I'm A Good Man--most of the time!

[Stan]

hmmm did ANYONE watch the video??????? hmmmmmm

[archierieus]

Quote:

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Stan Jensen said:

hmmm did ANYONE watch the video??????? hmmmmmm

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I have no doubt that presentations such as the video present valuable perspectives and insights. At the same time, I would like to believe that some progress is being made on this thread, although it entails wading through a lot of rhetoric. The process of exploring doctrinal perspectives and evaluating them in light of the Word, is often enjoyable.

Regards, Dave

[LifeHiscost]

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Robert said:

>>The law doesn't give out credit for "effort"<<...it demands perfect selflessness.

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That perfection is found in accepting the righteousness of Christ as our hope for eternal salvation, at which time we are accounted worthy through His shed blood, cleansing us from all unrightousness.

Re >> << [:"blue"] "When it is in the heart to obey God, when efforts are put forth to this end, Jesus accepts this disposition and effort as man's best service, and He makes up for the deficiency with His own divine merit." [/]

"My Life Today, page 250, paragraph 6

Chapter Title: A Sanctified Life

[Robert]

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LifeHiscost said:

"When it is in the heart to obey God, when efforts are put forth to this end, Jesus accepts this disposition and effort as man's best service, and He makes up for the deficiency with His own divine merit."

---

That sure looks like "our best" + "His righteousness" = salvation. Man...we love that "credit". I guess some will be singing, "Oh, that will be glory for ME."

[Robert]

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archierieus said:

Quote:

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Robert said:

Yes...if she/he is depending on those things to save her/him.

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Please state who on this thread is asserting such a thing--that is, to depend on doing those things to save him or her.

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That's you message...no obedience, no heaven. Again, how much obedience is necessary [in your view] before one can gain heaven? Should one keep at least letter of the law? What about its spirit, i.e., "love is not self-seeking"? How much is good enough?

[Robert]

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archierieus said:

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Robert said:

"God has presented rules, the Ten Commandments,

which He expects us to obey"

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Well if that don't beat all! Alright, you have clearly stated it. You consider it legalistic, that God expects us to obey the Ten Commandments. I am truly amazed. In fact, right now, I am in a state of disbelief. But, you did clearly state your position, and that has been helpful.

Dave

---

Yes...because that is the terms of the Old Covenant!

Deut. 4:13 “So He declared to you His covenant which He commanded you to perform, that is, the Ten Commandments"

EGW: The terms of the "old covenant" were, Obey and live: "If a man do, he shall even live in them" (Ezekiel 20:11; Leviticus 18:5); but "cursed be he that confirmeth not all the words of this law to do them." Deuteronomy 27:26.

[Gerr]

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Robert said:

Quote:

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Gerry Cabalo said:

So John is lying by talking out of both corners of his mouth?

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No, John is not lying...YOU are! John meant what he said....None of us are fully without sin [self-seeking].

---

[:"blue"]Well, let's see who the Bible says is the liar.

[:"red"] "And how can we be sure that we belong to him? By obeying his commandments. If someone says, 'I belong to God,' but doesn't obey God's commandments, that person is a liar and does not live in the truth. But those who obey God's word really do love him. That is the way to know whether or not we live in him. Those who say they live in [remember your "in" Christ motif?] God should live their lives as Christ did." 1 Jn 2:3-6 NLT [/]

[/]

Gerry

[Gerr]

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Ron Lambert said:

I've been off the internet for two days, and already there is such a vast exchange of comments it is impractical for me to try to encompass all of it. I just want to underline something in that familar yet too-seldom remembered text, Isaiah 64:6:

"But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away."

Please note that in the above, it does not say that all our sins are as filthy rags. It says all our

righteousnesses

are as filthy rags.

Instead of jumping to some hasty means of explaining this away or attempting to divert attention from it, let's ask ourselves what, truly, this must mean.

---

[:"blue"]All right, let us look at Isa 64:6. Who is Isaiah talking about who righteousness is but filthy rags? Was he talking about believing Israel? Or was he walking about apostate Israel?

Go to Isa 1. God through Isaiah says:

[:"red"]I have nourished and brought up children,

And they have rebelled against Me;

The ox knows its owner

And the donkey its master's cribbut Israel does not know,

My people do not consider.

Alas, sinful nation,

A people laden with iniquity,

A brood of evildoers,

Children who are corrupters!

They have forsaken the LORD,

They have provoked to anger

They Holy One of Israel,

They have turned away backward.

The whole head is sick,

And the whole heart faints,

From the sole of the foot even to the head,

There is no soundness in it,

But wounds and bruises and putrefying sores; 1:3-5

Hear the word of the LORD,

You rulers of Sodom;

Give ear to the law of our God,

You people of Gomorrah' 1:10 [/]

They thought they were righteous & doing righteous things because they still came to God to offer sacrifices, 1:11. They thought they were righteous & doing righteous deeds because they came to the Temple courst on the appointed feast days in the New Moons & Sabbaths with their prayers, 1:12-15. But what did God say? He hated their hypocrisy.

Now let's turn to Isa 64:6. Whose righteousness is as filthy menstrual rags?

If in the believer, [:"red"]"it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure," Phil 2:13, [/]if the believer is God's [:"red"]"workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them," [/]how then can God's works be called "filthy rags?" [/]

Gerry

[Gerr]

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Robert said:

• "Go now and
  leave
  your life of sin." Jn 8:11 NIV
  "Go and sin no more." NLT
  "From now on sin no more." NASB
  "Stop sinning or something worse may happen to you." Jn 5:14 NIV
  "Do not sin anymore, so that nothing worse happens to you." NASB

Let me give more quotes:

"You, therefore, must be perfect,

as

your heavenly Father is perfect." [Matt 5:48 RSV]

"For not the hearers of the Law are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified." [Rom 2:13 NASB]

"For it is written: 'Cursed is everyone who does not continue

to do everything

written in the Book of the Law'" [Gal 3:10]

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As for me, I am claiming His promise that by abiding in Him and through the power of His indwelling Helper, that Almighty Spirit that raised His Son from the grave, that the promise in 1 Jn 3:6 that "no one who lives in him keeps on sinning,"

will be fulfilled in me

.

---

Will be fulfilled in me? That's future tense, Gerry. What about now? What if you died now in your sins, not having been perfected?

Rob

---

[:"blue"]Then let me change it to: "is being fulfilled in me."

What awaits those who continue to live in sin?

[:"red"] "There will be trouble and calamity for everyone who keeps on sinning. ..He will pour out his anger and wrath on those who live for themselves, who refuse to obey the truth and practice their evil deeds." Rom 2:9,8 NLT [/]

How can you quote Paul who says: [:"red"]"For it is not merely knowing the law that brings God's approval. Those who obey the law will be declared right in God's sight," Rom 2:13 NLT, [/]and then claim that I, or others who also teach not just belief but also obedience, are legalists and not Paul?

You claim it is impossible to keep God's law, but John says, [:"red"]"Loving God means keeping his commandments, and really, that isn't difficult!" 1 Jn 5:3 NLT. And Paul says that when we love, even with our imperfect love, "satisfies all of God's requirements." Rom 13:10 NLT[/]

Now are you going to call me a liar again for quoting what John says just like you did when I claimed what John promised? i.e. that those who " [:"red"]continue to live in him,..won't sin either?" 1 Jn 3:6 NLT. In fact he is so emphatic about this truth that he repeated it 3X!!! See also 1 Jn 3:9 & 5:18. [/] [/]

Gerry

[Gerr]

And what are the terms of the New Covenant? You can willfully break them and still be saved? Is that what it says?

[:"red"]"But this is the new covenant I will make

with the people of Israel on that day, says the Lord:

I will put my laws in their minds

so they will understand them,

and I will write them on their hearts so they will obey

them.

I will be their God,

and they will be my people....." " Heb 8:10 NLT See also Heb 10:16

Gerry

[archierieus]

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Robert said:

That's you message...no obedience, no heaven.

---

You have not provided backquotes from my post(s). Instead, you have made an assertion about what you claim I am saying. I am waiting for the actual quote(s).

[archierieus]

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Robert said:

Yes...because that is the terms of the Old Covenant!

---

Therefore, Rob, according to you, God does not expect us to keep the Sabbath, God does not expect us to not commit murder, God does not expect us to not commit adultery, God does not expect us to not steal, God does not expect us to have no idols, etc., etc. Is that indeed what you are saying? No barrage of quotes, please, simply a yes or a no.

[Clio]

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Robert said:

Quote:

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LifeHiscost said:

"When it is in the heart to obey God, when efforts are put forth to this end, Jesus accepts this disposition and effort as man's best service, and He makes up for the deficiency with His own divine merit."

---

That sure looks like "our best" + "His righteousness" = salvation. Man...we love that "credit". I guess some will be singing, "Oh, that will be glory for ME."

---

I thought anything EGW wrote was ok by you? Are you saying LHC's quote from her is wrong? You are saying her inspired statement is legalistic?

[Ron Lambert]

Gerry, the prophet Isaiah included himself in the statement in Isaiah 64:6: "all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags." Did not Isaiah have the Holy Spirit working in him? He must have, since he had the gift of prophecy, which is a gift of the Holy Spirit.

[Gerr]

Quote:

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Ron Lambert said:

Gerry, the prophet Isaiah included himself in the statement in Isaiah 64:6: "all

our

righteousnesses are as filthy rags." Did not Isaiah have the Holy Spirit working in him? He must have, since he had the gift of prophecy, which is a gift of the Holy Spirit.

---

[:"blue"]Don't we often say "we" even though we ourselves are not guilty? Look at Daniel. In his prayer in Dan 9. He says: [/]

[:"red"]"We have sinned, committed iniquity, acted wickedly, and rebelled, even turning aside from Thy commandments and ordinances.

Moreover, we have not listened to Thy servants the prophets..." [/]

[:"blue"]Can you truly say Daniel was guilty of those sins he enumerated?

Now look at Isa 64:5,6 again.. "Behold, Thou was angry, for we sinned." Was God angry at Isaiah?

"For all of us have become like one who is unclean."

Was Isaiah unclean? The one who knew the ONE who could wash him & make him clean? Who knew the ONE who could make his sins that are as scarlet into white as snow? Knew the ONE who could turn sins that are red like crimson into white as wool? Isa 1:16-19. [/]

Are you of the same opinion as Robert that a believer can continue to live in sin and still remain in a state of salvation?

Gerry

[Ron Lambert]

Gerry, show me any human being on this planet who is living without any sin in his heart or life. Would you present yourself as exhibit "A"?

When we think of sin solely in terms of 1 John 3:4, it is impossible for us to equal the Holiness of the Law of God, and the idea of sinless perfection this side of the Second Coming when our sinful nature is changed to incorruption is hopelessly discouraging to anyone who is honest. But there is another definition of sin in the Bible, Romans 14:21: "...whatsoever is not of faith is sin." Unbelief is the real foundation of sin. Adam and Eve first had to doubt the goodness of God before they actually violated His commandment.

Using this definition for sin, our real sin problem then is revealed as our not being whole-hearted in our faith. Thus the Psalmist prayed: "Teach me thy way, O LORD; I will walk in thy truth: unite my heart to fear thy name. I will praise thee, O Lord my God, with all my heart: and I will glorify thy name for evermore." (Psalms 86:11, 12) Here the Psalmist acknowledged that his real sin problem was a divided heart. He prayed for God to unite his heart, so with his whole heart he could praise God.

I believe this is the perfection that Jesus is right now seeking to develop in His people--perfection of faith, meaning whole-hearted faith in Him. This does not seem so impossible and discouraging. Jesus indicated what would be His principal concern when He returns as being finding true faith among His people. He said: "...Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?" (Luke 18:8)

I will trust in the Lord to do whatever must be done so that whatever kind of behavior must be seen is me is indeed seen in me.

Faith requires works, but works do not save, ever in any way, and faith only connects us to Christ, who stands in our place.

[Gerr]

Ron, if you search the archives, I have never advocated perfect performance either as a reality in this present body or as the basis for salvation. I agree with you that it is perfection of faith, perfection of attitude, perfection of the heart (wholeness of heart towards God), & not the perfection of performance that God is looking for. In just a previous post in this thread, I mentioned that when we lovingly obey, even if the performance comes short of what Robert demands, God accepts this imperfect but loving obedience as satisfying all the requirements of the law, Rom 13:10. But let me add, this satisfaction of the requirements of the law is NEVER meritorious for salvation. On this, we are in perfect agreement.

I do believe, however, that when we are abiding in Christ & He is abiding in us, the promise of 1 Jn 3:6,9 & 5:18 is that we will not continue to willfully/deliberately/intentionally (as the Amplified renders it) continue to sin. Sinless perfection, meaning not ever making mistakes even the unintentional/inadvertent kind is a forlorn hope this side of the Second Advent.

I see where you said that "faith requires works", but you did not anwer my question, i.e. do you hold the same opinion like Robert that one can continue to willfully/intentionally/deliberately live in sin and still enjoy the assurance of salvation?

Gerry

[Robert]

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Gerry Cabalo said:

Then let me change it to: "is being fulfilled in me."

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Really? You need to revisit Romans 3:23 and 1 John 1:8

Quote:

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NLT

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The NLT is unacceptable....It is paraphrased!

Quote:

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How can you quote Paul who says: [:"red"]"For it is not merely knowing the law that brings God's approval. Those who obey the law will be declared right in God's sight," Rom 2:13 NLT, [/]and then claim that I, or others who also teach not just belief but also obedience, are legalists and not Paul?

---

Two things:

1] The NLT is a horrible translation.

2] You are an ignorant man because you have no idea what you are quoting. This ignorance actually proves your legalistic mindset.

Here's the NASB:

11 For there is no partiality with God.

How so?

12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law;

Those who didn't have the written knowledge of the law were the Gentiles. Yet it makes no difference, they must perish without law. After all the law demands obedience, not this partial obedience that you render Gerry!

and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law;

Sinning while "under law" means judgement! Why?

Verse 13 for not the hearers of the Law are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.

Paul isn't preaching legalism, that would contradict Romans 3:28 -- "For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law." Paul is merely stressing a truth. And that truth is to be under law is to be under condemnation. Why?

Rom 3:9 What then? Are we [Jews] better than they [Genitles, spiritually]? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin; 10 as it is written,“There is none righteous, not even one."

Rob

[Robert]

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archierieus said:

Quote:

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Robert said:

Yes...because that is the terms of the Old Covenant!

---

Therefore, Rob, according to you, God does not expect us to keep the Sabbath, God does not expect us to not commit murder, God does not expect us to not commit adultery, God does not expect us to not steal, God does not expect us to have no idols, etc., etc. Is that indeed what you are saying? No barrage of quotes, please, simply a yes or a no.

---

Actually God's law requires much more....In a nutshell it requires agape love - a love that is not self-seeking! There YOU fail...No heaven for you...only a lake of fire.

So you keep listing the rules and I'll keep listing the spirit of the law. Do you still wish to be "under law"?

As to self-seeking...please remember, "Even sinners love their own."

[Robert]

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Gerry Cabalo said:

NLT

---

NLT = New legalist's Translation

Here's a non-paraphrased Bible:

NASB Heb 10:16 “This is the covenant that I will make with them After those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws upon their heart, And upon their mind I will write them,”

No problem! In my mind...my desires are in harmony with the principle of God's selfless love.....

He then says, 17 “And their sins and their lawless deeds

I will remember no more.”

Please note sinning after conversion is no longer remembered by God? Why? He sees us spotless in Jesus.

Now look at Paul:

Rom 7:22 For in my inner being [heart/mind] I delight in God’s law; 23 but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members.

The mind wants to do God's will, but the flesh wants you to go after it's desires. The flesh has one advantage that your heart doesn't. It deceives...it lies...it is crafty. And many times we fall to its devices. That's not obedience that’s partial obedience.

[Robert]

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Gerry Cabalo said:

Can you truly say Daniel was guilty of those sins he enumerated?

---

Gerry, it seems that you are the only Holy Joe!

-BC- 2MR

-TI- Manuscript Releases Volume Two

-CN- 161

-CT- Holy People Do Not Claim To Be Sinless

-PR- 04

-PG- 348

Daniel was a man to whom God had given great skill and learning, and when he fasted the angel came to him and said, "Thou are greatly beloved." And he fell prostrate before the angel. He did not say, Lord, I have been very faithful to You and I have done everything to honor You and defend Your word and name. Lord, You know how faithful I was at the king's table, and how I maintained my integrity when they cast me into the den of lions. Was that the way Daniel prayed to God? No. He prayed and confessed his sins, and said, Hear O Lord, and deliver; we have departed from Thy Word and have sinned. And when he saw the angel, he said, My comeliness was turned into corruption. He could not look upon the angel's face, and he had no strength; it was all gone.

-BC- RC

-TI- Reflecting Christ

-CN- 76

-CT- God Answers Daniel's Fervent Prayer

-PR- 02

-PG- 90

"I Daniel alone saw the vision. . . . And there remained no strength in me: for my comeliness was turned in me into corruption" (Dan. 10:7,8). . . . All who are truly sanctified will have a similar experience. The clearer their views of the greatness, glory, and perfection of Christ, the more vividly will they see their own weakness and imperfection. They will have no disposition to claim a sinless character; that which has appeared right and comely in themselves will, in contrast with Christ's purity and glory, appear only as unworthy and corruptible. It is when men are separated from God, when they have very indistinct views of Christ, that they say, "I am sinless; I am sanctified."

[Gerr]

Quote:

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Robert said:

Quote:

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Gerry Cabalo said:

Then let me change it to: "is being fulfilled in me."

---

Really? You need to revisit Romans 3:23 and 1 John 1:8

Quote:

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NLT

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The NLT is unacceptable....It is paraphrased!

Quote:

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How can you quote Paul who says: [:"red"]"For it is not merely knowing the law that brings God's approval. Those who obey the law will be declared right in God's sight," Rom 2:13 NLT, [/]and then claim that I, or others who also teach not just belief but also obedience, are legalists and not Paul?

---

Two things:

1] The NLT is a horrible translation.

---

[:"blue"]Really? What qualifications do you have in the Biblical languages to make this conclusion? [/]

Quote:

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2] You are an ignorant man because you have no idea what you are quoting. This ignorance actually proves your legalistic mindset.

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[:"blue"]Ignoramus? Hmmmm. [/]

Quote:

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Here's the NASB:

11 For there is no partiality with God.

How so?

12 For all who have

sinned without the Law

will also perish without the Law;

---

[:"blue"]If God is impartial as your quotation says, that those who sin without the law and those who sin under the law will both alike perish, then what makes you think that God is partial to you by thinking you can continue to sin & live in sin and escape the judgment of God? You claim you are not under law, but your own quote says that if you sin without the law, you will still perish just like the one who sins under the law because God is impartial! [/]

Quote:

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Those who didn't have the written knowledge of the law were the Gentiles. Yet it makes no difference, they must perish without law. After all the law demands obedience, not this partial obedience that you render Gerry!

---

[:"blue"]If the ignorant Gentile sinner will likewise perish, what do you think will happen to someone who knows it's wrong to bow to idols, wrong to murder, steal, fornicate, etc. etc. yet do it anyway? Not only is God's name blasphemed (Rom 2:24), but is also "worthy of death", 1:32, 2:8. [/]

Quote:

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and all who have sinned

under the Law

will

be judged by the Law

;

Sinning while "under law" means judgement! Why?

Verse 13 for not the hearers of the Law are just before God,

but the doers of the Law will be justified.

---

[:"blue"]Did you forget your own quote that if you sin without the law, you will still perish? [/]

Quote:

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Paul isn't preaching legalism, that would contradict Romans 3:28 -- "For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law." Paul is merely stressing a truth. And that truth is to be under law is to be under condemnation. Why?

---

[:"blue"]You just got through quoting a passage that says that if you sin apart from or with the law, that you are still under condemnation.

You are trying to make Paul talk from both sides of his mouth, just like you do with John. At the very beginning of his letter to the Romans, Paul put forth his thesis that we receive grace in order to bring about obedience that springs from & inspired by faith, Rom 1:5. That is the kind of faith that Paul is using as an example in Rom 4. "Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness," even before he did anything good. God saw what kind of faith he had, that he had the kind of faith that inspires obedience. His obedience to be circumcised was not the basis for his being pronounced as righteous, his obedience to be circumcised was the seal, the evidence of the righteousness that he already received by faith.

But if one claims to have faith but it does not lead to obedience, James says, such faith is DEAD!!! That is why Paul can say without talking from both sides of his mouth, "by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight," Rom 3:20, and still say, "for not the hearers of the Law are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified," Rom 2:13 NASB, because he is talking about a faith that leads to doing.

And in case anyone misunderstands what he is saying by claiming that because we are justfied by grace through faith apart from law-keeping, he asks a retorical question, "Do we then nullify the Law through faith?" His answer is a thunderous, "May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law." Rom 3:31 NASB. Faith does not make the law of none effect; faith places law on even firmer foundation!

Quote:

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Rom 3:9 What then? Are we [Jews] better than they [Genitles, spiritually]? Not at all; for we have already charged

that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin

; 10 as it is written,“There is none righteous, not even one."

Rob

---

[:"blue"]And once a sinner comes to Christ and receives by faith righteousness and begins to practice righteousness, is he still considered unrighteous? [/]

Gerry

[Gerr]

Please produce the post in which anyone has claimed to be sinless?

Gerry

[Gerr]

Quote:

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He then says, 17 “And their sins and their lawless deeds

I will remember no more.”

Please note sinning after conversion is no longer remembered by God? Why? He sees us spotless in Jesus.

---

[:"blue"]Sinning after conversion is no longer remembered by????????

[:"red"] "Dear friends, if we deliberately continue sinningAFTER we have received a full knowledge of the truth, there is no other sacrifice that will cover these sins. There will be nothing to look forward to but the terrible expectation of God's judgment and the raging fire that will consume his enemies. Anyone who refused to obey the law of Moses was put to death without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. Think how much more terrible the punishment will be for those who have trampled on the Son of God and have treated the blood of the covenant as if it were common and unholy. Such people have insulted and enraged the Holy Spirit who brings God's mercy to his people." Heb 10:26-29 NLT

"For if we sin willfully AFTER we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. ...." NKJ [/] [/]

Quote:

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Now look at Paul:

Rom 7:22 For in my inner being [heart/mind]

I delight in God’s law

; 23

but

I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members.

The mind wants to do God's will, but the flesh wants you to go after it's desires. The flesh has one advantage that your heart doesn't. It deceives...it lies...it is crafty. And many times we fall to its devices. That's not obedience that’s partial obedience.

---

[:"blue"]Like I've said before, the Christ you preached that died 2000 yrs ago never came out of the tomb, therefore the flesh is stronger than your dead powerless Christ. But thanks be to God. The fact is, we "are children of God....and have overcome them, because He who is in you is greater than we who is in the world." 1 Jn 4:4 [/]

Gerry

[archierieus]

Well, we seem to be narrowing down this whole issue. Let's get to the bottom-line. The Bible tells us in Rev. 13, that a powerful nation will compel the worship of the beast, and will compel all to receive the mark of the beast's authority, on pain of death. We know from Bible prophecy that this beast power is the Roman Catholic church. We also know from both the Bible and history, that the mark of the beast's authority is Sunday sacredness. For example: "Sunday is our mark of authority. The Church is above the Bible, and this transferance of Sabbath observance is proof of that fact." (Catholic Record)

In that time of crisis, each person will have to make a decision: to receive the mark and either buy into [forehead] or go along with [hand] Sunday sacredness; or, to refuse to receive the mark and keep the seventh-day Sabbath.

Now, then, Herr Robert: Is it your position that, in that day of decision, God will NOT expect us to keep His Sabbath, and will save us in His kingdom EVEN IF we receive the mark? (After all, a person has got to live, he's got to eat, gotta have the basics met. Surely, God will understand, won't He? Besides, it's not our strict compliance with the letter of the Law that matters to God. We are not under Law, but under grace! We are perfect in Christ, complete in Him, and we do not like to sin, even if we actually do sin and receive the mark. But, hey, we're perfect IN CHRIST anyway! Right?) Regardless of ANY and ALL other issues, what about this one? What do you say?