil things ever have to happen. If we run instead with the "extremely good news" of the (four) angels' message, which really can change the world overnight. Let's focus on that, rather than on all the evil things which predictably may be done by and because of those who oppose such extremely good news.

I should note, however, that Jesus himself can reappear at any time. His coming has always been near, even at the doors. Nearly two thousand years ago, even, he was ready to come.

For he can come at any time, even if none of the final events foretold have happened yet. If we are ready sooner, he can come sooner.

If we lay back and do little or nothing to better ourselves, then he will come later, at the appointed time, when conditions on earth and in space have become so perilous that, if he did not intervene, there would be no one left for him to return to. He waits, as long as he possibly can, in order for us to improve ourselves and the worlds around us.

[CoAspen]

Not to disagree, but a different view.....He is waiting for us to spread the good news to the world and in return we are improving our understanding of God. I am not sure what other people are referring too, when they say 'improve ourselves', that is not my understanding of sin. I can only 'impove ' in Gods eyes by being behind Christ. Anything I do is simply not enough. By 'doing' for others, I am simply following Gods message to us, others first, ourselves last. For me that is the gospel.

[Gregory Matthews]

Martn said below:

I have some differences with the statement below:

1)  JW beginnings can be traced through Charles Taze Russell back to the Millerite Movement and some of the same people associated with the beginnings of the SDA denomination.  But, I can not say that they actually have SDA roots.

2) Considered in depth, their view of the return of Christ in 1914 is substantially different from the SDA view of what happened in 1844.  So, I cannot say that the two are the same spiritual event.

 

For example, Jehovah's Witnesses (themselves a Millerite offshoot group --with SDA roots) foretold far in advance the events of 1914. Though their methods of substantiating the prediction were full of faulty logic, nevertheless the event they predicted did happen in the very day, month, and year they said it would, and for the most part (though not completely perhaps) it happened just as they said it would. (Essentially they connect with 1914 the same spiritual advent which SDA's connect with 1844). 

[Martn]

"it is the end time"

"we know that it is the end time"

1 John 2:18; Jude 16-18.

His coming has always been near, right from the beginning.

At such a time as we think not, he said, that is when he will appear. At a time of peace and comfort, when we least expect it.

[hch]

3 hours ago, Martn said:

"it is the end time"

"we know that it is the end time"

1 John 2:18; Jude 16-18.

His coming has always been near, right from the beginning.

At such a time as we think not, he said, that is when he will appear. At a time of peace and comfort, when we least expect it.

 

On ‎10‎/‎23‎/‎2016 at 2:48 PM, Martn said:

For most of us, there will be many summers to come. There is still a great deal of time left before the final events take place. Generations will yet come and go before we might see any of them happen.

And none of the predicted evil things ever have to happen. If we run instead with the "extremely good news" of the (four) angels' message, which really can change the world overnight. Let's focus on that, rather than on all the evil things which predictably may be done by and because of those who oppose such extremely good news.

Isn't this contradictory to say the least?

[Martn]

18 hours ago, hch said:

 

Isn't this contradictory to say the least?

No.

If we will proclaim, and also demonstrate, everywhere the "extremely good news" --not just the good news, which humanity has heard a million times already, but the "extremely" good news, of the (four) angels' message, which few as yet have ever heard--  then the horrible final events can be avoided, leaving nothing but summerlands in the wake of his appearing.

Failing that, then the final events will unfold as foretold (which to the ungodly will seem like peace and plenty), and he will return as appointed, lest no one righteous (saved) be left to greet him.