Are the three Angels' Messages Dead or Alive?

[Martn]

7 hours ago, hch said:

The problem is not having a different point of view. The problem is an unwillingness to reason together and the Laodicean attitude that translates: Henry's wrong, I don't need to look at it because I have the Bible, the Spirit of prophecy, the pedigree, a solid SDA education.

You say we don't even look at what you present, but we do.

Some of us read, and reread, every single word you write. We hope to find reason to agree with you, but we do not find this.

We aren't waiting to see if it will happen. We already know it will not.

[JoeMo]

9 minutes ago, Martn said:

We hope to find reason to agree with you, but we do not find this.

I agree.  I consider myself very open-minded about eschatology; and like many, want to keep viable scenarios in mind rather than focus on a specific scenario for the end times (like Adventism's sole focus on the papacy)  I cannot sufficiently comprehend hch's scenario to even include it on my list of possibilities.

[hch]

This is worthy of consideration.

 

[hch]

I'm Still watching

Here's the latest Iranian incident as reported by Reuters:

WASHINGTON, Nov 28 (Reuters) - A small Iranian Islamic Revolutionary Guard vessel pointed its weapon at a U.S. military helicopter in the Strait of Hormuz on Saturday, two U.S. defense officials told Reuters on Monday, an action they described as "unsafe and unprofessional."

The incident is the latest in a series of similar actions by Iranian vessels this year, but the first reported since Republican Donald Trump won the U.S. presidential election on Nov. 8.

During his campaign, Trump vowed that any Iranian vessel that harassed the U.S. Navy in the Gulf would be "shot out of the water," if he was elected. Trump is due to take office on Jan. 20.

There was no immediate Iranian comment on the incident. Trump's transition team did not immediately respond to a request for comment.

The officials, speaking on condition of anonymity, said the incident took place when a Navy MH-60 helicopter flew within half a mile (0.8 km) of two Iranian vessels in international waters. One of the vessels pointed a weapon at the helicopter, the U.S. officials said.

"The behavior by our standards is provocative and could be seen as an escalation," the officials said. At no point did the crew of the helicopter feel threatened, they added.

It was not immediately clear what type of weapon was pointed at the U.S. aircraft.

Years of mutual animosity eased when Washington lifted sanctions on Tehran in January after a deal to curb Iran's nuclear ambitions. But serious differences still remain over Iran's ballistic missile program, and over conflicts in Syria and Iraq.

A number of similar incidents have taken place this year.

In September, a U.S. Navy coastal patrol ship changed course after an Iranian fast-attack craft came within 100 yards (91 meters) of it.

"When they circle our beautiful destroyers with their little boats and they make gestures at our people that they shouldn't be allowed to make, they will be shot out of the water," Trump said at the time. 

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/iranian-vessel-points-weapon-at-us-helicopter-officials/ar-AAkRRHc?li=BBmkt5R&ocid=spartandhp

[hch]

FYI

By faith, I understand that Mr. Obama is America’s last President identified in Bible prophecy. But Mr. Trump has been elected to become America’s President on 20 January 2017. The prophecy is true, but it has not been completely fulfilled yet. “For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away” (1 Corinthians 13:9-10).

So the questions comes to me frequently:

Will President Obama be President until Christ Comes? What if President Obama leaves office and President Trump is inaugurated on 20 January 2017 will your reading of the prophecy be true?

That scenario still fits the prophecy as I understand it today, because Babylon’s king counted his reign from New Year’s Day, 29 March on our Gregorian calendar, to 28 March. If the king left office before 28 March, the next king finished out the last king’s final year until the year's end.

That happened in ancient Babylon: Neriglissar died after New Year’s Day in 556 BC and his young son, Labashi-Marduk, ruled for nine months after Neriglissar’s death; but Labashi-Marduk was assassinated before 28 March; and Nabonidus became the next king.  Nabonidus was ruling on 29 March; thus the reign of Labashi-Marduk was as if if it never had happened. Thus if Mr. Trump is inaugurated President of the United States on 20 January 2017, according to Babylonian custom, he will finish President Obama’s final Babylonian year through 28 March 2017, and in that circumstance, the Coming of Christ will be before 29 March 2017. If President Obama takes a third term, he will be in office when Christ Comes, but that is all that is known about the timing.

And of course the nay sayers will say that I have changed my position about Obama being the last American President... But the truth be told on 06/21/14 09:04 PM I posted on another forum that anyone here can check The same thing that I'm posting here now:

Quote

06/21/14 09:04 PM  Re: Biblical Predictions of Antichrist & Sunday Laws [His child]

"But now that the prophecies have fulfilled and Revelation is explaining Daniel by their fulfillment, as I currently read prophecy -- unless something not yet understood comes to light-- Christ can come while Obama is in office or within the first year of his successor. But I would suspect while Obama is in office."

 

Quote

 

06/22/14 02:02 PM Re: Biblical Predictions of Antichrist & Sunday Laws [Re: His child]

Thank you for answering my question. I hear you saying Jesus will return within President Obama's term which includes the first year of the next president.

 

The only clarification is to say now that Trump is the President elect, his term will not go beyond

28 March 2017 if he actually is inaugurated.

[hch]

If you are not watching, President Obama has directed American intelligence agencies to audit the election results from the last few Presidential elections to see if there is evidence of Russian, Chinese, or foreign interference in America's electoral process.

AND TO REPORT THEIR FINDINGS BACK TO HIM WHILE HE IS STILL PRESIDENT. 

Trump has blasted that probe and called the American Intelligence agencies incompetent. He compared their reliability to their declaration that Iraq had WMD [they were wrong].

Bible Prophecy identifies President Obama to be America's last President. It is not to late to review the prophecies. But the clock is running down. I have a overview that is 7 pages and a book that is about 300 pages. Send me a private email and i can send you the 7 pages as PDF or word docx. Which one do you want?

If I am wrong we can laugh over my gullibility. But when it happens and it is too late to look at the information and to do what needs to be done in the final sealing time, we do not want to be like those in Moses day who would no look at the brass serpent and live. They refused to look and live.

Should we repeat such FOOLISHNESS?

[Samie]

On 16/11/2016 at 5:41 AM, Martn said:

 

On 13/11/2016 at 10:57 PM, debbym said:

He said the Gospel of this kingdom will be preached in all the earth then the end will come.  

Yes.

True.

People have been preaching their dear hearts out for 2000 years, by now literally every where multiple times, and still the end has not come.

By now the message has been preached, at one time or another, to every single people on earth, repeatedly even, and still no end in sight.

Something is missing in the preaching.

Matthew 24:14   And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

I believe the gospel that Jesus wanted preached to the world just before He comes is the same gospel that our Lord Himself preached:

Mark 1:14-15    Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,  And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

In the gospel our Savior preached, He commanded people to repent, the same command God issued in the OT (Ezek 18:30). It is the same command that God now wants all people everywhere to do (Acts 17:30). But when one takes a look at the brand of gospel majority of Christian preachers preach, the focus is on man's believing (exercising faith), rather than on man's repenting (overcoming evil with good) because according to them UNLESS a person first believes he cannot be part of the Body of Christ. IOW, they require those whom they consider still APART from Christ to do SOMETHING - he must first believe - so he can be in Christ.

These preachers seem to have lost track of Christ's own words that APART from Him man can do NOTHING (John 15:5) and hence could NOT even do the act of believing.  But the fact that people can believe is proof enough that people can do SOMETHING instead of NOTHING, and therefore are already in Christ PRIOR to their believing.

Already in Christ PRIOR to their believing?  Yes!

Because God implemented the plan of salvation He devised before the foundation of the world by saving Adam through Christ that same day Adam sinned and reinstated him to his pre-fall spiritual status, an act that cost the Father His only begotten Son - the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world!  With Adam in Christ, all his descendants are born in Christ.  This gracious, saving act of God for man was manifested and revealed in the life, death, resurrection and heavenly ministry of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. 2 Tim 1:8-10.

That people are born in Christ is for me a bible truth long forgotten by many, and in its stead people have been taught that they are born in sin.  Preachers now need a paradigm shift in their teaching: from born in sin to born in Christ. And being in Christ Who is their life (Col 3:4) and strength (Phil 4:13), people have His power to overcome evil with good.

Our Savior has assured that overcomers will NOT be blotted out from the book of life and will be seated with Him in His throne, even as He also overcame and sat down with the Father in His throne (Rev 3:5, 21).  All not blotted out will be allowed entry into heaven (Rev 21:27); all blotted out will have their portion in the lake of fire (Rev 20:15).

You want Jesus to come soon? Preach the everlasting gospel - the gospel our Savior Himself preached.

[hch]

"Many will say to Me [Jesus] in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?  And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of Mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:" (Matthew 7:22-14). 
 

[hch]

Did you see? 9 Electors in the electoral college have requested CIA briefings about foreign interference in the Presidential election. This election is different than past elections.

Quote

This matter is by the decree of the watchers, and the demand by the word of the holy ones: to the intent that the living may know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will, and setteth up over it the basest of men. Daniel 4:17

Quote

And in his estate shall stand up a vile person, to whom they shall not give the honour of the kingdom: but he shall come in peaceably, and obtain the kingdom by flatteries. Daniel 11:21

The word estate occurs in the Bible about 17 times and is translated as foot 8 times. The image in Daniel 2 has 2 feet. Initially Daniel 2 was about King Nebuchadnezzar's dynasty and the 2 feet were symbolic of Babylon's last 2 kings who ruled jointly... Nabonidus and Belshazzar. They were the iron legs that extended into the feet as they mingled church craft with state.

Then the vision in Daniel 7 expanded the meaning of chapter 2 to include the kingdoms Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, and pagan and papal Rome. Then the interpretation of Daniel 7 expanded the meaning of the visions in 2 & 7 to Depict the kings from the earth (American Presidents), who are identified through Bible study to be the head of gold-Reagan (Reagonaomics) the silver-Bush I, the brass midsection - Clinton (didn't his midsection get him in trouble) and the iron legs- Bush II and Obama, who both mingled churchcraft with state as the iron legs flowed into the clay feet. Bush II and Obama are the last 2 kings from the earth identified in the prophecy in Daniel 2. They are one like pagan and papal Rome were one in Daniel 7.  

Quote

And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever. Daniel 2:44

Now that the papacy has been forced to desist from persecution and a new power (the USA) the last power to war against God's people has arisen, we can know that President Obama will implement the Mark of the beast.

Quote

 

The Advent people… If they kept their eyes fixed on Jesus... Then Jesus would encourage them… Others rashly denied the light…and said that it was not God... The light behind them went out…and they stumbled and lost sight of the mark and of Jesus... Soon we heard the voice of God like many waters, which gave us the day and hour of Jesus’ coming. (EW 14.1).

 

 

[JoeMo]

[hch]

2 hours ago, JoeMo said:

[JoeMo]

If, against all reason and probability, Obama remains president after Jan. 20, we can trade emoticons.

[Gregory Matthews]

Jus for the discussion, let us say that HCH is correct and President Obama remains President after  January 20.

What would that prove?

Well, it would prove that HCH was correct  in his statement that President Obama would continue to be President after January 20.

It would not prove that HCH was correct in anything else that he said.

Further, and most important, it would not prove that the Bible predicted such, as HCH claims.

 

Let me illustrate:

I predict that on January 22, 2017 the sun will rise in the morning and it will set in the evening.

If it happens, I will be correct. 

But, such would not prove that I had been correct if I had based my prediction upon a verse in the Bible, or even several of them.

 

 

[Samie]

Hi hch;

Do you believe as I do that the vile person king of Dan 11:21 is a reigning king during the Second Coming?

[hch]

On 12/13/2016 at 2:58 PM, Gregory Matthews said:

Jus for the discussion, let us say that HCH is correct and President Obama remains President after  January 20.

What would that prove?

Well, it would prove that HCH was correct  in his statement that President Obama would continue to be President after January 20.

It would not prove that HCH was correct in anything else that he said.

Further, and most important, it would not prove that the Bible predicted such, as HCH claims.

 

Let me illustrate:

I predict that on January 22, 2017 the sun will rise in the morning and it will set in the evening.

If it happens, I will be correct. 

But, such would not prove that I had been correct if I had based my prediction upon a verse in the Bible, or even several of them.

Gregory,

It is sad but true: you are correct.  When I predicted from 11/30/2011 to 11/30/2012 from Bible study that Pope Benedict XVI would not be pope after the Spring of 2013, no one would hear it. When it happened, the brethren said "Even a false prophet can be right some time."  

Thus the naysayers proved themselves unworthy of the opportunity to receive the blessing from Bible study that shows that the fourth angel, that Mighty Angel of Revelation 18 has joined his voice with the proclamation of the Three Angels' Messages to give the loud cry. And when it is clear that President Obama is the leader of the American beast that will enforce the Mark of the papal beast, the prophecy of the ten Virgins will have met its final fulfillment. The wise will finish the work and the foolish will have waited too late to seek and obtain the Holy Spirit that is to seal God's people for the final conflict.

It is the fulfillment of the parable of the wedding. The honored guests were invited and entreated to come to the wedding and all was ready for them to come and have a wonderful feast in the presence of the king, but they declined the invitation. What more could have been done?

As JoeMO indicated, I weep now, they will weep later. 

 

[hch]

On 12/14/2016 at 7:29 AM, Samie said:

Hi hch;

Do you believe as I do that the vile person king of Dan 11:21 is a reigning king during the Second Coming?

Samie,

I am not sure what you believe. Having read so many of your posts that appear to contradict what I have shared.

President Obama is the last little horn of Daniel 8; the second (last) lamblike horn of Revelation 13; and the rider of the horse in Revelation that after death...brings hell. He will enforce the Mark of the Beast, establish the Sunday Law, and fight against God's people. The ships of Chittim will come against him (possibly while he is in Hawaii next week since Daniel 11 says he returns...returns to D.C. from being out of town?? returns to FIGHT the KoS (Iran) who was in conflict with America when Reagan was inaugurated???). 

There are a lot of things that I do not understand. But I am watching Jesus, the prophecies, and current events to rightly divide the word of truth to show myself approved of God, a worker who needs not to be ashamed at the Coming of my Lord.

[hch]

On 12/13/2016 at 10:20 PM, The Wanderer said:

So...this is what you called "the Bible only..."  earlier in this thread?

Even "Jesus wept" and a pic is worth...

[hch]

 

For those few who are watching Daniel's prophecies as they are being fulfilled in our day, you may not have seen these recent events. The Iran Sanctions Act (ISA) of 1996 was due to expire Dec 31, 2016. But Congress has voted to extend it through Dec 31, 2026 over President Obama's objections. It is law without his signature. 

It has been alleged that Iran is not pleased about the extension because they had negotiated the Joint Comprehensive Plan of Action or JCPOA in good faith expecting that the sanctions would be allowed to expire and that the US and Iran would move toward more normal relations. It has been reported that Iran WILL RETALIATE IN RESPONSE TO THE extension of ISA.

Quote

 To learn what the image is like and how it is to be formed we must study the characteristics of the beast itself--the papacy.  {GC 443.1} 

Quote

In December, 536, the Byzantine general Belisarius garrisoned Rome and was received by the pope in a friendly and courteous manner...Silverius was consequently arrested...Vigilius arranged to take charge of his unlawfully deposed predecessor...he died in consequence of the privations and harsh treatment he endured.   http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13793a.htm

It took 30 years from the removal of the king of the Visigoths in 508 to form the papacy to arise in 538. In the process, Pope Silverius was deposed in December 536.

Looking at Iranian American interactions. Iran gave the US hostages back moments before Reagan was inaugurated in 1981 and the US under Reagan supported Iraq in the Iran-Iraq war. 27 December 1986, the Iranians were involved in Operation Karbala-4 an offensive military campaign that Iran started against Iraq.

Watch to see if history is repeated. Events were put in motion that resulted in one of the three Arian horns in the Western Roman Empire beginning be plucked up in December 536. America has also plucked up 2 horns (Iraq and Afghanistan) in the remnants of the Eastern Roman Empire with one to go. President Obama will be away from Washington DC on 27 December 2016, which is a 30 year anniversary linking Iran to President Reagan -- 30 years ago Iran was in a battle with America's ally (Iraq) A battle that Iran started. 

To learn the formation of the image beast, study the beast, the papacy. 

Now we can pray and watch and wait and see if history will be repeated or if some other events will come about to fulfill Daniel's prophecies in our time.

 

[CoAspen]

Quote

.....show myself approved of God.....

I think that part of your statement shows the difference between you and most, not all, of the rest of SDAism. We simply don't believe 'our works' will help in any approval by God. Christ paid the bill, God has already accepted the bill as paid in full.

[Samie]

23 hours ago, hch said:

The ships of Chittim will come against him (possibly while he is in Hawaii next week since Daniel 11 says he returns...returns to D.C. from being out of town?? returns to FIGHT the KoS (Iran) who was in conflict with America when Reagan was inaugurated???). 

You seem to believe that Obama is the vile person king of Dan 11.  Obama is either Christian, Muslim, or both.  As such he believes in God. Hence, he doesn't seem to fit Daniel's specs of the vile person king:

Daniel 11:36-37   36 And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done.  37 Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all.

[phkrause]

9 hours ago, Samie said:

You seem to believe that Obama is the vile person king of Dan 11.  Obama is either Christian, Muslim, or both.  As such he believes in God. Hence, he doesn't seem to fit Daniel's specs of the vile person king:

Daniel 11:36-37   36 And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done.  37 Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all.

Exactly Samie!!

[hch]

21 hours ago, Samie said:

You seem to believe that Obama is the vile person king of Dan 11.  Obama is either Christian, Muslim, or both.  As such he believes in God. Hence, he doesn't seem to fit Daniel's specs of the vile person king:

Daniel 11:36-37   36 And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done.  37 Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all.

By that measurement the pope and Apostate Protestantism can't fit Bible prophecy since they claim to believe in God also

[Samie]

36 minutes ago, hch said:

By that measurement the pope and Apostate Protestantism can't fit Bible prophecy since they claim to believe in God also

We can tackle the pope and apostate protestantism later. But for now, let's first dwell on your position that Obama is the vile-person king of Dan 11:21. Do you agree that Obama doesn't fit Bible specification of the vile-person king? If you don't, can you explain how Obama fits Dan 11:36-37?  Thank you.

[Dave Watchman]

On 12/16/2016 at 9:47 AM, Samie said:

You seem to believe that Obama is the vile person king of Dan 11.  Obama is either Christian, Muslim, or both.  As such he believes in God. Hence, he doesn't seem to fit Daniel's specs of the vile person king:

Daniel 11:36-37   36 And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done.  37 Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all.

But notice how he has argued for supporting what God has said NOT to do:

"You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination.

Even allowing the transvestites the right to enter our high school washrooms.

“A woman shall not wear a man's garment, nor shall a man put on a woman's cloak, for whoever does these things is an abomination to the LORD your God.

Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers:

Nor the desire of women:



The "woman" is the Church or God's People.

Think "Bride" of Christ.

So the desire of "women" is Jesus.

Nor regard any god:
for he shall magnify himself above all:




IN CONGRESS, July 4, 1776.

When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.

"We, therefore, the representatives of the United States of America, in General Congress, assembled,
appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions,

Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between church and State. Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties.

I reciprocate your kind prayers for the protection and blessing of the common Father and Creator of man, and tender you for yourselves and your religious association, assurances of my high respect and esteem.

-Thomas Jefferson
President of the United States

(Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers)

[Samie]

3 hours ago, Dave Watchman said:

The "woman" is the Church or God's People.

Think "Bride" of Christ.

So the desire of "women" is Jesus.

Desire of "Churches"?