I'm A Good Man--most of the time!

[Stan]

Amen.......

[Gerr]

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Robert said:

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Gerry Cabalo said:

That so-called faith in Christ which professes to release men from the obligation of obedience to God, is not faith, but

presumption

." </font> Ibid SC 27-29

Gerry

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Please explain this:

• "The religious services, the prayers, the praise, the penitent confession of sin ascend from true believers as incense to the heavenly sanctuary, but passing through the corrupt channels of humanity they are so defiled that unless purified by blood, they can never be of value with God.They ascend not in spotless purity, and unless the Intercessor, who is at God’s right hand, [:"red"]presents and purifies all by His righteousness[:"black"], it is not acceptable to God."

  All incense from earthly tabernacles [i.e., true believers] must be moist with the cleansing drops of the blood of Christ [i.e., His righteousness]. He holds before the Father the censer of His own merits, [:"red"]in which there is no taint of earthly corruption [:"black"]. He gathers into this censer the prayers, the praise, and the confessions of His people, and with these He puts His own spotless righteousness. Then, perfumed with the merits of Christ’s propitiation, the incense comes up before God wholly and entirely acceptable. Then gracious answers are returned.

  "Oh, that all may see that everything [:"red"]in obedience[/], in penitence, in praise and thanksgiving, must be placed upon the glowing fire of the righteousness of Christ. The fragrance of this righteousness ascends like a cloud around the mercy seat." [1SM 344]

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[:"blue"]Here are more explanations from the one you keep portraying as being against obedience by your disingenuous selection of quotations.

[/] [:"red"]From the very beginning of the great controversy in heaven it has been Satan's purpose to overthrow the law of God. It was to accomplish this that he entered upon his rebellion against the Creaator, and though he was cast out of heaven he has contued the same warfare upon the earth. To deceive men, and thus lead them to transgress God's law, is the object which he has steadfastly pursued. Whether this be accomplished by casting aside the law altogether, or by rejecting one of its precepts, the result will be ultimately the same.....

....The last great conflict between truth and error is but the final struggle of the long-standing controversy concerning the law of God. Upon this battle we are now entering - a battle between the laws of men and the precepts of Jehovah, between the religion of the Bible and the religion of fable and tradition.

....Many ministers are teaching their people, and many professors and teachers are instructing their students that the law of God has been changed or abrogated; and those who regard its requirements as still valid, to be literally obeyed, are thought to be deserving only of [:"blue"]ridicule and contempt. [/]

In rejecting the truth, men rejects its Author. In trampling upon the law of God, they deny the authority of the Law-giver.

....No error accepted by the Christian world strikes more boldly against the authority of Heaven, none is more directly opposed to the dictates of reason, none is more pernicious in its results, than the modern doctrine, so rapidly gaining ground, that God's law is no longer binding upon men.

...Already the doctrine that men are released from obedience to God's requirements has weakened the force of moral obligation and opened the floodgates of iniquity upon the world. GC chapter"Impending Conflict."[/]

Gerry

[archierieus]

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LifeHiscost said:

The rub comes in when we think it as >>our works<<, seen as either inhibiting or facilitating entrance into the kingdom.

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Actually, I should have given proper attribution. Those words are from the booklet, "Faith and Works," a small compilation of sermons articles by EGW. I will try to remember to bring the book to the office so I can provide the quote. I am also familiar with the chapter you referenced from COL. There are some very interesting statements in that chapter. I'll see if I can locate a copy of the book, and get back to you.

Regards, Dave

[archierieus]

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LifeHiscost said:

The rub comes in when we think it as >>our works<<, seen as either inhibiting or facilitating entrance into the kingdom.

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Ahh, I think I see what you mean. In other words, 'works' that WE do in our own strength, rather than Christ working in us, through us and with us. Is that what you are referring to?

[Ron Lambert]

They are still our works even if the Holy Spirit is enabling us to do them. That makes NO difference! Saying that we depend upon our works for anything, even with the Holy Spirit's enabling, is just double-talk; it is still self-righteousness and legalism. It is not very different from the old heresy of semi-pelagianism.

Our faith and works have value only because we are in Christ, and He represents us, He is judged in our place. Our faith and works show our commitment to Him, that we do see ourselves as being in Him. Because we are in Christ, our faith and works can be viewed by God as evidence that we belong in Christ's kingdom. Because we are in Christ, our faith and works can be rewarded, and it can be judged how many stars will be in our crown, how near to Christ we shall stand, and whatever other honors the Lord has reserved for those who are redeemed in Christ.

We are saved only by what Christ Himself did 2,000 years ago without any help from us. Our only hope for righteousness is to be in Christ, seeing that He stands for all of us in judgment. Our faith and our works then belong to Him, and for that reason only God can impute value to our imperfect faith and works, and reward them as if it were Christ who had done our works and exercised our faith. This is NOT because He is doing the works in us--we do the works, with His help, but still it is we who do the doing. It is only because we are in Christ that our faith and works mean anything.

[archierieus]

In reading your post, Ron, I was left a little confused. I'm not sure exactly what you are saying. You seem to be saying one thing initially, but then you seem to say something difdferent in the following paragraph. Quite honestly, I think a lot of this boils down to semantics. I do know for sure, that there is a lot of confusion out there about this topic, which is unfortunate. As for 'rewards,' I think that is bogus. The whole idea smacks of a hierarchy, of some kind of 'pecking order.' I do see the potential for distortion of Bible truth, however. Somehow, the idea comes across in your post that what we do--and here is where semantics may be involved--but, at any rate, whether we continue in wilful sin, or not, has no bearing upon our eternal destiny. IOW, we can continue to sin and still be saved. Is that what you are suggesting?

Dave

[Robert]

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Gerry Cabalo said:

The receiving of righteousness from God whether it be the righteousness of God received in justification or sanctification, is received through faith alone.

Gerry

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Our justification is by faith alone....I might add a continuing faith.

Sanctification is experience AS we learn to walk in the Spirit. To some thirty-fold, some sixty...and some hundred fold.

Again, you miss the big picture. God's selfless law of agape requires the life Jesus lived. He is the fulfillment of the law! This you are falling short of.... What part of that can't you understand?

Ultimately we are saved by what Christ did 2000 years ago.

Rob

[Robert]

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Gerry Cabalo said:

"Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new." 2 Cor 5:17 NKJ. The only thing not new is his physical body; this will be changed at the Second Coming when he receives immortality. Anyone waiting to be miraculously changed in character at the Second Coming will have a very shocking awakening.

Gerry

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I've already answered Norman on this one. 2 Cor 5:17, taken in context, is speaking of our new humanity residing "in Christ" and not what God does in the believer...

The only thing that changes upon conversion is the mind or attitude. The flesh remains 100% sinful until your dying day. Also, you are still a sinner till your dying day. By that I don't mean you love sin. No, I simply mean that you fall short. Again, please remember Rom 3:23 and 1 John 1:8. You keep forgetting.

Rob

[Robert]

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Ron Lambert said:

Saying that we depend upon our works for anything, even with the Holy Spirit's enabling, is just double-talk; it is still self-righteousness and legalism. It is not very different from the old heresy of semi-pelagianism.

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THANK YOU RON!!! You are right on the money.

They say, "It's not us doing the works, it's God." So salvation is still faith AND works!

Well, that doesn't wash because the Holy Spirit will NEVER contradict Christ's doing and dying....He doesn't ADD to Christ's perfect and finished work. The only thing the believer can do, through the Spirit, is to experience what is already true of him "in Christ."

For example we are told by Paul that our fallen humanity was crucified with Christ [see Rom 6:6; Rom 7:4; 2 cor 5:14; Gal 2:20]. This truth, accepted by faith, IS what saves.

After we have the assurance of that truth, Paul encourages believers to experience that truth in their lives. Let's look at this. To do this we must go back to Romans 5:20

"...where sin increased, grace increased all the more, 21 so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."

Someone could read this and reason, "The more I sin the more grace covers me! Praise the Lord let's sin all the more...." I believe Paul had such an "attitude" in mind because in the next verse he says,

"What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2 By no means!"

Now Paul tells us why:

"We died to sin; how can we live [attitude-wise] in it any longer?"

Where did we die to sin?

Answer: Verse 6 "For we know [through the gospel] that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin— 7 because anyone who has died has been freed from sin."

Our old humanity died forever "in Christ". In its place Christ took a glorified humanity to heaven. He left sin in the grave. So "in Him" we have been freed from all aspects of sin.

Paul now takes this truth and says, "10 the death that He died, He died to sin, once for all....11 Even so consider [or reckon (again "attitude")] yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.12 Therefore do not let sin reign [as you did in your unconverted state] in your mortal body that you should obey its lusts....

The point here is "our trying" to yield so the Spirit can help us experience the life of Christ is based upon what Christ has already done. Paul calls it "obeying the gospel", which is different than obeying the law, although there are some similarities.

Rob

[Robert]

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archierieus said:

IOW, we can continue to sin and still be saved.

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Dave, "falling short" is continuing to sin.

Paul doesn't say we are "in" [as in we are keeping the law as did Christ] then, opps, we mess up and fall short. No...he's saying we never measure up! Please remember if there ever comes a time in your life when you say that you are without sin, then John says you deceive yourself.

Yes...grow...please grow! Nothing wrong with growth at all, Paul, Jesus and all the NT writers encourage it.

So again I believe we shouldn't condone or justify sinning. We shouldn't take the ATTITUDE [Nico gets credit for this view] that sinning is just fine....That to me is "continuing in sin". After all, before conversion we justified sin....

Rob

[Robert]

-BC- AA

-TI- The Acts of the Apostles

-CN- 55

-CT- Transformed by Grace

-PR- 03

-PG- 560

"Sanctification [growth in grace] is not the work of a moment, an hour, a day, but of a lifetime.....So long as Satan reigns, we shall have self to subdue, besetting sins [sin of repetition] to overcome; so long as life shall last, there will be no stopping place, no point which we can reach and say, I have fully attained. Sanctification is the result of lifelong obedience."

Please notice a few things:

1] Growth is never ending...we will be growing all through our lives (i...e., as long as we can use our minds).

2] We can never say we have fully matured, i.e., we are without sin. We still "fall short".

3] EGW equates this with obedience, which many take to mean the law. But this cannot be for the law requires perfect, unblemished obedience. Hence I believe she is speaking of the obedience of faith or “obeying the gospel”.

[archierieus]

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Robert said:

Where did we die to sin?

Answer: Verse 6 "For we know [through the gospel]

that our old self was crucified with him

so that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin— 7 because anyone who has died has been freed from sin."

Our old humanity died forever "in Christ". In its place Christ took a glorified humanity to heaven. He left sin in the grave. So "in Him" we have been freed from all aspects of sin.

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Ahh, we cut to the chase. That is precisely the problem, Robert. According to your theory, this happens OUTSIDE the believer. The believer, then, does not PERSONALLY die to sin. Instead, Christ VICARIOUSLY died, and therefore, according to you, our humanity VICARIOUSLY died with Christ--but we still, on a personal, experiential level, are in bondage to sin. THERE is the rub! IOW on a personal level, we keep on sinning.

Now, this kind of stuff is what left me puzzled some twenty-five years ago, when I heard of the teachings of Desmond Ford. Logic drove me to a conclusion: Quite simply, there was a lot of double-talk. Ford, and Geoffrey Paxton. Ron's post reminded me of that kind of stuff. Cut to the chase, man, cut to the chase. However you want to doll it up, you are faced with an either-or situation. EITHER what you DO in this corpus, matters in regard to your salvation, OR it doesn't. EITHER a person may keep on sinning--worshiping idols, blaspheming God, committing adultery, you name it--right up to the time Jesus returns in the clouds of glory; OR s/he cannot. You can't have it both ways. Skip the fancy-pants verbal gymnastics and cut to the chase. Which is it, Robert and Ron? This calls for a simple yes or no answer, not a whole fusillade of quotes.

Dave

[archierieus]

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Ron Lambert said:

It is not very different from the old heresy of semi-pelagianism.

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Balderdash. Or perhaps you can concisely state your understanding of semi-pelagianism, and then concisely state how you find that in anything which I have posted. Please include back-quotes.

Dave

[archierieus]

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Robert said:

Paul now takes this truth and says, "10 the death that He died, He died to sin,

once for all

....11 Even so

consider

[or reckon (again "attitude")] yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.12 Therefore do not let sin

reign

[as you did in your unconverted state] in your mortal body that you should obey its lusts....

---

Ahh, so you say that believers will have an ATTITUDE of wanting to do right, in their minds, but they are still in bondage to sin, in their bodies. Is that correct? If so, then according to your theory of the gospel, it is in the mind, not in the experience. You seem to see the law of sin and death as holding us in bondage, even after we accept Christ. Robert, is that correct?

Dave

[archierieus]

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Robert said:

I've already answered Norman on this one. 2 Cor 5:17, taken in context, is speaking of our new humanity residing "in Christ" and not what God does in the believer...

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Please show FROM THE BIBLE that Paul in this verse DOES NOT speak of what Christ does in the believer. That concept is new to me. Bible please, just as Sr. White taught.

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The only thing that changes upon conversion is the mind or attitude. The flesh remains 100% sinful until your dying day. Also, you are still a sinner till your dying day. By that I don't mean you love sin. No, I simply mean that you fall short. Again, please remember Rom 3:23 and 1 John 1:8. You keep forgetting.

Rob

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Ahh, so with your mind you serve the law of God, but you as a person are still in bondage to sin? Is that your teaching? On what Scriptural authority do you teach that?

[LifeHiscost]

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Gerry Cabalo said:

The good works in the believer's life is NOT man's works. It is the work of God with the the cooperation of the believer.

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Right on Gerry. And even the cooperation of the believer is a gift from God, impossible to exercise by man when separated from the life of Christ imparted to the believing suppliant, as the glove has no life for activity without the living hand within.

[:"red"] "...indeed, we had the sentence of death within ourselves so that we would not trust in ourselves, but in God who raises the dead..." [/] 2 Cor 1:9 NASB

[:"red"] "..I myself no longer live, but Christ lives in me... " [/] Gal 2:20 AMP

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"Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; for

it is God who works in you both to will to do for His good pleasure."

Phil 2:13 NKJ, wrought out by "Him who

is able to do exceedingly abundantly above all that we ask or think,

according to the

power that works in us,

to Him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus to all generations, forever and ever. Amen." Eph 3:20,21 NKJ.

"...and that you put on the new man which was created according to God, in true righteousness & holiness." Eph 4:24 NKJ.

The receiving of righteousness from God whether it be the righteousness of God received in justification or sanctification, is received through faith alone.

(That deserves to be in bold LHC)

Gerry

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And that faith is the faith of Jesus, imparted to man as a gift of the Holy Spirit, lest any boast.

[:"red"] "God chose things despised by the world, things counted as nothing at all, and used them to bring to nothing what the world considers important, so that no one can ever boast in the presence of God." [/]

1 Cor 1:28 NLT

[:"red"] "But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God—and righteousness and sanctification and redemption— that, as it is written, “He who glories, let him glory in the LORD.”" [/]

1 Cor 1:30,31 NKJV

[:"red"] "I am the vine, you are the branches.... apart from Me you can do nothing." [/] John 15:5 NASB

[:"red"] "The pride of man will be humbled And the loftiness of men will be abased; And the LORD alone will be exalted in that day" [/] Isaiah 2:17 NASB

[:"red"] "For whosoever exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted." [/] Luke 14:11 KJV

Keep the faith!

[LifeHiscost]

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Robert said:

Ultimately we are saved by what Christ did 2000 years ago.

Rob

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It is good to remember what Christ did for us 2,000 years ago, Robert. But unless you or I respond in positive recognition to the voice of the Lifegiver at His second coming, that which Jesus did then will not be sufficient.

An example of those still dead in their sins at His coming for the bride of Christ, reveals those content to continue

living the sinful life.

[:"red"] "And he has given him authority to judge all mankind because he is the Son of Man. Don't be so surprised! Indeed, the time is coming when all the dead in their graves will hear the voice of God's Son, and they will rise again. Those who have done good will rise to eternal life, and those who have continued in evil will rise to judgment." [/] John 5:27-29 NLT

[:"red"] " Then the kings of the earth and the great men and the commanders and the rich and the strong and every slave and free man hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains;

and they said to the mountains and to the rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the presence of Him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb;

for the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?" [/] Rev 6:15-17 NASB

[:"red"] "And it shall be that whoever shall call upon the name of the Lord [ invoking, adoring, and worshiping the Lord--Christ] shall be saved." [/] Acts 2:21 AMP

[Gerr]

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Robert said:

-BC- AA

-TI- The Acts of the Apostles

-CN- 55

-CT- Transformed by Grace

-PR- 03

-PG- 560

"

Sanctification

[growth in grace] is not the work of a moment, an hour, a day,

but of a lifetime.

....So long as Satan reigns, we shall have self to subdue,

besetting sins

[sin of repetition] to overcome;

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[:"blue"]Do you ever use the dictionary, Robert? If you use words outside of their common use & understanding, that leads to miscommunication/misunderstanding.

Let me quote Webster again, since apparently you disregarded it before. Besetting - adj. constantly harassing or attacking [a besetting temptation]; beset - vt. 1. to cover or set thickly with; stud 2. to attack from all sides; harass or besiege 3. to surround or hem in.

Nowhere in this definition does it ever imply a yielding to or being repeatedly overcome by whatever is harassing or attacking a person. But what do you do? You twist the words to suit your thinking!

What does the Bible promise when harassed & attacked by sin or the devil? [:"red"] "Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, and to present you faultless..." Jude 24; "No temptation [including besetting sin]has overtaken you except such as is common to man; but God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will also make the way of escape, that you may be able to bear it." 1 Cor 10:13 NKJ "For everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. Who is it that overcomes the world? Only he who believes that Jesis is the Son of God." 1 Jn 5:4,5 NIV [/] [/]

You claim to believe in the Christ who died 2000 yrs ago, but apparently the Christ you believe in did not rise from the grave because He can't help you or any believer to overcome.

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so long as life shall last, there will be no stopping place, no point which we can reach and say,

I have fully attained.

Sanctification is the result of lifelong obedience."

Please notice a few things:

1] Growth is never ending...we will be growing all through our lives (i...e., as long as we can use our minds).

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[:"blue"]Please answer this question. How can you claim to be growing if you keep repeating the same sin over & over & over & over again & again & again? Growing while remaining the same size? Running while standing still? Claiming to be fighting while shadow-boxing? Claiming victory while losing? [/]

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2] We can never say we have fully matured, i.e., we are without sin. We still "fall short".

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[:"blue"]"And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to Him who sat on the cloud, 'Thrust in Your sickele and reap, for the time has come for You to reap, for the harvest of the earth is ripe. So He who sat on the cloud thrust in His sickle on the earth, and the earth was reaped." Rev 14:15,16 NKJ.

"Therefore let us, as many as are mature, have this mind; and if anything you think otherwise, God will reveal even this to you..." Phil 3:15 NKJ. [/]

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3] EGW equates this with obedience, which many take to mean the law. But this cannot be for the law requires perfect, unblemished obedience. Hence I believe she is speaking of the obedience of faith or “obeying the gospel”.

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[:"blue"]Let EGW explain herself & not put your words into her mouth.

"There is no evidence of genuine repentance unless it works reformation." SC 59

"Obedience - the service and allegiance of love - is the true sign of discipleship. Thus the Scripture says, 'This is the love of God, that we keep His commandments.' 'He that saith, I know Him, and keepeth not His commandmentS, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.' 1 Jn 5:3;2:4. Instead of releasing man from obedience, it is faith, and faith only, that makes us partakers of the grace of Christ, which enable us to render obedience." Ibid 60-61.

"That so-called faith in Christ which professes to release men from the obligation of obedience to God, is not faith, but presumption. 'By grace are ye saved through faith.' But 'faith, if it hath not works, is DEAD.' Eph 2:8; Jam 2:17 Ibid 61. [/]

Gerry

[Gerr]

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Robert said:

Quote:

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archierieus said:

IOW, we can continue to sin and still be saved.

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Dave, "falling short" is continuing to sin.

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[:"blue"]If your interpretation is correct that we continue to sin, then reconcile it with:

"We know that anyone born of God does NOT continue to sin; the one who was born of God keeps him safe, and the evil one does not touch him." 1 Jn 5:18 NIV [/]

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Yes...grow...please grow! Nothing wrong with growth at all, Paul, Jesus and all the NT writers encourage it.

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[:"blue"]Ah, but same old, same old, same old!!! [/]

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So again I believe we shouldn't condone or justify sinning. We shouldn't take the ATTITUDE [Nico gets credit for this view] that sinning is just fine....That to me is "continuing in sin". After all, before conversion we justified sin....

Rob

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[:"blue"]Don't condone it but just keep doing it, huh? [/]

Gerry

[Ron Lambert]

Even if we reached the point where we are so mature in faith that we never sin in thought or deed, that still would not be good enough to be acceptable by God; we must be in Christ to be counted sinless, and there is no other way. And that is only thinking in terms of avoiding the negatives. What about doing righteous works, that benefit and bless others, in harmony with the spirit of love that is the real heart of the righteousness that God reqquires? The best we could do would still be imperfect and marred, no better than filthy rags. Any good we could ever do would avail nothing. Righteousness must be imputed to our works. We must be in Christ, so He can stand in our place, and present our faith and works as if they were His own.

A deep and pervading confusion about the gospel has been growing in Adventism ever since 1888. The same persistent resistance to the truth is still seen in those who rebel at the humbling truth that righteousness is only in Christ, we can never make an equal contract out of the covenant.

About eight years ago, I had some correspondence with a writer of the Adult Sabbath School Lesson Quarterly, where I challenged some statements he made, and he went so far as to say that since Christ Himself indwells us by His Spirit, "it is Christ's own righteousness that is in us," and he said "Christ's righteousness has justifying merit." Thus he concluded that "both justifying and sanctifying righteousness are inside of us, in the actual Person of Christ." I still have the letter around somewhere where he said these things.

His problem was focusing on Christ being in us to the extent that he distorted by taking too literally what in the Bible is actually a metaphor. The Person of Christ is not actually inside us! He remains in Heaven, and He gave up the power of Omnipresence when He joined humanity to Himself. The Holy Spirit is active accomplishing things within us, but not in the sense of taking over our identity; and the Holy Spirit is a separate Person from Christ. Sound doctrine is to focus on us being in Christ. It is the primary work of the Holy Spirit to enable us to grasp this truth, and learn to act accordingly, as our faith in Christ becomes whole-hearted.

[Gerr]

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Ron Lambert said:

Even if we reached the point where we are so mature in faith that we never sin in thought or deed, that still would not be good enough to be acceptable by God; we must be in Christ to be counted sinless, and there is no other way.

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[:"blue"] I never claimed that our maturity or obedience would merit heaven. But I do insist that those who claim to be citizens of the kingdom of heaven live like one.[/]

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And that is only thinking in terms of avoiding the negatives. What about doing righteous works, that benefit and bless others, in harmony with the spirit of love that is the real heart of the righteousness that God reqquires?

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[:"blue"] Righteous works is NOT just avoiding the negatives.

"He has told you, O man, what is good;

And what does the LORD require of you

But to do justice, to love kindness,

And to walk humbly with your God?" Mic 6:8 NASB[/]

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The best we could do would still be imperfect and marred, no better than filthy rags. Any good we could ever do would avail nothing. Righteousness must be imputed to our works. We must be in Christ, so He can stand in our place, and present our faith and works as if they were His own.

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[:"blue"]But because our obedience is imperfect and marred, does that release us from doing so?

The fact is, when we obey in love, marred & imperfect it may be, when done in love, God says He is fully satisfied as fulfillment of the requirements of the law, Rom 13:10.

The requirements of the law are fulfilled in/by those "who do not walk according to the flesh [those who do not keep following the dictates of the flesh, i.e. keep on willfully sinning again & again] but according to the Spirit." Rom 8:4 [/]

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A deep and pervading confusion about the gospel has been growing in Adventism ever since 1888. The same persistent resistance to the truth is still seen in those who rebel at the humbling truth that righteousness is only in Christ, we can never make an equal contract out of the covenant.

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[:"blue"]If you read what I said in one of the posts above, I plainly stated that righteousness, whether the righteousness received through justification or works wrought out in sanctification, are received only through faith. [/]

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About eight years ago, I had some correspondence with a writer of the

Adult Sabbath School Lesson Quarterly,

where I challenged some statements he made, and he went so far as to say that since Christ Himself indwells us by His Spirit, "it is Christ's own righteousness that is in us,"

---

[:"blue"]That I believe, "For it is God who is at work in you, both to will & to do for His good pleasure." Phil 2:13 NASB. God is trying to restore in us His image, and His image is seen in the face of Jesus Christ. Therefore it is the righteousness of Christ He is trying to reproduce in us. God would be a liar in proclaiming us to be righteous without making us also righteous. [/]

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and he said "Christ's righteousness has justifying merit."

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[:"blue"]Meritorious for salvation? NEVER!!! [/]

Quote:

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His problem was focusing on Christ being in us to the extent that he distorted by taking too literally what in the Bible is actually a metaphor. The Person of Christ is not actually inside us! He remains in Heaven, and He gave up the power of Omnipresence when He joined humanity to Himself. The Holy Spirit is active accomplishing things within us, but not in the sense of taking over our identity; and the Holy Spirit is a separate Person from Christ. Sound doctrine is to focus on us being in Christ. It is the primary work of the Holy Spirit to enable us to grasp this truth, and learn to act accordingly, as our faith in Christ becomes whole-hearted.

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[:"blue"]If you are focussing only of being in Christ in the way Robert speaks of being "in Christ" without Christ being in you, then you only have a half-sound doctrine, my friend, & a half-sound is not sound at all.

"Abide in me, and I in you." Jn 15:4 NASB. And "no one who abides in Him [who is "in Christ"] sins, no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him." 1 Jn 3:6 NASB. And no one in whom "God's Seed" abides will keep on practicing sin, 1 Jn 3:9. [/]

Gerry

[Robert]

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archierieus said:

Ahh, we cut to the chase. That is precisely the problem, Robert. According to your theory, this happens OUTSIDE the believer. The believer, then, does not PERSONALLY die to sin. Instead, Christ VICARIOUSLY died, and therefore, according to you, our humanity VICARIOUSLY died with Christ--but we still, on a personal, experiential level, are in bondage to sin.

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VICARIOUSLY? I don't think so! Let me quote Ellen White:

"Deity did not die. [:"red"]Humanity died."[/] [5BC, 1113]

Romans 7:4 "You also were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ...."

Ephesians 2:5,6 "When we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places, in Christ Jesus."

Nothing vicarious here....You receive your glorified life at the 2nd coming.

Rob

[Robert]

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archierieus said:

EITHER a person may keep on sinning--worshiping idols, blaspheming God, committing adultery, you name it--right up to the time Jesus returns in the clouds of glory; OR s/he cannot. You can't have it both ways.

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A person may not be doing any of those things you listed, but is he free of sin...of self-seeking?

"so long as life shall last, there will be no stopping place, no point which we can reach and say, I have fully attained. Sanctification is the result of lifelong obedience." [EGW]

"Oh, that all may see that everything [:"red"]in obedience[/], in penitence, in praise and thanksgiving, must be placed upon the glowing fire of the righteousness of Christ." [EGW]

"For there is no distinction; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God...." [Paul]

"If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves...." [John]

[Robert]

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archierieus said:

Ahh, so you say that believers will have an ATTITUDE of wanting to do right, in their minds, but they are still in bondage to sin, in their bodies. Is that correct? If so, then according to your theory of the gospel, it is in the mind, not in the experience. You seem to see the law of sin and death as holding us in bondage, even after we accept Christ. Robert, is that correct?

Dave

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The principle of God's law, agape, is written on the heart/mind throughout the life. It begins at conversion and one begins to understand God's selfless love as he opens himself to the gospel. As he does he matures...he grows...he experiences Christ's life.

But "experience" doesn't answer the law's demands. For one the law is not in the habit of passing out partial credit. Therefore what saves is what Christ did 2000 years ago. If you are depending on your maturity, then you can forget heaven because, this side of eternity, you will never be good enough for heaven.

Rob

[archierieus]

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Robert said:

A person may not be doing any of those things you listed, but is he free of sin...of self-seeking?

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You are not giving a straight answer, Robert. Which is it? Yes or no?