does God condone killing?

September 2, 2006

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Robert said:

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John317 said: God has absolute freedom to show grace and mercy to anyone He chooses to.

Nope! God loves "all men" unconditionally! Read your Bible, but then again you have God breaking His own law once again by making Him partial. The reason that He will not take all men to heaven is because "some" will tell Him to get lost and that His gift is not needed.

It's not a matter of whether God's loves people.

God does love people unconditionally, but there are conditions to salvation. Read about several of them in John 3: 3-5; Romans 10:9; and Romans 2: 7,8.

As for whether God has freedom to show mercy to some and not to show it to others, please read Romans 9:10-24. Paul quotes Exodus 33:19: "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." So it depends not upon man's will or exertion, but upon God's mercy...So then he has mercy upon whomever he will, and he hardens the heart of whomever he wills...What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience that vessels of wrath made for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for the vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory, even us whom he has called...?

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God is not obligated to save anyone

God, who is love, can do no other. It is in His nature. However, He is not obligated to save those who think they can earn heaven. It is a free gift.

God's love does not mean He is not free to choose what He wills. God is not held a prisoner by his love, as if His love forces Him to do certain things.

You are right that salvation is a free gift, yet the Bible makes it plain that there are conditions to salvation: John 3:3-5; Romans 10:9; and Romans 2: 7,8.

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God "lives up to", and cannot contradict, His law of love

Good, then He cannot kill. Why? Now read carefully:

1] God is love.

2] Love is the fulfillment of the law

Therefore, "God is the fulfillment of the law"

And since love does not kill/murder, then God cannot kill!

Rob

There are two sides to God's righteousness: on one side is justice and on the other is love and mercy. Both sides require the death of the Satan and all the rest of the wicked. His love will not permit sin and evil to continue endlessly, nor will it force the wicked to live in heaven, where they would be miserable. God's righteousness and justice requires that the wicked finally reap the consequences of their sins. That is the reason for the Great White Throne Judgment and why the wicked are consumed by the fire that comes down from God out of heaven. Rev 20:7-15.

The Bible records times when God did take human life-- (the flood; Sodom and Gomorrah; the slaying of the first-born of Egypt-Ex. 12:29)-- and the fact is that the Bible says plainly that God finally will destroy the wicked at the end of the 1000 years.

Does this mean God is not love? Of course not. God would not be love if He did not punish the wicked. It was His love and His righteousness that resulted in the death of His Son. This fact itself proves that God's love must result in the destruction of those who refuse to accept Christ's sacrifice and are still following Satan at the time Christ returns. (See 1 Cor. 6: 9-11; 2 Thess. 1:8 to 2:11; Hebrrew 9: 27, 28; 2 Peter 2: 4-22; 3: 11-17; Jude 14, 16; Rev. 20; 21: 8; 22:14, 15.)

September 2, 2006

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Robert said:

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Robert said:

"Woe to them when I [God] depart from them!" (Hosea 9:12).

Is there an example of the above in the NT?

Matt 23:37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. 38 [:"red"] Look, your house is left to you desolate.[/] [see also Matthew 24:2]

Clearly this is a love that protects! Nevertheless many of the Jews were "unwilling" - they rejected Jesus. What was the result?

During the summer of 70, the Romans breached the walls of Jerusalem, and initiated an orgy of violence and destruction. Shortly thereafter, they destroyed the Second Temple. This was the final and most devastating Roman blow against Judea.

It is estimated that as many as one million Jews died in the Great Revolt against Rome. When people today speak of the almost two-thousand-year span of Jewish homelessness and exile, they are dating it from the failure of the revolt and the destruction of the Temple. [source: Joseph Telushkin. Jewish Literacy]

Did God did destroy them? No, they destroyed themselves. Could God have stopped it? Sure. Then why didn't He? Choice...freewill!

People always have freewill. Er and Onan had freewill and both decided to do evil. But the Bible also says God had the free will to slay them, which He did. (Gen. 38: 7,10) People had the freewill to enter or stay out of the ark. Almost everyone stayed out and they paid with their lives when God sent the flood. At the end, it will be shown that the wicked had freewill to accept or reject what is right, and almost the whole world will be destroyed because they chose to reject Christ. The fact that they have freewill does not mean that God does not destroy them. God could perform a miracle and keep them alive indefinitely, but instead God chooses to destroy them with fire. (Rev. 20 9, 15) The wicked are punished according to their sins. Read Great Controversy, page 673. Some sinners "are destroyed in a moment," whereas others "suffer many days." It is only fitting that Satan, who is the father of sin, should go on suffering after everyone else has been destroyed. Yet even Satan will finally be as if he had never been, praise God.

"The great controversy is ended. Sin and sinners are no more..."

September 2, 2006

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John317 said: As for whether God has freedom to show mercy to some and not to show it to others, please read Romans 9:10-24.

You need to look at the context:

Romans 9:6 "...not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, 7 and not all are children of Abraham because they are his descendants; but “Through Isaac shall your descendants be named.” 8 This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God [the literal descendents of Abraham], but the children of the promise are reckoned as descendants....27 And Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: “Though the number of the sons of Israel be as the sand of the sea, only a remnant of them will be saved...."

The Jews claimed heaven in two ways:

1] Their law keeping

and

2] Their relationship to Abraham.

God says, "No" - "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy".... Why?

There's only one way to heaven and that is by Christ's righteousness. God is not obligated to give legalists a ticket to heaven. That's what Paul is saying!

September 2, 2006

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Robert said: 8 This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God [the literal descendents of Abraham], but the children of the promise are reckoned as descendants.

Promise?

Gal 3:18 For if the inheritance [heaven] is based on law, it is no longer based on a promise; but God has granted it to Abraham by means of a promise.

September 2, 2006

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John317 said: The wicked are punished according to their sins. Read Great Controversy, page 673. Some sinners "are destroyed in a moment," whereas others "suffer many days." It is only fitting that Satan, who is the father of sin, should go on suffering after everyone else has been destroyed. Yet even Satan will finally be as if he had never been, praise God.

Better yet:

"I saw that some were quickly destroyed, while others suffered longer. They were punished according to the deeds done in the body. Some were many days consuming, and just as long as there was a portion of them unconsumed, all the sense of suffering remained. Said the angel, 'The worm of life shall not die; their fire shall not be quenched as long as there is the least particle for it to prey upon.'" [EW 294]

First of all EGW is not infallible. Second of all this view was in her early days before she understood the gospel and the love God in greater detail.

Now let's analyze this:

"They were punished according to the deeds done in the body"

Why punishment? If you send your kid to his room because he misbehaved you are hoping that he will learn from his mistake, right? Then why would God, who is love, punish the wicked when there's no change? Why torture someone?

"as long as there was a portion of them unconsumed, all the sense of suffering remained"

Let's say I don't make it. So there I am and God smites me with hell-fire. I've been cooking for about 2 weeks and there's only my thumb left and yet somehow I can still feel the pain?

Do you realize the type of God you are portraying here? Hitler had more compassion than the god you present!

Rob

September 2, 2006

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Robert said:

"So the anger of the Lord was aroused against them, and He departed. And when the cloud departed from above the tabernacle, suddenly Miriam became leprous, as white as snow (Numbers 12:9, 10)."

Notice that He departed. Only then did Miriam appear leprous.

Ok, but how about Numbers 11:1? There is nothing about God departing, yet it says "the fire of the Lord burned among them, and consumed some outlying parts of the camp." Again how about Numbers 11: 33? It says, "... the anger of the Lord was kindled against the people, and the Lord smote the people with a very great plague." Where does it say the Lord departed in those verses? Read also Number 14: 37, where it says that "the men who brought up an evil report of the land, died by plague before the Lord." Numbers 16: 31 says plainly that God opened the earth so it swallowed up Korah, Dathan, Abiram, and everyone in their households and all the men that belonged to them. It says nothing about God's departing first before that happened.

Now please read Number 16: 35, "And fire came forth from the Lord, and consumed the two hundred and fifty men offering the incense."

Again, Leviticus 10: 2-- "And fire came forth from the presence of the Lord and devoured them [Nadab and Abihu], and they died before the Lord."

What do you think of all the times when God directly told people to kill other people? See, for instance, Numbers 21:34, 35; 23: 3-5; 31: 1-24.

Well, if you need more evidence on this, please let me know, and I will be happy to provide it. I would like to read how you explain these verses. Please deal with them individually and directly.

September 2, 2006

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Well, if you need more evidence on this, please let me know, and I will be happy to provide it. I would like to read how you explain these verses. Please deal with them individually and directly.

God's method of dealing with persist unbelief is true for all cases. Scripture does not always go into the details every time. You must learn "the truth" from the clear references. The clearest is the cross:

Is 53:4 "we considered him [Jesus] stricken by God,

smitten by him, and afflicted."

From man's point of view Jesus was "stricken, smitten and afflicted" by God. But in reality God didn’t kill Jesus!

September 2, 2006

Numbers 31:17 “Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known man intimately. 18 “But all the girls who have not known man intimately, spare for yourselves." <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Wow....What a Holy God! Kill the "little ones", but save the virgins for yourselves! Sick...real, real sick!!!

The OT Jews were legalists. They lived under the Old Covenant of an eye for eye a tooth for a tooth. Much of the OT is history. One doesn't have to read the OT very long to realize their concepts of God were off the mark. Personally I believe they prescribed things to God that God didn't say. They made a god in their own image after their likeness.

John 16:2 A time is coming when anyone who kills you will think he is offering a service to God.

Why?

3 They will do such things because [:"red"]they have not known the Father or me.[/]

Did the Jews of the OT and many in the NT know God? NO! They rejected Jesus because He did not fit their preconceived ideas of a fire-breathing God. Hence much of the OT has this bias.

Rob

September 3, 2006

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Robert said: Let's say I don't make it. So there I am and God smites me with hell-fire. I've been cooking for about 2 weeks and there's only my thumb left and yet somehow I can still feel the pain?

Do you realize the type of God you are portraying here? Hitler had more compassion than the god you present!

Rob

YES????

September 3, 2006

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Robert said:

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John317 said: The wicked are punished according to their sins. Read Great Controversy, page 673. Some sinners "are destroyed in a moment," whereas others "suffer many days." It is only fitting that Satan, who is the father of sin, should go on suffering after everyone else has been destroyed. Yet even Satan will finally be as if he had never been, praise God.

Better yet:

"I saw that some were quickly destroyed, while others suffered longer. They were punished according to the deeds done in the body. Some were many days consuming, and just as long as there was a portion of them unconsumed, all the sense of suffering remained. Said the angel, 'The worm of life shall not die; their fire shall not be quenched as long as there is the least particle for it to prey upon.'" [EW 294]

First of all EGW is not infallible. Second of all this view was in her early days before she understood the gospel and the love God in greater detail.

You are in error to say this was a view in "her early days before she understood the gospel." The Great Controversy was published in 1888 and then she worked on it again in 1911, four years before her death. That hardly makes them her early views. At the end of her life Ellen White said the Great Controversy was her most important book.

Ellen White said that God showed her these things in vision and that the Holy Spirit helped her to write them out.

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Now let's analyze this:

"They were punished according to the deeds done in the body"

Why punishment?

I wonder if you realize the Bible itself says the wicked are punished because of the sins done in the body? 2 Cor 5:10; 2 Peter 2: 9, 10; Hebrew 10:29; Matt 25: 46; 2 Thess. 1:8. You will notice that the Bible teaches the wicked deserve punishment and that Jesus said plainly that the wicked would go into punishment. It seems to me your argument is not with me but with the Bible. May I suggest we try to conform our thinking and our views to the Bible and not the other way around. Otherwise we will go on thinking our own fanciful thoughts and make God out to be what we want Him to be rather than as the Bible portrays Him.

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If you send your kid to his room because he misbehaved you are hoping that he will learn from his mistake, right? Then why would God, who is love, punish the wicked when there's no change? Why torture someone?

"as long as there was a portion of them unconsumed, all the sense of suffering remained"

Let's say I don't make it. So there I am and God smites me with hell-fire. I've been cooking for about 2 weeks and there's only my thumb left and yet somehow I can still feel the pain?

Do you realize the type of God you are portraying here? Hitler had more compassion than the god you present!

Rob

Again, I am only quoting God's word and the words of God's prophet to the Adventist people. Please deal directly and specifically with the many quotes I've given that show clear examples of God's either taking human life or telling others to do so. Instead of rejecting God's word about these things, you would be better off trying to understand them and accepting God's will. Whatever God does is right. Instead of trying to make God out to be of our making, we need to make our views of God conform to what the Bible teaches. We need to do thorough, inductive-- NOT deductive-- study of His word, and then ask the Holy Spirit to help us understand and submit to God's will.

September 3, 2006

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Robert said:

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John317 said: The wicked are punished according to their sins. Read Great Controversy, page 673. Some sinners "are destroyed in a moment," whereas others "suffer many days." It is only fitting that Satan, who is the father of sin, should go on suffering after everyone else has been destroyed. Yet even Satan will finally be as if he had never been, praise God.

Better yet:

"I saw that some were quickly destroyed, while others suffered longer. They were punished according to the deeds done in the body. Some were many days consuming, and just as long as there was a portion of them unconsumed, all the sense of suffering remained. Said the angel, 'The worm of life shall not die; their fire shall not be quenched as long as there is the least particle for it to prey upon.'" [EW 294]

...

Rob

Please notice that Ellen White is quoting an angel of God. If the angel did not say that, then Ellen White was either insane or a liar or at the very least undependable. Either way, if the angel did not say what Ellen White says, Mrs. White would prove that she cannot be trusted. It does not really matter how young she was or what she beleived at the time. She is, after all, quoting an angel. Notice the quotation marks. It means that the angel spoke those words.

It doesn't make any sense for someone to say that these were only her early views because she repeated these same views in the Great Controversy which she wrote toward the end of her life. Saying so would only demonstrate a person's lack of knowledge or his poor reasoning or perhaps both. Don't you agree?

September 3, 2006

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John317 said:

Some sinners "are destroyed in a moment," whereas others "suffer many days." It is only fitting that Satan, who is the father of sin, should go on suffering after everyone else has been destroyed. Yet even Satan will finally be as if he had never been, praise God.

"The great controversy is ended. Sin and sinners are no more..."

First let me assure you, John317, I'm fully in agreement with you that when the bible says that God spoke and did certain things, such as killing people, it (the Holy Bible)

speaks the truth, without some mysterious hidden meaning known only to a few priviledged, that means something other than what is actually said.

However I would like to interject another thought about the final disposition of those who will at last be eliminated from among the living. This, of course, is only giving opinion and is wide open to correction, but I would like to present it as a possibility based on the mercy and compassion of a Father Who never wished any of His children to have to go through a final disposition of eternal annihilation.

Take , for instance this thought as written above; " [:"purple"] It is only fitting that Satan, who is the father of sin, should go on suffering after everyone else has been destroyed." [/]

I believe that statement to be true, with the knowledge that even when God reveals His wrath without mercy, it is still not like Him (His character, Love) to perform such a deed.

[:"red"] "For Jehovah will rise up as in mount Perazim, he will be wroth as in the valley of Gibeon; that he may do his work, his strange work, and bring to pass his act, his strange act." [/] Isaiah 28:21 ASV

If our Father had for the life of this fallen planet of misfits, been busy about the destruction of His created beings, then it would not be a strange act to Him, but just another necessary duty to clear the world of those who destroy the earth and its' inhabitants.

[:"red"] "...and thy wrath came,...to destroy them that destroy the earth." [/] Revelation 11:18 ASV

Therefore, could it not be true that the reason the most wicked will receive longer periods of suffering, would be because the earlier gifts that had been given by God to them, enabled them for a time, to defeat God's purposes for which they had for aeons of time so adroitly strove.

Our Father, knowing the end from the beginning, was aware from the first that the gifts He had given would be used to defeat His very effort to save all in His kingdom.

The freewill given to every soul upon creation, could then be plainly seen, that no matter how long a time elapsed nor how much of the bounties of heaven were bestowed, those that would use them to defeat the purposes of God, would never change their mind but would forever to the nth degree, use them against an all merciful God and the subjects that remained loyal to His wishes.

This, my friend, reveals at one and the same time, the mystery of iniquity and the mystery of Godliness.

[:"red"] "He that is unrighteous, let him do unrighteousness still: and he that is filthy, let him be made filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him do righteousness still: and he that is holy, let him be made holy still." [/] Revelation 22:11 ASV

Keep the faith!!

September 3, 2006

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Robert said:

Here's some more from the book, "Light on the Dark Side of God":

Despite the seemingly clear way in which Scripture presents Him, the traditional view of Christianity's God is heavy with ethical problems that have puzzled reasonable men and women from time immemorial. As long as humans have reasoned on the subject of God, they have wondered about His destructive side. Noah's flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, eternal hell fire. . . .

This is not the "traditional view of Christianity's God" but what the Bible actually says. The problem is not with the Bible but with people who choose to reject what the Bible says and form a picture of God as they prefer Him to be. First one has to accept what the Bible says; then one must try to understand it. But if a person keeps rejecting what the Bible says, he cannot hope to understand the Bible's picture of God.

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How can a God who punishes so cruelly also say: "I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn, turn from your evil ways! For why should you die?" "How can I give you up, Ephraim? How can I hand you over, Israel? . . . My heart churns within Me; My sympathy is stirred." "My heart sobs like a flute for Moab, sobs like a flute for the men of Kirheres; that accumulated treasure all lost" (Ezekiel 33:11; Hosea 11:8; Jeremiah 48:36, JB). Would not humans manifesting this personality split be considered psychotic?

How can God exercise such "cruel and unusual" punishment as drowning the world, burning cities and the humans in them, and still be considered loving and just, as He and His adherents claim? He extended Himself to the lengths of Calvary to preserve our freedom of choice. But is choice really free, with God standing over us to destroy us if we choose wrong? After enduring the cross to redeem humanity, thus showing His loving character before the universe, why does He, in the end, reverse it all by executing those whose choices He does not like?

How can a God who kills command His people not to kill; and yet to be like Him? How does the mild and gentle Jesus reflect the character of the "fire-breathing" Old Testament God He came to reveal? Perhaps nothing has contributed more to the advancement of atheism than these perplexing unanswered questions of Christianity.

The Bible shows a simple answer to these objections: God has had to take drastic measures, at the risk of being misunderstood, because of the emergency period we are in due to the rebellion in His universe. Of course God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked. He took no pleasure in the exile of Lucifer and 1/3 of the fallen angels. He took no pleasure in the death of His beloved Son. Yet those things happened. Why? Because of sin. And finally He will destroy the wicked after they are resurrected. Why? Because He gives them an opportunity to show their true characters and to prove His righteousness and justice.

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The 19th century skeptic, Robert G. Ingersoll, spoke for multitudes through the ages, when he addressed the idea of an eternally burning hell in these words: "Infinite punishment is infinite cruelty, endless injustice, immortal meanness. . . .

Ingersoll, as an unbeliever and rejecter of God and of His word, had no understanding of the Bible. Yet he was right to reject an endless burning in hell. Adventists don't teach an endless burning in hell. Satan and his followers will finally be no more. It's unfortunate that Ingersoll did not study the book Great Controversy.

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"Christians have placed upon the throne of the universe a God of eternal hate. I cannot worship a being whose vengeance is boundless, whose cruelty shoreless, and whose malice is increased by the agonies he inflicts." [M.M. Campbell]

Neither the Bible nor Ellen White place a God of hate on the throne of the universe. Satan wants people to view God in that light. He tries to get people to see God as having his own evil character. Everyone will finally worship God and declare His justice and righteousness. Only question is, when will we do it,--now or at the end of the 1000 years?

There is no disharmony between the God of the Old Testament and the God of the New. But that has not stopped many throughout history from seeing a contradiction. This caused some of the gnostics to reject the entire Old Testament and to think that the Yahweh of the Old Testament was an evil god. They did not realize that Jesus Christ is Yahweh and that it was He who declared the law from Sinai and who led the children of Israel in the cloud.

Check out 1 Cor. 10: 9 in the New Revised Standard Version and KJV. The majority text, as well as the oldest Greek manuscript of the 2nd century containing that verse, reads Christ. It was Christ whom the people tempted in the desert and died from snake bites if they did not look in faith upon the pole that Moses lifted up. (cf. 1 Cor. 10:4)

September 3, 2006

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LifeHiscost said: