does God condone killing?

August 21, 2006

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yongttay said:

Quote Robert:

"Pam, pay no attention to this "scare tactic"! This is baloney. Why? As the Bible states, "There is none righteous, no, not even one....There's none good but One, that is, God" and on and on and on.

The fact that we are not perfect proves that the flesh still has a controlling factor. None of us are living Christ's life as recorded in the N.T.

Yes, we mature, but maturity isn't what the law requires! It, the law, requires absolute righteousness both in nature and in performance.

Second of all this "scare tactic" that we "cannot possibly survive in His presence" and therefore we better get perfect is an attempt at driving believers into the camp of legalism. What he is forgetting is at the Second Coming "we shall be changed" in a moment, in the twinkling of eye."

Yes, the bodies of the righteous will be changed at the Second Coming, but God is not going to change people's characters at that time. If that was the case, God could simply change everyone's minds and characters and save all of humanity. Now is the time to get in harmony with God's character. Col. 1:22,23; 3:10. That is precisely what John 3:3, 5 and Revelation 22: 11 is all about. Please carefully study 2 Peter 1: 3-11 and chapter 3: 11-13.

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I agree with you Robert. As long as we live in this present sinful flesh, we shall continue sinning until we die even though our mindset say no to sin. We can only become sinless at His Second Coming when Christ will give each one of us a sinless flesh body to live by.

2 Timothy 2: 19-- "Let every one who names the name of the Lord depart from iniquity." Romans 8:3,4-- ...[Jesus Christ] condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the just requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit." (See also 8:7, 8)

The Holy Spirit has power to keep us from sinning and to help us overcome. Read the beautiful promises about this in 2 Peter 1: 3-10.

It is not about absolute sinlessness but about moment by moment faithfulness to Jesus Christ and allowing Him to be the Master of our lives.

August 21, 2006

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Robert said:

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rudywoofs said:

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Does what I say now make sense?

no - but that's okay... probably beyond me at this point in my journey.. <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

No! This is fundamental....God's love for you MUST be understood for a healthy, stable relationship. Without it you'll be in shifting sand instead of on the Rock, Jesus Christ.

Please remember that on the cross Jesus as the Son of man had to make a choice. He must have thought, "Shall I come down and save Myself from these people spiting in my face...from these people murdering Me, or shall I say goodbye to life forever so that they can take My place in heaven?" Well we know the answer...and that answer speaks volumes of the love God. The cross forever proves that GOD Loves YOU MORE THAN HIMSELF! How can a God who loves us more than Himself kill and cause destruction when these are Satan’s attributes?

Here's a little side thought:

Paul says that, "The wages of sin is death." Get this straight -- "sin" causes death, not God. It pays in death. If God is the cause of death then God is the author of sin, period. Get it?

Rob

And while you are at, please don't forget who made the law of the universe so that sin results in death. God did, of course. Why? Because sin, which is everything contrary to God's character of love, must have an end; it cannot be allowed to go on endlessly. God is a consuming fire to sin. It cannot possibly stand in His glorious, holy presence, nor can those who hold stubbornly onto their sin. (Check out Ps. 24: 3,4; Ezekiel 18.)

The whole sancturary service and pre-advent judgment is all about appealing to us to allow God to clean us up and get rid of sin. The problem is we don't hate sin enough, and some still love it, because we have not yet seen what sin did to God and to Christ. Perhaps Christ is not real enough to us and maybe we frankly don't love Christ enough so that we hate sin as He did.

What was He trying to teach people by the emphasis of holiness in Leviticus and what by the fact that only the High Priest could enter the Most Holy Place and even he could die if he did so under the wrong conditions?

You might want to take out your exhaustive concordance and study all the verses having to do with God's presence and fire, flames, smoke, etc., and then apply it to verses like 2 Thess. 1: 9-11 and Matthew 24: 30-42. Why the urgency for us to be constantly "ready" for Christ's glorious appearing?

August 21, 2006

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CoAspen said: you would know that Christ was not condemning punishment, but rather He is telling them to be merciful and fair.

Verse please!

Matt 5:21 You have heard that the ancients were told, ‘You shall not commit murder’ and ‘Whoever commits murder shall be liable to the court.’ 22 “But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court....

August 21, 2006

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John317 said: Because sin, which is everything contrary to God's character of love, must have an end; it cannot be allowed to go on endlessly.

Then YOU must die!

"If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves"

August 21, 2006

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John317 said: Read Isaiah 59: 2-- "Your iniquities have made a separation between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you so that he does not hear."

Rom 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. 11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement

"In Christ" we have been reconciled to the Father. No separation!!!!

Rob

August 21, 2006

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Robert said:

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John317 said: Because sin, which is everything contrary to God's character of love, must have an end; it cannot be allowed to go on endlessly.

Then YOU must die!

"If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves"

Because of Christ's death on calvery and His work in the heavenly sanctuary, God is able to save those who allow God to clean them up. But people who refuse to allow that process to take place and hold onto their sins will be destroyed. That is plainly stated over and over in the Bible.

August 21, 2006

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Robert said:

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John317 said: Read Isaiah 59: 2-- "Your iniquities have made a separation between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you so that he does not hear."

Rom 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. 11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement

"In Christ" we have been reconciled to the Father. No separation!!!!

Rob

My point is, Rob, that the only thing that can separate us from God is ourselves, if we practice sin or don't confess our sins and ask Him to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Hebrews 3 and 4 reminds us that many were saved from Egyptian slavery and even heard God's voice but were finally destroyed in the wilderness because of a lack of faith and obedience. Could the same thing happen to us? Yes, it could. Just because we once accepted the atonement doesn't mean that we will be finally saved in God's kingdom.

How can we be sure that we know Jesus? If we keep His commandments-- 1 John 2:3. Almost the entire book of First John is about how we can have confidence, and over and over John says it is by our obedience to Jesus Christ.

When we are "in Christ," God views us and treats us just as if we had never sinned and, in fact, He credits us with the righteousness of His Son. The thing that each of us needs to study and settle in our own hearts and minds is what it means to be "in Christ," and are we really "in Christ"?

1 John 2:4-- "He who says 'I know him' but disobeys his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him." Compare Revelation 22:14, 15-- "Blessed are those who keep His commandments [or who wash their robes] that they may have the right to the tree of life and that they may enter the city by the gates. Outside are the dogs and sorcerers and fornicators and murderers and idolaters, and every one who loves and practices falsehood."

Will there, then, be some outside the city who at one time accepted Christ and His atonement but, like those in the wilderness of Sinai who died before they reached the promised land for lack of faith and obedience, will be finally rejected by God for the same reason? Undoubtedly so. Think of Ananias and his wife Sapphira and study carefully the warnings in Romans 11: 20-22 and in Ezekiel 18: 21-32.

August 21, 2006

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Robert said:

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John317 said: Don't forget that to disobey God means death, not because God arbitrarily kills people but because people who hold onto sin cannot possibly survive in His presence.

Pam, pay no attention to this "scare tactic"! This is baloney. Why? As the Bible states, "There is none righteous, no, not even one....There's none good but One, that is, God" and on and on and on.

Satan said the same thing to Eve. "Don't pay attention to what God has said-- it is just a scare tactic." If you don't believe disobedience brings death, you need to re-read what happened to Adam. God warned Adam that if he disobeyed and ate fruit from the tree in the midst of the garden, he would surely die. Of course Satan flatly contradicted God's warning and said it was just a scare tactic. According to Genesis 5:5, however, Satan proved to be a liar, and God told the truth, because Adam did die just like God said he would.

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The fact that we are not perfect proves that the flesh still has a controlling factor. None of us are living Christ's life as recorded in the N.T.

Yes, the flesh is still there, and will be there until the Second Coming. But study what Paul says in Romans 8: 1-17 and Gal. 2:20. If we are dead in Christ, we will not be responding to the flesh any more than a dead person is able to respond. The secret is to stay dead and let Christ do all the living for us. Maybe too many of us were buried alive and never really died in the first place.

There are many Christians living holy, faithful lives today. I'm sorry you don't know of any. They are abiding in Jesus and walking the same way in which he walked, as 1 John 2: 6 says. Remember that the church is made up of both weeds and wheat at this time, but pray that we may be counted among the wheat when Jesus comes back.

Satan takes your accusing words and flings them in Jesus' face, so please take care that you do not let Satan use you to attack Christ and His church.

August 21, 2006

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Robert said:

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John317 said: Don't forget that to disobey God means death, not because God arbitrarily kills people but because people who hold onto sin cannot possibly survive in His presence.

Pam, pay no attention to this "scare tactic"! This is baloney. Why? As the Bible states, "There is none righteous, no, not even one....There's none good but One, that is, God" and on and on and on.

Please consider the context of the verses quoted here. Do they contradict the Bible teaching that disobedience leads to death? The context of Romans 3:10 has to do with the fact that all people need Jesus Christ because all are sinners. The context of the second verse quoted has to do with God being absolutely good, or perfect. But neither of those verses deal with the issue of the result of sin, or disobedience to God.

All you have to do is study Romans 6: 23 and you see that apart from salvation in Christ, all humanity would die because of disobedience to God. My point is simple: sinners who refuse to take refuge in Christ, and everyone who holds onto his sins and refuses to allow God to clean him up, will perish. (Read Isaiah 1: 18-20, 1 Cor. 6:9-11, and Revelation 22:14, 15.)

August 22, 2006

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Robert said:

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rudywoofs said: <blockquote>Quote:<hr />

Robert said: <blockquote>Quote:<hr />

John317 said: God has even had to "kill", and he will kill again

Here's the god you present:

"I'm God...love me or I'll kill ya!"

uh...isn't that basically what God says when you come right down to it? Obey God or die?

God's law demands perfect, unblemished righteousness. That's the Old Covenant in a nutshell...

Rob

God's law under the New Covenant is exactly the same as under the Old Covenant, and its requirements of perfect obedience has not changed. In other words, the legal basis of both the Old and the New Covenants is still the Ten Commandments. That has not changed one bit. Read Christ's words in Matthew 5: 17-20, that He did not come to abolish the law and that not one iota or dot would change in the law until all is accomplished.

So what changed? Essentially the difference lies in the promises and in who made the promise. Under the Old, the people promised to obey all that God had said (Ex. 19:8). Under the New, God Himself makes the promise. He promises to write the law on our hearts and minds (Hebrew 8 and 10). Also, under the Old, the blood of animals ratified the covenant. Under the New, it was the precious blood of Jesus Christ-- God Himself-- that ratified the covenant.

Study the books of Romans and Galatians for yourself to see how the perfect, righteous requirements of God's moral law are fulfilled. Amazingly they are fulfilled in us as a gift from God when we accept by faith Jesus Christ's death in our place. At that point I exchange my unrighteousness for the perfect righteousness of Christ. See especially Romans 8:1-9; 3: 21-26; and Galatians 3:1-29.

August 22, 2006

Anyone who splits hairs between "murder" and war, condoning the latter while condemning the former and failing to comprehend that the latter is but the former en masse for the most crass and heinous of reasons regardless of what whitewash disguise politicians put on it to pump up the effort, is clearly brainwashed by said politicoes and/or their corrosive ideologies, and thus not to be trusted. <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

We now return you to your regularly scheduled debate, already in progress. <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

August 22, 2006

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John317 said:

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Robert said:

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John317 said: Because sin, which is everything contrary to God's character of love, must have an end; it cannot be allowed to go on endlessly.

Then YOU must die!

"If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves"

Because of Christ's death on calvery and His work in the heavenly sanctuary, God is able to save those who allow God to clean them up. But people who refuse to allow that process to take place and hold onto their sins will be destroyed. That is plainly stated over and over in the Bible.

Wrong! This is salvation by sanctification. This idea perverts the gospel.

August 22, 2006

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John317 said: Will there, then, be some outside the city who at one time accepted Christ and His atonement but, like those in the wilderness of Sinai who died before they reached the promised land for lack of faith and obedience, will be finally rejected by God for the same reason?

Yes! All legalists...and I am not kidding!

August 22, 2006

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John317 said: According to Genesis 5:5, however, Satan proved to be a liar, and God told the truth, because Adam did die just like God said he would.

Wrong! Jesus stepped in and took Adam's death. Adam only died the 1st death...the results of sin not the wages of sin or the 2nd death. Get it right.

Rob

August 22, 2006

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Nicodema said:

Anyone who splits hairs between "murder" and war, condoning the latter while condemning the former and failing to comprehend that the latter is but the former en masse for the most crass and heinous of reasons regardless of what whitewash disguise politicians put on it to pump up the effort, is clearly brainwashed by said politicoes and/or their corrosive ideologies, and thus not to be trusted. <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

We now return you to your regularly scheduled debate, already in progress. <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I was a "conscientious objector" and served as a medic during the Vietnam conflict. I refused to train or carry a weapon. After my discharge, I helped organize anti-war demonstrations.

Yet I believe that there are times when it is appropriate for a nation to wage war, such as the US did in the American Revolutionary War, the war of 1812, the American Civil War, and World War II. Personally, though, even in those wars, I would have served in some capacity that would not have required me to kill. However, I don't judge soldiers who feel it is right for them to take up arms and fight for their country. Soldiers per se are not murderers, and even as an antiwar worker, I never considered them as such.

I would be interested in knowing what you think the US response should have been on December 8, 1941, and afterwards. Aren't there times when a nation is justified in resisting and putting down evil? Are there any times you can think of when war was necessary or is it wrong all the time in your opinion?

August 23, 2006

Re: " . . . clearly brainwashed . . . "

Nico, that is bordering on the personal. You are articulate enough to be able to express your thoughts, focused on the idea, in a manner that does not deal with the person's state of mind.

Actually what such a statement does to to present you in a specific light as being closed to ideas outside of what you have accepted. I do not think that is an accurate picture of you. But, you have set yourself up for such a view of you.

August 23, 2006

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Robert said:

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John317 said:

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Robert said:

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John317 said: Because sin, which is everything contrary to God's character of love, must have an end; it cannot be allowed to go on endlessly.

Then YOU must die!

"If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves"

Please read the last three chapters of Revelation, which describe the end of sin in God's universe.

You will notice there that at the end of the book, sin and sinners are no more. All is harmony once again as it was in the first two chapters of Genesis. God won't have sinners in heaven or on the new earth. They will have allowed God to clean them up (Rev. 7:14; 22; 14) or they will be among those destroyed, as described in Rev. 20:9-15.

Because of Christ's death on calvary and His work in the heavenly sanctuary, God is able to save those who allow God to clean them up. But people who refuse to allow that process to take place and hold onto their sins will be destroyed. That is plainly stated over and over in the Bible.

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Wrong! This is salvation by sanctification. This idea perverts the gospel.

Sanctification means being made holy, or being set apart for God, and is very much a part of the gospel, as the following verses show:

"...God chose you from the beginning to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth. To this he called you through our gopsel, so that you may obtain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ." (2 Thess. 2: 13, 14)

"Now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the return you get is sanctification and its end, eternal life." (Romans 6:22)

"For this is the will of God, your sanctification." (1 Thess. 4:3)

"And every one who thus hopes in him purifies himself as he is pure." (1 John 3:3)

"God made Christ Jesus our righteousness and sanctification and redemption..." (1 Cor. 1:30)

"Jesus also suffered outside the gate in order to sanctify the people through his own blood." (Hebrews 13:12)

We are sanctified by faith in Christ. (Acts 26:18)

Jesus prayed, "Sanctify them by your truth; your word is truth." (John 17:17)

Please also read 2 Tim. 2: 19, 21; 2 Peter 1: 3-11.

August 23, 2006

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Robert said:

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John317 said: Will there, then, be some outside the city who at one time accepted Christ and His atonement but, like those in the wilderness of Sinai who died before they reached the promised land for lack of faith and obedience, will be finally rejected by God for the same reason?

Yes! All legalists...and I am not kidding!

Yes, all those who refuse to obey the truth-- Romans 2:8; who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ-- 2 Thess. 1:8.

Many forget that Jesus "having been perfected became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him." Heb. 5: 9.

That is not legalism. That is Bible truth. Legalism is obeying in order to earn one's salvation.

But God is looking for obedience that springs from faith-- or the obedience of faith-- and that is exactly what the gospel was designed to produce. Romans 1: 5 and 16: 26.

August 23, 2006

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Robert said:

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John317 said: According to Genesis 5:5, however, Satan proved to be a liar, and God told the truth, because Adam did die just like God said he would.

Wrong! Jesus stepped in and took Adam's death. Adam only died the 1st death...the results of sin not the wages of sin or the 2nd death. Get it right.

Rob

Yes, you are right that the lovely Jesus did step in and offer His life a ransom. But my point was that God did tell the truth about death and Satan did clearly lie when he said they would not die if they disobeyed God.

Whether the death he died was only the first or whether it was the second death has nothing whatever to do with Genesis 5:5. The fact is that people died and Satan had said they wouldn't. There's nothing at that point about a first or second death. All that would come much, much later on.

Apart from the Messiah's life and death, all humanity would certainly have faced a death without end. That proves that death is the natural result of sin, because it causes separation from the life-giver. The Bible plainly says that sin cannot stand in the presence of God. God is too holy. That is why God came to live among us as a man. If he had come in his glory no man would have been able to survive. Think of the brightness of even a single angel and what that did to people. Then think of the greater glory of God and what that would have meant for sinful human beings. Check out Exodus 19.

August 24, 2006

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John317 said: Whether the death he died was only the first or whether it was the second death has nothing whatever to do with Genesis 5:5.

Let's use some common sense, okay?

Gen 2:16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, “You may freely eat of every tree of the garden; 17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall die.”

Q: What was to be the cause of death?

A: Disobedience to a command!

Now go to Gal 3:10

For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed be every one who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, and do them.”....13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed be every one who hangs on a tree”

The "curse of the law" is the 2nd death because one has failed to keep all the commands written in "the book of the law" (the first, five book of the O.T.).

Adam did not die the 2nd death because Christ took his place. In other words Adam didn't die the "wages of sin" death!!!!

Again, try to get it right.

Rob

August 24, 2006

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John317 said: Sanctification means being made holy, or being set apart for God, and is very much a part of the gospel, as the following verses show

No! The gospel is not what Christ did 2000 years ago PLUS what He does in you! That is legalism....

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"Now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the return you get is sanctification and its end, eternal life." (Romans 6:22)

Out of context. The "you have been set free from sin" refers to your position "in Christ":

Rom 6:6 For we know that our old self [our old life] was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin— 7 because anyone who has died has been freed from sin.

Our old life died "in Christ"....It was crucified "in Him". Romans 7:4 says the same:

"You also died to the law [it demanded your death] in the body of Christ"

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"For this is the will of God, your sanctification." (1 Thess. 4:3)

Sure...God wants us to grow, but the law requires perfection!!! This you cannot attain according to 1 John 1:8 and many other verses. Hence Paul is right:

Rom 3:28 For we hold that a man is justified by faith apart from works of law.

August 24, 2006

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John317 said: Many forget that Jesus "having been perfected became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him." Heb. 5:9

Obey Him or obey rules?

Obeying rules is legalism. Obeying the gospel is different.

Turn to Romans 6:6

"...our old self was crucified with Him, that our body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin; 7 for he who has died is freed from sin."

Notice that "in Christ's" holy history our humanity died "in Him". Hence "in Him" we have been literally freed from sin because Christ took to heaven a glorified, sinless humanity Sunday morning. That's the gospel. When received by faith it becomes "justification by faith".

Now what does it mean to obey the gospel. Ah, it means to "consider" yourself to be dead to sin and alive to God.

Verse 11" "consider [or reckon] yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus. 12 Therefore do not let sin reign [fully control you] in your mortal body that you should obey its lusts...."

It's not talking of perfection...it's talking about experiencing what is already true of you "in Christ". So obeying the gospel is obeying a truth - your death "in Christ".

Rob

August 24, 2006

Jack Sequeira:

Now what does it mean “to obey the gospel”? What does it mean? Is it doing something? No. Obeying the gospel is surrendering yourself or your will to the truth as it is in Christ.

God comes to you through the gospel and says, “In my Son, you have died...."

Obeying the gospel is saying, “God, I accept the death of Christ as my death.” THAT is obeying the gospel!

August 24, 2006

Anyway, we are off the subject! Does God kill? No...God doesn't sin!

August 24, 2006

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John317 said: Aren't there times when a nation is justified in resisting and putting down evil? Are there any times you can think of when war was necessary or is it wrong all the time in your opinion?

I'm sure the guy who blows away the doctor who just performed an abortion of a healthy baby views that deed as evil and therefore justifies his use of lethal force. Evil is evil....

Rob

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