does God condone killing?

August 19, 2006

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rudywoofs said: <blockquote>Quote:<hr />

Robert said: <blockquote>Quote:<hr />

John317 said: God has even had to "kill", and he will kill again

Here's the god you present:

"I'm God...love me or I'll kill ya!"

uh...isn't that basically what God says when you come right down to it? Obey God or die?

God's law demands perfect, unblemished righteousness. That's the Old Covenant in a nutshell.

But God so loved the human race that He gave His Son so that through His doing and dying we might have life and life more abundantly.

God, in the form of Jesus, didn't come to condemn the world but rather to save it from "the curse of the law".

So no, God says to you and me, "Stay with Me for in Me you have eternal life." Here's the quote:

1 John 5:12 He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.

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God will do that Himself, won't He? <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

No....And this is a quote from Ellen White:

"God destroys no man. Everyone who is destroyed

will have destroyed himself."

Now look at how I described the "wrath of God" in a previous post. Read that again. Does what I say now make sense?

Rob

August 19, 2006

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Does what I say now make sense?

no - but that's okay... probably beyond me at this point in my journey.. <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

August 19, 2006

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rudywoofs said:

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Robert said:

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John317 said: God has even had to "kill", and he will kill again

Here's the god you present:

"I'm God...love me or I'll kill ya!"

uh...isn't that basically what God says when you come right down to it? Obey God or die? It isn't going to be a smoker's careless cigarette toss out of a car window that will cause the final burning up of the wicked - God will do that Himself, won't He? <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Yes, that's the bottom line, but don't forget the full context. Think of it rather like a doctor warning you that there are certain laws in the universe that you need to obey if you don't want to live. Don't forget the fact that the only reason you and I have even one second of life is because of God's sustaining power. Don't forget that to disobey God means death, not because God arbitrarily kills people but because people who hold onto sin cannot possibly survive in His presence. Understand what the Bible means when it says our God is a consuming fire. Don't forget that through Christ God has provided the only means by which we can be saved. And finally, please don't forget all that God is offering us in the way of an intimate relationship with God Himself in the person of His Son Jesus Christ, to say nothing of eternal life and immortality.

When it comes to the final destruction of the wicked, I believe the Bible gives good reason to view their death as the consequences of their choice to reject God and hold onto sin. It is as if God throws open the doors of His kingdom and invites everyone in, but whereas some thrive in God's holy, glorious presence, many others are burned up. Why the difference? Because some have allowed God to clean them up and heal them, but sadly most choose to reject the cure and stay in their sinful condition. Perhaps they didn't realize that just as snow melts in the presence of fire, so sin must be destroyed in the presence of God, and if people insist on holding onto sin, they will also be destroyed along with their sin. God refuses to force people to be in His kingdom, but everyone who hears the gospel may be there if they truly will to be there.

Somewhat like a doctor appealing to a patient to obey physcial laws of health, God's appeal is, O why will you die? (By the way, this is precisely what the book of Hosea is all about.)

August 20, 2006

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Robert said:

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John317 said: God has even had to "kill", and he will kill again

Here's the god you present:

"I'm God...love me or I'll kill ya!"

Rob

Don't forget that God has demonstrated throughout history that He deserves our love and trust and admiration. Satan says, "I'm god-- love me or hate me, no matter what you will die." God will be our God or Satan will be-- God deserves to be and Satan does not. Why would anyone choose not to love Him? That would be the same as choosing death. Given the choice between living everlastingly with Jesus and experiencing all the joys on a perfect earth or dying, why would anyone who understands this choose death?

August 20, 2006

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Robert said:

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rudywoofs said: <blockquote>Quote:<hr />

Robert said: <blockquote>Quote:<hr />

John317 said: God has even had to "kill", and he will kill again

Here's the god you present:

"I'm God...love me or I'll kill ya!"

uh...isn't that basically what God says when you come right down to it? Obey God or die?

God's law demands perfect, unblemished righteousness. That's the Old Covenant in a nutshell.

But God so loved the human race that He gave His Son so that through His doing and dying we might have life and life more abundantly.

God, in the form of Jesus, didn't come to condemn the world but rather to save it from "the curse of the law".

So no, God says to you and me, "Stay with Me for in Me you have eternal life." Here's the quote:

1 John 5:12 He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.

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God will do that Himself, won't He? <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

No....And this is a quote from Ellen White:

"God destroys no man. Everyone who is destroyed

will have destroyed himself."

Now look at how I described the "wrath of God" in a previous post. Read that again. Does what I say now make sense?

Rob

The condition of eternal life under the New Covenant is still perfect righteousness and obedience. God's standards have not changed since Eden. It is precisely because God cannot change His standards that Christ had to die. If He could have changed one iota of the law in order to save us, He would have. But the fact that God Himself came to live and die here for our salvation is proof that He cannot change the standards any more than He Himself will change.

One of the main differences between the Old Covenant and the New is that under the Old Covenant the people promised to obey all that God had said, whereas under the New, God is the one who makes the promise. He promises to write His law on our hearts and minds. Also, of course, under the New Covenant we are saved by the shedding of Christ's blood that stands between us and the penalty that we deserve. Then, as we put our entire confidence in Christ and in His atonement, God forgives us and accounts us as perfectly righteous in Christ.

August 20, 2006

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John317 said:

Which is correct? Is it either/or? No. I would submit that both statements are correct. Saul's inquiry of the Lord was phony, so it was the same as if he did not inquire of the Lord.

I would say you have discovered one of the keys to the kingdom. There are no contradictions in God's instructions/counsels to His children, only misunderstandings that often lead to men trying to make God into their own image. The example given above is probably typified by this;

[:"red"] "The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are...

And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.

I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted." [/] Luke 18:11,13,14 KJV

August 20, 2006

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Robert said:

"I'm God...love me or I'll kill ya!"

Rob

[:"red"] "Ephraim is joined to idols; Let him alone." [/] Hosea 4:17 NASB

[:"red"] "See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand." [/] Deuteronomy 32:39 KJV

August 20, 2006

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Robert said:

History offers an inexhaustible supply of illustrations of the subtle and pernicious effects the traditional view of a destroying God has had on civilization. It has opened the door to injustice and persecution throughout time; paved the way for intolerance, bigotry and the imposing of religious laws and duties upon an unconvinced people. If God can use force to get attention, the logic runs, then believers may use similar tactics to do his work.

Civilizations do not rise higher morally than their concept of Deity. "Ye are of your father . . . ," Said Jesus, "and the works of your father ye will do" (John 8:44, KJV).

Jesus predicted two thousand years ago that thus it would be. "The time is coming that whosoever kills you will think that he offers God service," He said (John 16:2). History confirms His prophecy. How could we, as Christians, have been so blind, so callous, so indifferent to human life? Jesus distills the answer down to its core. "These things they will do to you," He continues, "because they have not known the Father nor Me (v. 3). Because Scripture gives so many examples of God's wiping out His enemies, Christians have become confused regarding the interpretation of Jesus' words. They have concluded that when we destroy them, we're doing so as God's agents, but when they destroy us, they are fulfilling this prediction. We see our enemy as God's enemy and ourselves as His sword of justice, because for war to occur in the first place the warriors must be made to see their cause as righteous and the enemy's as evil. Yet is it not possible that Jesus meant that wherever people kill each other in the name of religion, neither side bears the signet of the living God?

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Yes, of course. I agree with everything you've said here. I would only add that there have been terrible things also done because of people's misunderstanding of the Sabbath, yet that does not mean the Sabbath is no longer binding. Similarly, just because people intrepret God's actions in the wrong way is no reason to reject the plain teachings of the Bible that God has at times taken the extreme measure of destroying people. We shouldn't accept or reject Biblical teachings on the basis of whether we find them palatable but always on whether they have firm Biblical support.

What all this really shows is the very costly risks of being misunderstood that a loving God has taken during this emergency period because of His determination to save as many as He can. It's sort of like a parent who during an emergency loves the child enough to be willing to take the risk that the the child may at first misunderstand the parent's voice and actions and think the parent is angry when all the parent is actually doing is saving her child's life. The parent hopes the child will change its mind as it matures and thinks about what happened. Would it be fair to say God has similar hopes and wishes for us?

August 20, 2006

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John317 said:

Think of it rather like a doctor warning you that there are certain laws in the universe that you need to obey if you don't want to live.

Not to mention that for every serial killer there are numbers of people who lose their lives as the result of that killer's right to live. Some argue that it is merciful of God to preserve the life of the killer, while in essence that act for the killer, condemns uncounted others to a sentence of death.

[:"red"] ""Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, this he will also reap.

[/] Galatians 6:7 NASB

August 20, 2006

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LifeHiscost said:

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Robert said:

"I'm God...love me or I'll kill ya!"

Rob

[:"red"] "Ephraim is joined to idols; Let him alone." [/] Hosea 4:17 NASB

[:"red"] "See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand." [/] Deuteronomy 32:39 KJV

It seems to me God is saying in Deut. 32:39 that if we are going to pray to a power who we really want to help us, we had better pray to Him because He is the only true God in existence. All the others are no more than dirt and clay. Satan and his fallen spirit beings do exist, but they will only bring about our eternal destruction. As Hosea says, God will finally leave us to our sins if we insist but only after He has emptied all heaven to save us.

August 20, 2006

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John317 said:

For instance, we are told it is wrong to seek our own glory, yet God seeks His own glory continuously.

[:"red"] "The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the God of our fathers, glorified His Servant Jesus" [/]

Acts 3:13 NKJV

[:"red"] "...just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many." [/] Matthew 20:28 NASB

Not wishing to interrupt your train of thought (of which much I agree with), John317, but I would like to know why you have come to the conclusion that hate, of itself, is a sin?

And killing with malice aforethought, commonly known as murder, would describe the killing God (Who is love) asks His children to avoid absolutely. To totally avoid killing as God ordained, is the reason bodies that have long ceased being persons (personalities) are allowed to exist, running on machine technologies that leave no room for mercy.

[:"red"] "Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever." [/] Hebrews 13:8 NASB

[:"red"] "`And be not afraid of those killing the body, and are not able to kill the soul, but fear rather Him who is able both soul and body to destroy in gehenna." [/] Matthew 10:28 YLT

August 20, 2006

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John317 said: Don't forget that to disobey God means death, not because God arbitrarily kills people but because people who hold onto sin cannot possibly survive in His presence.

Pam, pay no attention to this "scare tactic"! This is baloney. Why? As the Bible states, "There is none righteous, no, not even one....There's none good but One, that is, God" and on and on and on.

The fact that we are not perfect proves that the flesh still has a controlling factor. None of us are living Christ's life as recorded in the N.T.

Yes, we mature, but maturity isn't what the law requires! It, the law, requires absolute righteousness both in nature and in performance.

Second of all this "scare tactic" that we "cannot possibly survive in His presence" and therefore we better get perfect is an attempt at driving believers into the camp of legalism. What he is forgetting is at the Second Coming "we shall be changed" in a moment, in the twinkling of eye....

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...some have allowed God to clean them up and heal them, but sadly most choose to reject the cure and stay in their sinful condition.

Pam...this is more legalism! Is John still sinful? You bet! Is he growing? Hopefully! But I'll tell you from experience that legalists never experience genuine fruit because it is self-produced. It is self-righteousness.

Why? Because God will not assist those who pervert the gospel and the love of God.

August 20, 2006

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LifeHiscost said: [:"red"] "See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand."[/] Deuteronomy 32:39 KJV <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/DOVE.gif" alt="" />

God is assuming the blame here because when men persist in their unbelief God has to remove Himself from their midst. The consequences of living life without God are disastrous, not because God does the killing, but because men live in a world full of dangers on every side that are a result of sin. Because men die outside God's love and protection, He assumes the blame. Big diff!

Rob

August 20, 2006

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rudywoofs said:

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Does what I say now make sense?

no - but that's okay... probably beyond me at this point in my journey.. <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

No! This is fundamental....God's love for you MUST be understood for a healthy, stable relationship. Without it you'll be in shifting sand instead of on the Rock, Jesus Christ.

Please remember that on the cross Jesus as the Son of man had to make a choice. He must have thought, "Shall I come down and save Myself from these people spiting in my face...from these people murdering Me, or shall I say goodbye to life forever so that they can take My place in heaven?" Well we know the answer...and that answer speaks volumes of the love God. The cross forever proves that GOD Loves YOU MORE THAN HIMSELF! How can a God who loves us more than Himself kill and cause destruction when these are Satan’s attributes?

Here's a little side thought:

Paul says that, "The wages of sin is death." Get this straight -- "sin" causes death, not God. It pays in death. If God is the cause of death then God is the author of sin, period. Get it?

Rob

August 20, 2006

1 John 4:17 “There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves punishment, and the one who fears is not perfected in love.”

Romans 8:38 For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, 39 nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

“To engage in His service merely from hope of reward or fear of punishment would avail nothing. Open apostasy would not be more offensive to God than hypocrisy and mere formal worship.” [EGW]

August 20, 2006

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John317 said: yet that does not mean the Sabbath is no longer binding.

Pam, I am sure that John means well, but what he is stating here is more legalism. Anything that I do in my life is a result of living my life with God. Here John is making the result the means. He is making the Sabbath "binding". He can't do that and I will tell you why:

Turn to Gal 3:10

For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, to perform them.”

The phrase "works of the law" means meriting heaven by anything, partially or fully, by my law keeping. "Works of the law" is equivalent to the word "legalism"!

Note that in order to be justified by law you must "abide by all things written the in the book of the law to do them"! And you must do it without sinning....

11 Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, “The just by faith shall live.”

Very clear, huh? We live and shall live because we stand "just" or justified by faith apart from our performance.

12 the Law, however, is not of faith; on the contrary, “He who practices them shall live by them.”

In other words the law doesn't care if you believe or have faith in it. It can't save and it allows only those who practice its demands to live.

13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree” — 14 in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Nuff said!

Rob

August 20, 2006

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LifeHiscost said:

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John317 said:

Think of it rather like a doctor warning you that there are certain laws in the universe that you need to obey if you want to live.

Not to mention that for every serial killer there are numbers of people who lose their lives as the result of that killer's right to live. Some argue that it is merciful of God to preserve the life of the killer, while in essence that act for the killer, condemns uncounted others to a sentence of death.

[:"red"] ""Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, this he will also reap.

[/] Galatians 6:7 NASB

I believe that the principles given in the Sermon on the Mount are for individual believers in Christ to practice. In Matthew 5 through 8, Jesus was giving the laws of His Kingdom, intended for His followers. However, the governments of the world are not a part of Christ's kingdom (although many individuals under those governments are). Governments must control the lawless who only exploit weakness, and that is what they are designed to do (1 Peter 2: 13, 14).

In the world at large there has to be a balance, then, between the the laws of Christ's kingdom and laws of God such as Genesis 9:5,6; Exodus 21:23; and principles given in Romans 13:1-10. These are principles that the Bible says God intends for the nations in order to control the lawless. Those include, of course, the serial murderers, who, I believe, deserve to have their lives taken from them in the same way that they take the lives of others. Genesis 9:6 says that the execution of murderers is necessary in order to uphold the value of mankind as one made in God's image. I support that view. It seems to me that otherwise human life is cheapened and the victim's life made to appear of small value.

August 20, 2006

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John317 said:...deserve to have their lives taken from them in the same way that they take the lives of others.

1 Peter 2:21 To this you were called, because Christ suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in his steps. 22 “He committed no sin, and no deceit was found in his mouth.” 23 When they hurled their insults at him, he did not retaliate; when he suffered, he made no threats.

Matt 5:38 “You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth.’ 39 “But I say to you, do not resist him who is evil....

August 20, 2006

Pam,

Buy this book...you'll love it! It is written by an Adventist's lady. Here's the info.:

Light on the dark side of God

August 21, 2006

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Robert said:

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John317 said: yet that does not mean the Sabbath is no longer binding.

Pam, I am sure that John means well, but what he is stating here is more legalism. Anything that I do in my life is a result of living my life with God. Here John is making the result the means. He is making the Sabbath "binding". [/binding]

By "binding," I mean simply that we are still to remember to keep holy the Sabbath of the Lord our God, as it says in Exodus 20: 8-11. I believe that we are to keep the fourth commandment as much as we keep by God's grace the commandments to refrain from idolatry , murder, stealing, adultery, coveting, etc.

Of course, we are not "saved" or made right with God by keeping the Sabbath any more than we obtain right standing with Him by not killing or by obeying all of the other Ten Commandments. Rather, we keep God's law, including the Sabbath commandment, because of our love for God and because He is the Savior and Lord of our lives. We walk as He walked (l John 1:16) ; our lives become pure as He is pure (1 John 3:3). Christ kept the Sabbath (Luke 4:16) and so did Paul (Acts 13:42,44; 16:13) Jesus both made the Sabbath and kept the Sabbath. (1 John 1:6; Mark 2: 27, 28; John 1:3)

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He can't do that and I will tell you why:

Turn to Gal 3:10

For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, to perform them.”

The phrase "works of the law" means meriting heaven by anything, partially or fully, by my law keeping. "Works of the law" is equivalent to the word "legalism"!

I am not teaching that we merit heaven by obeying God's law, whether it is keeping the Sabbath or loving our neighbor.

But since we are saved by God's grace through faith, does that mean we are free to disobey God's moral law and sin? That is Paul's question in Romans 6:1 and again in 6:15 because he knew that some people would believe we don't have to obey God's law since we are saved through grace. Paul's answer to the question, are we released from obeying God's law because we are set right by faith, is a resounding NO-- Romans 6:2 and 6:15.

It is not a question of whether we should obey God or not. It is a question of why we obey.

If we obey in order to obtain right standing with God, then it is legalism, and that will never work. On the other hand, if we obey God because of the Holy Spirit in our life, then we are following both Jesus's and Paul's and all the prophets and apostle's examples. They all obeyed God and none of them were doing it to obtain salvation.

Can anyone imagine the Holy Spirit leading someone to disobey God's moral law, whether the first commandment or the fourth? I can't. The Holy Spirit leads us to conform our lives to God's will. That is the process called sanctification, and in it we are led to reflect more and more the image of Jesus Christ. Notice that under the New Covenant God promises in Hebrews 10: 5-18 to write His law on our hearts and minds.

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Note that in order to be justified by law you must "abide by all things written the in the book of the law to do them"! And you must do it without sinning....

11 Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, “The just by faith shall live.”

Very clear, huh? We live and shall live because we stand "just" or justified by faith apart from our performance.

Yes, it is very clear, and I totally agree with Gal. 3:10 and the many other verses that teach the same thing. Where we apparently disagree is that you seem to beleive that these verses mean we are released from the obligation to obey God's moral law and can now live in violation of God's law, or lawlessness. Perhaps that is not how you would put it, but that is really what you are saying when you teach that a man does not need to obey God's law once he is justified. Let me remind you that the entire Bible is against that teaching. Jesus did not die in order for us to live in sin but in order for us to overcome sin and live righteously by God's grace and by the power of the Holy Spirit.

Please study the following verses:

"Do we overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law" (Romans 3:31). (Romans 6:1,2; 6:15; Matthew 5:18; Romans 8:4; Matthew 15:3-6; 19:16-19; Romans 7: 7-12; 13: 8-10; 1 Cor. 7:19; 1 Cor 9:21; James 2:8-12; Rev. 12:17; 14: 12; 22: 14 [NKJV].)

To be justified means to be "set right with God," or "put in right relationship with God." No one can be set right with God through law keeping. No one can be set right by obeying God's moral law, whether that is obeying the first, fourth, or tenth commandment, or any other commandment. We all agree with that apparently. The question is, does that mean that we are now free to disobey God's moral law? Would anyone say that we are now free to steal or murder? No, I suspect not. God's grace does not give us liberty to do those things. Then neither does God's grace give us freedom to disobey the fourth commandment. That is all I am saying.

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12 the Law, however, is not of faith; on the contrary, “He who practices them shall live by them.”

In other words the law doesn't care if you believe or have faith in it. It can't save and it allows only those who practice its demands to live.

13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree” — 14 in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Nuff said!

Rob

The purpose of God's moral law is not to save us, but it does show that we are sinners in need of Jesus Christ. That means the moral law points out and defines sin-- (1 John 3:4; James 2:9; Romans 3:20; 7:7). If I don't first look into the mirror of God's law and see myself as a sinner, there is no reason for me to think I need a Savior to forgive my sins. That is one purpose of the law. ( James 1:23-25) Another important purpose of the moral law is to show us how God's wants us to live. That is why He promises to write it on our hearts and minds. (Hebrews 10)

Many people forget something of vital importance: while it is true that we don't merit anything by obeying God, no one will be in heaven who lives in sin, or continuously violates God's law. Proof: 1 Cor. 6:9, 10 lists those who won't be in God's kingdom, and they are all people who live contrary to God's moral law. Also see Revelation 21:8, 27; 22:11, 14, 14.

Lastly, Matthew 5:17-30 shows that Jesus' coming and dying did not release us from the necessity of obedience to God's moral law. Jesus flatly denies that His coming would bring about that change. As God is changeless, so is his eternal, moral law, because it is an expression of His everlasting, unchanging character.

August 21, 2006

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Robert said:

God is assuming the blame here because when men persist in their unbelief God has to remove Himself from their midst. The consequences of living life without God are disastrous, not because God does the killing, but because men live in a world full of dangers on every side that are a result of sin. Because men die outside God's love and protection, He assumes the blame. Big diff!

Rob

This is a plausible explanation by anyone who has not yet experienced victory over (any) sin but has little to do with what a sovereign Creator says He will do for those who willingly yield to His omnipotent power

[:"red"] "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father." [/] John 14:12 KJV

[:"red"] "If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love." [/] John 15:10 KJV

August 21, 2006

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Robert said:

Note that in order to be justified by law you must "abide by all things written the in the book of the law to do them"!

[:"red"] "And He will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week He will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering... " [/]

Dan 9:27 NASB

It would help you to define what law was done away with, Robert, if you were able to accept what God predicted for the ministry of Jesus some 500 years before His coming the first time.

August 21, 2006

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Robert said:

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John317 said:...deserve to have their lives taken from them in the same way that they take the lives of others.

1 Peter 2:21 To this you were called, because Christ suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in his steps. 22 “He committed no sin, and no deceit was found in his mouth.” 23 When they hurled their insults at him, he did not retaliate; when he suffered, he made no threats.

Matt 5:38 “You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth.’ 39 “But I say to you, do not resist him who is evil....

Please notice that Christ's words in the Sermon on the Mount were intended for His followers, not for world governments. Remember, Jesus said His kingdom is not of this world. What would happen if the government of the US, for instance, did not resist evil or those who are evil? Jesus words obviously were not meant for governments or world kingdoms but for believers who want to be citizens of His kingdom.

Please read below:

I believe that the principles given in the Sermon on the Mount are for individual believers in Christ to practice. In Matthew 5 through 8, Jesus was giving the laws of His Kingdom, intended for His followers. However, the governments of the world are not a part of Christ's kingdom (although many individuals under those governments are). Governments must control the lawless who only exploit weakness, and that is what they are designed to do (1 Peter 2: 13, 14).

In the world at large there has to be a balance, then, between the the laws of Christ's kingdom and laws of God such as Genesis 9:5,6; Exodus 21:23; and principles given in Romans 13:1-10. These are principles that the Bible says God intends for the nations in order to control the lawless. Those include, of course, the serial murderers, who, I believe, deserve to have their lives taken from them in the same way that they take the lives of others. Genesis 9:6 says that the execution of murderers is necessary in order to uphold the value of mankind as one made in God's image. I support that view. It seems to me that otherwise human life is cheapened and the victim's life made to appear of small value.

August 21, 2006

Quote Robert:

"Pam, pay no attention to this "scare tactic"! This is baloney. Why? As the Bible states, "There is none righteous, no, not even one....There's none good but One, that is, God" and on and on and on.

The fact that we are not perfect proves that the flesh still has a controlling factor. None of us are living Christ's life as recorded in the N.T.

Yes, we mature, but maturity isn't what the law requires! It, the law, requires absolute righteousness both in nature and in performance.

Second of all this "scare tactic" that we "cannot possibly survive in His presence" and therefore we better get perfect is an attempt at driving believers into the camp of legalism. What he is forgetting is at the Second Coming "we shall be changed" in a moment, in the twinkling of eye."

I agree with you Robert. As long as we live in this present sinful flesh, we shall continue sinning until we die even though our mindset say no to sin. We can only become sinless at His Second Coming when Christ will give each one of us a sinless flesh body to live by.

August 21, 2006

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

Robert said:

1 John 4:17 “There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves punishment, and the one who fears is not perfected in love.”

Romans 8:38 For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, 39 nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

“To engage in His service merely from hope of reward or fear of punishment would avail nothing. Open apostasy would not be more offensive to God than hypocrisy and mere formal worship.” [EGW]

Please notice the word, "merely." Ellen White does not contradict Romans 2:7-- "..to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immorality, God will give eternal life." Hundreds of verses could easily be added to this.

Read Isaiah 59: 2-- "Your iniquities have made a separation between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you so that he does not hear." Yes, our sins if they are not repented of, forsaken, and overcome can separate us from God. God does not change. He is not different from the God of Malachi 3:6 or Isaiah 59: 2. Nor is Christ different than He was when He uttered the words found in Revelation 3: 14-22.

Read 1 Cor. 15:34-- "Come to your mind, and sin no more. For some have no knowledge of God. I say this to your shame." Be sure to add to this 1 John 1: 5 to 2:6. 1 John 3:9-- "No one born of God commits [practices--NASB] sin; for God's nature abides in him, and he cannot [continue to] sin because he is born of God...whoever does not do right is not of God, nor he who does not love his brother" (RSV). See also 1 John 5: 3, 4.

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