does God condone killing?

August 11, 2006

Another Biblical conundrum I don't understand...

In the 10 commandments God said Thou shalt not kill. But all through the Old Testament are examples of God leading the Israelites to war against other nations. I understand the times when God Himself destroyed people/nations (as in Sodom and Gomorrah), but what about *people* killing other people (for no obvious purpose other than power and control of land) and it seems to be under God's direction? I don't understand that at all.. <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

August 11, 2006

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(for no obvious purpose other than power and control of land)

It is generally a mistake to read modern motivations into the actions of people in ancient times.

It is always a mistake to impute merely human motives to God.

I suggest that you consider the axiom, "God meets people where they are," in light of his treatment of the issues of divorce and slavery. Contemplating God's actions in those cases could be enlightening in this one.

Given the abusive behaviors of many on this forum, I will go no further. But you will no doubt no be treated to a lengthy discussion of whether God ever kills anyone, under any circumstances, and perhaps an in-depth examination of the Hebrew word rasach .

August 11, 2006

I understand that commandment to be, Thou shalt not murder. That is different than going into battle to defend one's territory

August 11, 2006

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It is generally a mistake to read modern motivations into the actions of people in ancient times.

well..yeah...I guess so... <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

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I suggest that you consider the axiom, "God meets people where they are," in light of his treatment of the issues of divorce and slavery. Contemplating God's actions in those cases could be enlightening in this one.

Ed, you lost me on this one.. <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> I don't understand what you mean.

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Gail said:

I understand that commandment to be, Thou shalt not murder. That is different than going into battle to defend one's territory

But the Israelites *took* the territory of Canaan. They were not defending the territory. And I understand they took it at God's behest....so it is okay to kill to gain something if God orders it? <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

I'm truly not trying to be difficult here.. I just don't understand..

August 11, 2006

It would explain why David was not chastised by God for killing 200 Philistines for their foreskins (to please Saul and win his daughter in marriage) but was punished for planning (even though he did not execute) the death of Uriah the Hittite so that he could take his wife Bathsheba

August 11, 2006

And I agree with Ed that God dealt with people differently in those days, speaking to them in a language they understood and meeting them where they were.

In the context here, the ancient people understood violence as a way of life much more than we accept today

August 11, 2006

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Gail said: I understand that commandment to be, Thou shalt not murder. That is different than going into battle to defend one's territory

Okay, then Christ had every reason to "kill" those trying to "murder" Him, but He didn't. Instead He loved His enemies.

1 Peter 2:21 Christ suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in his steps. 22 “He committed no sin [He did nothing wrong], and no deceit was found in his mouth.” 23 When they [the Jews and the Romans] hurled their insults at him, he did not retaliate; when he suffered, he made no threats....

August 11, 2006

Lots of reading!

August 11, 2006

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Ed Dickerson said: It is always a mistake to impute merely human motives to God.

True!

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I suggest that you consider the axiom, "God meets people where they are"

Very true....

God never intended Israel to have a visible king, He did not reject them when they claimed one. And their motive for this perfidy? "That we may be like all the nations" (1 Samuel 8:19).

God warned them of the results of their choice, but He did not reject them for it. Did they, early on, desire to wage war "like" the Egyptians? Yes....

So Ed is right...Even the disciples had the human traits to kill/murder, but look in the following how Jesus rebuked them:

Luke 9:51 And it came about, when the days were approaching for His ascension, that He resolutely set His face to go to Jerusalem; 52 and He sent messengers on ahead of Him. And they went, and entered a village of the Samaritans, to make arrangements for Him. 53 And they did not receive Him, because He was journeying with His face toward Jerusalem. 54 And when His disciples James and John saw this, they said, “Lord, do You want us to command fire to come down from heaven and consume them?” 55 But He turned and rebuked them, and said, “You do not know what kind of spirit you are of; 56 for the Son of Man did not come to destroy men’s lives, but to save them.” And they went on to another village.

August 12, 2006

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Gail said:

I understand that commandment to be, Thou shalt not murder. That is different than going into battle to defend one's territory

I was always taught, as I was growing up, that the commandment stated "Thou shalt not kill."

When I was a kid, our family's mother tongue was Polish, so I learned that the Polish bible also said "Nie zabijaj" (Thou shalt not kill), not "Nie morduj" (Thou shalt not murder.)

It wasn't until I was an adult that I heard of the "Thou shalt not murder" version.

Usually when I hear someone quote "Thou shalt not murder", they are about to justify their pet favorite kind of killing, which they do not see as "murder". Whether this is:

- warfare

- abortion

- bombing abortion clinics and killing abortionists

- capital punishment

- hunting animals for sport

- etc.

aldona

August 12, 2006

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Usually when I hear someone quote "Thou shalt not murder", they are about to justify their pet favorite kind of killing, which they do not see as "murder". Whether this is:

- warfare

- abortion

- bombing abortion clinics and killing abortionists

- capital punishment

- hunting animals for sport

- etc.

LOL I was thinking more of mosquitoes...

While I myself take a non-combattant stance, and I think that is ideal, I won't say that God told people to disobey His commandments when He told them to wipe out such and such village

August 12, 2006

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Gail said:

I understand that commandment to be, Thou shalt not murder. That is different than going into battle to defend one's territory

Indeed. The Hebrew 'qatal' which means to murder or slaughter, specifically. As for going beyond 'murder' to any type of killing, that is a separate issue which would seem to be beyond the scope of the 6th c.

Dave

August 12, 2006

I went back to where it all began: Cain and Able

Genesis 4:4 "...and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him." [KJV]

Slew: Hebrew word 2026 harag { haw-rag’} to kill, slay

NASB: "And it came about when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother and killed him."

RSV: "And when they were in the field, Cain rose up against his brother Abel, and killed him."

NIV: "And while they were in the field, Cain attacked his brother Abel and killed him."

Conclusion: It was okay for Cain to "kill" Able as long as he didn't "murder" him. <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

August 12, 2006

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rudywoofs said:

I understand the times when God Himself destroyed people/nations....it seems to be under God's direction? I don't understand that at all.. <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

This is why "murder" would appear more consistent with the Word [:"red"] "God is Love" [/]. To murder is a term used to describe the depriving of life with malice aforethought. To kill has much mercy in it under certain circumstances, especially when administered by the God of love.

Can you imagine the misery an unrepentant person would have to live under for eternity, if the life of the sinner were never allowed the mercy of death.

[:"red"] "Good understanding giveth favour: but the way of transgressors is hard." [/] Proverbs 13:15 KJV

And how could we equate [:"red"] "God is Love" [/] with "see all those you once knew, writhing in pain from the fires of hell, which God will not extinguish though He is able.

August 12, 2006

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rudywoofs said:

so it is okay to kill to gain something if God orders it? <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

To try to explain why the God of perfect love would order an

action, from the viewpoint of a heart described like this,

[:"red"] "And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually." [/] Genesis 6:5 KJV

[:"red"] "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?"[/] Jer 17:9 (KJV

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I'm truly not trying to be difficult here.. I just don't understand..

It is a mark approved of by God, to recognize and admit our inabilty to know Him to perfection. There is a better day coming.

[:"red"] "For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known." [/] 1 Corinthians 13:12 KJV

Blessings!!

August 12, 2006

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LifeHiscost said: To kill has much mercy in it under certain circumstances, especially when administered by the God of love.

The abortion rights people thank you for legitimizing their cause. After all, who would want to bring an infant into this terrible world?

August 13, 2006

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Robert said:

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LifeHiscost said: To kill has much mercy in it under certain circumstances, especially when administered by the God of love.

The abortion rights people thank you for legitimizing their cause. After all, who would want to bring an infant into this terrible world?

[:"red"]‘Now see that I, even I, am He,And there is no God besides Me; I kill and I make alive, I wound and I heal[/] Deut 32:38 NKJV NKJV

August 13, 2006

This has all been covered before and I do not, at this time, desire to re-invent the wheel. Sooooo, go here and read all about it:

Read me!

If you wish to challenge me, please do so there....

August 13, 2006

quote]rudywoofs said:

Another Biblical conundrum I don't understand...

In the 10 commandments God said Thou shalt not kill. But all through the Old Testament are examples of God leading the Israelites to war against other nations. I understand the times when God Himself destroyed people/nations (as in Sodom and Gomorrah), but what about *people* killing other people (for no obvious purpose other than power and control of land) and it seems to be under God's direction? I don't understand that at all.. <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Yes, the truth is that there is a great deal of bloodshed in the Old Testament and much of it is done at the command of God. In fact, there are a number of times when God Himself was the one who killed people. 1 Chron. 10: 14 says, for instance, that it was God who killed King Saul.

But it is important to realize that the Ten Commandments do not prohibit all killing. The Ten Commandment law reads, literally, "You shall not murder." (Read the New King James Version, the New American Standard Bible, and the New Internationial Version, as well as most other modern translations.) Remember that Exodus 21:23, 24 follows hard on the heels of the prohibition against murder. (However, read also Jesus' words in Matt. 5:38, 39, which show how Jesus calls upon individual Christians to apply the law.)

Now all human societies distinquish between murder and justifiable homicide, and so does God. For instance, if a soldier takes a human life during the heat of battle, virtually no one suggests that the soldier is a murderer. Again, if somone breaks into my house and attempts to murder members of my family, no one would say that I am committing murder if I take a human life in attempting to defend my family. Eccl. 3:3 says, "There is a [proper] time to kill..." On the other hand, Gen. 9:6 says what must be done to those humans who murder. Both texts must be understood.

God told the people of Israel to destroy the people who inhabited the land before them because (1) God knew they would never repent or change, since God had already given them hundreds of years to change; (2) God saw that if those wicked people continued to live near Israel, they would only lead Israel into rebellion against God; and (3) God's primary goal was to save the world through the life and death of the Messiah, who could only come into the world by means of the nation of Israel. Of course, if the Messiah hadn't come, the whole world would have been completely lost.

One thing you might want to keep in mind is that God did not allow David to build His temple in Jerusalem. Why? Because David had "shed too much blood," according to 2 Chronicles 22:8. The Bible shows that David was often a little too enthusiastic in his killing, and of course we know all too well about his murder of Bathsheba's poor husband, an act for which God severely punished David.

At the end of time, God will destroy almost the entire human race, just as He destroyed almost the entire human race at the time of the flood. We need to keep in mind that it is due solely to God's grace and love that He chooses to save any of us at all. He would have been right to destroy all of us. Our salvation is only due to His mercy, not to any obligation on God's part of save any.

August 13, 2006

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Gail said:

I understand that commandment to be, Thou shalt not murder. That is different than going into battle to defend one's territory

It is not murder, of course, for a nation to defend its borders against attack or invasion. Every nation has a right to defend itself, just as every individual has a right to defend himself against attack, and as every individual would be in the right to defend his property against someone trying to steal it. The Bible itself recognizes this right when it makes a distinction between manslaughter and murder and set up cities of refuge for the protection of the innocent person who took human life in self-defence or by accident.

August 13, 2006

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John317 said: 1 Chron. 10: 14 says, for instance, that it was God who killed King Saul.

Here's your reference:

1 Chronicles 10:13 "So Saul died for his unfaithfulness; he was unfaithful to the Lord in that he did not keep the command of the Lord, and also consulted a medium, seeking guidance, 14 and did not seek guidance from the Lord. Therefore the Lord killed him, and turned the kingdom over to David the son of Jesse."

Did God kill him? NO, no, no, no!!!! Saul killed himself! Proof:

Saul said to his armorbearer, “Draw your sword, and thrust me through with it” . . . But his armorbearer would not. . . . [:"red"]Therefore, Saul took a sword and fell on it. . . . So Saul . . . died “[/](1 Chron. 10:4, 6).

Saul killed Saul….he had rejected God…he had hardened his heart, and because God’s love does not coerce – it does not force – God had previously abandoned Saul. Saul had placed himself outside God’s protection (not that God believes in wars). Out of desperation Saul committed suicide.

Throughout the Bible you’ll see that God sees and describes Himself as doing what He does not prevent.

Try again,

Rob

August 13, 2006

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Throughout the Bible you’ll see that God sees and describes Himself as doing what He does not prevent.

Exactly. It's the same as when Pharoah hardened his heart.

Because God is in ultimate control, he is in this sense responsible.

August 13, 2006

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Gail said:

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Throughout the Bible you’ll see that God sees and describes Himself as doing what He does not prevent.

Exactly. It's the same as when Pharoah hardened his heart.

Because God is in ultimate control, he is in this sense responsible.

Right, but in reality Satan is too blame. Assuming the blame (as God does) and being the blame are very different.

Question:

Did the cross deal with the issue of blame?

The answer is No. The cross did not deal with the blame. Who was to blame for sin? The cross only took our guilt and our punishment.

But the issue in the Day of Atonement is, “Who is to blame for sin?”

August 13, 2006

Why would God place Himself as the *fall guy* in the Bible for acts He did not commit, but merely allowed? Isn't that sort of like giving Satan carte blanche to do whatever he wants without having to take responsibility for it? <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

August 14, 2006

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John317 said:

In fact, there are a number of times when God Himself was the one who killed people.

But it is important to realize that the Ten Commandments do not prohibit all killing. The Ten Commandment law reads, literally, "You shall not murder."

Thank you, John317, for a very well thought out summary of logic, consistent with belief that God means what He says. While I admit it isn't always easy to understand why God accepts certain behaviors in mankind, while seemingly overlooking others that appear just as agregious, I'm satisfied the differentiation between murder and kill explains many misapplications of the Word.

Some that would see the preserving of the life of a dedicated serial killer is because of the mercy of God, evidently do not see that the continued liberty of such to continue their assured path of destruction, is tantamount to offering no mercy at all to the continual train of victims that fall prey to such horrendous acts.

There's a story in the Word about Jesus pointing to removing an animal from the ditch on the Sabbath, as being acceptable and allowed by the righteous. Yet the saving of victims from the career criminal's activities is largely ignored as an act of mercy.

Keep looking up!!

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