LifeHiscost Posted February 25, 2006 Posted February 25, 2006 Quote: benherndon said: And....we call ourselves Christians?? Ben [:"red"] "For He has said somewhere concerning the seventh day: "AND GOD RESTED ON THE SEVENTH DAY FROM ALL HIS WORKS"; and again in this passage, "THEY SHALL NOT ENTER MY REST." Therefore, since it remains for some to enter it, and those who formerly had good news preached to them failed to enter because of disobedience, He again fixes a certain day, "Today," saying through David after so long a time just as has been said before, "TODAY IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE, DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS." For if Joshua had given them rest, He would not have spoken of another day after that. So there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God. For the one who has entered His rest has himself also rested from his works, as God did from His." [/] Heb 4:4-10 [:"red"] "[Earnestly] remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy (withdrawn from common employment and dedicated to God). " [/] Exodus 20:8 AMP I know many doing just what it states here. Keep the faith! Quote Lift Jesus up!!
Robert Posted February 25, 2006 Posted February 25, 2006 Quote: Norman said: Cheating is unrighteousness. Self-seeking is unrighteousness, yet you know you do it. Are you saying that you are a babe in Christ? Quote: 1 Co 6:11 And such were some of you.... Are you saying the rest were without sin? It says, "the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God." Are you ever fully righteous outside Jesus Christ? The answer is "NO"! Growth is important, but insisting that others measure up to where you might be at is a form of legalism. That's what you guys fail to understand. Quote
Robert Posted February 25, 2006 Posted February 25, 2006 Quote: Gerry Cabalo said: Do you mean by what you said above that a believer can continue to fornicate, steal, covet and worship idols and still remain assured of salvation because those sins are no longer remembered by God? Gerry, if you can get in and yet continue to live a life of self-seeking and self-love then yes, the one who does those things above can get in. Sin is sin. You keep the letter yet fail at the law's spirit. ”God does not regard all sins as of equal magnitude; there are degrees of guilt in His estimation, as well as in that of man; but however trifling this or that wrong act may seem in the eyes of men, no sin is small in the sight of God. Man’s judgment is partial, imperfect; but God estimates all things as they really are. The drunkard is despised and is told that his sin will exclude him from heaven; [:"red"]while pride, selfishness, and covetousness too often go unrebuked[/]. But these are sins that are especially offensive to God; for they are contrary to the benevolence of His character, to that unselfish love which is the very atmosphere of the unfallen universe. He who falls into some of the grosser sins [like the ones you listed, Gerry] may feel a sense of his shame and poverty and his need of the grace of Christ; but pride [i.e., spiritual pride] feels no need, and so it closes the heart against Christ and the infinite blessings He came to give." [sC 30] Quote
Robert Posted February 25, 2006 Posted February 25, 2006 Quote: Rob said: Quote: ....to follow in Christ's path of self-denial is to live solely for others even to the point of homelessness, but I don't see you doing that! Norman said: Not so.... “To one who, during the Saviour's ministry, offered to follow him as his disciple, Jesus said, "The foxes have holes, and the birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head." [:"red"]Those who follow him must share his poverty.[/] "If any man will come after me [i.e., live Christ’s life]," he declares, "let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me." "So shall ye be my disciples." [RH 7-4-1912] In explaining love, Ellen states: “…There will be no rivalry, no self-seeking, no desire for the highest place. [Now she gives an example:] You will have that love which seeks not her own, but another's wealth.” [DA 439] “The Prince of heaven [Jesus] came to this world to live in human nature a perfect life, a life that would be an example for all human beings. He lived a life free from self-seeking, [how?] wholly given to the service of others.” “So therefore, no one of you can be My disciple who does not give up all his own possessions." [Luke 14:33] Quote
Robert Posted February 25, 2006 Posted February 25, 2006 Quote: Norman said: Rob the commandments in Deut were spoken by Moses. He was repeating what had taken place. Moses wrote down both versions in the book of the law: Ex 20:1 Then God spoke all these words, saying... Deut 5:4 “The Lord spoke to you face to face at the mountain from the midst of the fire, 5 while I was standing between the Lord and you at that time, to declare to you the word of the Lord; for you were afraid because of the fire and did not go up the mountain. He said.... Maybe you have a point..., but that still doesn't answer why Moses changed the reason one keeps the Sabbath! Quote
Moderators Gerr Posted February 25, 2006 Moderators Posted February 25, 2006 Thanks for your answer, but I am waiting for Robert to give his, because I am not sure he understands what you know. The drift of his posts seem to me is that he thinks the believer can, that is why I keep asking for a clarification. And all he has to say is "yes" or "no". Gerry Quote
Moderators Gerr Posted February 25, 2006 Moderators Posted February 25, 2006 Quote: Robert said: Quote: Gerry Cabalo said: Do you mean by what you said above that a believer can continue to fornicate, steal, covet and worship idols and still remain assured of salvation because those sins are no longer remembered by God? Gerry, if you can get in and yet continue to live a life of self-seeking and self-love then yes, the one who does those things above can get in. Sin is sin. You keep the letter yet fail at the law's spirit. [:"blue"]Since you can't give a straight answer to this ignorant man, me, I take then that your answer is yes. Let Paul speak to you then. Note that he was not speaking to unbelievers but to the Corinthian believers. [:"red"]Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. AND SUCH WERE SOME OF YOU. But you WERE washed, but you WERE sanctified, but you WERE justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God. 1 Cor 6:9-11 NKJ Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outburs of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will NOT inherit the kingdom of God. Gal 5:19-21 NKJ [/] [/] Gerry Quote
Moderators Gerr Posted February 25, 2006 Moderators Posted February 25, 2006 Quote: Robert said: Quote: Gerry Cabalo said: Do you mean by what you said above that a believer can continue to fornicate, steal, covet and worship idols and still remain assured of salvation because those sins are no longer remembered by God? Gerry, if you can get in and yet continue to live a life of self-seeking and self-love then yes, the one who does those things above can get in. Sin is sin. You keep the letter yet fail at the law's spirit. [:"blue"]You have set the bar of godliness so high, i.e. to become exactly like God, a clone of God, thus echoing the devil's promise to A & E in paradise. And since no one can be that, then you have no choice but to conclude that God must therefore admit into heaven everyone who claims to believe in His name even if they continue to live like unbelievers. You obviously don't know what living by the spirit of the law means. Obeying the spirit of the law means that one may come short of what it demands, but when done whole-heartedly, done without any reservations whatsoever, one has fulfilled the spirit of the law. That is what Paul meant when he said, "He who loves another has fulfilled the law." Rom 13:10 NKJ. Or as the New Legalist Translation says, "if you love your neighbor, you will fulfill all the requirements of the law." [/] Gerry Quote
Moderators Gerr Posted February 25, 2006 Moderators Posted February 25, 2006 Quote: “So therefore, no one of you can be My disciple who does not give up all his own possessions." [Luke 14:33] [:"blue"]If you really believe this, that NO ONE and that includes you, can be His disciple unless you give up all your possessions, how come you who so smugly proclaim that you are "in Christ", have not gotten rid of all your possessions yet? [/] Gerry Quote
Norman Byers, N.D. Posted February 25, 2006 Posted February 25, 2006 Rob said, Quote: Self-seeking is unrighteousness, yet you know you do it. What I meant by saying that cheating is unrighteousness is that along with the other things that Paul said were unrighteous, so is cheating. You implied that cheating is not by your comment. Self seeking is unrighteousness and so are those things that Paul stated in 1 Cor 6. Quote: Are you saying that you are a babe in Christ? By the way, the lot of us here are babes, you included. A mature Christian in not one who has a lot of knowledge, (which we have) but one who lives a life of selflessness (which few do) in seeking to bring the Gospel to others. Just because we are not mature it doesn't mean we lower the standard and come up with a self defeating theory to comfort our Laodicean minds. It should cause us to beg God for help so we can stop playing "Christian Man" and live a righteous life in Christ. Quote: Are you saying the rest were without sin? I'm saying that there were some there who were not doing those things that Paul listed in 1 Cor 6. He specifically said "and such WERE some of you." Define "some" and "were" and you'll get it. Quote: Are you ever fully righteous outside Jesus Christ? What, in my response, made you think that I thought otherwise? Quote: Growth is important, but insisting that others measure up to where you might be at is a form of legalism. Are you arguing with yourself again? I never said that; where do you see that I have said that? Quote: That's what you guys fail to understand. So instead I should believe as you do and I'll be ok? As Christ did, so He tells us by their fruit ye shall know them. He said the works bear witness of who I am. I apply that to myself and see what my beliefs lead me to do. If I see that I'm not becoming like Christ then I know something's wrong. I have believed as you do once and it led me to be critical and separate myself from the brethren and I didn't want to hear anything anyone had to say. I just thought "they don't know what I know" and Rob, you are the same. It's a byproduct of what you believe, not that you're inherently that way. This theory is the legalist's solution to feeling good about what they can't do and then to make them feel good about what they aren't doing. And I was a legalist once as you were and probably more so, so I know where of I speak by experience. The same thing is happening with those whom I know that believe this theory of self defeat, who were once strict legalists. Norman, the free man in Christ Quote The unconditional pardon of sin never has been, and never will be. PP 522
Norman Byers, N.D. Posted February 25, 2006 Posted February 25, 2006 Hi Gerry, You said, Quote: [:"blue"] You have set the bar of godliness so high, i.e. to become exactly like God, a clone of God, thus echoing the devil's promise to A & E in paradise. And since no one can be that, then you have no choice but to conclude that God must therefore admit into heaven everyone who claims to believe in His name even if they continue to live like unbelievers. [/] Very well put my brother, well put. Norman Quote The unconditional pardon of sin never has been, and never will be. PP 522
Norman Byers, N.D. Posted February 25, 2006 Posted February 25, 2006 Rob said, Quote: Maybe you have a point..., but that still doesn't answer why Moses changed the reason one keeps the Sabbath! Moses didn't change the reason why one keeps the Sabbath, he was simply making a statement to them to remind them who their God is. The One who delivered them from Egypt so they could come and worship Him and be His people. Just as we are to remember the One who has made us and freed us from spiritual Egypt (the house of bondage to sin) and now we can worship Him on the 7th day as a sign that we are re-created and not in bondage to sin. That is the substance of the Sabbath. Exo 20:2 I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. Exo 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me. Deu 5:6 I am the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage. Deu 5:7 Thou shalt have none other gods before me. This is undisputable. Norman Quote The unconditional pardon of sin never has been, and never will be. PP 522
Nicodema Posted February 25, 2006 Posted February 25, 2006 Quote: Gerry Cabalo said: [:"red"] Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. AND SUCH WERE SOME OF YOU. But you WERE washed, but you WERE sanctified, but you WERE justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God. 1 Cor 6:9-11 NKJ Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outburs of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will NOT inherit the kingdom of God. Gal 5:19-21 NKJ [/] Interesting list Paul presents here. Anyone else ever been tempted to break this list down into things a person CAN control about himself versus things he CANNOT? I've been tempted to do this just to see what it yields ... here goes ... ======================================= CAN be controlled by oneself adultery fornication uncleanness idolatry murders drunkenness revelries ======================================= CANNOT be controlled by oneself lewdness hatred contentions jealousies outbursts of wrath heresies envy ======================================= DEPENDS ON what type of manifestation thereof adultery/fornication idolatry selfish ambitions dissensions sorcery ======================================= What would your list look like? How many of these do you perceive as things one can control about oneself and how many are things one cannot? I put things in the first category which strike me as premeditated. They require not just a willingness to do them but an active seeking out of them and an actual plan to carry them through. Some of these in a non-literal sense also fall in the last category. I put things in the middle category that tend to come forth spontaneously from a person and therefore is not premeditated nor the product of a conscious choice. These things tend to be automatic responses, reactions, or developments internally. Heresies is really playing it free because none of us can know for certain whether our understanding of Scripture is objectively 100% accurate or not; therefore ANYTHING could be a heresy, even that we take for absolute truth, and we'd never know one way or another; it's just a matter of one interpretation of Scripture pitted against someone else's. Hatred, jealousy, envy, all are feelings that arise inside at different times. We don't choose them, though we can choose whether to act on them or not, but choosing not to act on them still doesn't make them go away, and fighting them -- a form of psychological denial -- only drives them underground; it does not eliminate them. "Outbursts" of wrath I think is the clearest one yet: what is an OUTBURST, by its VERY NATURE, if not something one cannot control? Hello, that's why it's called an "outburst". I put sorcery in the last category for reasons only a former sorceror would probably understand. Too "outre" to bother describing here, but by describing why adultery and idolatry are here as well you might glean the gist. Adultery and idolatry can take place spontaneously "in the heart" through lust, desire, admiration, the drawing out of the affections, etc. and these forms don't require the premeditative process the more "concrete" and "literal" forms require. Sorcery operates likewise -- in fact millions of people who don't even believe in such things practice various forms of low-level "black magick" EVERY DAY and think of it as just typical human behavior. With artful wordsmithing and little social schemes, we are a nation bred as low-level sorcerors from birth. At any rate, I'm glad Paul specifies that those who PRACTICE such things will not inherit the kingdom -- instead of making it seem like those who STRUGGLE AGAINST those things would be thrown out on their ear, because that would mean none of us "get in" and Christ would have died for nothing. Quote "After such knowledge, what forgiveness?" -- T.S. Eliot
Norman Byers, N.D. Posted February 27, 2006 Posted February 27, 2006 Hi Nico, I was intrigued when I saw what you had done. It reminded me of what I had posted on the Explanation of Romans 8:1 the KJV. http://adventistforum.com/ubbtreads/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/202010/an/0/page/0#202010 I ended up making it into a sermon and shared it at two churches and folks were blessed, When they ask for my notes I know they liked it. In a nutshell I was saying that we have sins of the flesh and that God does not condemn us for these. Do you remember me telling you that we are born that we and God does not condemn us for being born sinners? We have no control over these and God knows that, He does not condemn us for something we can't control. Therefore we should not condemn ourselves. As we understand this we are strengthen and have the ability to use our joy (the joy of the Lord gives us strnegth) to help us fight the temptations of the mind that Satan attacks us with. You have listed the different sins, I listed two categories. (Sins of the flesh and sins of the spirit) 1Jo 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, (those to are of the flesh) and the pride of life, (That is of the spirit) is not of the Father, but is of the world. My point was that (and I really don't have the ability to say it clearly) now that we don't condemn ourselves for the flesh and it's desires we can focus on the temptations that Satan throws at us. Let me try to explain it this way. A cocain addict who has used for years, can stop for a year but then one day he's overwhelmed with a desire to use. If he is not aware of what is happening he will fall. But if he knows that what he is experiencing is the residue of the drug that's in his system he can overcome because of that knowledge. That's what it's like with the desires of the flesh, we know they're there and always will be, so why let that crush us. You see, by knowing we can say no to the desires of the flesh we have a knowledge that tells us, "Hey I don't have to condemn myself" and as we do that we also have greater ability to say no to the temptations of Satan. His temptations we can overcome, and if we choose not to those are the ones that will affect us deeply spiritually, in that we will be choosing to willfully sin against God rather than it just being in us and all of a sudden bam! we fallen into it. Just so I'm not misunderstood, I'm not saying that all this is good, but it's reality, also some of it can be overcome if we educate and strengthen ourselves. Let me know if you're interested I'll send you the sermon. Quote: At any rate, I'm glad Paul specifies that those who PRACTICE such things will not inherit the kingdom -- instead of making it seem like those who STRUGGLE AGAINST those things would be thrown out on their ear, because that would mean none of us "get in" and Christ would have died for nothing. You know, you have hit the nail right on the head. I honestly believe (because I did it) that many of us condemn ourselves for being tempted and think, "How could I think such a thing?" Easy, we are born that way and we have an enemy that tempts us and then deceives us into thinking that these are our thoughts. Not to say that we can't tempt ourselves, but this is one of his prefered methods of getting us down. Take care and God bless, Norman Quote The unconditional pardon of sin never has been, and never will be. PP 522
LifeHiscost Posted February 27, 2006 Posted February 27, 2006 Quote: Nicodema said: Interesting list Paul presents here. Anyone else ever been tempted to break this list down into things a person CAN control about himself versus things he CANNOT? ======================================= CAN be controlled by oneself ======================================= [:"red"] "I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing. " [/] John 15:5 NASB Quote: CANNOT be controlled by oneself At any rate, [:"red"] "Since all have sinned and are falling short of the honor and glory which God bestows " [/] Romans 3:23 AMP Quote: I'm glad Paul specifies that those who PRACTICE such things will not inherit the kingdom -- instead of making it seem like those who STRUGGLE AGAINST those things would be thrown out on their ear, because that would mean none of us "get in" and Christ would have died for nothing. I'd say that's a correct assessment. [:"red"] "For judgment will be merciless to one who has shown no mercy; mercy triumphs over judgment." [/] James 2:13 NASB [:"red"] "Bear one another's burdens, and thereby fulfill the law of Christ." [/] Galatians 6:2 NASB Keep looking up! Quote Lift Jesus up!!
Clio Posted February 27, 2006 Posted February 27, 2006 Quote: benherndon said: Hey I've been gone for over a week but I've been watching what is said here and its depressing as Hades to me.....who would want to join this organization if they knew what was going on here? And....we call ourselves Christians?? I am reminded and condemned by 1 Tim 1 where it says those who teach the 'law' "do not know what they are talking about OR what they so confidently affirm"--now read what follows. BINGO!!!! Ben To make it even worse, Dr. B, I'm not sure anyone besides Gerry even noticed, and I think Gerry missed your point. Quote A heart where He alone has first place.
Moderators Gerr Posted February 28, 2006 Moderators Posted February 28, 2006 I believe I understood what he meant. I took it as an oblique barb in my direction, that I teach about the law but don't really know what I am talking about, or not very Christian-like. I just let it slide and not take it too seriously or personally. I've been called worse names. Gerry Quote
Robert Posted February 28, 2006 Posted February 28, 2006 Quote: Gerry Cabalo said: Quote: “So therefore, no one of you can be My disciple who does not give up all his own possessions ." [Luke 14:33] [:"blue"]If you really believe this, that NO ONE and that includes you, can be His disciple unless you give up all your possessions, how come you who so smugly proclaim that you are "in Christ", have not gotten rid of all your possessions yet? [/] Gerry My point is that if you make one command a requirement for heaven then you must obey everything Christ commands. Apparently you have a hard time with the above quote, which must mean you love your possessions more than God. No heaven for you. Rob Quote
Moderators Gerr Posted February 28, 2006 Moderators Posted February 28, 2006 Quote: Robert said: Quote: Gerry Cabalo said: Quote: “So therefore, no one of you can be My disciple who does not give up all his own possessions." [Luke 14:33] [:"blue"]If you really believe this, that NO ONE and that includes you, can be His disciple unless you give up all your possessions, how come you who so smugly proclaim that you are "in Christ", have not gotten rid of all your possessions yet? [/] Gerry My point is that if you make one command a requirement for heaven then you must obey everything Christ commands. Apparently you have a hard time with the above quote, which must mean you love your possessions more than God. No heaven for you. Rob [:"blue"]Ah, oh. No requirements. No conditions. No commands. No obedience. And heaven is Robert's. Let's see. Lucifer & his followers were booted out of heaven because they could no longer abide by the law of heaven, and they are waiting to be fried. Adam & Eve lost Paradise because they wouldn't keep their hands off the forbidden fruit. Sodom & Gomorrah were burned up because of lust, pride, eating too much, not working enough, & not helping the poor & needy. The Israelite Northern & Southern kingdoms went into captivity because of idolatry. Saul was rejected because he spared the choicest of the flock which he was commanded to destroy & didn't have the patience to wait for the prophet. Judas lost his life because of betraying his Lord. Ananias & Saphira fell dead for lying. No heaven for all these beings because of their disobedience. But Robert can do all the things they did and he claims heaven is his! [/] Gerry Quote
Clio Posted February 28, 2006 Posted February 28, 2006 Quote: Gerry Cabalo said: I believe I understood what he meant. I took it as an oblique barb in my direction, that I teach about the law but don't really know what I am talking about, or not very Christian-like. I just let it slide and not take it too seriously or personally. I've been called worse names. Gerry I didn't see it that way. Quote A heart where He alone has first place.
benherndon Posted February 28, 2006 Author Posted February 28, 2006 It was not meant as a 'barb' in anybody's direction more than anybody else's....it wasn't meant as a barb at all. It WAS meant as something that we should all take into consideration....a lot of the comments have been in regard to 'the Law' and the commands of 'the Law'...but since people read ONLY words and not attitudes or facial/body expressions which are 'language' also, there is too much room for making assumptions about how and what has been written in these posts. However, it was meant to all who bear down pretty heavily on 'the Law' and the pretty strict keeping of it as a qualification of any other comment about salvation. There is a problem in our discussions here....we do not agree on what is 'sin' or what 'specific sin' we are referring to when we refer to 'sins'----in the minds of most, I presume them to mean...when they discuss the Ten Commandments...most being SDA's...they are 'obliquely' meaning in their minds and hearts to be speaking of the Ten Cs particularly in regard to the 4th one---the one that shone the brightest in our founder's visions when she saw the Ten Commandments. *I am not right in presuming most who speak to 'the Law' are really referring to that one?* Again I have to state the caveat---I am not against the Sabbath nor am I against special worship on that day!!! What I am against is the teaching that the NT commands Sabbath observance upon the Christian. Why am I opposed to that? Because of Mark 2:27---Christ is Lord of the Sabbath also! (be careful to not misinterpret that sentence which is common in SDA circles!) and Matt 22:36-40 (Jesus explains the two commandments He emphasizes) John 3:16-18 (How the Christian is saved in simple terms) Acts 15:19 (don't make it difficult for the Gentiles), Romans 3:20---(no one is made righteous by observing the law no matter how well done it is) Rom 6:14 (we are not under law but under Grace----no, we are not under some combination of the two, its either one OR the other!) 2Cor 3:11 & 14 (the Ten Commandments fade away and Grace is what lasts) Gal 3:25 (When Christ brought Christians Grace we were no longer under the Law as the Jews previously were) Gal 4:30 (The slave woman and her child, representing the Old Covenant, are 'cast out') Eph 2:15 (Christ abolishes the authority of the "law" over the Christian) Col 2:14 (Christ cancels the 'bond' against us created by our breaking 'the Law', nailing it to the cross.) 1Tim 1:8..("the Law" is not for 'good men' but is for evil men. One must deal with the law wisely....SDAs as a group do not do that, IMO.) There are a host of other texts and references which back up what I am concluding it seems to me. Maybe the problem is that either I cannot read correctly or 'haha' 'hehe' some of you can't read.....which is it? "Can't read"??...or don't wanna' read? Fortunately, for all of us, right or wrong, when we believe and trust Him we will be saved even if we have failed to realize the truths of the NT properly. IN haste and not corrected for spelling or grammar or exact text references. No Barbs were intended to anyone! Education? Maybe....but its difficult to educate when we dont' wanna' be educated. Ben Quote
archierieus Posted February 28, 2006 Posted February 28, 2006 Quote: benherndon said: What I am against is the teaching that the NT commands Sabbath observance upon the Christian. Why am I opposed to that? Because of Mark 2:27---Christ is Lord of the Sabbath also! (be careful to not misinterpret that sentence which is common in SDA circles!) and Matt 22:36-40 (Jesus explains the two commandments He emphasizes) John 3:16-18 (How the Christian is saved in simple terms) Acts 15:19 (don't make it difficult for the Gentiles), Romans 3:20---(no one is made righteous by observing the law no matter how well done it is) Rom 6:14 (we are not under law but under Grace----no, we are not under some combination of the two, its either one OR the other!) 2Cor 3:11 & 14 (the Ten Commandments fade away and Grace is what lasts) Gal 3:25 (When Christ brought Christians Grace we were no longer under the Law as the Jews previously were) Gal 4:30 (The slave woman and her child, representing the Old Covenant, are 'cast out') Eph 2:15 (Christ abolishes the authority of the "law" over the Christian) Col 2:14 (Christ cancels the 'bond' against us created by our breaking 'the Law', nailing it to the cross.) 1Tim 1:8..("the Law" is not for 'good men' but is for evil men. I think the points you have raised in this paragraph merit a separate discussion, on a new thread. This thread has wound into several different directions. I would be interested in starting with Mt. 22:36-40. Ben, how about starting a thread? Or shall I? Dave Quote
Moderators Gerr Posted February 28, 2006 Moderators Posted February 28, 2006 My apologies, Ben, if no barbs were intended. Gerry Quote
benherndon Posted March 1, 2006 Author Posted March 1, 2006 No apology necessary or desired, Gerry. Just a discussion without body language or audio accompanying it. You and I have some disagreements.....but we don't lose any sleep over it, do we? I hope not. If anything those disagreements just make us study and look harder and research our own conclusions more intently, probably. I have learned so much over these years discussing with you dear folk.. Those who oppose me stimulate me to double and triple check my own previous conclusions and...so...I learn and I read more Bible than I would have otherwise. What would I learn if I just listened to myself alone? (not much!) Ben Quote
LifeHiscost Posted March 1, 2006 Posted March 1, 2006 Quote: Gerry Cabalo said: Thanks for your answer, but I am waiting for Robert to give his, because I am not sure he understands what you know. The drift of his posts seem to me is that he thinks the believer can, that is why I keep asking for a clarification. And all he has to say is "yes" or "no". Gerry I'm reminded of the scene of Martin Luther, standing before certain religious dignitaries when on trial for heresy I believe, making the statement, 'Here I stand. I can do no other.' That scene and others that might be used as examples of marvelous spiritual strength under daunting circumstances makes me wonder if we would be doing an injustice to God's Word if we were to understand an implication, perhaps not evident, in the first text below. It is evident in the next text I've included, with no ambiguity, and seemingly verified or corroborative in the use of thought with the next following text. [:"red"] "Submit therefore to God [/](and you will)[:"red"]Resist the devil and he will flee from you." [/] James 4:7 NASB parenthesis mine LHC [:"red"] "If you love Me, you will keep My commandments." [/]John 14:15 NASB [:"red"] "Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all of you be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble." [/] 1 Peter 5:5 KJV Keep the faith! Quote Lift Jesus up!!
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.