I'm A Good Man--most of the time!

[Robert]

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Gerry Cabalo said:

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"For if we sin willfully

AFTER

we have received the knowledge of the truth

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Read the context. This is talking about unbelief! Read it...be honest.

[Robert]

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archierieus said:

Is it your position that, in that day of decision, God will NOT expect us to keep His Sabbath, and will save us in His kingdom EVEN IF we receive the mark?

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Now you've sidetracked us to the Sabbath. Here we go...

Did you know that the Judaizers insisted that the Gentiles keep a sign also? It was demanded, as was the Sabbath, in the book of the law. Here's the command:

Lev 12:1 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, 2 Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If a woman have conceived seed, and born a man child: then she shall be unclean seven days; according to the days of the separation for her infirmity shall she be unclean. 3 And in the eighth day the flesh of his foreskin shall be circumcised

Let's talk about this....

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Hi to everyone, I posted this on my blog this morning but thought I'd share it here too because it was such a blessing.

The Signs of the Times, March 8, 1910

The life of the Christian is hid with Christ in God; and God acknowledges those who are His, declaring, “Ye are My witnesses.” They testify that divine power is influencing their hearts and shaping their conduct. Their works give evidence that the Spirit is moving upon the inward man, so that those who are associated with them are convinced that they are making Christ their pattern. Those who truly love God have the internal evidence that they are beloved of God. They have communion with Christ, and their hearts are warmed with fervent love toward Him. God claims them for Himself, and will impart to them special favors, enabling them to be complete in Christ, more than conquerors through Him who has loved them.

The highlighted part is encouraging to me and I hope it blesses you as well. Have a great day.

Norman

[Gerr]

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Robert said:

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Gerry Cabalo said:

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"For if we sin willfully

AFTER

we have received the knowledge of the truth

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Read the context. This is talking about unbelief! Read it...be honest.

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[:"blue"]And how do you know, how can anyone know when one claims to believe or not believe?

[:"red"]"And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey? So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief. Heb 3:19 NKJ. [/]

IOW, believing people obey; unbelieving people disobey!

[:"red"]"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?' And then I will declare to them; I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!" Mt 7:21-23 NKJ.

"Get away from me, you who do evil. I never knew you." NCV [/]

[/]

[:"blue"]Mark this well, Robert, because it is not the sin of people who claim to have faith that He forgets, rather it is the sin of people who claimed to have faith in Him but sinned anyway that He remembers! [/]

[:"blue"]You are building your house on sand, my friend, when you claim to hear the Master's voice but do not act on it. [/]

Gerry

[Gerr]

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He then says, 17 “And their sins and their lawless deeds

I will remember no more.”

Please note sinning after conversion is no longer remembered by God? Why? He sees us spotless in Jesus.

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[:"blue"] This has to be the mother of all heresies!!!

Mark well in whom this promise is made. The one whose sins are forgotten are those in whose hearts & minds the law of God is written! Heb 8:10, 10:16. Talk about context! In whose hearts & minds the law is upheld, not trampled on! Rom 3:31. [/]

God does not remember "sinning after conversion?"

To the church of Ephesus:

[:"red"]"I know your works....you have left your first love. Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repend and do the first works, OR ELSE I will come to you quickly and remove your lampstand...unless you repent." Rev 2:1-6 NKJ.[/]

To the church in Pergamos: [:"red"]

"I know your works......but I have a few things against you, because you have there those who hold the doctrine of Balaam..........Repent, OR ELSE I will come to you..." Rev 2:12-16 [/]

To the church in Laodicea:

[:"red"]"I know your works, that you are neither cold nor hot......because you are lukewarm........I will vomit you out of My mouth." 3:14ff. [/]

[:"blue"] [:"red"]"I know the blasphemy of those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan." Rev 2:9 NKJ [/] [/]

Gerry

[Ron Lambert]

Gerry, you asked me: "do you hold the same opinion like Robert that one can continue to willlfully/intentionally/deliberately live in sin and still enjoy the assurance of salvation?"

I will not presume to answer for Robert, though I doubt that is what he means.

Let me rephrase your question: Do I think I can "continue to willlfully/intentionally/deliberately" doubt and distrust and be disloyal to God? I think that God has miraculously given us through His Spirit the ability to repent and be converted. That conversion experience is one that must continue and deepen, until it reaches every aspect of our heart and life. But why would I even want to be saved if I doubted and distrusted and were disloyal to God? By declaring myself to be on God's side, and by showing by my actions that I mean it, I have reversed the rebellion of sin.

This fear you keep emphasizing that you have that if we take salvation by faith by the imputed righteousness of Christ too literally we are abandoning the Law of God and committing the most terrible heresy of all, sounds to me very much like the kind of spirit I see manifested in those who opposed the preaching of Jones and Waggoner in 1888--they used exactly the same arguments against them, denounced them in exactly the same ways, and similarly accused them of heresy. It is funny how the gospel seems to provoke that kind of response in so many people. I think it is because the Old Man likes to take comfort in playing religious, and hates being exposed as a fraud--and the true gospel does that.

[archierieus]

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Robert said:

He then says, 17 “And their sins and their lawless deeds

I will remember no more.”

Please note sinning after conversion is no longer remembered by God? Why? He sees us spotless in Jesus.

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Ahh, at last, we get down to some core issues. [Aside, to LifeHisCost: THIS is why I persisted in seeking a response. Now, the real issues begin to surface.]

This quoted statement, "sinning after conversion is no longer remembered by God . . ." is clearly, blatantly, unequivocally, false doctrine. It is directly contrary to the plain teachings of the Word of God. Any system of belief grounded on such faulty premises, has fatal weaknesses. Now, I see the real picture, the tendency of this teaching.

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Now you've sidetracked us to the Sabbath.

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Actually, God is the One who created, blessed and sanctified the Sabbath, and commands people to keep it. It is the mark of His authority as Creator and Lawgiver. Satan has defied God's authority as Lawgiver, and seeks to entice people into breaking God's Law. In the final conflict, the lines will be clearly drawn. On one side, all the powers of earth will be arrayed in support of Satan's rebellion and defiance against God, acknowledging the mark of Satan's authority, the counterfeit sabbath. On the other side will be the tiny group who have remained faithful to God, even at the loss of everything they have. Revelation describes them thusly: "Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and have the faith of Jesus." (Rev. 14:12) In that day, the choice will be stark. Not a time for fanciful theories. If we want to eat, to have a roof over our heads, if we want to drive a car, if we want to take care of our families, then we will accept the mark of the beast in order to survive. If we choose to stay faithful to God, then we WILL lose everything we have, (although God's angels will take care of us) and we will keep God's Sabbath, no matter what is thrown at us.

Are we, today, preparing to stand in that day of final testing?

Regards, Dave

[Gerr]

Ron, let me be more specific. Since faith/trust/loyalty is seen in what it does, let me ask you. Can you deliberately continue to worship idols, steal, fornicate, murder, etc. etc. and still have the assurance of salvation?

I have no fear whatsoever in exulting the righteousness of Christ, that our hope of salvation is in His righteousness alone. That Good News is the power of God for salvation, to save people from their sins and not in their sins. Sin has caused incomprehensible misery on people and also incomprehensible pain in the heart of God. How then can we continue in it?

Gerry

[Gerr]

P.S.

Do you believe that after a person is converted, any sin committed thereafter, be it deliberate or not is no longer remembered by God?

Gerry

[Ron Lambert]

Gerry, I am sure you recall the passage about the New Covenant in Hebrews 8, and particularly verse 12: "For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more."

This does not say just past sins will be forgotten, it implies all their sins and iniquities, since the statement is unqualified. However, it also says that God WILL forget. The time when God forgets our sins and iniquities is in the judgment, as part of the cleansing of the sanctuary. I think this must mean there will be a change in the experience of the people of God during the judgment, especially when the Latter Rain is poured out.

As I indicated before, I would think in terms of Christ perfecting the faith of His people. It certainly does not mean their nature will be changed. God wants to demonstrate that sin and righteousness are not a matter of nature, but a matter of faith and choice. This is why He leaves us with the sinful nature until the Second Advent, to show that the sinful nature is not an excuse. The just CAN live by faith.

But does this mean we will never get angry or say intemperate things? Does this mean that when the enemy is martyring innocent people for not submitting to their tyrannical rule, we will not react with fury and feel in us a desire to pay them back, maybe even take up arms and shoot back? Undoubtedly some less mature in the faith actually will do this, though such efforts at retaliation will be in vain, and it is best left to God to avenge His martyrs.

We will be making errors in judgment about what is right and what is wrong clear up to the end, because at no time does God make us all-wise. We still have to struggle to learn wisdom, even by the means of falling and having things blow up in our face. We often have to learn things the hard way, and that will not change until the Second Advent. But we can become much more thoroughly converted than most of us are now.

[archierieus]

Ron, your latest does raise questions in my mind. Let me ask you directly. Are you saying that if a converted Christian yields to temptation and commits a sin--let's say, shoplifts--that s/he does NOT need to confess that sin to God, repent of it and make it right? Please, when you respond, do confirm or deny. A definite, direct answer would be very helpful.

Dave

[Clio]

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Ron Lambert said:

But does this mean we will never get angry or say intemperate things? Does this mean that when the enemy is martyring innocent people for not submitting to their tyrannical rule, we will not react with fury and feel in us a desire to pay them back, maybe even take up arms and shoot back? Undoubtedly some less mature in the faith actually will do this, though such efforts at retaliation will be in vain, and it is best left to God to avenge His martyrs.

We will be making errors in judgment about what is right and what is wrong clear up to the end, because at no time does God make us all-wise. We still have to struggle to learn wisdom, even by the means of falling and having things blow up in our face. We often have to learn things the hard way, and that will not change until the Second Advent. But we can become much more thoroughly converted than most of us are now.

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What an impotent god you serve. I'm glad he's not related to Abba in any way.

[Gerr]

Ron, you're dancing around my questions.

Does a believer who deliberately go out and start fornicating, stealing, idol-worshiping, etc. remain saved while doing those things?

IOW is God oblivious to ongoing evil deeds in the life of the believer?

Gerry

[Robert]

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archierieus said:

Actually, God is the One who created, blessed and sanctified the Sabbath, and commands people to keep it. It is the mark of His authority as Creator and Lawgiver.

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This is baloney! This is nothing but legalistic junk.... It’s a scare tactic and completely and utterly the very opposite what the NT teaches.

[Robert]

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Gerry Cabalo said:

Does a believer who deliberately go out and start fornicating, stealing, idol-worshiping, etc. remain saved while doing those things?

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Does a believer who is living selfishly, i.e., is self-seeking remain saved?

What is love?

"Love [Greek: Agape] is the fulfillment of the law." [Romans 13:5]

"Love...is not self-seeking" [1 Cor 13:5]

Hence, "Not self-seeking is the fulfillment of the law."

Who have you been living for Gerry? You are sinning! No heaven for you!

[archierieus]

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Robert said:

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archierieus said:

Actually, God is the One who created, blessed and sanctified the Sabbath, and commands people to keep it. It is the mark of His authority as Creator and Lawgiver.

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This is baloney! This is nothing but legalistic junk.... It’s a scare tactic and completely and utterly the very opposite what the NT teaches.

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Then, I take it that you would describe the following as "legalistic junk":

"18. The Law of God:

The great principles of God's law are embodied in the Ten Commandments and exemplified in the life of Christ. They express God's love, will, and purposes concerning human conduct and relationships and are binding upon all people in every age. These precepts are the basis of God's covenant with His people and the standard in God's judgment. Through the agency of the Holy Spirit they point out sin and awaken a sense of need for a Saviour. Salvation is all of grace and not of works, but its fruitage is obedience to the Commandments. This obedience develops Christian character and results in a sense of well being. It is an evidence of our love for the Lord and our concern for our fellow men. The obedience of faith demonstrates the power of Christ to transform lives, and therefore strengthens Christian witness. (Ex. 20:1 17; Ps. 40:7, 8; Matt. 22:36 40; Deut. 28:1 14; Matt. 5:17 20; Heb. 8:8 10; John 15:7 10; Eph. 2:8 10; 1 John 5:3; Rom. 8:3, 4; Ps. 19:7 14.)

19. The Sabbath:

The beneficent Creator, after the six days of Creation, rested on the seventh day and instituted the Sabbath for all people as a memorial of Creation. The fourth commandment of God's unchangeable law requires the observance of this seventh day Sabbath as the day of rest, worship, and ministry in harmony with the teaching and practice of Jesus, the Lord of the Sabbath. The Sabbath is a day of delightful communion with God and one another. It is a symbol of our redemption in Christ, a sign of our sanctification, a token of our allegiance, and a foretaste of our eternal future in God's kingdom. The Sabbath is God's perpetual sign of His eternal covenant between Him and His people. Joyful observance of this holy time from evening to evening, sunset to sunset, is a celebration of God's creative and redemptive acts. (Gen. 2:1 3; Ex. 20:8 11; Luke 4:16; Isa. 56:5, 6; 58:13, 14; Matt. 12:1 12; Ex. 31:13 17; Eze. 20:12, 20; Deut. 5:12 15; Heb. 4:1 11; Lev. 23:32; Mark 1:32.)

. . . .6. I accept the Ten Commandments as a transcript of the character of God and a revelation of His will. It is my purpose by the power of the indwelling Christ to keep this law, including the fourth commandment, which requires the observance of the seventh day of the week as the Sabbath of the Lord and the memorial of Creation."

Would you also call the above, 'legalistic junk,' Robert?

[Robert]

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archierieus said:

I accept the Ten Commandments as a transcript of the character of God and a revelation of His will. It is my purpose by the power of the indwelling Christ to keep this law, including the fourth commandment,

which requires

the observance of the seventh day of the week as the Sabbath of the Lord and the memorial of Creation."

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Legalistic junk!

Gal 4:4...One covenant is from Mount Sinai and bears children who are to be [:"red"]slaves[/]....5:1 It was for freedom that Christ set us free [context: From under law]; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of [:"red"]slavery[/]. Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised [see Acts 15:1,5], Christ will be of no value to you at all. 3 Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. 4 You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace....

As the Judaizers "required" circumcision and the keeping of the law, so do Adventist "require" Sabbath keeping and the keeping of the Ten Commandments! This is old covenant.

I'll bet you don't even no why you keep the Sabbath. And I'll also bet it is unbiblical.

Rob

[Gerr]

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Robert said:

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Gerry Cabalo said:

Does a believer who deliberately go out and start fornicating, stealing, idol-worshiping, etc. remain saved while doing those things?

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Does a believer who is living selfishly, i.e., is self-seeking remain saved?

What is love?

"Love [Greek: Agape] is the fulfillment of the law." [Romans 13:5]

"Love...is not self-seeking" [1 Cor 13:5]

Hence, "Not self-seeking is the fulfillment of the law."

Who have you been living for Gerry? You are sinning! No heaven for you!

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[:"blue"]Just to make sure I understand your answer, let me repeat the question, Robert. Remember, I am ignorant, so please make your answer crystal clear, and a simple "yes" or "no" will suffice.

Does a believer who fornicates, steals, worships idols, etc. etc. remain assured of his/her salvation while continueing to do these things? [/]

Gerry

[Gerr]

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Robert said:

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archierieus said:

I accept the Ten Commandments as a transcript of the character of God and a revelation of His will. It is my purpose by the power of the indwelling Christ to keep this law, including the fourth commandment,

which requires

the observance of the seventh day of the week as the Sabbath of the Lord and the memorial of Creation."

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Legalistic junk!

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[:"blue"]Soooooooooo, what the LORD God & Moses taught must be "legalistic junk."

[:"red"]Surely I have taught you statutes and judgments, just as the LORD my God commanded me, that you should act according to them in the land which you go to possess. Therefore be careful to observe them; for this is your wisdom and your understanding in the sight of the peoples who will hear all these statutes..." Dt 4:5,6 NKJ [/]

The psalmist of Ps 1 must be a legalist junky for writing this:

[:"red"]Blessed is the man

Who walks not in the counsel of the ungodly,

Nor stands in the path of sinners,

Nor sits in the seat of the scornful;

But his delight is in the law of the LORD,

And in His law he meditates day and night."

[/]

David must be a legalist junky for saying this:

[:"red"]The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul;

The testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple;

The statutes of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart;

The commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes" Ps 19:7,8 NKJ [/]

Isaiah must be a legalist junky for preaching this: [/]

[:"red"]Wash yourselves, make yourselves clean;

Put away the evil of your doings from before My eyes.

Cease to do evil,

Learn to do good;" Isa 1:16,17 NKJ [/]

[:"blue"]I suppose you would also call Ezekiel a legalist for say:

[:"red"]The soul who sins shall die....

When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that the wicked man does, shall he live?.....because of the unfaithfulness of which he is guilty and the sin which he has committed, because of them he shall die." Ez 18:4, 24 NKJ [/]

Jesus Himself must be a legalist junky since this is what He preached.

[:"red"]Not everyone who says to Me, "Lord, Lord," shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.....depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness." Mt 7:21,23 NKJ [/]

And Paul, that great preacher of salvation by grace through faith alone must be a legalist after all. He said:

[:"red"]But fornication and all uncleanness or covetousness, let it not even be named among you as is fitting for saints,....For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. Eph 5:3-6 NKJ. [/]

And John, that great apostle of love, must be a legalist too.

[:"red"]Now by this we know that we know Him if we keep His commandments. He who says, "I know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. [/] 1 Jn 2:3,4 NKJ

Did I miss any other Bible legalist junky? [/]

Gerry

[archierieus]

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Robert said:

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archierieus said:

I accept the Ten Commandments as a transcript of the character of God and a revelation of His will. It is my purpose by the power of the indwelling Christ to keep this law, including the fourth commandment,

which requires

the observance of the seventh day of the week as the Sabbath of the Lord and the memorial of Creation."

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Legalistic junk!

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I see. Well, that settles it. It is clear to me that you and I are not on the same page. I believe in the fundamental Bible teachings of the Seventh-day Adventist church. Apparently, you have studied those teachings, you are familiar with them, but you characterize the preceding excerpts from the statement of fundamental beliefs, as stated in the baptismal certificate, as "legalistic junk."

Under the circumstances, I see no point in further participation in this discussion. I'm outta here.

[Ron Lambert]

Dave and Gerry, of course shoplifting is sin and would need to be repented of. Things like fornication, stealing, worshipping idols (like the image to the beast) are sin. Revelation 14 tells us that those who worship the beast and his image and who receive his mark will be burned up in the lake of fire.

If I seem to be dancing around the question of just what our experience will be after probation closes, it is because I am hesitant to be too definite about it. I know that those who receive the special, end-time seal of God (the "144,000") must have a special experience. And yet they still have sinful natures until the Second Coming, and righteousness is always by faith alone, even for all eternity.

Robert, if God sets a test for the whole human race, by which they will give final indication of whose side they are on, we had better pass that test, whether it involves the Day of Worship, or any other commandment, whatever the test is that God has chosen. No one can claim to have faith in Christ if they come down on the wrong side of a test that God has chosen to give us.

[Robert]

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Ron Lambert said:

Robert, if God sets a test for the whole human race, by which they will give final indication of whose side they are on, we had better pass that test, whether it involves the Day of Worship, or any other commandment, whatever the test is that God has chosen. No one can claim to have faith in Christ if they come down on the wrong side of a test that God has chosen to give us.

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It's not so much a test...rather it, the Sabbath, will then be a seal of the righteousness we already had by faith. The legalists will reject the sign, which proves their unbelief.

Would you like to know more?

Rob

[Parade Orange]

Many of these posts are so Holy Spirit Driven!

Praise GOD!

I cant think anything to add.

This is where many shine.

If I be lifted up I will draw all men to me.

Praise God

[Gerr]

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Robert said:

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Ron Lambert said:

Robert, if God sets a test for the whole human race, by which they will give final indication of whose side they are on, we had better pass that test, whether it involves the Day of Worship, or any other commandment, whatever the test is that God has chosen. No one can claim to have faith in Christ if they come down on the wrong side of a test that God has chosen to give us.

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It's not so much a test...rather it, the Sabbath, will then be a seal of the righteousness we already had by faith. The legalists will reject the sign, which proves their unbelief.

Would you like to know more?

Rob

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[:"blue"] Would I like to know more? What I would like to know is your answer to my question. I think I know the drift of your previous answer, but for the sake of one whom you labeled as being ignorant, I would like a crystal clear answer to the question:

Does a believer who continues to fornicate, steal, covet, worship idols, etc. etc., remain assured of salvation?

[/]

Gerry

[Gerr]

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If I seem to be dancing around the question of just what our experience will be after probation closes, it is because I am hesitant to be too definite about it. I know that those who receive the special, end-time seal of God (the "144,000") must have a special experience. And yet they still have sinful natures until the Second Coming, and righteousness is always by faith alone, even for all eternity.

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[:"blue"]Then let's say that if probation were to close today, this moment as I write this, would a believer who has continued to fornicate, steal, covet, & worship idols up to this moment, still remain having the assurance of salvation? [/]

Gerry