A temper tantrum?

[nuff sed]

A church member eating lunch at my house last Sabbath expressed his utter dismay at the editorial written by Roy Adams in the CrossWalk edition of the Adventist Review of February 15, 2007. In his opinion the remarks on cultural diversity and how high certain cultures could rise to in the Adventist denomination sounded like a little kid stamping his feet and having a temper tantrum and was completely uncalled for. He wondered whether or not this had anything to do with who was appointed the new editor of the Review. What do you think?

[Nan]

I think 'temper tantrum' is a bit strong - of course I am not in the US and do not know the overtones. We (females) could also do a head count and see how many women are represented there and a similar article would probably be described as a temper tantrum too. I do not think that nationality per se would be an issue, there have been many nonAmericans in the various senior jobs. Ethnicity may be a different disqualifier.

I will be interested to see how this is perceived by others in the US.

[darlene]

I happen to know Roy Adams somewhat and because of that I do not believe it was a temper tantrum.

[olger]

I'll read the article first... If this article is akin to Roy Adam's useless "A dose of Political Correctness" article (9-2000), perhaps there is good reason to be concerned for his judgement.

Bill Knott was the best choice for editor, in my opinion.

warm regards,

olger

[olger]

I just read the article online. The author is lamenting the fact that we don't have enough black leaders in the church.

If he, like Sam Pipim is suggesting that we dismantle the black/white conference barriers then I agree fully. If he, like Jesse Jackson, is demanding ecclesiastical affirmative action in the church, then I fully disagree.

What this church needs is reformation, not self-absorption with perceived rights. The only "right" our Saviour claimed was the right to lay down His life and take it up again (John 10:18).

Blessings,

olger

[bevin]

There is a simple solution.

Stop funding the central organization. Stop giving them power. They have nothing that SDA congregations don't voluntarily give them - and they will instantly respond or vanish when the funding is cut.

Moan all you like. While you are still sending them money, nothing will change.

/Bevin

[olger]

Where do you pay tithe, comrade?

olger

[Neil D]

Quote:

Moan all you like. While you are still sending them money, nothing will change.

What you would be advocating, Bevin, is chaos...as each group within Adventism would threaten the with holding of funds....and our church would become a goegraphical political party...with the African/South American divisions pitting itself against the Western/North American/European/Austrailian divisions....And there would be divisions among the divsions...

Oh, change happens, Bevin...it just happens extremely slow...

[bevin]

When I was a member of the SDA church, I paid my tithe into specific local-church projects. Places where I had control over it, so I could be sure it wasn't being wasted...

on satellite dish systems that cost $10,000 when it was clear that two years later they would cost < $1,000

on buying worthless tracts that never got anyone into church

on pyramid schemes involving post-offices

on lawyers to defend the church's discriminatory pay practises

etc etc etc

The early Christian church did not have a huge central organization controlling the spending of money

The early SDA church did not have a huge central organization controlling the spending of money

and many Protestant denominations don't

- and strangely they did not descend into any worse chaos than the SDA church is in right now

/Bevin

[olger]

Thanks Neil. I agree.

Thanks for the account of what you DID Bevin. What do you do?

G

[lazarus]

What this church needs is reformation, not self-absorption with perceived rights. The only "right" our Saviour claimed was the right to lay down His life and take it up again (John 10:18).

Blessings,

olger

Reformation covers a whole range of things. It would include giving all Pastors the opportunity to serve acording to all their gifts. That does currently happen in the SDA church . Thats obvious!

[lazarus]

To call this article a temper tantrum is the kind of response we are used to.

That thought came to me about three or four years ago as I walked the halls of the General Conference, looking at the pictures that adorn the walls of key departments in the building—pictures of the church’s topmost officials over the years. I counted 92 leaders, 89 of them (96.7 percent) Caucasian. This one reality trumps all our professions about diversity. They tell the story of a glass ceiling beyond which certain folks cannot rise. It’s as if there’s an unwritten understanding that certain positions in the church are too sensitive for certain ethnic groups to occupy. The United Nations can afford to take that risk, but the church is much too delicate for that!

http://www.adventistreview.org/issue.php?issue=2007-1505&page=5

[nuff sed]

I am not certain what "Dismantling the black conferences means".... Who would dismantle them?? I remember when there were NO black conferences. They were not forced upon anyone but were "demanded" by those they now serve. Regards, Don

[Woody]

What we need is a color blind church .... where the fact that a Conference official is Black or White really doesn't matter. We should be able to benefit from their skills no matter what the color of their skin is. We are all of the human race. The color of ones skin should not affect their spiritual ability to serve.

[lazarus]

I am not certain what "Dismantling the black conferences means".... Who would dismantle them?? I remember when there were NO black conferences. They were not forced upon anyone but were "demanded" by those they now serve. Regards, Don

I think the phrase was dismantling white/black conferences.

As usual folks don't seem to conviniently not understand the need or the reasons for Regional conferences. Its simple, because there were/are white conferences. They were demanded because of the racial problems that existed/exist in white conferences. Its not that diffucilts to understand. The SDA church suffered from the same problems that Methodists/ Baptists/ Church of Christ had as regards to race.

[nuff sed]

While I accept what you have to say, Lazarus, in the above posting, I cannot help but become a bit aggravated when the younger generation of Adventists ( or anyone else for that matter ) accuses the church of being racist "because "it" has separated the blacks from the whites"....... I wonder what color/culture we are all going to be in the earth made new??? Regards, Don

[lazarus]

While I accept what you have to say, Lazarus, in the above posting, I cannot help but become a bit aggravated when the younger generation of Adventists ( or anyone else for that matter ) accuses the church of being racist "because "it" has separated the blacks from the whites"....... I wonder what color/culture we are all going to be in the earth made new??? Regards, Don

I'm not sure I understand what you are saying.

Would you be less aggravated if an older Adventist said it? If so why? Clearly the SDA church in the US reflected cultural norms of the time. It didn't start the separation but it sertainly accepted it, supported it, even encouraged it in some ways. This is a ligitimate criticism of the SDA church by anyone of any generation.

I feel especially qualified being a black Pastor working in a White conference. I've said this before here. I now understand the need for black conferences!

What color are flowers going to be in heaven? My guess is that they're going to be all different colors. Diveresity is not a result of sin its part of Gods creativity and majesty.

[Woody]

Hey .... I am not into the "know" much about the Black / White thing in the church ... but I have been told and seen a few horrible things.

One is that the White leadership will not support churches that have a lot of Black membership. One example is here in Berrien Springs. There is a fairly large church with a wide variety of minorities. I attend it frequently when I am able to go to church. It is called the ALL NATIONS church. It's diversity is refreshing. All racial groups seem to be represented. But the Michigan Conf. from what I heard refused to support it so they had to get some kind of support from the Black Conf. Personally I have spoken to Board members about this information so I know it to be accurate.

I would propose that discrimination in the Michigan Conf. is not just with racial groups. They do not want to support any kind of outreach group that does not fit THEIR mold for a church. IF a group has a mission for young people for instance ... and they happen to have drums ... heaven forbid ... they would not get any support. For years the Indiana Conf. has sent "missionary" churches as outreach to Michigan to reach the postmodern world. The Michigan Conf. has not supported such outreach so Indiana has supported Pastors and churches in Michigan to do this.

Recently in the past few months ... Michigan has banned these missionaries from Indiana and told them to leave the state. The Indiana Conf. has had to remove their missionary Pastors.

So ... if you are talking about minorities or young people ... it doesn't make any difference in Michigan. Conservatives have killed many outreach opportunities in Michigan.

[olger]

Dear Redwood: If the Michigan leadership chose not to support the All Nations effort, I can only assume that there is a very good reason for that decision. Jay Galimore is a very dedicated president with clear vision for the Advent Movement.

Sam Pipim, Randy Skeete, and many others are working in Michigan to strengthen the Advent mission and message.

regards,

olger

[olger]

I am not certain what "Dismantling the black conferences means".... Who would dismantle them?? I remember when there were NO black conferences. They were not forced upon anyone but were "demanded" by those they now serve. Regards, Don

Hi Don. You are correct regarding the impetus of seperate conferences coming from the black community. Walter Wright told me this in 1989.

Sam Pipim (black pastor, aqccomplished theologian, BRI member) has suggested that it may be time to blend the conferences together. I would like to see it happen, to demonstrate that Christian brotherhood is mightier than carnal cultures.

lord bless,

gcw

[Woody]

Quote:

Jay Galimore is a very dedicated president with clear vision for the Advent Movement.

Sam Pipim, Randy Skeete, and many others are working in Michigan to strengthen the Advent mission and message.

I agree with you that they are working hard to strengthen THEIR brand of Adventism. You may agree with that brand or you may not.

Personally I reject the message of Jay Galimore and Sam Pipim. But... you chose whom you will serve.

[olger]

Hi Wood; I must confess mild confusion here. Would you be willing to tell me what your brand of Adventism is? Thanks in advance,

gcw

[lazarus]

Hi Don. You are correct regarding the impetus of seperate conferences coming from the black community. Walter Wright told me this in 1989.

so are you saying that the desire to form black conferences came from a carnal nature?

[olger]

I am indeed. White man has a number of these as well.

See Acts 6:1-7 for Biblical counsel regarding this.

regards,

olger

[Woody]

Quote:

I must confess mild confusion here.

I've been noticing your confusion.