I'm A Good Man--most of the time!

[Ron Lambert]

Gerry, since few of us commit such overt sins as stealing and worshipping idols, let's change it to something much more likely to be seen in our experience.

Suppose a man was having a bad day and lost his temper and berated his wife and children unfairly, and sinfully. Then suppose he immediately rushes out of his house, and gets hit by a passing truck and killed. Is he necessarily lost?

I say no. God knows he would have repented eventually if he had been given time. And if the general tendency of his life was to draw ever closer to Christ, then the righteousness of Christ would continue to cover him. It would be a terrible theology to suppose that the instant we sin we are lost, and we'd better hurry up and repent right away before we get killed by a truck.

Ellen G. White addressed this very point when she said: "The character is revealed by the works, not by occasional good deeds and occasional misdeeds, but by the tendency of the habitual words and acts." (Signs of the Times, March 27, 1884 par. 12; also in Steps to Christ, p. 57, par.2)

[Gerr]

Ron, I could not agree with you more. I don't believe that unintentional sins, sinful responses on our part that bypass the will, i.e. automatic/autonomic/conditioned responses will not/would not make us lose our salvation. I have said this a number of times in other threads. Our God is gracious. What I am talking about is the willful/intentional/deliberate sin which Robert thinks a believer can continue to do even after conversion and still remain assured of salvation.

Probation is closing for thousands of people everyday when they die, so we don't necessarily have to look forward to that day when it closes for the whole planet. There are CEOs who claim to be Christians who have knowingly bilked investors. There are preachers who privately are deep into sex & pornography, so it is part of the human experience. While most Christians are not guilty of intentional/deliberate sins, there are those who do so while claiming assurance of salvation.

Gerry

[Parade Orange]

You wonderful folks do understand the point of the first post, dont cha?

Perhaps the poster noticed how SDA and other christians look over each others shoulders and keep mental notes on each other whether they are or not going to heaven.

They call it discernment.

The poster made sure he or she named external things(for the most part).

I notice they somehow see motives also. They call it discernment.

I see it here all the time.

On the thread called CHEESE. Someone actually said that Shane is blaming his wife for reasons why he eats cheese.And shame on Shane for blaming his wife and she cant defend herself. By Shane simply stating a fact ,most couples do understand(hopefully), picking one's battles- especially when it comes to the kitchen(whom the wife may dominate) it was immediatly 'discerned(?)' That he really, really wants to eat cheese and gets to blame his poor wife.

I say so what!

The discerners here may find out that I eat black pepper and blame me! and not my Blue Nose Baboon named Barbie.

I hope I made my point.

God bless

Gay4JESUS

[benherndon]

Gerry wrote:

"Then let's say that if probation were to close today, this moment as I write this, would a believer who has continued to fornicate, steal, covet, & worship idols up to this moment, still remain having the assurance of salvation?"

>>>Is that person a believer? Is that the person Jesus is speaking about when He says, those who 'believe'in Him have already come into judgment? Is that the definition of any believer? That person has already shown himself to just not care!! Not caring is not 'believing'

"For God so loved the world that......whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life...."??? Does the person Gerry mentions 'believe'? I don't think so. What one says and What one does belies what he says if he's living that kind of life 'constantly'----'those who practice sin..."....etc. I don't care who says they love me...it means nothing if they don't act like it and do everything that hurts me. Those are detestable sins as mentioned as being "detestable" throughout the NT as well as the OT and categorically are referred to in Rev 21:8 right along with 'unbelieving', too!

Now let's get it down to real practical actions from the heart and mind.......for example, does anybody here think they are observing the 4th commandment, the prime teaching of us SDAs? Define what observing the 4th commandment means OTHER than what is written about it in the Pentateuch? When did God say we didn't have to observe the Sabbath like is taught about it in the Old Testament?? Take a minute to read Jer 17.....take a another minute to read Neh 9 and a few other comments about how to observe the Sabbath in OT times? Show me how the NT says to observe the Sabbath somebody....anybody...give me just one text from the NT about HOW? to observe the Sabbath other than what is in the OT?

Everybody, no exception, every socalled and self proclaimed Sabbath-"keeper" breaks the 4th commandment and its OT instructions...without fail...I can see it!!!I'm not the sharpest tack in the box, but I can see it....and I've lived it!!! [please spare me the charge of 'legalism' about keeping the Sabbath....its pure poppycock!! either obey it just like the OT says or...you've broken it!! And if one says he keeps it, I'm sorry, but I just do not believe he is having intellectual honesty or integrity, which?...is debateable]

Hey I've been gone for over a week but I've been watching what is said here and its depressing as Hades to me.....who would want to join this organization if they knew what was going on here?

And....we call ourselves Christians??

I am reminded and condemned by 1 Tim 1 where it says those who teach the 'law' "do not know what they are talking about

OR what they so confidently affirm"--now read what follows.

BINGO!!!!

Ben

[Nicodema]

Quote:

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Ron Lambert said:

If I seem to be dancing around the question of just what our experience will be after probation closes, it is because I am hesitant to be too definite about it. I know that those who receive the special, end-time seal of God (the "144,000")

must have a special experience.

---

We are not left in the dark concerning the nature of this experience, however. Scripture clearly indicates that this "144,000" sing the Song of Moses and of the Lamb, and that they are the only ones able to learn this song. Perhaps if we understood what this meant, we might have insight into what shall be their particular experience, and exactly what it looks like to have "the character of Christ fully reproduced in His people."

We are living in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he is about to sound. It's time for the mystery of God to be finished. Gaining this understanding finishes it intellectually. Obtaining the experience pointed at by this understanding will, I postulate, finish it experientially. But many will not wish to even so much as gain the understanding itself. We are too fixated upon what we mistakenly perceive as immutably fixed, predetermined outcomes. We have not read the sign of Jonah nor learned of his experience -- the JOY of his experience which even HE missed! We have not loved our enemies nor even been willing to explore the ramifications thereof theologically and eschatalogically. We are still treading the wilderness path round and round, hashing and debating dogmas and laws instead of entering the realm of glorious possibilities through the open door of Jesus Christ's triumph. We clamor first for the destruction -- whether temporal or eternal -- of any and all who oppose, vex, or annoy us and then seek soteriological justification for retention of these by-products of a selfish, carnal heart.

All have not yet heard the voice of the seven thunders, which I believe must be unsealed before we can BE sealed -- or more to the point, will be unsealed to those who shall be sealed. The mystery of God remains incomplete, unfinished for us. And so, here we still are. But a mighty angel has lifted his hand and sworn that there should be delay no longer.

Prepare ye the way of the Lord. Remove the obstacles and stumbling stones; make straight His pathways. Seek for wisdom with all thine heart and with all thy getting, get understanding. He is near, even at the door.

[Gerr]

Quote:

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benherndon said:

Gerry wrote:

"Then let's say that if probation were to close today, this moment as I write this, would a believer who has continued to fornicate, steal, covet, & worship idols up to this moment, still remain having the assurance of salvation?"

>>>Is that person a believer? Is that the person Jesus is speaking about when He says, those who 'believe'in Him have already come into judgment? Is that the definition of any believer? That person has already shown himself to just not care!! Not caring is not 'believing'

"For God so loved the world that......whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life...."??? Does the person Gerry mentions 'believe'? I don't think so. What one says and What one does belies what he says if he's living that kind of life 'constantly'----'those who practice sin..."....etc. I don't care who says they love me...it means nothing if they don't act like it and do everything that hurts me. Those are detestable sins as mentioned as being "detestable" throughout the NT as well as the OT and categorically are referred to in Rev 21:8 right along with 'unbelieving', too!

---

[:"blue"]Ben, thank you. That is exactly my point. One cannot say they believe and still continue to live like they did before they believed. But apparently Robert thinks that one can. He keeps repeating his mantra that showing your love to God by obeying Him is legalism! Sorry for repeating my question, but I wanted a crystal clear answer to remove all doubt and misunderstanding in my mind where he stands, which so far he has ignored. [/]

Gerry

[Nicodema]

Quote:

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Gerry Cabalo said:

[:"blue"]

I would like a crystal clear answer to the question:

Does a believer who continues to fornicate, steal, covet, worship idols, etc. etc., remain assured of salvation?

[/]

---

Jeremiah 7:2-13

2 "Stand at the gate of the LORD's house and there proclaim this message:

" 'Hear the word of the LORD, all you people of Judah who come through these gates to worship the LORD. 3 This is what the LORD Almighty, the God of Israel, says: Reform your ways and your actions, and I will let you live in this place. 4 Do not trust in deceptive words and say, "This is the temple of the LORD, the temple of the LORD, the temple of the LORD!" 5 If you really change your ways and your actions and deal with each other justly, 6 if you do not oppress the alien, the fatherless or the widow and do not shed innocent blood in this place, and if you do not follow other gods to your own harm, 7 then I will let you live in this place, in the land I gave your forefathers for ever and ever. 8 But look, you are trusting in deceptive words that are worthless.

9 " 'Will you steal and murder, commit adultery and perjury, burn incense to Baal and follow other gods you have not known, 10 and [:"red"]then come and stand before me in this house, which bears my Name, and say, "We are safe"-safe to do all these detestable things?[/] 11 Has this house, which bears my Name, become a den of robbers to you? But I have been watching! declares the LORD.

12 " 'Go now to the place in Shiloh where I first made a dwelling for my Name, and see what I did to it because of the wickedness of my people Israel. 13 While you were doing all these things, declares the LORD, I spoke to you again and again, but you did not listen; I called you, but you did not answer.

[Gerr]

Thank you, Nico, for that passage in Jeremiah. I had forgotten all about it.

Now, if only Robert would give a crystal clear answer so that this ignorant man, me, can clearly understand.

Gerry

[Gerr]

Quote:

---

Now let's get it down to real practical actions from the heart and mind.......for example, does anybody here think they are observing the 4th commandment, the prime teaching of us SDAs? Define what observing the 4th commandment means OTHER than what is written about it in the Pentateuch? When did God say we didn't have to observe the Sabbath like is taught about it in the Old Testament?? Take a minute to read Jer 17.....take a another minute to read Neh 9 and a few other comments about how to observe the Sabbath in OT times? Show me how the NT says to observe the Sabbath somebody....anybody...give me just one text from the NT about HOW? to observe the Sabbath other than what is in the OT?

---

[:"blue"]Ben, would you agree that God's revelation is progressive? That more light is shed in the NT? That in the face of Jesus is the clearest revelation of the face of God? If these are true, then I submit to you that the truest way to keep the Sabbath is best exemplified in the way Jesus kept it, the One who gave the command to keep it.

1. Satisfying one's hunger is consistent with true Sabbath-keeping.

2. Working in God's temple for worship purposes was pronounced by Jesus as not in violation of His command to keep the Sabbath holy.

3. Rescueing a sheep that has fallen in a pit is in keeping with the spirit of true Sabbath keeping.

See Matthew 12, Lk 6, Mk 2:23-3:6

Now, take the principles that could be derived from these three and apply them in interpreting what Ex 20:8-11 really mean. [/]

Gerry

[Robert]

Quote:

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Gerry Cabalo said:

Now, if only Robert would give a crystal clear answer so that this ignorant man, me, can clearly understand.

Gerry

---

The law doesn't give out credit. So just because you don't do the things listed doesn't guarantee heaven.

[Stan]

am thinking... if you watched the video, you missed the main theme or forgot it...

[Nicodema]

Oh the video! Now would be a good time for that ... now let's see ... what thread was it on again?

Ah... here it is. http://homepage.mac.com/stanjensen/iMovieTheater15.html

Downloading now ... thanks for the nudge! I'd meant to view this but hadn't gotten around to it yet.

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Hi Stan,

I see you are no longer sporting a beard. When Denise saw it she said, who is that? Not only did she not recognize you but she thought that you were black! lol, Yo bro was up?

Norman

[Robert]

Quote:

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...the Sabbath is best exemplified in the way Jesus kept it, the One who gave the command to keep it.

---

And the best way to follow in Christ's path of self-denial is to live solely for others even to the point of homelessness, but I don't see you doing that!

You see you insist that Ben follow what you deem important yet you will not follow Christ in His self-denial. I think the word used for such a person is hypocrite!

As to the Sabbath...remember that the 1st set of tablets were destroyed. Here's what the 2nd set stated:

Deut 5:12 “‘Observe the sabbath day, to keep it holy, as the Lord your God commanded you.

How do yo keep it holy?

13 Six days you shall labor, and do all your work; 14 but the seventh day is a sabbath to the Lord your God;

Why no work?

15 You shall remember that you were a servant in the land of Egypt, and the Lord your God brought you out thence with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm; therefore the Lord your God commanded you to keep the sabbath day.

To the JEW in bondage in Egypt the Sabbath was a sign that God did the work and they simply rested. All they could do is respond to their freedom from Pharaoh. It was a sign from Egyptian bondage not by their "work" - but rather by God's mighty hand. Hence by resting from their normal labors they were through this sign acknowledging that God does the work and that all they did was to simply rest in that work. It was a sign of faith to the Jew.

Last time that I checked I was a Gentile....

Rob

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Hi Nico,

Quote:

---

Jeremiah 7:2-13

2 "Stand at the gate of the LORD's house and there proclaim this message: .....

---

That's why Paul could write this in the NT:

1Co 6:9 "Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God."

If we continue to read Paul basically tells us that if we do those things it's like we are joined to a harlot. But there's good news:

1Co 6:17 "But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit." or " But he who joins himself to the Lord becomes spiritually one with him." GNB

Norman

[Robert]

Quote:

---

Norman said:

1 Co 6:9

---

If you look at the context they were cheating:

7....Why not rather be cheated? 8 Instead, you yourselves cheat and do wrong and you do this to your brothers.

Then why did Paul say, "you ARE washed" when in fact they were doing wrong? Ah, "in Christ" they have been cleansed from sin. In Christ we are "righteous"...it is the "unrighteous" that will not make it....Face it we are all sinners...hence we are "unrighteous". Only "in Christ" can we be called righteous.

[Robert]

Quote:

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Robert said:

Instead,

you yourselves

cheat and do wrong and you do this to your brothers.

---

Please note that Paul is talking to the church at Corinth. He's talking to the congregation...to the people.

So when He says, "And that is what some of you were" he was speaking of what they were without Christ! Believers are still sinners...still coming up short even though they are growing. So again Paul is really talking about the unbeliever who is still under law and outside grace.

[Nicodema]

Quote:

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Nicodema said:

Downloading now ... I'd meant to view this but hadn't gotten around to it yet.

---

Well it's been an hour and this thing is STILL downloading ... ... am I ever going to get to SEE it??? How do I know it hasn't stalled somewhere???

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Hi Rob.

Quote:

---

If you look at the context they were cheating:

---

Cheating is unrighteousness. Paul was talking to some who were babes in Christ who did not yet know what their potential was in Christ. 1Co 3:2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able. 3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

Quote:

---

Then why did Paul say, "you ARE washed" when in fact they were doing wrong?

---

Because not all were doing wrong.

1Co 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

By name (character or authority - given to us apart from the law) and the Holy Spirit, (worked out in us by the Holy Spirit) That means imputed and experiential.

Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Who are the unrighteous? You can, if you want, consider yourself unrighteous, but the word of God calls me a righteous saint! That I can live with.

It's like going to AA and folks still call themselves alcoholics after years of not drinking. When I used to attend these meeting I'd always say I am a recovering alcoholic. What you say will be strengthen in your subconscience and will guide you. Try it some time walk around for a day and tell yourself that you are stupid and watch your confidence go down. That is why we are given the good news first and not told to "Do better." Love begets love, mercy begets mercy and good works strenghten our convictions. Not doing good works (living an unrighteous life) weakens us spiritually, mentally and physically, therefore God gives us the Holy Sirit so we can do the works.

A continual life of unrighteousness leaves one a mental weakling, a spiritual dead head and physical wreak who will not inherit God.

Norman

[Gerr]

Robert, this is what you said:

[:"red"] "Please note sinning after conversion is no longer remembered by God. Why? He sees us spotless in Jesus."[/]

I whole-heartedly agree that not fornicating, not stealing, nor coveting, not worshiping idols will NOT get me into heaven. [:"blue"]But the question that you keep dodging is this:

[:"red"] Do you mean by what you said above that a believer can continue to fornicate, steal, covet and worship idols and still remain assured of salvation because those sins are no longer remembered by God? [/]

[:"blue"] Remember, I'm ignorant, so a simple "yes" or "no" would make it crystal clear to me where you stand on this issue. [/]

Gerry

[Gerr]

Quote:

---

Robert said:

Quote:

---

Norman said:

1 Co 6:9

---

If you look at the context they were cheating:

7....Why not rather be cheated? 8 Instead, you yourselves cheat and do wrong and you do this to your brothers.

Then why did Paul say, "you ARE washed" when in fact they were doing wrong? Ah, "in Christ" they have been cleansed from sin. In Christ we are "righteous"...it is the "unrighteous" that will not make it....Face it we are all sinners...hence we are "unrighteous". Only "in Christ" can we be called righteous.

---

[:"blue"] Does a believer who continue to fornicate, steal, covet, worship idols, etc. etc. remain righteous in Christ and therefore assured of salvation? [/]

Gerry

[Gerr]

Quote:

---

Robert said:

Quote:

---

Robert said:

Instead,

you yourselves

cheat and do wrong and you do this to your brothers.

---

Please note that Paul is talking to the church at Corinth. He's talking to the congregation...to the people.

So when He says, "And that is what some of you were" he was speaking of what they were without Christ! Believers are still sinners...still coming up short even though they are growing. So again Paul is really talking about the unbeliever who is still under law and outside grace.

---

[:"blue"] Can a believer who used to make a living by stealing be growing if does not stop stealing but keeps on doing it? [/]

Gerry

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Rob,

Quote:

---

And the best way to follow in Christ's path of self-denial is to live solely for others even to the point of homelessness, but I don't see you doing that!

---

Not so, He is the head and we are the body, we all have different ministries and calling, (different members or body parts) in these we are to deny ourselves. If you are called to reach the rich being homeless will not permit you to be a Roman when in Rome.

Quote:

---

As to the Sabbath...remember that the 1st set of tablets were destroyed. Here's what the 2nd set stated:

Deut 5:12 “‘Observe the sabbath day, to keep it holy, as the Lord your God commanded you.

How do yo keep it holy?

13 Six days you shall labor, and do all your work; 14 but the seventh day is a sabbath to the Lord your God;

Why no work?

15 You shall remember that you were a servant in the land of Egypt, and the Lord your God brought you out thence with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm; therefore the Lord your God commanded you to keep the sabbath day.

---

Rob the commandments in Deut were spoken by Moses. He was repeating what had taken place.

Deut 5:1 And Moses called all Israel, and said unto them, Hear, O Israel, the statutes and judgments which I speak in your ears this day, that ye may learn them, and keep, and do them. 2 The LORD our God made a covenant with us in Horeb. 3 The LORD made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, even us, who are all of us here alive this day. 4 The LORD talked with you face to face in the mount out of the midst of the fire, 5 (I stood between the LORD and you at that time, to show you the word of the LORD: for ye were afraid by reason of the fire, and went not up into the mount;) saying ,

Verse 15 is Moses comment not what God spoke. God wrote the exact same thing on the second tablets as on the first. God does not change.

Deu 5:15 And remember that thou wast a servant in the land of Egypt, and that the LORD thy God brought thee out thence through a mighty hand and by a stretched out arm: therefore the LORD thy God commanded thee to keep the sabbath day.

Quote:

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Last time that I checked I was a Gentile....

---

You forgot unrighteous, you are an unrighteous Gentile, According to you that is.

God's children are (in Christ) righteous spiritual Jews who keep the Sabbath of God because we love Him and want to be with Him. It is a sign to us to know that He is our Creator, Redeemer and our God.

The day will come when those who do not love God will be yelling and persecuting God's children telling them they are wrong. During that time it will be clear to us that the keeping of the Sabbath is a sign from God to us that let's us know we are right, we are worshipping the true God even though all around us and our senses tell us otherwise.

Norman

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

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Ron Lambert said:

Our faith and works have value only because we are in Christ

---

Our works are described thus:

[:"red"] "For...all our righteousness (our best deeds of rightness and justice) is like filthy rags or a polluted garment...." [/] Isaiah 64:6 AMP

His works in us at this present time are the essential element for spiritual progress and eventual entrance into the kingdom of heaven.

[:"red"] "For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure." [/] Phil 2:13 KJV

One might argue that sanctification (our works) will not suffice, but that it is justification (His works) that are necessary. I would suggest they are both necessary and they both are wrought in Him, with only our submission to His will, the "work" to be accomplished by us. And even that is of His doing. For;

[:"red"] "When we were utterly helpless, Christ came at just the right time and died for us sinners." [/]

Romans 5:6 NLT

[:"red"] "But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption,

so that, just as it is written, "LET HIM WHO BOASTS, BOAST IN THE LORD." [/] 1 Cor 1:30,31

[:"red"] "Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you." [/] James 4:7 KJV

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

---

Gerry Cabalo said:

[:"blue"]Then let's say that if probation were to close today, this moment as I write this,

would a believer who has continued to fornicate, steal, covet, & worship idols up to this moment,

still remain having the assurance of salvation? [/]

Gerry

---

Gerry,

the question presents an oxymoron. The answer is that the "believer" would not be doing that, therefor there is no question about his proper behavior as he is controlled by the Holy Spirit, to Whom he has freely offered himelf.

[:"red"] "Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you." [/] James 4:7 KJV