I'm A Good Man--most of the time!

[Robert]

Quote:

---

archierieus said:

Once again, are you saying that a believer in Jesus will continue to wilfully sin, whether worshiping idols, committing adultery, stealing, lying, etc., you name it, right up until the time Jesus returns in the clouds of glory--AND be taken home to heaven? Is your answer 'yes,' or is it 'no'?

---

A believer will acknowledge known sin! Hence he will not practice sin in that respect. Will he be perfect? Yes, "in Christ"!

Here's your problem as a legalist:

1] You only present those rules you can keep [like the ones above]. You gloss over the spirit of the law because you know you ain't measuring up. It requires 100% selflessness.

2] Since you are keeping some of the rules, you expect everyone else to do as you do. When they don't you declare them lost.

[Robert]

Quote:

---

archierieus said:

Are you serious, Robert? Neither Gerry, nor anyone else on this thread, is suggesting that believers of any stripe need to be circumcised or keep the ceremonial law.

---

"The law of Moses" isn't just ceremonial law. It contains the moral law and many, many other laws.

All Paul is saying in Galatians chapter 5 is IF you make the keeping of one rule a condition upon receiving heaven, then you yourself must keep all the rules contained in the "book of the law."

As to what law is referred to in Galatians, well that was settled many years ago around 1888. Here's EGW:

The Ellen G. White 1888 Materials, 1725:

"I am asked concerning the law in Galatians. What law is the school-master to bring us to Christ? I answer: Both the ceremonial and the moral code of ten commandments."

So if you want heaven by law you must fulfil all the ceremonies [hence, you must be Christ] and you must live a life of selflessness. Otherwise Dave quit jawing and making rules for everyone else to keep when you fail yourself. Stop with the legalism....

Rob

[Robert]

Quote:

---

Robert said:

"I am asked concerning the law in Galatians. What law is the school-master to bring us to Christ? I answer: Both the ceremonial and the moral code of ten commandments."

---

Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, to perform them.”

Gal 3:24 "So the law was put in charge until Christ that we might be justified by faith. 25 Now that the faith [Jesus] has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law."

Believers are not under law, period. Yes we grow...yes we mature, but in our personal relationship with Christ. Otherwise those who insist on certain rules become our popes and persecution is sure to follow. That is the path Dave and Gerry is walking in. Be warned.

Rob

[archierieus]

Quote:

---

Robert said:

So we cannot have fellowship with God and still sin? Well, you must read the rest of the context because John defines sin as deception, i.e, "IF we say we have no sin we DECEIVE ourselves." Darknesss then is the sin of self-righteousness!

---

Actually, both John and Paul speak in several places about the 'deeds of darkness,' and actually list categories. Self-righteousness certainly is one of them, but there are other items as well. In this passage in 1 John, the author speaks to those who have come out of darkness and accepted Christ ("my little children . . ."). He admonishes them to not walk in darkness, to not continue to sin, (in fact, he says that if anyone continues to sin, there is no light in him) to, instead, live as children of the light. This is set forth in a very straightforward way.

Quote:

---

If we walk in the light, Jesus' blood CLEANSES US FROM ALL SIN....To whom is this purifying offered? To those who acknowledge that they have sinned. What if a person refuses to acknowledge that s/he has sinned? S/he cannot be purified, and is a liar.

Your focus is based on what Christ does in us....This is not what saves. You make it what saves and hence you are a subtle legalist!

---

Please provide backquotes from my posts which state that. You are here asserting that such is my focus. Let's see the statements which you are referring to.

Quote:

---

Turn to Col 1:21 And although you were formerly

alienated and hostile in mind

, engaged in evil deeds, 22 yet He has now reconciled you

in His fleshly body

[i.e., "in Christ"] through death, in order to present you before Him

holy and blameless and beyond reproach

— 23 if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast . . ." Christ represents us "in Himself"....In Him you are holy and blameless! How? IF you continue in the faith!

---

Looking at this passage, we see that Paul describes the believers as having, in the past, engaged in evil deeds. In many places, Paul speaks of the Gentiles's former wicked way of life, and also speaks of the change which took place in their lives, when they accepted Christ. Are you suggesting, Robert, that there was no change? That they continued to do the evil deeds, while claiming to be blameless 'in Christ'? Are you suggesting that so long as they 'continue in the faith,' they are holy and blameless in Christ, even if they continue to do the deeds of darkness?

Quote:

---

Instead you have Him representing YOU outside of Himself

---

Please provide actual quotations from my posts, in which you find me stating that Christ represents believers outside of Himself.

[Robert]

Quote:

---

archierieus said:

He admonishes them to not walk in darkness, to not continue to sin, (in fact, he says that if anyone continues to sin, there is no light in him) to, instead, live as children of the light. This is set forth in a very straightforward way.

---

Again, a practiced sin is a known sin that the believer refuses to repent of....If we are in "the light" then ALL sin is exposed. What is this "light"?

• "It will be seen [especially in heaven] that the glory [i.e., "light"] shining in the face of Jesus is the [:"red"]glory[/] of self-sacrificing love. In the light from Calvary it will be seen that the law of self-renouncing love is the law of life for earth and heaven; that the love which "seeketh not her own" has its source in the heart of God; and that in the meek and lowly One is manifested the character of Him who dwelleth in the light which no man can approach unto." [DA 19]

What was that? "The light that no man can approach!" What it this glory? "That...love which "seeketh not her own"!!! [The NIV says, “love…is not self-seeking”] As Paul says, "all have sinned AND FALL SHORT OF THE GLORY OF GOD." If we are in the light then we won't be deceived concerning our so called goodness. Compared to Him we are wretched.

Quote:

---

Looking at this passage [Col 1:21-23], we see that Paul describes the believers as having, in the past, engaged in evil deeds.

---

So...what about the change? But change doesn't imply perfection. We still aren't measuring up.

Quote:

---

Are you suggesting that so long as they 'continue in the faith,' they are holy and blameless in Christ, even if they continue to do the deeds of darkness?

---

Attitude...it's about attitude. The believer won't take the attitude that sin is to be enjoyed...nevertheless, he finds himself falling short.

Face it, you are selfish Dave...you are self-seeking. That is the core of all your other sins. It is the driver...the nature...the law of sin. You, as EGW pointed out, are never free of self. You had better hope that Christ represents you in the glorified humanity He took to heaven. If not, then you'll never be "holy and blameless". This is true only "in Christ".

Rob

[Robert]

"him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out." [Jesus]

[archierieus]

Quote:

---

Robert said:

Again, a practiced sin is a known sin that the believer refuses to repent of

---

Refer back to the Greek on that word, which is 'poieoo,' which means to do, to make, etc. You have no Scriptural warrant to come up with your own definitions. For that matter, 'repent' means to turn back, to turn away from the sin, rather than to continue to commit it. That is a different concept from confession or acknowledgement.

Quote:

---

Attitude...it's about attitude. The believer won't take the attitude that sin is to be enjoyed...nevertheless, he finds himself falling short.

---

IOW you are saying that he continues to commmit the sin, but he doesn't enjoy committing it. Please provide SCRIPTURAL or exegetical support for this assertion, and for your assertion that "it's about attitude."

Quote:

---

Face it, you are selfish Dave...you are self-seeking.

---

That, of course, you would have no way of knowing, since you do not know me. Now, as far as your answer to my question, it appears that you are saying that a converted believer will continue to commit known, wilful sin right up to the day Jesus returns. If that is not your position, please clarify.

Dave

[archierieus]

Quote:

---

Robert said:

This cannot refer to the believer because,

1] The only "new" thing that has taken place is his mind/heart.

---

Firstly, please state your definition for "all things," and please provide Scriptural or exegetical support for your definition.

Also, please specify what you mean when you say that the believer has a new mind/heart.

Quote:

---

2] The flesh remains 100% sinful because "the law of sin" is still present.

---

Please define the "law of sin" and clarify what you mean by "still present."

Quote:

---

The only place that "ALL things are become new" is in the holy history of Christ.

---

Please specify in what way all things became new in "the holy history of Christ."

[archierieus]

Quote:

---

Robert said:

"The law of Moses" isn't just ceremonial law. It contains the moral law and many, many other laws.

---

Please provide Scriptural and/or exegetical authority for this statement.

Quote:

---

All Paul is saying in Galatians chapter 5 is IF you make the keeping of one rule a condition upon receiving heaven, then you yourself must keep all the rules contained in the "book of the law."

---

That is neither here nor there. You are the one who brought up the issue of Galatians. And, you brought up Acts 15. Neither of those passages were referenced by anyone else on this thread. It is a non-issue.

But, since you brought it up, then, please provide SCRIPTURAL authority for your assertion. Are you suggesting that if a person murders and does not cease from murdering, steals and does not turn away from stealing, that s/he will go to heaven? Is that what you are suggesting? If so, Scripture, please.

Quote:

---

As to what law is referred to in Galatians, well that was settled many years ago around 1888.

---

That is not an issue on this thread. That is an entirely separate discussion.

[archierieus]

Quote:

---

Robert said:

Believers are not under law, period. Yes we grow...yes we mature, but in our personal relationship with Christ. Otherwise those who insist on certain rules become our popes and persecution is sure to follow.

---

I see. Then, you truly are saying that the Ten Commandments do not apply to Christians. And, you quite evidently are saying that if a Christian murders, steals, lies and/or commits adultery, that s/he is not bound by the law, and thus is not guilty of sin. Please clarify if that indeed is what you are saying.

[archierieus]

Quote:

---

LifeHiscost said:

Dave, you're trying to paint Robert into a corner.

---

There's an old saying, "holding his feet to the fire." At times, doing so can be helpful as an educational tool.

[archierieus]

Quote:

---

Robert said:

[A believer will acknowledge known sin! Hence he will not practice sin in that respect.

---

You make your position very clear, in your response. You appear to be saying, indeed, that a believer will continue to commit known, wilful sin, right up until Jesus comes. You say that s/he will ACKNOWLEDGE known sin, and by so doing will not 'practice' sin. Scripture does not support your position. The Greek word, once again, is 'poieoo' which means 'to do, to make, to bring about,' rather than to acknowledge. Thus, John says in 1 John that if any person continues to sin, there is no light in him. The Bible calls believers to turn away from sin, to renounce sin, and to NOT continue in sin.

Quote:

---

Will he be perfect? Yes, "in Christ"!

---

Not if he wilfully continues in known sin.

Quote:

---

Here's your problem as a legalist:

---

Please provide a Scriptural definition of 'legalist.'

Quote:

---

1] You only present those rules you can keep [like the ones above]. You gloss over the spirit of the law because you know you

ain't

measuring up. It requires 100% selflessness.

---

Actually, I am presenting no rules. I AM referring to the Word of God. God has presented rules, the Ten Commandments, which He expects us to obey, and which He promises to write in the hearts and minds of those who give their lives to Him, AND to give us new hearts and new minds, AND to work within us so that we will and do of His good pleasure.

[Robert]

Quote:

---

archierieus said:

Quote:

---

Robert said:

Believers are not under law, period. Yes we grow...yes we mature, but in our personal relationship with Christ. Otherwise those who insist on certain rules become our popes and persecution is sure to follow.

---

I see. Then, you truly are saying that the Ten Commandments do not apply to Christians. And, you quite evidently are saying that if a Christian murders, steals, lies and/or commits adultery, that s/he is not bound by the law, and thus is not guilty of sin. Please clarify if that indeed is what you are saying.

---

Again, you are limiting sin to the letter of the law. You refrain from doing these things (or maybe not) and fail at keeping the spirit of the law.

• Paul says that as "touching the righteousness which is in the law"--as far as outward acts were concerned -he was "blameless" (Philippians 3:6); but when the spiritual character of the law was discerned, he saw himself a sinner. Judged by the letter of the law [i.e., do not murder, steal, lie, commit adultery, etc] as men apply it to the outward life, he had abstained from sin; but when he looked into the depths of its holy precepts, and saw himself as God saw him, he bowed in humiliation and confessed his guilt. He says, "I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died." Romans 7:9. When he saw the spiritual nature of the law, sin appeared in its true hideousness, and his self-esteem was gone. [sC 29]

[Robert]

Quote:

---

archierieus said:

You appear to be saying, indeed, that a believer will continue to commit known, wilful sin, right up until Jesus comes. You say that s/he will ACKNOWLEDGE known sin, and by so doing will not 'practice' sin. Scripture does not support your position.

---

Neither does it support your legalistic message. You indeed see yourself as some Holy Joe. You need to be humbled!

"We may have flattered ourselves, as did Nicodemus, that our life has been upright, that our moral character is correct, and think that we need not humble the heart before God, like the common sinner: but when the light from Christ [i.e., "the glory of God"] shines into our souls, we shall see how impure we are; we shall discern [:"red"]the selfishness of motive[/], the enmity against God, that has defiled every act of life. Then we shall know that our own righteousness is indeed as filthy rags, and that the blood of Christ alone can cleanse us from the defilement of sin, and renew our hearts [minds] in His own likeness." SC 28

Let me remind you what "the glory of God" is:

"It will be seen that the glory shining in the face of Jesus is the glory of self-sacrificing love....That the love which "seeketh not her own" has its source in the heart of God; and that in the meek and lowly One is manifested the character of Him who dwelleth in the light which no man can approach unto."

[Robert]

Quote:

---

archierieus said:

Actually, I am presenting no rules....God has presented rules, the Ten Commandments,

which He expects us to obey

....

---

Slick....

Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, to perform them.” 11 [:"red"]Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident[/]; for, “The just by faith shall live.” 12 However, the Law is not of faith; on the contrary, “He who practices them shall by them live.”

"Works of the law" meaning "legalism". Why are such believers "under the curse"? Because they desire to be "under law".

"You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace." Gal 5:4

[archierieus]

Quote:

---

Robert said:

Neither does it support your legalistic message.

---

Please define what you mean by "your legalistic message." What is my message, according to you, and in what way is it legalistic? PLEASE PROVIDE BACKQUOTES.

Quote:

---

You indeed see yourself as some Holy Joe.

---

How would you know if that is true?

Quote:

---

You need to be humbled!

---

Please provide backquotes from my posts which support your statement.

[archierieus]

Quote:

---

Robert said:

"Works of the law" meaning "legalism".

---

Let me see if I understand your position: If a believer in Jesus chooses to revere God, to not worship idols, to keep His Sabbath, to respect life and property, to honor relationships, to not covet what belongs to someone else; then, according to you, s/he is a legalist? Is that your position, Robert?

Quote:

---

Why are such believers "under the curse"? Because they desire to be "under law".

---

How would you know if someone who wants to do right, and keep the Ten Commandments, desires to be under law?

Secondly, are you suggesting that God doesn't care if we want to do right, or do right?

Quote:

---

"You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law;

---

In what way do you assert that a believer who wants to do right, would be 'seeking to be justified by law'?

[Gerr]

Robert, here is what Jesus commanded to all sinners, of which I am one.

"Go now and leave your life of sin." Jn 8:11 NIV

"Go and sin no more." NLT

"From now on sin no more." NASB

"Stop sinning or something worse may happen to you." Jn 5:14 NIV

"Do not sin anymore, so that nothing worse happens to you." NASB

If you insist on continueing in sin, that is your prerogative, but if you do, you might as well sin to your heart's content. As for me, I am claiming His promise that by abiding in Him and through the power of His indwelling Helper, that Almighty Spirit that raised His Son from the grave, that the promise in 1 Jn 3:6 that "no one who lives in him keeps on sinning," will be fulfilled in me.

Gerry

[Ron Lambert]

I've been off the internet for two days, and already there is such a vast exchange of comments it is impractical for me to try to encompass all of it. I just want to underline something in that familar yet too-seldom remembered text, Isaiah 64:6: "But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away."

Please note that in the above, it does not say that all our sins are as filthy rags. It says all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags.

Instead of jumping to some hasty means of explaining this away or attempting to divert attention from it, let's ask ourselves what, truly, this must mean.

[archierieus]

Exactly. Even if we should do everything right that we know about, still, we could only be acceptable to God through the merits of Christ. Our faithfulness to God does not earn us salvation. Even the prayers of God's people are acceptable to God, only as they are mingled with the intercession of Christ. (illustrated by the composition of the incense in the sanctuary)

Dave

[Robert]

Quote:

---

archierieus said:

Quote:

---

Robert said:

Neither does it support your legalistic message.

---

Please define what you mean by "your legalistic message." What is my message, according to you, and in what way is it legalistic? PLEASE PROVIDE BACKQUOTES.

---

"God has presented rules, the Ten Commandments, which He expects us to obey"

[Robert]

Quote:

---

archierieus said:

Quote:

---

Robert said:

"Works of the law" meaning "legalism".

---

Let me see if I understand your position: If a believer in Jesus chooses to revere God, to not worship idols, to keep His Sabbath, to respect life and property, to honor relationships, to not covet what belongs to someone else; then, according to you, s/he is a legalist? Is that your position, Robert?

---

Yes...if she/he is depending on those things to save her/him.

Quote:

---

How would you know if someone who wants to do right, and keep the Ten Commandments, desires to be under law?

---

See answer above.

Quote:

---

Secondly, are you suggesting that God doesn't care if we want to do right, or do right?

---

No...God wants us to grow! The problem is you guys are trying to establish how much growth is necessary before one can have the assurance of salvation. You are, as I have stated, legalists.

Quote:

---

In what way do you assert that a believer who wants to do right, would be 'seeking to be justified by law'?

---

"Wanting to do right" isn't doing right. The law doesn't give out credit for "effort"...it demands perfect selflessness.

[Robert]

• "Go now and leave your life of sin." Jn 8:11 NIV

  "Go and sin no more." NLT

  "From now on sin no more." NASB

  "Stop sinning or something worse may happen to you." Jn 5:14 NIV

  "Do not sin anymore, so that nothing worse happens to you." NASB

Let me give more quotes:

"You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect." [Matt 5:48 RSV]

"For not the hearers of the Law are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified." [Rom 2:13 NASB]

"For it is written: 'Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law'" [Gal 3:10]

Quote:

---

As for me, I am claiming His promise that by abiding in Him and through the power of His indwelling Helper, that Almighty Spirit that raised His Son from the grave, that the promise in 1 Jn 3:6 that "no one who lives in him keeps on sinning,"

will be fulfilled in me

.

---

Will be fulfilled in me? That's future tense, Gerry. What about now? What if you died now in your sins, not having been perfected?

Rob

[archierieus]

Quote:

---

Robert said:

"God has presented rules, the Ten Commandments,

which He expects us to obey"

---

Well if that don't beat all! Alright, you have clearly stated it. You consider it legalistic, that God expects us to obey the Ten Commandments. I am truly amazed. In fact, right now, I am in a state of disbelief. But, you did clearly state your position, and that has been helpful.

Dave

[archierieus]

Quote:

---

Robert said:

Yes...if she/he is depending on those things to save her/him.

---

Please state who on this thread is asserting such a thing--that is, to depend on doing those things to save him or her. Please provide backquotes.

Quote:

---

The problem is you guys are trying to establish how much growth is necessary before one can have the assurance of salvation.

---

Please provide backquotes of any statements made by the undersigned, or anyone else on this thread, which "are trying to establish how much growth is necessary before one can have the assurance of salvation." If you are unable to provide backquotes, that will be proof that your statement is false.

Quote:

---

In what way do you assert that a believer who wants to do right, would be 'seeking to be justified by law'?

"Wanting to do right" isn't doing right. The law doesn't give out credit for "effort"...it demands perfect selflessness.

---

That was not the question. Once again, in what way do you assert that a believer who wants to do right, would be seeking to be justified by law?

Dave