does God condone killing?

August 24, 2006

When the uber universe was perfect and sinless there was perfect harmony.

It was wonderful from what I heard.

Sooooo... lucifer questions everything and eventually committed the unpardonable sin the consequence was death.

but it didnt happen right away( it will)

Now of course if the consequence of sin is death who or what will carry it out?

I will let everyone answer that question themselves

now..

I hope everyone understands that much.

August 24, 2006

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Gay4JESUS said:who or what will carry it out?

God will, in the end, abandon Satan and those who reject their need of Christ's righteousness. This is consistent with God's non-coercive love.

Sin has caused this world to be in chaos and if it wasn’t for God’s sustaining power this world would have fallen apart many years ago.

August 24, 2006

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Robert said:

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John317 said: Aren't there times when a nation is justified in resisting and putting down evil? Are there any times you can think of when war was necessary or is it wrong all the time in your opinion?

I'm sure the guy who blows away the doctor who just performed an abortion of a healthy baby views that deed as evil and therefore justifies his use of lethal force. Evil is evil....

I'm inclined to agree with Rob here. The confusion begins in childhood, where we have "superheroes" who beat up the bad guys. What makes the bad guys the "bad guys?" They are "bad guys" because they hurt other people. The solution? Surprise, hurting them back, which supposedly is right because it stops them from being able to do more hurting to others.

But if you beat someone up to stop them from beating up someone else, where does it end? Are you not now the new "bad guy" who needs to be stopped? And so forth and so on. What makes one person "good guy" and another "bad guy" unless it is defined by their behaviors? And if it is defined by their behaviors -- if the reason a "bad guy" is bad is because he hurts and kills people -- then by definition if you hurt and/or kill him, you are being a "bad guy" yourself!

On the other hand if it is NOT defined by behaviors, then the entire system is totally arbitrary and untrustworthy -- and in fact what we see in the world today is absolute proof that this is the case. We see governments and people in power because they are the ones who have more money and bigger guns (to put it simplistically), so they make laws that say only THEY are allowed to take money from others "legally", only THEY are allowed to "legally" own and operate major weapons, etc. etc. and they create a system where these "privileges" are only extended to those who support keeping THEM on the top of the heap and in power. They lie, cheat, steal, harm and kill on a daily basis, from the vindictive aging "queen bee" type taking someone's kids away because their lifestyle is "different" from what SHE considers "the norm" to the petty cop abusing the "use of force" clause to the corrupt politician taking bribes and mishandling justice to the government pretending to its people that "we" are the "good guys" so we can go and "beat up" on a major scale some other nation who tells its people THEY are the "good guys" because they are not like us ... the whole freaking thing is arbitrary, pointless, stupid, and insane. The lunatics are running the asylum on this planet and everyone just guffaws and pops open another beer in front of the telly and pats others on the head telling them this is how things are, this is how things have always been, relax and be thankful you have food on the table, or whatever.

It's all a crock of lies.

As far as I can tell, Jesus is the only shining example of absolute consistency in the pack, and HE said not to kill, but to turn the other cheek and to LOVE your enemies (NOT destroy them).

He's also the only one who went to the grave and lived to tell the tale!

So you tell me where I should cast my lot in -- with Him or with human beings and their pack of lies and arbitrary "things as they are and always have been" nonsense????

August 24, 2006

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Gay4JESUS said:

Now of course if the consequence of sin is death who or what will carry it out?

I will let everyone answer that question themselves...

The wages of sin IS death. BUT ... the GIFT of God is eternal life, through Jesus Christ our Lord.

We are the only ones who put conditions on that free gift -- who can have it, who WE will say has it, what we must do to have it (last I checked you didn't have to do ANYTHING to have someone ELSE GIVE you a gift -- they did so when THEY pleased).

We are so so so far from the kingdom it's not even funny. Good grief we can barely imagine Christ washing the feet of Judas, let alone Hitler, Bin Laden, or Satan.

We are so very far from the kingdom with all that.

August 24, 2006

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We are so so so far from the kingdom it's not even funny. Good grief we can barely imagine Christ washing the feet of Judas, let alone Hitler, Bin Laden, or Satan.

We are so very far from the kingdom with all that.

Let's think about that for a minute. It is true that Jesus washed the feet of Judas. He did so as a restorative measure because there still was a chance that he might change his mind and come to Him and be saved.

But the Bible is very clear that there is coming a time when those who have rejected him, especially Satan and his angels, will receive punishment, not another chance. Judas in a few hours from the foot washing time, was fixed in his decision and beyond reach.

August 24, 2006

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Robert said:

Anyway, we are off the subject! Does God kill? No...God doesn't sin!

If by "condone" we mean to ask whether God has killed or commanded that people kill, I can only reply that God has indeed condoned killing, for that is clearly what the Bible teaches.

I deny, however, that this means God sins. Please refer to previous posts where I discussed this issue.

Let the following 7 examples suffice as proof that God has not only condoned killing but has Himself killed people and ordered people to kill others, and will destroy the wicked:

1) Genesis 6:13-- "God said to Noah, 'I am going to put an end to all the people...'" (Read chapter 7 of Genesis for the record of what happened. Also read 2 Peter 2: 5 where it says the flood is an example of the coming day of judgment.)

2) Genesis 19: 24, 29-- ""Then the Lord rained on Sodom and Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the Lord out of heaven..." "...so it was that..God destroyed the cities of the valley...He overthrew the cities..." (See 2 Peter 2:6 and Jude 7, where we are told that God's turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to ashes is an example of the future punishment and destruction of the wicked.)

3) Exodus 21: 14-17-- But if a man willfully attacks another to kill him treacherously, you shall take him from my altar, that he may die. Whoever strikes his father or his mother shall be put to death. Whoever steals a man, whether he sells him or is found in possession of him, shall be put to death. Whoever curses his father or his mother shall be put to death.

4) Numbers 25:4-- And the Lord said to Moses, "Take all the chiefs of the people, and hang them in the sun before the Lord, that the fierce anger of the Lord may turn away from Israel." (Now read Numbers 25: 6-13 where the record is that God blessed Phinehas and his descendants because Phinehas killed a very wicked man.)

5) Joshua 8: 1,2-- And the Lord said to Joshua, "Do not fear or be dismayed; take all the fighting men with you, and arise, go up to Ai; see, I have given into your hand the king of Ai, and is people, his city, and his land; and you shall do to Ai and its king as you did to Jericho and its king..." (Read Joshua 6: 21, 24 where you will find exactly what they had done to Jericho, killing every living thing in the city and burning it with fire. Only a fool could misunderstand what God commanded them to do to Ai.)

6) 2 Thess. 1: 7-10-- ...when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance upon those who do not know God and upon those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They shall suffer the punishment of eternal destruction and exclusion from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might, when he comes on that day to be glorified in his saints, and to be marveled at in all who have believed...

7) Revelation 20: 9, 15-- And they marched up over the broad earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city; but fire came down from heaven and consumed them...and if any one's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. ( It is noteworthy that the Majority Text reads, "out of heaven from God.")

August 24, 2006

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Robert said:

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John317 said: Aren't there times when a nation is justified in resisting and putting down evil? Are there any times you can think of when war was necessary or is it wrong all the time in your opinion?

I'm sure the guy who blows away the doctor who just performed an abortion of a healthy baby views that deed as evil and therefore justifies his use of lethal force. Evil is evil....

Rob

Is it evil for someone to defend himself against someone trying to kill him?

Two instances:

If somone had a knife to your mother's or wife's stomach and said he was going to stab her, would it be evil to defend them? Or would it be evil to do nothing?

If you were head of a country, and your country was attacked, say, like Poland was by Nazi Germany, what would you have done, or what do you think should be done in response to a similar situation? Doesn't the head of a nation have an obliation to defend the citizens of his country?

August 24, 2006

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Gail said:

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We are so so so far from the kingdom it's not even funny. Good grief we can barely imagine Christ washing the feet of Judas, let alone Hitler, Bin Laden, or Satan.

We are so very far from the kingdom with all that.

Let's think about that for a minute. It is true that Jesus washed the feet of Judas. He did so as a restorative measure because there still was a chance that he might change his mind and come to Him and be saved.

But the Bible is very clear that there is coming a time when those who have rejected him, especially Satan and his angels, will receive punishment, not another chance. Judas in a few hours from the foot washing time, was fixed in his decision and beyond reach.

Very true-- the time is coming when Jesus will arise (Daniel 12:1) and take off his High Priestly garments and replace them with His kingly garments. At that time Jesus will have ceased to mediate for sinners and will be coming back to reward the faithful righteous and destroy the wicked. (Please compare Jesus' present work in Hebrews 4:14-16 and His future role as King, which is described in Revelation 19: 11-21 Jude 14, 15; and Hebrews 9:28.)

August 25, 2006

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Robert said:

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Gay4JESUS said:who or what will carry it out?

God will, in the end, abandon Satan and those who reject their need of Christ's righteousness. This is consistent with God's non-coercive love.

Sin has caused this world to be in chaos and if it wasn’t for God’s sustaining power this world would have fallen apart many years ago.

The wrath of God as mentioned in Romans 1:18 is God's giving people up to their own sinful desires and to the consequences of their choices. See, for instance, Romans 1: 24: "Therefore God gave them up..."; verse 26: "...God gave them up..."; and verse 28: "...God gave them up...".

Such language is also used by the OT prophets, especially by Hosea, as in Hosea 4:17. There have been times when God's anger meant that God would take action in order to try bring about somone's ultimate salvation and healing, as He often did in his "judgements" against Israel and Judah.

However, the time is coming when God's wrath will not mean salvation and healing to the finally impentanent but will mean their eternal sepration from God, or annihilation. It will also mean punishment, or suffering, before they pass out of existence. It is not something God will take delight in, nor will the righteous. But it is something that must happen if the universe is to be cleansed of sin and sinners and the earth made all over new again. God will not allow sin and rebellion to continue indefinitely but will bring it to a final conclusion. Then the whole universe and those who want to be in God's kingdom will be forever safe and secure. Anyone can be there who truly wants to be.

August 25, 2006

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Nicodema said:

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Robert said:

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John317 said: Aren't there times when a nation is justified in resisting and putting down evil? Are there any times you can think of when war was necessary or is it wrong all the time in your opinion?

I'm sure the guy who blows away the doctor who just performed an abortion of a healthy baby views that deed as evil and therefore justifies his use of lethal force. Evil is evil....

I'm inclined to agree with Rob here. The confusion begins in childhood, where we have "superheroes" who beat up the bad guys. What makes the bad guys the "bad guys?" They are "bad guys" because they hurt other people. The solution? Surprise, hurting them back, which supposedly is right because it stops them from being able to do more hurting to others.

But if you beat someone up to stop them from beating up someone else, where does it end?

So if someone is beating you up, you don't want anyone to stop it? And if you don't want to keep getting beat up, how is the person to be stopped from beating you? You expect it to stop just by asking the thug to please stop?

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Are you not now the new "bad guy" who needs to be stopped?

<hr /></blockquote> No, I expect if I stopped someone from beating you within an inch of your life, that you would thank me. Or not?

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And so forth and so on. What makes one person "good guy" and another "bad guy" unless it is defined by their behaviors? And if it is defined by their behaviors -- if the reason a "bad guy" is bad is because he hurts and kills people -- then by definition if you hurt and/or kill him, you are being a "bad guy" yourself!

Not according to the Bible. Maybe the Bible has nothing to do with any of this, though. Maybe reality has nothing to do with it either. But if it does, please consult Romans 13: 1-7 and 1 Peter 2: 13-17.

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On the other hand if it is NOT defined by behaviors, then the entire system is totally arbitrary and untrustworthy -- and in fact what we see in the world today is absolute proof that this is the case. We see governments and people in power because they are the ones who have more money and bigger guns (to put it simplistically), so they make laws that say only THEY are allowed to take money from others "legally", only THEY are allowed to "legally" own and operate major weapons, etc. etc. and they create a system where these "privileges" are only extended to those who support keeping THEM on the top of the heap and in power. They lie, cheat, steal, harm and kill on a daily basis, from the vindictive aging "queen bee" type taking someone's kids away because their lifestyle is "different" from what SHE considers "the norm" to the petty cop abusing the "use of force" clause to the corrupt politician taking bribes and mishandling justice to the government pretending to its people that "we" are the "good guys" so we can go and "beat up" on a major scale some other nation who tells its people THEY are the "good guys" because they are not like us ... the whole freaking thing is arbitrary, pointless, stupid, and insane. The lunatics are running the asylum on this planet and everyone just guffaws and pops open another beer in front of the telly and pats others on the head telling them this is how things are, this is how things have always been, relax and be thankful you have food on the table, or whatever.

It's all a crock of lies.

As far as I can tell, Jesus is the only shining example of absolute consistency in the pack, and HE said not to kill, but to turn the other cheek and to LOVE your enemies (NOT destroy them).

He's also the only one who went to the grave and lived to tell the tale!

So you tell me where I should cast my lot in -- with Him or with human beings and their pack of lies and arbitrary "things as they are and always have been" nonsense????

It might help to study what the Bible says about this: Romans 13: 1-7; Titus 3: 1; 1 Peter 2: 13-17.

You are confusing what God expects us as disciples of Christ to do and what God expects governments to do. We are in the world but not of the world, if we are following Jesus. On the other hand, governments are both in the world and of the world, and Satan is the god and ruler of this world. Jesus is not reigning on this earth yet, (despite the teachings of the Jehovah's Witnesses to the contrary), except in the hearts and minds of His faithful followers.

We are citizens of heaven and of Christ's kingdom. Governments are not, nor can they be, nor should be. Governments and nations have to deal with masses of wicked, evil people who have no love or respect for God or for His laws. Governments have to represent all the people, not only Christians but also atheists, and they must deal with the day-to-day reality that the world is a dangeous, evil place.

If it wasn't for the government, you would not be able to sit in peace in your home and study your Bible or study the Bible with your neighbor. You would be busy defending yourself continually against robbery and murder. The Bible warns us against these kinds of people in 2 Tim. 3: 1-9.

In heaven and on the new earth, according to Revelation 21: 27, no violent criminals will exist, praise God!!! We won't even have to lock our gates for fear of thieves or others who would want to do us harm, because all those kinds of people will either have been washed and cleaned up by Jesus' blood or else destroyed. (Revelation 20: 11-15.)

August 25, 2006

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Gail said:

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We are so so so far from the kingdom it's not even funny. Good grief we can barely imagine Christ washing the feet of Judas, let alone Hitler, Bin Laden, or Satan.

We are so very far from the kingdom with all that.

Let's think about that for a minute. It is true that Jesus washed the feet of Judas. He did so as a restorative measure because there still was a chance that he might change his mind and come to Him and be saved.

But the Bible is very clear that there is coming a time when those who have rejected him, especially Satan and his angels, will receive punishment, not another chance. Judas in a few hours from the foot washing time, was fixed in his decision and beyond reach.

Does the verse that says we ought not to throw pearls before swine have any relevancy here, I wonder? Who are the swine but those who wouldn't appreciate the Gospel and would only turn around and cut you in pieces? Doesn't that describe Satan and perhaps a few of his devoted followers who enjoy mass murder? Jesus Christ is love, yes, but a fool He is definitely not, though I'm afraid some portray Him that way.

Jesus would have "washed" Lucifer's "feet" before he made war against Him in heaven, but after that, there is nothing in either the Bible or in Ellen White's writings to indicate Jesus Christ would ever have washed the devil's, or Satan's, or that old dragon's, feet. By that time, Satan was incapable of changing. There was nothing more that God could do to save him. Hence no reason to wash his feet. On the contrary, God forced him out of heaven at end of a heavenly sword in the hand of the preincarnate Son of God.

August 25, 2006

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Gail said:

Let's think about that for a minute. It is true that Jesus washed the feet of Judas. He did so as a restorative measure because there still was a chance that he might change his mind and come to Him and be saved.

But the Bible is very clear that there is coming a time when those who have rejected him, especially Satan and his angels, will receive punishment, not another chance. Judas in a few hours from the foot washing time, was fixed in his decision and beyond reach.

Hi Gail. Actually the Bible itself is NOT very clear that this is the case precisely as you have worded it above. However, that would be a very involved and complex discussion with threads from many different places in the tapestry of truth, and not something I can easily delineate in a simple paragraph or two, so I'm not going to engage a debate about it right now.

I don't think all people necessarily read, learn, and assemble the various aspects and facets of Bible truth in exactly the same way, so for that reason I'd be careful about asserting that "the Bible says" what my mind takes it to be saying as if the two are the same thing. Not to mention so much of that is second hand, taught to us from someone else's "assembly plan" for those pieces, and not our own work wrestling with the word and the Spirit.

I see a vastly different realm of progressive revelation when I read Scripture from what you articulated above, and I have met others who do as well.

Peace.

August 25, 2006

John317: you raise some interesting points for consideration in your posts. Thanks for challenging my thinking! <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

August 25, 2006

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Nicodema said:

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Gay4JESUS said:

Now of course if the consequence of sin is death who or what will carry it out?

I will let everyone answer that question themselves...

The wages of sin IS death. BUT ... the GIFT of God is eternal life, through Jesus Christ our Lord.

We are the only ones who put conditions on that free gift -- who can have it, who WE will say has it, what we must do to have it (last I checked you didn't have to do ANYTHING to have someone ELSE GIVE you a gift -- they did so when THEY pleased).

The Bible calls eternal life a gift because we can't possibly earn it or merit it. But don't be fooled into thinking that we don't have a part to play in receiving that gift. First of all, we have to accept it through Jesus Christ, and most people so far have decided to reject it. Second of all, we have to keep accepting it, and a lot of people stop doing this at some point. Thirdly, we have to use the gift. There will be a lot of people outside Christ's kingdom who at one time or another had a desire to be inside it but won't be because they ignored some very important things God says in His word about salvation. The Bible says some will be calling to Him, Lord, Lord, remember when...But Jesus will turn and say, We were never friends.

(I would like to suggest that we study all that the Bible says about salvation, including Christ's parables, not just read a few verses in the epistles of Saint Paul. Also read the Hebrew Prophets.)

August 25, 2006

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John317 said:

The Bible calls eternal life a gift because we can't possibly earn it or merit it. But don't be fooled into thinking that we don't have a part to play in receiving that gift. First of all, we have to accept it through Jesus Christ, and most people so far have decided to reject it. Second of all, we have to keep accepting it, and a lot of people stop doing this at some point. Thirdly, we have to use the gift. There will be a lot of people outside Christ's kingdom who at one time or another had a desire to be inside it but won't be because they ignored some very important things God says in His word about salvation. The Bible says some will be calling to Him, Lord, Lord, remember when...But Jesus will turn and say, We were never friends.

I understand what I think you are driving at here, but a major problem arises when the language of #2 and #3 above -- "keep accepting it" and "use the gift" -- become euphemisms or code words for doing something to earn it. It almost seems like this is the soteriological default in Adventism, maybe even in Christendom itself, and it forms a number of circuitous traps logically and experientially, choking out the good seed FAR more effectively than any "weeds" of the cares and lures of this world.

I think we have to be very careful what language we use for this reason, and not leave the impression that salvation is only a free gift at first, but thereafter you have to work to retain it ... or else. The GOOD news should be good from start to finish, and the gift should be free from start to finish. Instead of binding the heavy burden on the poor sinner's shoulders of how on earth are they ever going to become good enough to "continue accepting" the gift (keep being saved) we need to focus on the power of the Holy Spirit at work in us and what we can expect from Him in terms of spiritual regeneration.

August 25, 2006

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Robert said:

Anyway, we are off the subject! Does God kill? No...God doesn't sin!

Since God the Father is not human and the law was written to meet sinners in their human condition, would it make much sense to think that the law applies exactly to Almighty God in the same way that it does to sinful humans?

Take the example of Exodus 20: 5. It says that God "visits the iniquity of the fathers upon the children of the third and the four generation of those who hate me." If you or I did that, it would be a sin, yet God does it, and we do not call it a sin, do we?

Again, God has absolute freedom to show grace and mercy to anyone He chooses to. Perhaps we forget all too easily that God is not obligated to save anyone; that, indeed, He would have been right to destroy the whole earth in a flood if He had chosen to, instead of saving only a few undeserving people in an ark.

Please also consider the fact that God precedes law, and not the other way around. The law exists because of God, and not God because of the law. God is free to use the law in a way that we cannot. We cannot use God's law but are only commanded to obey it. It stands over and above us, whereas God stands over and above all things, including the law. While God "lives up to", and cannot contradict, His law of love-- again, because it is really a written expression of His character, as He relates to humans-- yet there have been many times in the past when His actions in human history were different than short-sighted people thought they should be. But God is not on trial within the limits of human language.

August 25, 2006

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John317 said:'I [God] am going to put an end to all the people...'" etc, etc, etc…

In order to understand how God deals with sin, we must look at how He dealt with His own Son, Jesus Christ, the great Sin-bearer. Here's the typical point of view:

"I [God] will strike the Shepherd. . . . We esteemed Him stricken, smitten by God" (Mark 114:27; Isaiah 53:4).

But Jesus' own words give a glimpse of what really happened:

"My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?" (Mark 15:34).

"He [God] that spared not his own Son, but delivered [abandoned] Him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?" (Romans 8:32, KJV; Romans 4:24, 25). It was the Father who delivered Him (or released Him) to the destructive forces around Him. (See also Matthew 26:2, 14, 15; 27:18; Mark 10:33, 34; 14:10; 15:1, 11; Luke 22:4; Acts 2:23.)

This is how God works....He does not kill - He does not torture - He simply removes Himself from the scene after one's continual rejection.

August 25, 2006

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Nicodema said:

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John317 said:

The Bible calls eternal life a gift because we can't possibly earn it or merit it. But don't be fooled into thinking that we don't have a part to play in receiving that gift. First of all, we have to accept it through Jesus Christ, and most people so far have decided to reject it. Second of all, we have to keep accepting it, and a lot of people stop doing this at some point. Thirdly, we have to use the gift. There will be a lot of people outside Christ's kingdom who at one time or another had a desire to be inside it but won't be because they ignored some very important things God says in His word about salvation. The Bible says some will be calling to Him, Lord, Lord, remember when...But Jesus will turn and say, We were never friends.

I understand what I think you are driving at here, but a major problem arises when the language of #2 and #3 above -- "keep accepting it" and "use the gift" -- become euphemisms or code words for doing something to earn it. It almost seems like this is the soteriological default in Adventism, maybe even in Christendom itself, and it forms a number of circuitous traps logically and experientially, choking out the good seed FAR more effectively than any "weeds" of the cares and lures of this world.

I think we have to be very careful what language we use for this reason, and not leave the impression that salvation is only a free gift at first, but thereafter you have to work to retain it ... or else. The GOOD news should be good from start to finish, and the gift should be free from start to finish. Instead of binding the heavy burden on the poor sinner's shoulders of how on earth are they ever going to become good enough to "continue accepting" the gift (keep being saved) we need to focus on the power of the Holy Spirit at work in us and what we can expect from Him in terms of spiritual regeneration.

Really I agree with everything you've said here. The Good News is good from start to finish, except that it becomes not merely good but fantastic. Please read 2 Peter 1: 1-11 and 1 John 3: 1-10; 5: 11,13, 20. Amazing!

Have more to add after dinner. John 3: 17

August 25, 2006

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John317 said: God has absolute freedom to show grace and mercy to anyone He chooses to.

Nope! God loves "all men" unconditionally! Read your Bible, but then again you have God breaking His own law once again by making Him partial. The reason that He will not take all men to heaven is because "some" will tell Him to get lost and that His gift is not needed.

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God is not obligated to save anyone

God, who is love, can do no other. It is in His nature. However, He is not obligated to save those who think they can earn heaven. It is a free gift.

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God "lives up to", and cannot contradict, His law of love

Good, then He cannot kill. Why? Now read carefully:

1] God is love.

2] Love is the fulfillment of the law

Therefore, "God is the fulfillment of the law"

And since love does not kill/murder, then God cannot kill!

Rob

August 25, 2006

"So the anger of the Lord was aroused against them, and He departed. And when the cloud departed from above the tabernacle, suddenly Miriam became leprous, as white as snow (Numbers 12:9, 10)."

Notice that He departed. Only then did Miriam appear leprous.

August 25, 2006

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Robert said:

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John317 said:'I [God] am going to put an end to all the people...'" etc, etc, etc…

In order to understand how God deals with sin, we must look at how He dealt with His own Son, Jesus Christ, the great Sin-bearer. Here's the typical point of view:

"I [God] will strike the Shepherd. . . . We esteemed Him stricken, smitten by God" (Mark 114:27; Isaiah 53:4).

But Jesus' own words give a glimpse of what really happened:

"My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?" (Mark 15:34).

"He [God] that spared not his own Son, but delivered [abandoned] Him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?" (Romans 8:32, KJV; Romans 4:24, 25). It was the Father who delivered Him (or released Him) to the destructive forces around Him. (See also Matthew 26:2, 14, 15; 27:18; Mark 10:33, 34; 14:10; 15:1, 11; Luke 22:4; Acts 2:23.)

This is how God works....He does not kill - He does not torture - He simply removes Himself from the scene after one's continual rejection.

As someone who attended Graham Maxwell's Sabbath school class for many years and interviewed him about his theological beliefs for the Insight magazine, I completely understand your point of view and am thoroughly familiar with it. I used to believe the same thing. The problem is that it ignores a great deal of the evidence both in the Bible and in the writings of Ellen White. It also tends to portray God as just a passive actor on the stage of human redemptive history when it comes to dealing with evil. The Bible very clearly contradicts this view. For instance, God made war against Lucifer and his millions of followers and forced them out of heaven. God did not merely "remove Himself". The same with the story of the flood and of Sodom and Gomorrah.

I would like to see you deal with the particular verses that I gave as examples of proof that God has killed in the past, etc.

August 25, 2006

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John317 said: The problem is that it ignores a great deal of the evidence both in the Bible and in the writings of Ellen White.

According to your preconceived views....

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

God made war against Lucifer and his millions of followers and forced them out of heaven. God did not merely "remove Himself".

God and the angels are not "flesh and blood"...they are "spirit"....They can walk through walls, appear and disappear, etc...So there wasn't war as we think of war and bloodshed. There was a war of ideas...Satan and his system of "self" fully contradicted God's system of "selflessness". Satan wasn't allowed to put his system to the test in heaven, but he was allowed to go to other worlds until our parents bought into his ideas here on earth.

August 26, 2006

Here's some more from the book, "Light on the Dark Side of God":

Despite the seemingly clear way in which Scripture presents Him, the traditional view of Christianity's God is heavy with ethical problems that have puzzled reasonable men and women from time immemorial. As long as humans have reasoned on the subject of God, they have wondered about His destructive side. Noah's flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, eternal hell fire. . . . How can a God who punishes so cruelly also say: "I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn, turn from your evil ways! For why should you die?" "How can I give you up, Ephraim? How can I hand you over, Israel? . . . My heart churns within Me; My sympathy is stirred." "My heart sobs like a flute for Moab, sobs like a flute for the men of Kirheres; that accumulated treasure all lost" (Ezekiel 33:11; Hosea 11:8; Jeremiah 48:36, JB). Would not humans manifesting this personality split be considered psychotic?

How can God exercise such "cruel and unusual" punishment as drowning the world, burning cities and the humans in them, and still be considered loving and just, as He and His adherents claim? He extended Himself to the lengths of Calvary to preserve our freedom of choice. But is choice really free, with God standing over us to destroy us if we choose wrong? After enduring the cross to redeem humanity, thus showing His loving character before the universe, why does He, in the end, reverse it all by executing those whose choices He does not like?

How can a God who kills command His people not to kill; and yet to be like Him? How does the mild and gentle Jesus reflect the character of the "fire-breathing" Old Testament God He came to reveal? Perhaps nothing has contributed more to the advancement of atheism than these perplexing unanswered questions of Christianity.

The 19th century skeptic, Robert G. Ingersoll, spoke for multitudes through the ages, when he addressed the idea of an eternally burning hell in these words: "Infinite punishment is infinite cruelty, endless injustice, immortal meanness. . . .

"Christians have placed upon the throne of the universe a God of eternal hate. I cannot worship a being whose vengeance is boundless, whose cruelty shoreless, and whose malice is increased by the agonies he inflicts." [M.M. Campbell]

August 26, 2006

"Woe to them when I [God] depart from them!" (Hosea 9:12).

Is there an example of the above in the NT?

2 Thess. 2:9 The coming of the lawless one by the activity of Satan will be with all power and with pretended signs and wonders, 10 and with all wicked deception for those who are to perish, [why?] because they refused to love the truth [Jesus] and so be saved. 11 For this reason [i.e., because they refused "the truth"] God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12 and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

Okay, notice what seems to be a contradiction:

1] "The lawless one [will come] with all wicked deception"

2] "God sends them a powerful delusion"

Who is the one that deceives,

1] "The lawless one" or

2] "God"?

It can't be both! For one God isn't in the business of deceiving...He's in the business of saving. Satan, and those under him, is in the business of deceiving.

So again we see God taking or assuming the blame because in His sovereignty He has allowed Satan to exist. In other words He knew that Lucifer would become a devil before He created him, but yet He created Him anyway. Therefore God assumes the responsibility, but actually it is Satan who is to blame.

August 26, 2006

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Robert said:

"Woe to them when I [God] depart from them!" (Hosea 9:12).

Is there an example of the above in the NT?

Matt 23:37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. 38 [:"red"] Look, your house is left to you desolate.[/] [see also Matthew 24:2]

Clearly this is a love that protects! Nevertheless many of the Jews were "unwilling" - they rejected Jesus. What was the result?

During the summer of 70, the Romans breached the walls of Jerusalem, and initiated an orgy of violence and destruction. Shortly thereafter, they destroyed the Second Temple. This was the final and most devastating Roman blow against Judea.

It is estimated that as many as one million Jews died in the Great Revolt against Rome. When people today speak of the almost two-thousand-year span of Jewish homelessness and exile, they are dating it from the failure of the revolt and the destruction of the Temple. [source: Joseph Telushkin. Jewish Literacy]

Did God did destroy them? No, they destroyed themselves. Could God have stopped it? Sure. Then why didn't He? Choice...freewill!

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