does God condone killing?

[phkrause]

If you get 3abn on thursday september the 7th at 9am central time Pastor Doug Batchelor addresses this issue. Its from the Ten Commandments Weekend. I would image that on the west coast the time would be at 7 am? It also will be on Tuesday september the 5th at 11 pm Central time. I believe that would be 9 pm your time. Its pretty interesting. I've wondered that same issue. I liked the way he brought it out. I could never do it justice if I tried to tell what he said. You need to listen to it yourself.

pkrause

[Robert]

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pkrause said:Pastor Doug Batchelor addresses this issue.

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Don't take anyone's word. Go to the Bible yourself and study the contradictions until you arrive at truth.

[Robert]

Job 1:9 Then Satan answered the Lord, “Does Job fear God for nothing? 10 “Hast Thou not made a hedge about him and his house and all that he has, on every side? Thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions have increased in the land. 11 “[:"red"]But put forth Thy hand[/] now and touch all that he has; he will surely curse Thee to Thy face.” 12 Then the Lord said to Satan, “Behold, all that he has is in your power, only do not put forth your hand on him.” So Satan departed from the presence of the Lord.

Clearly God backed off from Job. Now who got the blame when calamity came?

Job 1:16 While he was yet speaking, there came another [messenger], and said, “[:"red"] The fire of God fell from heaven[/] and burned up the sheep and the servants, and consumed them; and I alone have escaped to tell you.”

Q1] Who did both Satan and one of the messengers blame?

A1] God

Q2] Who really did it?

A2] Satan

Here's another:

Job 2:5 [satan to God:] But put forth thy hand now, and touch his bone and his flesh, and he will curse thee to thy face.” 6 And the Lord said to Satan, “Behold, he is in your power; only spare his life.” 7 So Satan went forth from the presence of the Lord, and afflicted Job with loathsome sores from the sole of his foot to the crown of his head.

Q3] Who does Satan blame?

A3] God.

Q4] Who did it?

A4] Satan!

So you who blame God are in good company....

[Robert]

And how does Job end up?

Job 42:10 And the Lord restored the fortunes of Job when he prayed for his friends, and the Lord increased all that Job had twofold. 11 Then all his brothers, and all his sisters, and all who had known him before, came to him, and they ate bread with him in his house; and they consoled him and comforted him for all the evil that the Lord had brought on him. And each one gave him one piece of money, and each a ring of gold. 12 And the Lord blessed the latter days of Job more than his beginning, and he had 14,000 sheep, and 6,000 camels, and 1,000 yoke of oxen, and 1,000 female donkeys. 13 And he had seven sons and three daughters.

Two things:

The Lord didn't actually give Job twice what he had before. The fact that the Lord returned enabled Job to gain wealth! So we must be careful what we lay at the door of the Lord or we could say that He makes the poor stay in poverty.

Secondly, did God bring evil on Job or did Job, for whatever reason, bring it on himself? Well we know Job ends up repenting so Job did something to cause God to remove Himself. Whatever it was is not the subject of this post so please don't go there....

My point once again it that God assumes the blame for both the good and bad things that happen in this world. But that doesn't mean that He actually does these things....

So if you are confused remember this:

"For now we see [God] in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I shall know fully just as I also have been fully known."

God is better than you think!

[Nicodema]

If God condones killing, that makes Him a killer. If God condones warmaking, that makes Him a warmonger.

I can't say for certain what God condones or not, but I can say this: whatever people BELIEVE God condones, they will condone themselves.

And that's reason enough to be concerned.

[LifeHiscost]

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Robert said:

And how does Job end up? The Lord didn't actually give Job twice what he had before.

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[:"red"] "and the Lord increased all that Job had twofold." [/] Job 42:10

[:"red"] " And the LORD turned the captivity of Job, when he prayed for his friends: also the LORD gave Job twice as much as he had before." [/]Job 42:10 KJV

<img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/DOVE.gif" alt="" />

[Nicodema]

Hmmm, I thought it was sevenfold.

[Robert]

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LifeHiscost said:

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Robert said:

And how does Job end up? The Lord didn't actually give Job twice what he had before.

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[:"red"] "and the Lord increased all that Job had twofold." [/] Job 42:10

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The fact that God's blessing returned to Job enabled Job to gain wealth. God didn't personally write him out a check. <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> Besides, fire coming down from the sky and such kind of reduces the livestock, wouldn't you say?

Rob

[LifeHiscost]

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Robert said:

The fact that God's blessing returned to Job enabled Job to gain wealth. God didn't personally write him out a check. <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> Besides, fire coming down from the sky and such kind of reduces the livestock, wouldn't you say?

Rob

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Not to mix the forums or threads, I perceive that you do much as is seen to be a legalistic attitude. You choose to ignore, [:"red"] "For I know that in me, that is, in my flesh, dwelleth no good thing" [/] Romans 7:18 ASV as well as, [:"red"] "...we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags" [/] Isaiah 64:6 KJV

Therefore when Job moved to do that which was needed to see the fruit of his labor, it was only as forthcoming as the gifts of God were granted .

[:"red"] "O my soul, you have said to the LORD,“You are my Lord, My goodness is nothing apart from You." [/]

Psalm 16:2 NKJV

[:"red"] “And you shall remember the LORD your God, for it is He who gives you power to get wealth, that He may establish His covenant which He swore to your fathers, as it is this day." [/] Deuteronomy 8:18 NKJV

<img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/DOVE.gif" alt="" />

[John317]

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John317 said:

Satan killed the man Jesus Christ.

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Christ tasted the 2nd death - the God abandonment death. Technically it takes 3 to 7 days to die by crucifixion. But Christ died on day one....

Neither our humanity nor the Devil played any part in our salvation. That is to say in heaven we won?t be thanking the devil for killing Christ?.His contribution will be nothing ? absolutely nothing!!! What humanity did was to torture and abuse Christ. The crown of thorns, the flogging, etc., came from our bloodthirsty natures and has nothing to do with God.

Both the New Testament and Ellen White's writings are very clear that Satan was the one who inspired people to kill Chirst. He was also the one who inspired Herod to try and take Christ's life when He was a baby. People are of course involved in killing Jesus, but like Adam, people are following their leader, Satan, who is at the head of the rebellion against God.

[John317]

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pkrause said:

Pastor Doug Batchelor addresses this issue.

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Don't take anyone's word. Go to the Bible yourself and study the contradictions until you arrive at truth.

Originally Posted By: Robert

Job 1:9 Then Satan answered the Lord, ?Does Job fear God for nothing? 10 ?Hast Thou not made a hedge about him and his house and all that he has, on every side? Thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions have increased in the land. 11 ?[:"red"]But put forth Thy hand[/] now and touch all that he has; he will surely curse Thee to Thy face.? 12 Then the Lord said to Satan, ?Behold, all that he has is in your power, only do not put forth your hand on him.? So Satan departed from the presence of the Lord.

Clearly God backed off from Job. Now who got the blame when calamity came?

Job 1:16 While he was yet speaking, there came another [messenger], and said, ?[:"red"] The fire of God fell from heaven[/] and burned up the sheep and the servants, and consumed them; and I alone have escaped to tell you.?

Q1] Who did both Satan and one of the messengers blame?

A1] God

Q2] Who really did it?

A2] Satan

Here's another:

Job 2:5 [satan to God:] But put forth thy hand now, and touch his bone and his flesh, and he will curse thee to thy face.? 6 And the Lord said to Satan, ?Behold, he is in your power; only spare his life.? 7 So Satan went forth from the presence of the Lord, and afflicted Job with loathsome sores from the sole of his foot to the crown of his head.

Q3] Who does Satan blame?

A3] God.

Q4] Who did it?

A4] Satan!

So you who blame God are in good company....

But the Bible itself makes it very plain that God has killed people before and that He will destroy the wicked at the end. How can we say God did not do those things when the Bible says in plain language that He did them? When the Bible says, for instance, that God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah, or that God sent the flood, etc., the only way we can deny that God did those things is to say that the Bible writers were in error. In other words, we say that we know better than the Bible or the prophets. The only way we can say God won't destroy the wicked as described in Revelation 20: 9 and following is to say the Bible is wrong.

[John317]

If God condones killing, that makes Him a killer. If God condones warmaking, that makes Him a warmonger.

I can't say for certain what God condones or not, but I can say this: whatever people BELIEVE God condones, they will condone themselves.

And that's reason enough to be concerned.

I don't know how we can say we believe the Bible and deny that God has taken human life before or that He will destroy the wicked at the end. It seems to me the only way around it is to say we know better than the prophets who wrote back then. In that case, we are making God into the kind of God we want instead of accepting the God of the Bible as it portrays Him. I do believe that God always does what is right FOR HIM. But that doesn't make it right for me, or any other human, to do. God is not subject to the same rules or laws that you and I are subject to. The laws were written to meet us in our human condition, but of course God is not human.

I don't think God condones warmongering, either, but that is different from God's telling the Israelites to destroy and kill the Canannites. We moderns call that warmongering, and we think that by calling it by that name, we have made it morally wrong for God to do it. But apparently God did it anyway. He took a chance that He would be misunderstood. I think that if we study what happened and consider all the circumstances, we will be like grownups who understand why their parents did what they did.

[John317]

Numbers 31:17 ?Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known man intimately. 18 ?But all the girls who have not known man intimately, spare for yourselves."

Wow....What a Holy God! Kill the "little ones", but save the virgins for yourselves! Sick...real, real sick!!!

The OT Jews were legalists. They lived under the Old Covenant of an eye for eye a tooth for a tooth. Much of the OT is history. One doesn't have to read the OT very long to realize their concepts of God were off the mark. Personally I believe they prescribed things to God that God didn't say. They made a god in their own image after their likeness.

• John 16:2 A time is coming when anyone who kills you will think he is offering a service to God.

  Why?

  3 They will do such things because [:"red"]they have not known the Father or me.[/]

Did the Jews of the OT and many in the NT know God? NO! They rejected Jesus because He did not fit their preconceived ideas of a fire-breathing God. Hence much of the OT has this bias.

Rob

So, you don't believe Numbers 31:7 and following? Do you believe then that Moses was wrong-- that, in any case, God did not do what the Bible clearly says He did?

You are mistaken in saying that the Jews rejected Jesus for the reason you state here. The reason they rejected Jesus was that they were afraid of losing their power and afraid the Romans would come and destroy their city. They would have accepted Him and made Him their king if He had been willing to save them from the Romans.

[John317]

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John317 said:

As for whether God has freedom to show mercy to some and not to show it to others, please read Romans 9:10-24.

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You need to look at the context:

Romans 9:6 "...not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, 7 and not all are children of Abraham because they are his descendants; but ?Through Isaac shall your descendants be named.? 8 This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God [the literal descendents of Abraham], but the children of the promise are reckoned as descendants....27 And Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: ?Though the number of the sons of Israel be as the sand of the sea, only a remnant of them will be saved...."

The Jews claimed heaven in two ways:

1] Their law keeping

and

2] Their relationship to Abraham.

God says, "No" - "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy".... Why?

There's only one way to heaven and that is by Christ's righteousness. God is not obligated to give legalists a ticket to heaven. That's what Paul is saying!

God is free to do whatever He pleases. If He chooses to save some and not to save others, He is completely free to do that. We humans can't get a handle or a collar on God. We're to pray, "God's will be done on earth as it is in heaven!"

Too many people try to USE God for their own purposes, instead of allowing God use them for His purpose.

[John317]

John317 said: Either way, if the angel did not say what Ellen White says, Mrs. White would prove that she cannot be trusted.

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Sounds good to me!

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John317 said:

Either way, if the angel did not say what Ellen White says, Mrs. White would prove that she cannot be trusted.

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Sounds good to me!

Sorry to hear you think so. I love her writings myself and I believe without question she was a true prophet of God. I am amazed that we don't appreciate her more.

[John317]

Ellen White says that in the last days, Adventists' worst enemies will be former Adventists. Can anyone believe that today? I used to hear that as a kid and it seemed so hard to believe that former Sabbath keepers would confront Adventists with arguments about how wrong it is to keep the Sabbath, etc. But I can believe it very easily today. I find so many people in the church different than they were before. We have among us so many who don't even believe the Bible, let alone the Adventist faith. We live at a time when truly "everything that can be shaken will be shaken."

[John317]

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pkrause said:

Pastor Doug Batchelor addresses this issue.

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Don't take anyone's word. Go to the Bible yourself and study the contradictions until you arrive at truth.

The Bible contains no true contradictions but only apparent ones. I agree that we shouldn't take anyone's word for it but should study the Bible for ourselves. However, there is nothing wrong in listening to others who have studied. I believe that God intends Christians to listen to each other and learn from one another, but the bottom line is getting truth out of the Bible itself for ourselves in our personal study and prayer.

[John317]

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Robert said:

Anyway, we are off the subject! Does God kill? No...God doesn't sin!

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If by "condone" we mean to ask whether God has killed or commanded that people kill, I can only reply that God has indeed condoned killing, for that is clearly what the Bible teaches.

I deny, however, that this means God sins. Please refer to previous posts where I discussed this issue.

Let the following 7 examples suffice as proof that God has not only condoned killing but has Himself killed people and ordered people to kill others, and will destroy the wicked:

1) Genesis 6:13-- "God said to Noah, 'I am going to put an end to all the people...'" (Read chapter 7 of Genesis for the record of what happened. Also read 2 Peter 2: 5 where it says the flood is an example of the coming day of judgment.)

2) Genesis 19: 24, 29-- ""Then the Lord rained on Sodom and Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the Lord out of heaven..." "...so it was that..God destroyed the cities of the valley...He overthrew the cities..." (See 2 Peter 2:6 and Jude 7, where we are told that God's turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to ashes is an example of the future punishment and destruction of the wicked.)

3) Exodus 21: 14-17-- But if a man willfully attacks another to kill him treacherously, you shall take him from my altar, that he may die. Whoever strikes his father or his mother shall be put to death. Whoever steals a man, whether he sells him or is found in possession of him, shall be put to death. Whoever curses his father or his mother shall be put to death.

4) Numbers 25:4-- And the Lord said to Moses, "Take all the chiefs of the people, and hang them in the sun before the Lord, that the fierce anger of the Lord may turn away from Israel." (Now read Numbers 25: 6-13 where the record is that God blessed Phinehas and his descendants because Phinehas killed a very wicked man.)

5) Joshua 8: 1,2-- And the Lord said to Joshua, "Do not fear or be dismayed; take all the fighting men with you, and arise, go up to Ai; see, I have given into your hand the king of Ai, and is people, his city, and his land; and you shall do to Ai and its king as you did to Jericho and its king..." (Read Joshua 6: 21, 24 where you will find exactly what they had done to Jericho, killing every living thing in the city and burning it with fire. Only a fool could misunderstand what God commanded them to do to Ai.)

6) 2 Thess. 1: 7-10-- ...when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance upon those who do not know God and upon those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They shall suffer the punishment of eternal destruction and exclusion from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might, when he comes on that day to be glorified in his saints, and to be marveled at in all who have believed...

7) Revelation 20: 9, 15-- And they marched up over the broad earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city; but fire came down from heaven and consumed them...and if any one's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. ( It is noteworthy that the Majority Text reads, "out of heaven from God.")

Would anyone who does not believe that God has taken human life or that He won't do so in the future, explain why then the Bible says what it does in the above verses? So far I have not seen anyone addressing those particular verses directly, which has to be done if we are going to get a clear answer to the question that this forum is asking.

[David Koot]

We have among us so many who don't even believe the Bible, let alone the Adventist faith. We live at a time when truly "everything that can be shaken will be shaken."

Very true. In all my experience of soul-winning, I have found the most violent opposition to the teachings of the Adventist church, not from non-Adventists, who, on the whole, welcome the teachings, but from Adventists!

One real advantage to me of participating on this forum, is the opportunity to deal with various positions and arguments in regard to doctrinal matters. The process has already helped me deal with real-life situations where questions arise-for example, regarding the covenants, the law of God and the Investigative Judgment. The people with whom I work range from seminary graduates, to pastors, to church leaders to laypeople. Just two evenings ago, I had a very successful study with a Calvinist who graduated from Fuller, on the covenants. The gentleman with whom I am studying the covenants is well-read in Calvinist theology, a deep thinker, and at the same time, very open. The discussion on the covenants which I participated in on this forum, proved very helpful.

Dave

[Naomi]

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Very true. In all my experience of soul-winning, I have found the most violent opposition to the teachings of the Adventist church, not from non-Adventists, who, on the whole, welcome the teachings, but from Adventists!

Yes David, it is sad, but so true.

Signs of the times ... there will be a shaking!

[Nicodema]

Not believing that God is a murderous twit constitutes "violent opposition" to SDA teaching HOW?

[David Koot]

Not believing that God is a murderous twit constitutes "violent opposition" to SDA teaching HOW?

Actually, my post was in response to john317's observations in general. Not specifically, in my case, about the issue of God condoning or not condoning killing.

[John317]

Nico,

Does it seem to you that the Bible portrays God as a "murderous twit"? Is that how He comes across to you in the first five books, the histories, and the prophets? I'm wondering if you've read the Conflict Series by Ellen White, especially Patriarch and Prophets. I think those books can help in providing some insight into why God did what the Bible says He did, such as the destruction at the flood, at Sodom and Gomorrah and when Israel went into Palestine.

As you probably know, there have been a lot of people who, based on what they saw as the differences between Jesus Christ and seemingly angry God of the Old Testament, decided that Jehovah was the devil and essentially rejected the Hebrew Scriptures. William Blake felt that way. I believe he was wrong but I still enjoy reading him. I especially love his songs of innocence and his songs of experience, but I also like his prose poems.

Have you read Manfred by Lord Byron? There's a character in that dramatic poem who is very much like Lucifer. Byron obviously sympathized with Lucifer, as did Shelley and his wife, who wrote Frankenstein. I sometimes wonder how these writers may have written differently had they studied the writings of Ellen White on Lucifer, such as her chapters on Lucifer's fall.

[Nicodema]

I will definitely check out Manfred, John317. I've not read that one before. And I would say that an enlightened reading of EGW's accounts could very well have engendered even more sympathy with Lucifer, had these men the chance to have done so. The scene where He humiliates Himself begging to be restored and is turned away, despised, rejected, at the critical moment of His greatest vulnerability, is particularly heart-wrenching.

At least to Me.

p.s. have you read any Baudelaire?

[David Koot]

The scene where He humiliates Himself begging to be restored and is turned away, despised, rejected, at the critical moment of His greatest vulnerability, is particularly heart-wrenching.

That's not how it happened. God worked with Lucifer, bore patiently with him, allowed him to do his evil work of stirring up discord and rebellion. Lucifer's scheming failed. Sure, then he wanted his place back. But the seeds of rebellion were in his heart. He was sorry he lost in his bid for power, but not truly repentant. Today, he is the same as he was then--an evil monster, the father of all lies and death and destruction--and, a megalomanica who loves to be the focus of attention. By the way, I notice you used initial caps when referring to Satan ("He," "Himself," "His") That is only appropriate in reference to God. Satan is not God, but a created being, ugly, inherently evil and deserving of no respect. The less attention shown him, the better.

Dave